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Author Topic: stat point allocation for the skill trees  (Read 2586 times)

Dias Flac

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stat point allocation for the skill trees
« on: April 23, 2017, 11:28:50 PM »

So you can rank up the 4 different trees to unlock different levels of skills in that respective tree. To make it less of a sunk cost I would argue for fleet wide passive buffs that comes with each rank of the skill trees.

To keep people from ranking up all the trees for their respective buffs I would say make each of the buffs contingent on the skills in the tree. Basically if you're only using one skill in the tree you'll get 10% of the buff whereas if you have multiple skill levels all throughout a respective tree you get more back from the skill point investment proportional to your points spent.

For me it would reinforce specialization and give more weight to focusing on a particular trees while rewarding me for infesting points into a skill tree. I wouldn't want the buffs to be OP but have them be enough to be an incentive to put points into a particular tree.

As far as which buffs would go to which tree someone smarter than me could probably argue for what would be best for balance.

I would want something to boost ordinance points, reduce fuel/supply costs, increase salvaging efficiency and so on. There's individual skills that already do these sort of things but I like stuff that stacks on top of other stuff.

tl;dr- Make skill point investments in trees give something back rather than be a prerequisite to learn skills in that tree.
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Megas

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Re: stat point allocation for the skill trees
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2017, 05:20:46 AM »

If more skills come, I simply want to see attributes abolished (or more skill points given).  It feels like there are too many skills and not enough skill points.  I will take Technology 3 and Combat 2 (or 3 if Helmsmanship perks get swapped) and the same four or so max skills for every character because the game is too slow paced without them.  (In case of Technology 3, either max Gunnery Implants for shot range and/or that +OP% skill to afford things like hangars for all big ships now that fighters are powerful and better than regenerating missiles.)  For me, that leaves either Leadership or Industry as my branch out skill.  Unless I plan to focus on a carrier flagship, Industry wins out.
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Dragon239

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Re: stat point allocation for the skill trees
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2017, 05:54:24 AM »

"To keep people from ranking up all the trees for their respective buffs I would say make each of the buffs contingent on the skills in the tree."

Is this really a problem? You're still putting points into the tree and not other things, so they have a cost.
If the aptitudes were to represent broad knowledges, it'd just mean you, say, have a very broad knowledge of "Leadership", but not anything specific or specialized (which is what the skills would mean). Doesn't seem like you have to double-up on that investment.
I suppose the reasoning that you'd want them contingent on putting more points into the tree is so you could make the benefits somewhat significant? Not sure if it's really necessary; would depend on execution.

The idea that the aptitudes should (again) grant small passives is a common one, though, so I hope it gets somewhere. Alex posted a response to it here http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=11477.msg202555#msg202555, with

"This is a tough one for me. Not having any bonus at all is a bit harsh, but it communicates the purpose much more clearly. If there was a tiny token bonus, I'm guessing there would be a number of threads to the tune of "aptitude X effect is underpowered".

Personally, I just wait until there's 2 points to spend, so I feel like I get something every time I spend points, whether it's for each point or not."

(Which while I could respond to that thread, this seems like a good thread to focus on the topic itself, as it's a big one)

To me, the idea that our game dev is actually waiting until there are 2 points to spend speaks that there's a problem here. That he does that is insane to me. Intentionally "ignoring" a level-up until you have 2 of them so the level-up is meaningful makes me think something is wrong. I really hope he agrees there and changes it.
And frankly, a few silly threads are a small price to pay to make the game feel better and people should be reading the descriptions of the aptitudes anyways. Or they'll just note that they serve as caps, and make the connection...so hopefully there won't be that many threads.

Megas suggests removing the aptitudes entirely. A somewhat interesting idea, but I just wonder how much "encouragement of specialization" we lose if we do that (certainly some), and if such encouragement is really necessary or beneficial to the game? There was an idea somewhere where it was suggested that certain content is gated based on your aptitudes (such as "analyze planet" missions don't even show up unless you have some level of Industry aptitude) and that could be interesting, but then you could just tie such things to actually having the Surveying skill directly, rendering the aptitude itself superfluous.
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Megas

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Re: stat point allocation for the skill trees
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2017, 06:04:56 AM »

Officers do not need aptitudes.  Of course, they only max at half level (20), but they can only take skills that help them alone.
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TJJ

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Re: stat point allocation for the skill trees
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2017, 09:23:05 AM »

Personally I'd like to see the skill tree be a .... tree. (or multiple trees)
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The Soldier

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Re: stat point allocation for the skill trees
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2017, 09:37:31 AM »

Aptitudes used to be that way, where they gave bonuses for the level they were - like how the Combat aptitude used to increase the maximum Combat Readiness of all ships.  Not quite sure why that kind of stuff was removed though.
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Embolism

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Re: stat point allocation for the skill trees
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2017, 09:45:40 AM »

Aptitudes used to be that way, where they gave bonuses for the level they were - like how the Combat aptitude used to increase the maximum Combat Readiness of all ships.  Not quite sure why that kind of stuff was removed though.

Because Alex thought it might spawn balance complaints about the attributes themselves rather than the skills they contain.

I don't think this is really an issue though. There were at most minor complaints about them when they did have bonuses, and as it is they feel very unsatisfying: like you're paying a gatekeeper to get at the juicy stuff. There needs to at least be an illusion you're actually gaining aptitude, rather than just paying a tax.
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Megas

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Re: stat point allocation for the skill trees
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2017, 10:38:46 AM »

Alex explained in a blog post something to the effect as a balance buffer.  If there is an overpowered level 3 perk in an aptitude you otherwise do not care about, you may think twice paying six skill points instead of three.  (That will not stop me from getting the speed I so desperately crave.)

There are too many skills and not quite enough points.
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Unreal_One

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Re: stat point allocation for the skill trees
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2017, 04:22:23 PM »

What if you started with one aptitude in each branch, and to increase your aptitude you had to spend, say, 3 skill points in that branch? It changes the cost for focusing a skill (down to 1 for level 1, stays at 4 for level 2, up to 7 for level 3), while making every skill point a meaningful improvement. Heck, you could even keep the first aptitude point as purchased if you want to make people think about it a bit more before going after a branch.
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Dias Flac

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Re: stat point allocation for the skill trees
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2017, 04:28:40 PM »

Aptitudes used to be that way, where they gave bonuses for the level they were - like how the Combat aptitude used to increase the maximum Combat Readiness of all ships.  Not quite sure why that kind of stuff was removed though.
There needs to at least be an illusion you're actually gaining aptitude, rather than just paying a tax.

I agree.

@Dragon239

Maybe I'm just bad but I want more QoL skills to make going into deep space less taxing. I can make ends meet well enough but I don't find it enjoyable with bigger fleets making things cost more.

@Megas

It may not be balanced but I'm sure there's some modders working on skill tree re balancing mods or skill point cap increase mods. I'm also waiting on some conquest style mods that let you capture planets and set up star bases and mining operations.

I could get multiple paragraphs of stuff together when it comes to base building.

@Unreal_One

I don't mind the investment angle I just want a return on that for the point used. A flat bonus seems to be too good of a return so that's why I was arguing to have other skills in the tree boost the bonuses the aptitude level in the OP.

I want every skill point to give some kind of return whether I invest in aptitude or a skill in the tree.
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Schwartz

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Re: stat point allocation for the skill trees
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2017, 09:21:45 PM »

I don't mind paying a tax. I mind the crazy arcade combat from 0.7.2 which was a result of too many buffs. The aptitudes could yield some very minor or fringe benefits, but tbh I'm fine with them being an investment rather than a reward.
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Zelnik

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Re: stat point allocation for the skill trees
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2017, 12:57:27 PM »

I think, ultimately, the biggest problem I have with the skill set up as we see it, is that certain things are simply impossible without dumping points. For example, if I want to be able to be a master salvager and great at combat too, I need to not put three into salvaging, I have to but three into the TREE and then three into the ability. Meanwhile I also have to put more into combat AND tech... there just isn't enough points to go around to let me build the sort of character that I want.
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