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Author Topic: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 642396 times)

DragoonKiller

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1230 on: April 25, 2017, 09:38:30 PM »

If it's in a nebula, it's not going to be orbiting anything.

That's to say it can be placed anywhere not too close to the center of the nebula system? Or just anywhere in system?
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Mattk50

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1231 on: April 25, 2017, 10:10:36 PM »

been awhile since i've played, in this new patch im still not a fan of the skill system existing despite improvements. in a game like this it truly just makes the entire experience worse. Hey guy, pick between guns that shoot straight, ships that dont lose readyness mid fight and ability to do fun industry stuff! whats that, you're bored already and don't want to have to mod the game because it messes up the balance? Nah, just remember your ships, weapons, hull, literally everything functons completely differently in arbitrary ways because you decided to spend a skillpoint in combat instead of somewhere else.

same with peak readyness, added to balance out gamey teleports and similar uneccassry ultra kiting abilities on ships that could already kite very well, just a chain of poor design decisions. This is alex's game to develop as he wishes of course im just so dissapointed at the direction it's gone in some places, while in some other places the game feels and plays fantastic and has come a long way.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2017, 10:17:07 PM by Mattk50 »
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ANGRYABOUTELVES

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1232 on: April 25, 2017, 10:43:48 PM »

The autofit system doesn't put the redacted fighters on carriers, even if the variant you tell it to use has redacted fighters in it. I.e if you make an Astral variant with 4 Flash Bombers and 2 Lux Heavy Fighters, the autofit will leave all the fighter slots empty rather than put redacted fighters on the carrier.
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TaLaR

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1233 on: April 25, 2017, 10:53:48 PM »

been awhile since i've played, in this new patch im still not a fan of the skill system existing despite improvements. in a game like this it truly just makes the entire experience worse. Hey guy, pick between guns that shoot straight, ships that dont lose readyness mid fight and ability to do fun industry stuff! whats that, you're bored already and don't want to have to mod the game because it messes up the balance? Nah, just remember your ships, weapons, hull, literally everything functons completely differently in arbitrary ways because you decided to spend a skillpoint in combat instead of somewhere else.

In 0.72 I could get pretty much all skills I wanted. Now a specialization is required.

1st branching point is whether you take Industry. It offers very little in terms of end-game fleet performance, but gives you tons of money early and dramatically increases progression speed.

2nd is whether you take Leadership. Not taking it pretty much means going for Solo or small fleet strategy, since you'll have only 4 officers. I don't think Solo is viable in 0.8 though. Single Onslaught doesn't feel anywhere as powerful as it was in 0.72. And AI has become much more competent at avoiding it.

3rd optional branching point is Carrier - Direct combat (if you already chose Leadership). You have to choose early and stick to one. If you chose Carrier, ignoring Technology is an option (otherwise flux and range skills are too important, not having +10% OP always hurts though).

Then you have a batch of lesser decisions of what to cut. Unless you go for Solo-centric play, you can't get all relevant combat skills.

I ignored Industry and went for mix of other 3 trees, with focus on direct combat and moderate fleet size (8 officers, 1st levels in both Coordinated Maneuvers and Electronic Warfare).

same with peak readyness, added to balance out gamey teleports and similar uneccassry ultra kiting abilities on ships that could already kite very well, just a chain of poor design decisions. This is alex's game to develop as he wishes of course im just so dissapointed at the direction it's gone in some places, while in some other places the game feels and plays fantastic and has come a long way.

CR system in it's current evolved form is excellent decision by Alex. It does exactly what intended - limits boring slow play-styles and forces player to optimize for time spent (as opposed to ultimate result only).
It's interaction with time manipulating ships (phase and Scarab) is also awesome.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2017, 10:55:50 PM by TaLaR »
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ANGRYABOUTELVES

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1234 on: April 26, 2017, 12:48:31 AM »

The fleet fuel range circles on the hyperspace map do not take into account the Level 2 Navigation bonus. As you travel, the circles will move in the same direction you're moving, "extending" your range.
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Histidine

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1235 on: April 26, 2017, 06:35:03 AM »

Is there a particular technique to using the Neutrino Detector? Every time I use it, the signals are either like "yeah, there's a planet in that direction" or obviously false.
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orost

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1236 on: April 26, 2017, 07:16:58 AM »

Fly at a right angle to the signals, if they shift direction, they're real, if they don't, they're false positives, because false positives come from a constant direction at infinity.
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1237 on: April 26, 2017, 08:02:36 AM »

been awhile since i've played, in this new patch im still not a fan of the skill system existing despite improvements. in a game like this it truly just makes the entire experience worse. Hey guy, pick between guns that shoot straight, ships that dont lose readyness mid fight and ability to do fun industry stuff! whats that, you're bored already and don't want to have to mod the game because it messes up the balance? Nah, just remember your ships, weapons, hull, literally everything functons completely differently in arbitrary ways because you decided to spend a skillpoint in combat instead of somewhere else.

In 0.72 I could get pretty much all skills I wanted. Now a specialization is required.

1st branching point is whether you take Industry. It offers very little in terms of end-game fleet performance, but gives you tons of money early and dramatically increases progression speed.

2nd is whether you take Leadership. Not taking it pretty much means going for Solo or small fleet strategy, since you'll have only 4 officers. I don't think Solo is viable in 0.8 though. Single Onslaught doesn't feel anywhere as powerful as it was in 0.72. And AI has become much more competent at avoiding it.

3rd optional branching point is Carrier - Direct combat (if you already chose Leadership). You have to choose early and stick to one. If you chose Carrier, ignoring Technology is an option (otherwise flux and range skills are too important, not having +10% OP always hurts though).

Then you have a batch of lesser decisions of what to cut. Unless you go for Solo-centric play, you can't get all relevant combat skills.

I ignored Industry and went for mix of other 3 trees, with focus on direct combat and moderate fleet size (8 officers, 1st levels in both Coordinated Maneuvers and Electronic Warfare).
Aside from easy money in early-game, Industry is useful if you want rely on damaged ships as your fleet backbone.  If you go without commission, you cannot buy very much and recovering ships is the easiest way to get rare ships.  Also, damaged ships cost less to deploy, sometimes significantly less.  It also has that nice half malfunction cutoff, but I am not sure that is very useful for those who deploy big fleets (although it is useful for Safety Override ships or anything with damaged/degraded subsystems.)  If you rely on damaged ships, then that perk that halves all penalties from damaged mods is very nice.

I see Leadership primarily as the officer and carrier tree.  I do not know if I can be bothered leveling officers since I need to save scum more if I do not want carrier skills (or want to focus on them) on the officer.  That leaves carriers (and campaign convenience features).  I doubt the player can afford both brawling and carriers - there are not enough skill points.  So far, it is much harder to solo.  Recently, I put points into speed and shot range (but still no ITU), had a Wolf solo SIM Hammerhead.  Before 0.8, it was an easy wipe.  Now, it is much harder.  For destroyers, I have more success with a skilled Hammerhead armed with long ranged weapons (Mauler, HVD, Tac Laser) against bigger ships or skilled Drover with fighters against small ships.  Enforcer is too slow and shield is bad, and Medusa lacks shot range and is not fast enough to dominate more elite small ships.  Remnant frigates are a pain to kill with Medusa (although it may be much better with Converted Hangar, but I have not obtained that yet).  Drover with Talon and Claw wings wipe them.

Technology is great for everyone.  Gunnery Implants is good for all except maybe pure missile boats (like Gryphon).  Even carriers may want extra shot range to snipe at enemies with needlers or HVD so that the fighters finish off the now shield-less target.  Also, Loadout Design is very nice, especially for carriers.  Carriers will need the extra OP if it wants to use fighters aside from Talons (or Recovery Shuttles to mitigate crew loss).  If a normal ship wants to have a wing of fighters, and that is a very good idea with current game balance, it will need the extra OP to afford that without giving up too much.

The thing most irritating about solo play is the time it takes to win.  The main reasons to solo during the 0.6x is either you had too few Logistics or your fleet was full of Atlases (looting fleets up to 0.62, exploiting cash cow/xp food runs in 0.65).  In 0.7x, the reason to solo is endgame fleets outnumbered you, sometimes overwhelming so, and if you were outnumbered enough, your AI ships would die.  Also, supply consumption.

I have the feeling that if I want to attempt to solo fleets with one conventional ship, I probably need to sink every last point in all the relevant combat boosting skills and ignore every campaign relevant skill in the game.  It probably is not worth it.  It probably would not save my ship from getting swarmed by a bunch of small fry and getting mauled.  In 0.7x, frigate hordes were the most dangerous threat, but bigger ships had a chance.  I doubt they do now.

It seems carriers and fighters are very powerful, and if I want to solo fleets, my best bet is to pick a good carrier, get the best fighter skills, and enough combat ability to support fighters with long-range kinetics.  That said, I have not found Hyperion yet, nor have I progressed far enough to afford a capital.  However, I am not sure if I want to haul a capital much unless I want to kill townsfolk or prepare for Remnant battlestation invasion.

In any event, fleet action is probably the most powerful option, and mitigating those costs would be very nice.  So far, Industry seems the most attractive because I can recover ships, arm them with junk, pay pennies for deployment, and not fuss over a casualty (i.e., reload game as soon as I lose a ship).  If the maluses are pain, then I guess I can get that level 3 perk that halves the penalties.  At that point, weapon and crew replacements are probably the bottlenecks.

Now, Starsector feels like Endless Sky.  In Endless Sky, you could solo enemies if you want to, but it is so much easier to smash things with a dozen or so heavy warships (unless player captures the Pug Arfecta godship).  Here, with minor skill bonuses for solo ships, it is probably better to get skills that help everyone (or make the campaign easier) and rely on a big enough fleet for firepower.

Missiles are weak.  Salamanders are unreliable.  Now, if I want missiles on a big ship, I want Converted Hangar.  Fighters are missiles, and those missiles shoot more missiles, and some of those missiles actually hurt things!  As for those that cannot use a hangar, missiles may be a "Why Not" option and get mounted as filler.

One more comment about 0.8 for now:  This is the first version that features significant non-renewable resources.  You survey planets, they are done, no more.  You loot wrecks, they are gone.  You kill Remnants, they (may) be gone (not sure about that).  If the player plays long enough to suck the whole dungeon dry, he would be left with bounties or factions in town to kill.
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TaLaR

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1238 on: April 26, 2017, 08:53:42 AM »

@Megas
Industry can help you run D-mod fleet, sure. But by endgame Fleet I meant maximum amount of power that can be packed into single deployment, free from economic constraints.

D-ships don't have DP cost discount, they only cost less supplies to recover after battle. Using them trades combat effectiveness for logistic benefit. So I obviously don't want any of that in endgame fleet.
Also recovering them multiple times will keep accumulating D-mods to point of uselessness (as far as I understand, haven't tried). It makes losses hurt less, but doesn't make them free.
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1239 on: April 26, 2017, 09:09:10 AM »

I do not know how easy it is to get money at endgame.  Maybe it is easy.  Currently, I am in about midgame, and I am hunting bounties and I do not profit much unless I can kill two or more next to each other because of fuel and supply expenses.  Just recently, I put most of my fleet into storage and take Domain probe scan missions with a frigate and a tanker because there was no bounty good enough for the expenses.  If I got Surveying 3, the game would go much faster, but then I would not have the skill points I need for my endgame fleet.  Now if Salvaging is good to get more special loot like Sparks wings, and there is no other way to get them, I may highly desire that skill.  Otherwise, I will pass.

With max battle size, DP cost is not much of a problem.  There is a skill that reduces maintenance for (D) ships, but that seems insignificant compared to Fleet Logistics one, and I have Leadership 1 for Coordinated Maneuvers at least.  Six officers would be good except I cannot be bothered save scumming excessively to get the skills I want on them.

Quote
So I obviously don't want any of that in endgame fleet.
True, although if the game is hard enough, I do not want to reload the game every time I lose a ship.  The main reason is not logistics benefit, but anti-frustration.  EDIT:  Although deployment costs are significant to me at the moment (in midgame).  If I cannot solo fleets with one elite ship, then I can try to gang up on fleets with multiple clunkers that cost as much as one elite ship.

Quote
Also recovering them multiple times will keep accumulating D-mods to point of uselessness (as far as I understand, haven't tried). It makes losses hurt less, but doesn't make them free.
Not free, but if there is a limit, then simply hurt less enough that it does not matter much.  Sure, I want an elite ship I want to pilot, but the AI can just take a bunch of clunkers, die, and I will not care because there is more where the clunkers came from.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2017, 09:23:35 AM by Megas »
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CrashToDesktop

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1240 on: April 26, 2017, 09:31:32 AM »

@Megas
Have you actually sat down and maybe thought about how you might proceed throughout the campaign?  You appear to be dead-set in old ways from the previous patch.  Take a moment and ponder this: use officers.  They can't get the fleet-wide logistical, technology, and industrial skills, but what they can get are the individual combat skills from all these categories.  The player can control 4 officers from the start without investing in anything special.  You're a god damn min-maxer, you should have realized this by now - let your officers do the fighting while you take on the fleet-wide bonuses and salvage and exploration.  I'll leave it at that, if you can't figure out what to do from there, then you don't really deserve to be called as such.

Yes, I sound vaguely annoyed because you clearly haven't bothered looking deeply into stuff other than "only shoot stuff if I get paid".
« Last Edit: April 26, 2017, 09:36:39 AM by The Soldier »
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1241 on: April 26, 2017, 09:36:23 AM »

The autofit system doesn't put the redacted fighters on carriers, even if the variant you tell it to use has redacted fighters in it. I.e if you make an Astral variant with 4 Flash Bombers and 2 Lux Heavy Fighters, the autofit will leave all the fighter slots empty rather than put redacted fighters on the carrier.

Thanks, was reported a bit earlier and is fixed for the next release. Appreciate the report, though!

The fleet fuel range circles on the hyperspace map do not take into account the Level 2 Navigation bonus. As you travel, the circles will move in the same direction you're moving, "extending" your range.

Took a look - I think this is working properly. The outer range expands when you take Nav 2, and stays at the same spot as you travel. The inner range shows how far you can go and still return to where you are at that moment, and since that changes as you move, the inner circle will move too.
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TaLaR

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1242 on: April 26, 2017, 09:37:56 AM »

Now if Salvaging is good to get more special loot like Sparks wings, and there is no other way to get them, I may highly desire that skill. Otherwise, I will pass.

Can't say I fought particularly a lot of REDACTED, but I did fight some. No shiny fighters :( .  So that is a valid consideration for taking Salvage skills.

Quote
Also recovering them multiple times will keep accumulating D-mods to point of uselessness (as far as I understand, haven't tried). It makes losses hurt less, but doesn't make them free.
Not free, but if there is a limit, then simply hurt less enough that it does not matter much.  Sure, I want an elite ship I want to pilot, but the AI can just take a bunch of clunkers, die, and I will not care because there is more where the clunkers came from.

Not sure if pyrrhic victories are sustainable. You'll still lose some weapons and recovery/repair will also eat a lot supplies. Then you again, you loot more of both too...
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1243 on: April 26, 2017, 09:48:18 AM »

@ The_Soldier: Please do not presume too much.

I am playing as I go because of all of the changes.

I have officers, but I have not leveled them up because I have not decided what to do with them yet, and if I want a generalist to plug into any ship, I do not want specialist carrier skills rammed down my throat time after time.  The few times I tried leveling up, the game kept spitting carrier skills I did not want, and I gave up.  Currently, I am not in the mood to scum-grind-reload much.

Most of my fights have been with a fleet.  I cannot solo fleets with a (mostly) unskilled ship.  Honestly, my character who is approaching level 30 has no skill points spent, so far.  I tried skills in the simulator, but I do not see a way I can solo fleets if I divide my skills between the combat skills I want and campaign and fleet-friendly skills that are very convenient.  It hurts not having Surveying 3 to get the easy money.  I am seeing how far I can go without skills (just so I can play with things in the sim later), and I manage so far, but things are getting hard.  Also, I have not obtained the top-tier ships and hullmods, so even if soloing appears impossible, it may not be if I acquire the best stuff.

I have not spent too much time playing the campaign either.  That is why I am still in midgame instead endgame like others are.
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1244 on: April 26, 2017, 10:02:53 AM »

@ Talar:  The idea is if I will lose ships anyway (and I do not want to reload), better to lose clunkers that are nearly as good as normal ships than elite ships that cost too much to replace or restore.  I doubt I can overpower fleets like I did in the past.  I do not want to [R]estore every ship I lose.  If I go without commission, I just cannot go to the local market and buy another cruiser so easily.  Admittedly, that means I need to settle for more low-grade weapons because I cannot replace things like needlers so easily either.
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