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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Cartography  (Read 66996 times)

Az the Squishy

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #105 on: November 30, 2016, 09:32:19 PM »

Perhaps off topic as well or more on topic... Would it be possible to "seed" a number of Modded factions into the generation sequnce? And could it be limited within the mods files to a certian ammount/sereis of attributes? I think that'd be a great thing to know myself.

It'd make ensureing some places were populated with more that just hegemony/Tritachyon/Nueturals/etc  if you had a modded game. That and I'm curious if that'd be possible. i'm thinking it should be...
If it was stated or informed within the thread, my bad folks!

CrashToDesktop

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #106 on: November 30, 2016, 09:57:12 PM »

That's bound to result in some false positives, unfortunately. Plus it's a new control :)
Don't think it's necessarily a "new control" because it's not like you have to lift your hand from what it's already on (like, guaranteed to be on).  Otherwise something like this would be pretty much impossible to implement without a new control.

Also, double-clicking is like opening a folder in Windows.  Sure, you're not under any stress trying to dodge a fleet full of Enforcers that just disengaged their cloaking devices, but the same principle applies.  Don't think you get very many false-positives from that. :)
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Alex

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #107 on: November 30, 2016, 10:43:30 PM »

Hey Alex, could you share with us how many new ship hulls are currently in the dev build? We know of the two drone ships and the Mora, anything else make it in? No need to even describe the hulls (unless you want too), just a number would be great!

Hmm. Haven't been keeping count, but probably something like 7 or 8 at the moment? With possibly more. But e.g. the drone ships aren't something the player can capture or pilot.


Perhaps off topic as well or more on topic... Would it be possible to "seed" a number of Modded factions into the generation sequnce? And could it be limited within the mods files to a certian ammount/sereis of attributes? I think that'd be a great thing to know myself.

I'm not 100% sure on the details of what you're asking re: attributes etc, but pretty sure the answer is "yes" :)


Don't think it's necessarily a "new control" because it's not like you have to lift your hand from what it's already on (like, guaranteed to be on).  Otherwise something like this would be pretty much impossible to implement without a new control.

I mean in the sense of "this is a new interaction the player needs to learn about, and it's not a UI element". That is to say, learning "I need to double-click to do this" is no different than learning "I need to press <key> to do this". Where "I need to click a clearly-labeled button or other kind of UI element to do this" is different.

Also, double-clicking is like opening a folder in Windows.  Sure, you're not under any stress trying to dodge a fleet full of Enforcers that just disengaged their cloaking devices, but the same principle applies.  Don't think you get very many false-positives from that. :)

Yeah, but that's kind of a critical difference :) If you're using a conventional UI, the double-click is a reasonable input paradigm. If you're using left-click to input movement commands in a possibly rapidly changing situation, not so much.
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Az the Squishy

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #108 on: November 30, 2016, 10:51:53 PM »


Perhaps off topic as well or more on topic... Would it be possible to "seed" a number of Modded factions into the generation sequnce? And could it be limited within the mods files to a certian ammount/sereis of attributes? I think that'd be a great thing to know myself.

I'm not 100% sure on the details of what you're asking re: attributes etc, but pretty sure the answer is "yes" :)

Basically:

If planet is "Rocky" % of "mod faction" setteling/controlling is % with A/B/.../Y/Z properties of outpost. 
If planet is "Lava" no setellment for "mod faction"

Either way, huzah!

Deshara

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #109 on: November 30, 2016, 11:23:33 PM »

Clicking empty space unsets the set course, but clicking an object sets it as a detour

That wouldn't work when you're trying to detour around, say, a hyperstorm.

Maybe you could make it be done by shift-clicking. Requires no UI element, and it'd be really natural for anyone who's played an RTS and is used to queing orders to accept shift-clicking on the overworld map to slot the action in without breaking your course.

Maybe even if you aren't on a set course when you return to the overworld map from whatever you shift-clicked it does so paused to simulate the ability to que actions like an RTS does ("on the way to this nearby market we need to head to with 0 cr and our ships about to break apart, stop at this abandoned space station along the way to collect resources we can sell to buy supplies with without stopping" being implemented without needing to actually add action queing by giving the ability to have the game paused when you exit the dialogue for an interaction with the world, which would be justified in being an alternative command (ie not as convenient or universal to use as the current) by it being less convenient for the player to have to hit space to unpause every time they do a thing which they usually don't need to do and makes the game a bit more accessible by allowing players to trade the convenience of their overworld play for the ability to perform clutch maneuvers without losing time between exiting an event and hitting space to pause so they can set their next course
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Gothars

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #110 on: December 01, 2016, 01:55:54 AM »

Hmm. At this point, it seems like an extra control might be the cleanest way to go, if things do go in that direction.

I wouldn't mind a dedicated control.

Hey, why not have a clickable destination marker appear on the new radar UI, after selecting a destination on the map?

Like this:
Have the marked destination show up near the edge of the screen radar UI with one of those bubble-arrow UI thingies that indicates there's a thing off-screen that way.  Then the player can just click on that to resume course.

Should probably be half-transparent or just outside the UI, as to not obstruct the view. An advantage over a static "resume" button is that it can also show direction, and maybe distance (via size).


e/ Mockup:

Basing cancelling on a duration, it's going to be one-size-fits none since it's situational.

It could still be nice in combination with a dedicated control, when you go for the shortest meaningful duration for a course cancellation, like 3-6s. If you could evade small obstacles without having to re-confirm your course every time that would be a welcome QOL improvement.
 
And you could even tie it in with the resume-course-control, by showing the detach progress on it. Maybe the course marker is green while you're on course, and slowly changes color when you divert it, becoming red once you don't rubber-band back to it anymore. That kind of visual feedback is great to teach players what the control is for in the first place.


« Last Edit: December 01, 2016, 04:49:35 AM by Gothars »
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Squigzilla

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #111 on: December 01, 2016, 06:33:23 AM »

Is it possible to bind the set course functionality to simultaneously clicking the left and right mouse buttons? Or maybe right-clicking while the LMB is pressed?
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Gothars

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #112 on: December 01, 2016, 07:43:47 AM »

Is it possible to bind the set course functionality to simultaneously clicking the left and right mouse buttons? Or maybe right-clicking while the LMB is pressed?

You could also just morse R-E-S-U-M-E-C-O-U-R-S-E by klicking with the left mouse button ;)

I think the challenge is not finding an input that works, but one that that adds as little complexity as possible for the player, so the learning curve (of everything combined) doesn't get to steep.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2016, 08:36:29 AM by Gothars »
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Tartiflette

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #113 on: December 01, 2016, 08:30:09 AM »

I see a lot of over complicated layouts. Something tried and true would seem better to me:




On the map, RTS controls: Click to assign a destination, or cancel a waypoint course; Shift+click to create a waypoint course.


     

Campaign view, same as it is currently with one added trick: Click to assign a normal destination hold click to fly around, and either

A Hold click to also maneuver the fleet without cancelling a waypoint chain, while click cancels it. Only problem with this is that if you want to cancel a course while dodging a fleet, you either have to pause the game to click and cancel, or loose a bit of speed as the fleet will try to resume course for a fraction of a second.

or

B Click to add a single point in front of the waypoint chain. Clicking again always replace that single additional point, the chain itself stay unchanged. You can click close to your fleet to resume your waypoint course as the additional point is reached immediately. Hold the button for a second to cancel the waypoint course. This avoids the issue with resuming the course, but is slightly less intuitive.

Obviously only one of these should be used.

Note that if after altering the course or when reaching an added waypoint the fleet is closer to a following one of the chain, farther chain waypoints should automatically be removed. For example in the last image, the visible normal waypoint should be ignored since the added one is closer to the following one out of screen. This should only be the case with the added point, and it look different to avoid any surprise.


Just like a RTS... This doesn't change the current system at all, only add new functionality.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2016, 08:44:42 AM by Tartiflette »
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Alex

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #114 on: December 01, 2016, 09:36:11 PM »

Basically:

If planet is "Rocky" % of "mod faction" setteling/controlling is % with A/B/.../Y/Z properties of outpost. 
If planet is "Lava" no setellment for "mod faction"

Either way, huzah!

Ah, gotcha - yeah, should be doable.

Hey, why not have a clickable destination marker appear on the new radar UI, after selecting a destination on the map?

Heeey, cool! Yeah, that's a great idea - the radar would be a great place to put a hypothetical resume/cancel course related buttons etc. I think I'm leaning more towards a dedicated control, though, but will have to give it more thought if this does seem like it's necessary in the first place.



@Tartiflette: Nice mockup (as usual :P), but I'm just not convinced that setting waypoints is the way to go here.
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Linnis

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #115 on: December 02, 2016, 11:48:15 AM »

@Tartiflette: Nice mockup (as usual :P), but I'm just not convinced that setting waypoints is the way to go here.

Do you mean that way points are not needed? As in we should just have one destination is enough?
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Alex

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #116 on: December 02, 2016, 12:16:27 PM »

Do you mean that way points are not needed? As in we should just have one destination is enough?

That's part of it, yes. I'm not sure it's desirable, either; long-term plans like that are liable to not work out anyway, at which point you've fiddled with it for nothing. The considerable amount of work and complexity seems unwarranted at the moment. The other part is I'm not sure I want to have that type of control on the map.
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Voyager I

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #117 on: December 02, 2016, 02:06:56 PM »

I can tell you that even on the current map, I've already felt the desire for a Resume Course button, along with the ability to estimate travel time and fuel limits on the map.

Waiting to see how things shake out on the expanded sector before cooking up anything too elaborate seems reasonable, so I guess we'll just do what we do best; wait for the update.
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Aeson

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #118 on: December 04, 2016, 01:39:20 PM »

Quote
How about this: to divert from a course you have to keep the LMB pressed, otherwise you will rubber band back to your original course.
Bit late to the party, but I'll just say that I strongly dislike control schemes which require me to press and hold mouse buttons for extended lengths of time.

That applies to both this suggestion and to the pop-up destination selection menu. It's not a deal-breaker for me, but I find it unpleasant and, as far as the menu interface goes, I suspect that I'm more prone to misclicking when I have to hold down the mouse button from the time I bring up the menu to the time I make my selection than is the case with a two-click menu.
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akeean

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #119 on: December 13, 2016, 09:04:51 PM »

Great job, as always.

Love reading you detailing about your design decisions, its one of the best things about this game aside from Starsector itself. Its so satisfying to see how the game is slowly but steadily coming along, even though its taking years.
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