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Starsector 0.95a is out! (03/26/21); Blog post: Skill Changes, Part 2 (07/15/21)

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Author Topic: S-burn balance....  (Read 17892 times)

Midnight Kitsune

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Re: S-burn balance....
« Reply #45 on: April 24, 2017, 11:04:52 AM »

I wonder how many people will b**** once the AI DOES get S burn and now, once again, the AI will have a burn advantage over the player
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Thaago

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Re: S-burn balance....
« Reply #46 on: April 24, 2017, 11:20:37 AM »

Well, it will be easy to dodge, unlike e-burn, so it won't be too bad on the getting hunted down front.

Difficult to catch enemies that are doing long haul travel I guess... but then again if you know a 'shipping lane' you can just fly along in the opposite direction and scoop them up as they come.

I would like to try the game with the AI having S-burn at least.
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xenoargh

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Re: S-burn balance....
« Reply #47 on: April 24, 2017, 05:58:04 PM »

Please, do not nerf this.  For goodness sakes, it took a lot of the sheer boredom of Travel out of the game.
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nomadic_leader

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Re: S-burn balance....
« Reply #48 on: April 24, 2017, 06:33:40 PM »

* I 100% completely hate cheesy rule patches like "must be at a distant waypoint" and "only 20 degrees right or left" or other things. I don't even think that's necessary.

Whatever happens I agree with the above, Starsector tends a little too much in the direction of mysterious rules for balance as it is.

But it also really is a flawed, even decadent, view to say that tedium/boredom are always bad. It's like the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly-- the gunfight at the end is made more exciting because there's the scene of the guy running anticipatory circles in the cemetery to music for 5 minutes before it starts. It's a basic principle of aesthetics even-- you put something next to its opposite to make its own characteristics stand out more-- white next to black, tedium next to excitement. If the internet and call of duty have made people unable to grasp that then civilization is doomed.
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tinsoldier

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Re: S-burn balance....
« Reply #49 on: April 24, 2017, 07:05:37 PM »

Please, do not nerf this.  For goodness sakes, it took a lot of the sheer boredom of Travel out of the game.


This.

If anything is done, keep it minimal.  Who cares if the AI can't do it, it's a convenience for the player.  So many bigger fish to fry.
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Megas

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Re: S-burn balance....
« Reply #50 on: April 24, 2017, 07:37:59 PM »

The only good part about the standoff at the end of that western is the music.  Otherwise, it is like a drawn-out episode of DBZ where most of the episode is watching Cell or some other villain transforming and Goku and friends stare at the fireworks like idiots (instead of splattering the helpless villain).  Just shoot the dude now!  It is like Tuco not heeding his own advice (of shoot, don't talk), although that would not help him given Blondie's sneaky preparations.

P.S.  Also, the standoff is like a bad case of channel-surfing.  Blink, eyes, blink, eyes, blink, eyes for a long time, then it gets fast and they finally end the misery.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2017, 07:53:31 PM by Megas »
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nomadic_leader

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Re: S-burn balance....
« Reply #51 on: April 24, 2017, 07:51:56 PM »

The only good part about the standoff at the end of that western is the music.  Otherwise, it is like a drawn-out episode of DBZ where most of the episode is watching Cell or some other villain transforming and Goku and friends stare at the fireworks like idiots (instead of splattering the helpless villain).  Just shoot the dude now!  It is like Tuco not heeding his own advice (of shoot, don't talk), although that would not help him given Blondie's sneaky preparations.

I have no idea what this DBZ stuff is. Some millennial nonsense I'm sure :)

And as a connoisseur I prefer the director's cut edition where Tuco runs around in circles for 3 additional minutes while music plays!
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FooF

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Re: S-burn balance....
« Reply #52 on: April 24, 2017, 07:52:54 PM »

On the one hand, I love that S-burn trivializes the burn rating of everything. Even the slow-as-molasses capitals can get Burn 20 and I don't have to bring tugs. It saves a ton of time/supplies and really doesn't have a whole lot of downsides beyond really poor maneuvering and lowering sensors.

On the other, I hate that S-burn trivializes the burn rating of everything. It's no longer a meaningful stat when it was a god-stat prior and it made the different classes of ships distinct. With Level 3 Navigation, you can get any ship in the game up to 20 and that just feels "off."

So, I'm torn. It really makes the game faster but it's "game-y" itself.  ???
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Megas

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Re: S-burn balance....
« Reply #53 on: April 24, 2017, 07:59:53 PM »

I have no idea what this DBZ stuff is. Some millennial nonsense I'm sure :)
Dragonball Z, classic shonen anime of the '90s.  Was big deal at the time like Naruto was five to ten years ago.  Never watched more than a few re-run episodes about a decade ago.

These days, there is a lot of old anime merch like Pokémon, Sailor Moon, and DBZ in stores.
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Midnight Kitsune

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Re: S-burn balance....
« Reply #54 on: April 24, 2017, 11:53:32 PM »

The lack of a fast(er) travel system can put off ALOT of potential buyers. The incursion of S Burn is one of the best additions to SS. Without it, many would not do the surveying and exploring part just because of the tedium and boringness of it
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Schwartz

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Re: S-burn balance....
« Reply #55 on: April 25, 2017, 12:08:23 AM »

But s-burn wasn't necessary prior to 0.8. The sector was much smaller. I agree that it makes for a great mechanic, but it's just a little too versatile for non-travel use right now.

A couple of you guys didn't like the '20°' idea on the grounds of it being game-y. But is it really? I imagine the fleet will account for stellar objects in its flight path, calibrate the engines for power instead of maneuverability. It'd make sense if the fleet was more or less locked into a direction once the engines fired.
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Midnight Kitsune

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Re: S-burn balance....
« Reply #56 on: April 25, 2017, 12:15:15 AM »

But s-burn wasn't necessary prior to 0.8. The sector was much smaller. I agree that it makes for a great mechanic, but it's just a little too versatile for non-travel use right now.

A couple of you guys didn't like the '20°' idea on the grounds of it being game-y. But is it really? I imagine the fleet will account for stellar objects in its flight path, calibrate the engines for power instead of maneuverability. It'd make sense if the fleet was more or less locked into a direction once the engines fired.
I can see people having issues with this and reporting it as either a bug (sustained burn cuts out for no apparent reason) or a bad feature (Impossible to tell turn limits of S Burn)
And to make a counter point, to turn using S Burn, you could just as easily reduce the output of certain engines, making the ships turn to that side
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Schwartz

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Re: S-burn balance....
« Reply #57 on: April 25, 2017, 12:45:44 AM »

It could be shown visually with two degree markers. And how easily something can or can't be done under a different mode of drive operation.. I guess that's in the realm of game lore. I like the idea of 'lock-in' because it tailors it to its purpose and adds a bit of a hint about what it is - or what I imagine it is.

If you leave s-burn turning as it is now though, there's very little downside to just keeping it on 90% of the time. Making turning and start-up even slower could also work. Or limiting its use to hyperspace only (stellar collision danger, etc).
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Gothars

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Re: S-burn balance....
« Reply #58 on: April 25, 2017, 02:39:49 AM »

I don't think making S-burn only work in a line or with a limited angle of change would solve most of its problems. It would merely make it more inconvenient and it would take longer to line your "shot" up. You could still catch non-moving small fleets by burning straight at them, they don't have a chance to react. Or invade markets before the patrols notice you.

A slower deceleration, higher sensor profile and limiting initiating interactions (you could still be engaged) to slow speeds would be good, I think.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2017, 02:50:14 AM by Gothars »
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Re: S-burn balance....
« Reply #59 on: April 25, 2017, 03:15:39 AM »

I pretty much only use SB for hunting down AI and running from them and I'm kinda like abusing it.  If SB is significantly nerfed  I want some kind of fast travel to compensate.

Something like warp gates being short cuts or have the new SB fuel cost halved or even cut down to 1/3 to allow for less taxing hyperspace travel. I can definitely see SB being more of a long range tool rather than a short burst like I use abuse it.
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