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Author Topic: Ship balance feedback thread  (Read 2851 times)

whatdoesthisbuttondo

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Ship balance feedback thread
« on: March 07, 2017, 12:58:11 PM »

Since we have a dedicated thread for spriting, I thought I'd start one for the other half of the job,
the stats balancing against vanilla.

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I'll start off with a ship that currently has me stumped on where to go with it, it is a modified Wolf
frigate, intended to be kind of an elite raider variant refit.

The slot layout changed compared to the vanilla Wolf:

- 3 small turrets removed, and replaced with 1 medium energy (210 degree frontal arc)
- 2 small missile hardpoints changed to universal

The stats change compared to the vanilla Wolf:

fleet pts: 6 (+1)
ordnance: 45 (-5)
max flux: 2400 (+150)
dissipation: 165 (+15)
top speed: 165 (+15)
acceleration: 135 (+5)
deceleration: 110 (+10)
max turn: 65 (+5)
turn accel: 130 (+10)
shield arc: 120 (-30)
baseprice: 13500 (+1500)

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When compared against vanilla Wolf, it doesn't feel significantly stronger, in some respects even weaker, which is a good thing I guess.

The PD capability is, apart from mounting a heavy burst PD in the medium turret (good enough in 1v1 or 1v2), pretty much gone, no
more IPDAI tac lasers, while it gains the ability to mount a fully dedicated tac laser / graviton harassment fit (works nicely in packs, but
then again, what doesn't?).

A normal heavy blaster / graviton / harpoon combo performs as one would expect from a similar vanilla Wolf fit, maybe a tad bit better.

Flux stats and armor do not really allow for a dedicated effective close range energy fit, and close-range HE projectile configurations
share that issue somewhat.

Both of the above are still options, but overall having the hardpoints universals isn't that big of a deal, missile/energy would suffice I guess,
but I kinda like the theme of side-mounted machine guns for the ship.


Edit: Some more in-game testing, and I've found railguns combined with the forward-leap ability of the phase skimmer do make the universal
hardpoints a pretty big deal together with a heavy hitter or ion pulser in the frontal hardpoint.

Overall, I feel like it is in a good place already balance-wise, but needs a little something to spice it up.

Having the medium turret hybrid I think would be over the top regarding flexibility, I've been thinking about 'soft' bonus like say
built-in phase field hullmod to reduce the sensor profile.

Would make little difference in combat, but fit nicely with the raider theme.

Thoughts? Maybe ideas for variants I didn't think of that are issues balance wise, or stat changes that could give it a little
extra?
« Last Edit: March 07, 2017, 03:29:57 PM by whatdoesthisbuttondo »
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AxleMC131

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Re: Ship balance feedback thread
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2017, 02:18:51 PM »

First off, great idea for a thread! :D I'm super-fond of well balanced stuff, and I might find myself using this from time to time...

*Ahem* Okay, about this raider Wolf of yours. Loving the idea of it, I assume Raiders =/= Pirates from the tech level your ship seems to be maintaining. The initial lack of rear-facing point defence is a great balance for any buffs you give the ship over the vanilla Wolf, so that's a good start. Even with the Phase Skimmer, dodging lots of missiles can become a chore very quickly - especially with your narrowed shield arc.

Giving the ship a Phase Field hullmod seems a little odd personally. I always think of it as something that only Phase-capable ships can do, but since the Wolf has the Phase Skimmer... What do I know? Maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea. Alternatively, something like High Resolution Sensors, or even a built-in Insulated Engine Assembly would make a good raiding vessel - something that gives it an ability to lie in ambush and/or spy on a target without being seen.

I assume btw that this raider Wolf has the same number of ordnance points as the vanilla Wolf? I always think of the number of ordnance points a vessel has available as a direct representation of its immediate "Customizability", which I feel can really define a ship in the campaign especially.
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whatdoesthisbuttondo

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Re: Ship balance feedback thread
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2017, 03:40:24 PM »

*Ahem* Okay, about this raider Wolf of yours. Loving the idea of it, I assume Raiders =/= Pirates from the tech level your ship seems to be maintaining. The initial lack of rear-facing point defence is a great balance for any buffs you give the ship over the vanilla Wolf, so that's a good start. Even with the Phase Skimmer, dodging lots of missiles can become a chore very quickly - especially with your narrowed shield arc.

Yea, the theme wouldn't really be all-out pirate (though I imagine the occasional privateering being on the table for the faction), more along the lines of generally being somewhat at odds with whatever consense of law the sector still has, e.g. smuggling, gun-for-hire etc.

The lack of point defense does work out rather well indeed, especially salamanders are really a pain here.

Giving the ship a Phase Field hullmod seems a little odd personally. I always think of it as something that only Phase-capable ships can do, but since the Wolf has the Phase Skimmer... What do I know? Maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea. Alternatively, something like High Resolution Sensors, or even a built-in Insulated Engine Assembly would make a good raiding vessel - something that gives it an ability to lie in ambush and/or spy on a target without being seen.

Yea, high res sensors was another idea I initially dismissed, thinking again that might indeed fit a high-tech non-phase vessel a lot better. Good point about the insulated engine assembly, that didn't occur to me, but you're right, that would make for a good hullmod in campaign map and fit the theme.

Might even consider combining the two, but I guess that would mean lowering some other stats in return and possibly shaving off 2 OP or so.

I assume btw that this raider Wolf has the same number of ordnance points as the vanilla Wolf? I always think of the number of ordnance points a vessel has available as a direct representation of its immediate "Customizability", which I feel can really define a ship in the campaign especially.

Woops, seems I missed a rather important thing  :o

OP are down 5, to compensate for the fact that I generally consider 1 medium = 2 small mounts as far as OP are considered. Updated the post.
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Thaago

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Re: Ship balance feedback thread
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2017, 04:00:36 PM »

I suspect your Wolf will be significantly more powerful than the base Wolf because you have given it slots that can support ballistic weapons. 165 speed with a phase skimmer, needlers, and a strong shield will be a horrifically effective kiting machine.
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Wyvern

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Re: Ship balance feedback thread
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2017, 04:07:02 PM »

Lessee, fitting that for AI use at low skill levels, I'd go with 2x light needler, 1x tactical laser (front hardpoint), 1x burst pd (heavy burst pd is overkill and too expensive anyway), extended shields, unstable injector, 3 capacitors, everything else into flux vents.  Should be pretty good at tying up enemy forces without dying, which is all I really ever ask of an AI wingman.

As you get higher levels of skill, add more flux vents, eventually replace the tactical laser with a graviton beam, maybe add in expanded magazines for better PD.

For player use... hm.  Railguns, phase beam, same burst pd in the turret, still want unstable injector, can drop the extended shields to make room for actually still having flux vents.  That sounds like a pretty solid little ship.  At higher player levels, when you've got max vents and resistant flux conduits and some capacitors, consider swapping the phase beam for a heavy blaster.  Though getting the more flux-efficient and longer-range light needlers in would likely be a higher priority.

Definitely much stronger than a regular wolf, almost entirely due to being able to mount ballistic weapons; I'd probably put the price tag at more like 18,000, maybe even 20k.  That said, the wolf is very much not the best combat frigate out there, so I don't think this sort of ship is really out of line balance-wise.
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Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

AxleMC131

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Re: Ship balance feedback thread
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2017, 04:11:38 PM »

I assume btw that this raider Wolf has the same number of ordnance points as the vanilla Wolf? I always think of the number of ordnance points a vessel has available as a direct representation of its immediate "Customizability", which I feel can really define a ship in the campaign especially.

Woops, seems I missed a rather important thing  :o

OP are down 5, to compensate for the fact that I generally consider 1 medium = 2 small mounts as far as OP are considered. Updated the post.

Ah, fair enough. XD That's usually what my rule is as well; each weapon slot size is equal to two of the one smaller. It works with the game's approximate average ordnance point cost of weapons at each size too (5, 10, 20).


I suspect your Wolf will be significantly more powerful than the base Wolf because you have given it slots that can support ballistic weapons. 165 speed with a phase skimmer, needlers, and a strong shield will be a horrifically effective kiting machine.

Aye, but you have to remember that the stat increases in the OP are minor, and we're talking about a Wolf (which has oversized weapons for its powerplant anyway) with little or no point defence. It might be more tough in terms of offensive weapons, but with the additional medium weapon slot - and the possibility of non-missile secondaries - it's going to generate flux a whole lot faster than a vanilla Wolf. This is a ship that will require a very regimented play-style.
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