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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 639089 times)

Cyan Leader

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #600 on: April 13, 2017, 02:20:33 PM »

You can always make sensor range shorter in a future hard mode.
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Deshara

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #601 on: April 13, 2017, 02:22:54 PM »

  • Second ship: Kite with officer

Alex confirmed loves me irl
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Gothars

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #602 on: April 13, 2017, 02:29:29 PM »

Finally, a real purpose for auxiliary ships! I can't remember the last time I had a tanker in my fleet, and freighters were only relevant for traders. Very nice.


The changes to the sensor mechanics are promising, it was really too opaque. It's a little bit strange that 5 frigates now have the same profile as 30 frigates, but it shouldn't matter much in practice.

Have you considered getting rid of fleet-variable sensor strength altogether (with only environmental reduction remaining)? It would allow to display the absolute range at which your fleet will be detected in various states (dark, burning) and makes thinks very clear. Small fleets would always detect big fleets first, but I can't think of a reason why that would be bad at the moment. I'm probably missing something :D


Oh man, I'm excited for this! Just a little bit longer...

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The game was completed 8 years ago and we get a free expansion every year.

Arranging holidays in an embrace with the Starsector is priceless.

Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #603 on: April 13, 2017, 02:49:39 PM »

The changes to the sensor mechanics are promising, it was really too opaque. It's a little bit strange that 5 frigates now have the same profile as 30 frigates, but it shouldn't matter much in practice.

Sensor math: one frigate, two frigates, three frigates, four frigates, many frigates :)

Have you considered getting rid of fleet-variable sensor strength altogether (with only environmental reduction remaining)? It would allow to display the absolute range at which your fleet will be detected in various states (dark, burning) and makes thinks very clear. Small fleets would always detect big fleets first, but I can't think of a reason why that would be bad at the moment. I'm probably missing something :D

Thought about it, yeah. It gets weird with sensor bonus/penalty ships, and if you have any of that, then you basically have the two numbers. May be worth it in the end, though, not entirely decided on it one way or the other.
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SCC

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #604 on: April 13, 2017, 02:55:27 PM »

freighters were only relevant for traders.
I've used freighters many times when bounty-hunting since sometimes I'm overburdened with all that loot. It only gets worse when privateering.

facc00

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #605 on: April 13, 2017, 02:56:45 PM »

Did I miss a download link somewhere?
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orost

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #606 on: April 13, 2017, 03:00:16 PM »

What if all ships contributed to sensor profile but only top 5 to sensor strength?

It makes perfect sense that stacking more of the same quality sensors will get you only so far, but it doesn't make sense that stacking more identical ships will stop making them easier to detect as a group. This is not an appeal to realism, I just think this is one of those situations where making it simpler will actually make it more difficult to understand, because it diverges too far from default expectations that are based on reality.

This will of course remove the symmetry that always makes two fleets detect each other at the same time, regardless of size, if neither have special modifiers. But I've never understood why that is a good thing anyway. Why shouldn't a smaller fleet have a stealth advantage over a bigger fleet? I might be missing something, but isn't that what stealth is for?
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AxleMC131

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #607 on: April 13, 2017, 03:04:11 PM »

Did I miss a download link somewhere?

Nah, it's not released yet. Just another set of changelog notes. But it'll be out soon undoubtedly!
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Gothars

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #608 on: April 13, 2017, 03:05:27 PM »

Sensor math: one frigate, two frigates, three frigates, four frigates, many frigates :)

 ;D


Thought about it, yeah. It gets weird with sensor bonus/penalty ships, and if you have any of that, then you basically have the two numbers. May be worth it in the end, though, not entirely decided on it one way or the other.

Oh nice, so I'm not just confused!

Well, to have a mechanic just so some entities can give a bonus to it seems a bit backwards, no? Alternative bonus for high res sensor could be earlier identification of unidentified fleets or less sensor penalty from environments.


Did I miss a download link somewhere?

No download yet, just a last patchnote update.

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The game was completed 8 years ago and we get a free expansion every year.

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Cik

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #609 on: April 13, 2017, 03:06:36 PM »

it really doesn't make any sense that sensor "strength" scales with ship size. sensor strength should scale with ship technological sophistication. ECM/EW capability can scale with the size of your powerplant, but sensors require very little power generally, compared to the massive amount any starship is going to produce.

to put it another way without muh realism

if a wolf has 1 sensor of X strength, and an onslaught has 500 sensors at X strength, that doesn't actually mean the onslaught sees better. it just means that the onslaught can see the same area at the same strength. what matters is the strength of the sensor, not how many there are. pooling sensors doesn't actually increase their strength, it just allows the onslaught to see around it's own hull.

« Last Edit: April 13, 2017, 03:10:58 PM by Cik »
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orost

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #610 on: April 13, 2017, 03:10:50 PM »

Bigger ship means bigger arrays / apertures / receivers / whatever they have. Regardless of how sensors operate generally larger size improves both resolution and sensitivity. That's why astronomers keep building bigger and bigger telescopes.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2017, 03:25:01 PM by orost »
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Thaago

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #611 on: April 13, 2017, 03:14:17 PM »

Quote
High Resolution Sensors give a flat +60 to sensor strength

Is this to the ship, or to the fleet?

Example: Say I have 5 capitals, each with 150 sensor strength. Does my frigate with 30 strength and High Resolution sensors do anything?
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Cik

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #612 on: April 13, 2017, 03:14:54 PM »

if you are trying to detect a galaxy billions of LY away maybe. by your logic an aircraft carrier is going to have the biggest sensor in the fleet, which, no. if you have a sensor designed for warfare it's strength chiefly relies on technical sophistication, followed by the attributes of the mounting platform, it has nothing to do with size.
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orost

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #613 on: April 13, 2017, 03:27:12 PM »

Of course an aircraft carrier has the biggest and best sensors in a fleet, why do you think they have those huge radar domes on them? ???

And even if an Onslaught has just more sensors, not bigger ones, that still helps. Two sensors can detect a signal half as strong as one sensor, and with interferometry, even resolution can be improved if the relative position of sensors can be held precisely enough.

(I was going to write more, but this is getting a bit off-topic).

I do agree that tech level should be a factor in sensor quality though.
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #614 on: April 13, 2017, 03:29:29 PM »

What if all ships contributed to sensor profile but only top 5 to sensor strength?

It makes perfect sense that stacking more of the same quality sensors will get you only so far, but it doesn't make sense that stacking more identical ships will stop making them easier to detect as a group. This is not an appeal to realism, I just think this is one of those situations where making it simpler will actually make it more difficult to understand, because it diverges too far from default expectations that are based on reality.

This will of course remove the symmetry that always makes two fleets detect each other at the same time, regardless of size, if neither have special modifiers. But I've never understood why that is a good thing anyway. Why shouldn't a smaller fleet have a stealth advantage over a bigger fleet? I might be missing something, but isn't that what stealth is for?

Mechanics-wise, having all ships contribute to either stat linearly is not viable. Either ships don't contribute an individually impactful amount, or the number gets too high on the high end of fleet size.

Also: while I see your point, I think there's also a simplicty to having the same set of rules for each stat, rather than two different ones, even if one of those two is simpler.


Well, to have a mechanic just so some entities can give a bonus to it seems a bit backwards, no? Alternative bonus for high res sensor could be earlier identification of unidentified fleets or less sensor penalty from environments.

An excellent point. But then for those specific alternate uses, there'd have to be a similar kind of formula to make sure a range of ships can contribute to it without making the results unreasonable (i.e. how much better is 2x Apogee vs 1x Apogee? etc). Well, I don't know. It bears more thought - will definitely leave it as-is for now, though.


it really doesn't make any sense that sensor "strength" scales with ship size. sensor strength should scale with ship technological sophistication. ECM/EW capability can scale with the size of your powerplant, but sensors require very little power generally, compared to the massive amount any starship is going to produce.

to put it another way without muh realism

if a wolf has 1 sensor of X strength, and an onslaught has 500 sensors at X strength, that doesn't actually mean the onslaught sees better. it just means that the onslaught can see the same area at the same strength. what matters is the strength of the sensor, not how many there are. pooling sensors doesn't actually increase their strength, it just allows the onslaught to see around it's own hull.

Just a general note: if one looks for reasons why something "doesn't make sense", one can *always* find them. So, that's not actually terribly interesting - it's always a few thoughts away, for any mechanic. It feels much more reasonable to find reasons for why things *do* make sense - these are also very easy to find, there are many, and I personally find it more interesting.

Some quick examples for sensors, without necessarily saying that's how things work in-universe:

- Sensors could be bound by computational power, with larger ships naturally having more cpu cores available to process the results. Pooling computational resources across multiple ships has benefits but also limits.
- Sensors could  operate at FTL speed, making the underlying principles, well, just about anything. It could well be that spreading multiple sensors wider could give more range.

Etc etc. I mean, it's totally reasonable to say "it doesn't make sense to me", but not an absolute "it doesn't make sense". You're choosing to make a set of arbitrary assumptions that make it not make sense, if that makes sense :) Which is fine! But that's not the same as it not making sense in some absolute sense. Ahem.

Quote
High Resolution Sensors give a flat +60 to sensor strength

Is this to the ship, or to the fleet?

Example: Say I have 5 capitals, each with 150 sensor strength. Does my frigate with 30 strength and High Resolution sensors do anything?

The frigate will do nothing in that situation.


I do agree that tech level should be a factor in sensor quality though.

I could see that, but I just really don't think the mechanic needs to get more detailed here. An extra +/-10 on various hulls for little actual impact just doesn't feel like a worthwhile thing to have the player trying to optimize. As it stands, this is reflected by certain high-tech ships having High-Res Sensors.
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