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Author Topic: Cartography  (Read 67454 times)

Schwartz

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #60 on: November 27, 2016, 09:32:53 PM »

Can't wait to see the next version. My own campaign is on hold right now because I'm all combat'ed out. Getting something new to do should be good.

The last point about the Sustained Burn ability made me wonder though.. 10 extra burn for free, while you get less than that and chew through supplies with Emergency Burn? I get why you're doing it, but these two abilities clash in what you pay and what you get IMO, even considering the warm-up. Have you considered a 'cryosleep' route where you fly at regular speed and on a set course, but have time sped up? Maybe coupled with a decrease in supply use and a hostile proximity alert so you won't be caught with your literal pants down.

I'll leave you with a Python quote in the spirit of discovery.

7.30 Fed cat.
8.00 Breakfast.
8.30 Yes (successfully).
9.00 Set out on historic journey.
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Alex

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #61 on: November 27, 2016, 10:20:20 PM »

The last point about the Sustained Burn ability made me wonder though.. 10 extra burn for free, while you get less than that and chew through supplies with Emergency Burn? I get why you're doing it, but these two abilities clash in what you pay and what you get IMO, even considering the warm-up.

Hmm. I don't see it that way - what you get isn't really comparable. Sure, they both affect burn level, but that's like comparing the radius of apples and oranges to decide whether the price is fair. You're not generally deciding which one to use in a given situation; even if you might want to use both during a pursuit or an escape, you'd want to use one or the other based on the tactical situation.

In terms of "making sense in-fiction", it also seems reasonable - an emergency action requires some resources to bring about/mitigate the consequences, while a slow and controlled wind-up doesn't.


(Totally didn't get the quote, btw. Whoosh.)

Edit: regarding time-speedup, that's a bit iffy since anything beyond 2x means there's that much less CPU the game can use and still hit 60 fps at the maximum speedup. Or it could use a larger step size, but that's also iffy as it could make certain things not work. Might have to bite the bullet and look into it at some point anyway, but, yeah.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2016, 10:32:07 PM by Alex »
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PCCL

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #62 on: November 27, 2016, 10:38:10 PM »

hmm, is fuel consumption calculated by distance or time? If it's time, the rate should be increased to equalize fuel efficiency b/t normal burn and sustained burn, I think
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mmm.... tartiflette

Alex

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #63 on: November 27, 2016, 10:50:26 PM »

Yep, it's by distance - precisely for those sorts of reasons.
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Cyan Leader

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #64 on: November 28, 2016, 09:35:02 AM »

In practice isn't Sustained Burn really difficult to use with all the hyperspace storms around? Though there seems to be less nebula around than in .7
« Last Edit: November 28, 2016, 09:37:59 AM by Cyan Leader »
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Alex

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #65 on: November 28, 2016, 10:12:24 AM »

It's actually great for punching through, since the +10 from SB isn't affected by the storm, just like the +5 from EB isn't.

I've also got a todo item to make hyperstorms cost extra fuel instead of CR - not 100% decided on it, but leaning in that direction right now.
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HELMUT

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #66 on: November 28, 2016, 10:15:40 AM »

Sustained burn only give +10 burn speed, for a total of 20 on average. It's actually not that fast, you have plenty of time to see and maneuver around obstacles.

Edit : Ninja'd!


Edit 2 : I personally like storms reducing CR, it makes hyperspace pursuits quite dangerous, and fun. By the way, does storms even reduce AI fleet's CR?
« Last Edit: November 28, 2016, 10:21:22 AM by HELMUT »
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Alex

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #67 on: November 28, 2016, 10:20:30 AM »

If it was only plus speed, yeah. But it also nukes your acceleration to iirc 10% or 20% of normal. Steering and stopping both take a lot of time - e.g. if you're trying to use a jump-point, you'll likely need to disengage SB or the jump will fail as you fly past.
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Wyvern

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #68 on: November 28, 2016, 11:00:40 AM »

Have you considered a 'cryosleep' route where you fly at regular speed and on a set course, but have time sped up? Maybe coupled with a decrease in supply use and a hostile proximity alert so you won't be caught with your literal pants down.
I'd think time acceleration would be the wrong way to do this.  Engage cryosleep route, screen fades to black, and then either you're approaching your destination or you're somewhere in the middle of nowhere with alarms blaring and a pirate fleet closing in...

In the (likely) event that nothing like that makes it into the game, there is one function I'd want to see: a 'resume course' option, or at least a settable destination marker; there are, at the moment, a number of things in the game that cause you to want to make minor course adjustments around them (hyperspace storms, pirate fleets, stars), and - especially for long-distance transits - it's a bit of a pain to have to re-set your course each time.
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Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

Voyager I

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #69 on: November 28, 2016, 01:03:02 PM »

=
In the (likely) event that nothing like that makes it into the game, there is one function I'd want to see: a 'resume course' option, or at least a settable destination marker; there are, at the moment, a number of things in the game that cause you to want to make minor course adjustments around them (hyperspace storms, pirate fleets, stars), and - especially for long-distance transits - it's a bit of a pain to have to re-set your course each time.

I'll second this request.  It's going to become even more of a concern with an expansion of the star map and larger general emphasis on travel.
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Linnis

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #70 on: November 28, 2016, 03:33:55 PM »

=
In the (likely) event that nothing like that makes it into the game, there is one function I'd want to see: a 'resume course' option, or at least a settable destination marker; there are, at the moment, a number of things in the game that cause you to want to make minor course adjustments around them (hyperspace storms, pirate fleets, stars), and - especially for long-distance transits - it's a bit of a pain to have to re-set your course each time.

I'll second this request.  It's going to become even more of a concern with an expansion of the star map and larger general emphasis on travel.

Third. Having to constantly readjust or click/hold down mouse non stop is very tiring way of playing. Feels like playing starcraft and you have to baby sit a unit across the map.  A lock on function where if the mouse is held down while auto traveling the fleet would follow the mouse and upon release the fleet would resume towards the destination.


Also on the note of hyperspace storm causing fuel instead of CR, Perhaps we can have hyperspace "distortion" and "storm" as separate things. One is a snare and costs fuel, while the other is just straight up dangerous the fly though costing CR and visibility.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2016, 03:42:30 PM by Linnis »
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Voyager I

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #71 on: November 29, 2016, 09:13:58 AM »

Losing fuel can pretty easily turn into a game-over as well.
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DatonKallandor

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #72 on: November 29, 2016, 09:17:08 AM »

I've also got a todo item to make hyperstorms cost extra fuel instead of CR - not 100% decided on it, but leaning in that direction right now.

I think that'd be a huge mistake because it would make the range preview useless. It will only work because fuel consumption is distance based but the moment anything out of control of the player can change fuel consumption mid-travel all possibility of using the range indicators to plot a course would be useless. Single obvious moments of fuel change (like fights or emergency burns) are fine, because you can re-check at that moment and have a new max range that will be correct until the next obvious change moment - but a constant irregular change in consumption like flying through clouds? There'd be no way to check how your range changes from one moment to the next.
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Wyvern

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #73 on: November 29, 2016, 09:21:00 AM »

On the other hand, if they don't cost fuel, then - when trying to go somewhere at the edge of your range - the correct answer is to just make a straight line course and go.

To some extent, I find the Sustained Burn ability a bit worrying for the same reason: it makes it much more reasonable / nearly-correct to simply ignore hyperspace storms, especially if using it also makes it difficult to dodge around them.
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Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

Alex

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #74 on: November 29, 2016, 09:42:27 AM »

=
In the (likely) event that nothing like that makes it into the game, there is one function I'd want to see: a 'resume course' option, or at least a settable destination marker; there are, at the moment, a number of things in the game that cause you to want to make minor course adjustments around them (hyperspace storms, pirate fleets, stars), and - especially for long-distance transits - it's a bit of a pain to have to re-set your course each time.

I'll second this request.  It's going to become even more of a concern with an expansion of the star map and larger general emphasis on travel.

Third. Having to constantly readjust or click/hold down mouse non stop is very tiring way of playing.

As a thought experiment: how might one do this without introducing an additional control specifically to resume course?

A lock on function where if the mouse is held down while auto traveling the fleet would follow the mouse and upon release the fleet would resume towards the destination.

Assuming the lock-on was done via a map menu, how would one break lock-on without a dedicated control?

Not entirely opposed to adding a control for this, but I also hesitate to just add 'em willy nilly, because that can get unmanageable quickly.


Losing fuel can pretty easily turn into a game-over as well.

That depends on how out-of-fuel is handled. However, the point of changing that would not be nerfing storms but rather making them into a different sort of danger.

I think that'd be a huge mistake because it would make the range preview useless. It will only work because fuel consumption is distance based but the moment anything out of control of the player can change fuel consumption mid-travel all possibility of using the range indicators to plot a course would be useless. Single obvious moments of fuel change (like fights or emergency burns) are fine, because you can re-check at that moment and have a new max range that will be correct until the next obvious change moment - but a constant irregular change in consumption like flying through clouds? There'd be no way to check how your range changes from one moment to the next.

You're probably going to be checking the map periodically anyway. And if you're heading somewhere at the extreme range of your fuel and don't have a reserve to account for storms or other losses, that's entirely on you. It's just a question of how you interpret the range display; extreme range means ideal circumstances which are unlikely to materialize.


To some extent, I find the Sustained Burn ability a bit worrying for the same reason: it makes it much more reasonable / nearly-correct to simply ignore hyperspace storms, especially if using it also makes it difficult to dodge around them.

Switch to a fuel penalty actually changes up the dynamics here, since barreling through them or plodding through without SB will cost the same amount of extra fuel.

Oddly/interestingly, it makes turning off SB and stopping a good response to being caught in a storm which... really doesn't seem good. Hmm. Well, I did say I was still thinking about it :)
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