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Author Topic: Cartography  (Read 67549 times)

The2nd

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #45 on: November 26, 2016, 01:47:24 PM »

Looks very promising !

I especially like that the generation works around mod systems.

Though I would like to see a few small premade population centers worked into the random generation, maybe a random location but the system itself is handcrafted. Similarly to what Kazi suggested.

Long range high risk high reward trade-run to a destination outside the core worlds sounds fun  ;D

 
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Ambient

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #46 on: November 26, 2016, 08:34:50 PM »

Looking good.

Looking really good.
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Alex

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #47 on: November 26, 2016, 10:56:09 PM »

Well, I will say that I think Starsector is a combat-focused game, so how are you gonna work in some potential for major battles when the player is out on the fringe and faaaar away from the major factions? Are those distant systems gonna be almost totally devoid of any major threats (drones not being a threat)?

It's a good question. I'll just say that I'm acutely aware of this, and have been from the start in terms of designing exploration and salvage mechanics and content.
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Kanil

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #48 on: November 27, 2016, 02:27:20 AM »

I'm not sure "picking the Sector age" will remain as a new game option going forward - might get replaced with something stronger, perhaps like what you're talking about. More ruins from one age vs another, etc. Naturally, the concept of constellation age would remain in any case, since it's a core part of how they're generated.

As someone who spends way too much time running random map generators over and over again until I get something I like, I would much prefer more options to less.

I mean, I don't want to sound like I'm campaigning hard to keep around a feature I haven't even used yet (and isn't even necessarily going away at some distant point in the future), but "type of systems" and "what you find in them" seem like they could be two separate things.
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Clockwork Owl

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #49 on: November 27, 2016, 05:39:34 AM »


He whispered of this from the stars.
He told you of his return.
He told you of ruin... extinction.
The end of all things.

(Sorry; couldn't resist :P)

More ruins from one age vs another, etc.
Does the Sector have history of colonization long enough to have ruins of multiple era?

but "type of systems" and "what you find in them" seem like they could be two separate things.
My guess is that planet/star type, etc., will become more relevant when the Outpost building becomes a thing.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2016, 05:54:26 AM by Aron0621 »
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Megas

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #50 on: November 27, 2016, 07:51:10 AM »

Question: How are you going to stop hidden game overs of someone running out of fuel and falling into an empty system?
As long as permadeath is not an option, simply scuttle fleet and respawn (likely near a friendly station) like a lich.  (Early enough in the game, this can even help you!  Later, it may or may not hurt too much.)  Or (in non-Ironman) reload to an earlier save (not possible in Ironman with no enemies to pick a fight with).  It may be silly that the player is allowed to scuttle the last remaining ship his fleet, but it works if the player wants to suicide quickly.

As for the topic, others have said things I would have said, such as noticing Persian League in the game.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2016, 07:53:42 AM by Megas »
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Gothars

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #51 on: November 27, 2016, 09:41:21 AM »

Quote from: Cartography Blogpost
the Sector is getting pretty big, and travel can take a long time.

Quote from: Hyperspace Terrain Blogpost
The idea was simple – you’d have wavefronts moving through hyperspace, and your fleet could catch a ride on one and be carried along.

The two main factors at work here are the distance between stars and the speed at which fleets move – these determine how long travel takes, and thus how much time can reasonably be spent looking for a wavefront before it becomes more efficient to just go.

As it turns out, stars – especially neighboring stars – are pretty close to each other, so there’s not a lot of time to play with here.


Maybe it would be a good idea to have another look at wave fronts?

The main problem was that stars are to close together to warrant a wave front ride. But now we have constellations, and a much bigger map. Why not use them for long distance travel? If a wave front could sweep you all the way across the map, I'd imagine it would safe you plenty of time and fuel and make looking for it worthwile. Wave fronts then would not be so much a way to make your regular run from star to star for trading and missions, but a way to venture into completely new regions and expand your horizon.

« Last Edit: November 27, 2016, 10:05:42 AM by Gothars »
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Alex

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #52 on: November 27, 2016, 10:16:21 AM »

As someone who spends way too much time running random map generators over and over again until I get something I like, I would much prefer more options to less.

I mean, I don't want to sound like I'm campaigning hard to keep around a feature I haven't even used yet (and isn't even necessarily going away at some distant point in the future), but "type of systems" and "what you find in them" seem like they could be two separate things.

They'd be two separate things, yeah. The question is whether one of them would be significant enough to warrant being an option, vs some sensible preset.


...
He whispered of this from the stars.
...

SC2 quote, apparently? Didn't play the campaign much, and I don't think I played it at all for HotS.


Maybe it would be a good idea to have another look at wave fronts?

For reference, "Sustained Burn" gives you more of a boost than wavefronts did, iirc. And something moving faster would be even harder to catch. The idea just had problems, "too little distance between stars" being only one of them. It's one of those where nothing was really right for it - the scale, the timeframes, the relative speeds, etc.
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Dri

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #53 on: November 27, 2016, 01:08:06 PM »

Could add random and/or even set location Hyperspace rifts/wormholes/anomalies that shoot you off to other regions of Hyperspace. Navigation skill would come into play and the higher the skill the more info you'll get before diving through—"Sensors indicate that exit of Hyperspace anomaly is located in quadrant Alpha, nearest to nebula x/y/z". Anything that makes Hyperspace more interesting and even ties into a skill(s), is right-on to me!
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Deshara

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #54 on: November 27, 2016, 01:38:55 PM »

that's also basically exactly what hyperspace is tho
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Dri

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #55 on: November 27, 2016, 02:45:21 PM »

Inserts "yo dawg, I heard you like" meme here.

Well, I was thinking about mostly random occurrences of these wormholes that'll help to spice up travel in Hyperspace. Dodging Hyperspace storms for 5-10 minutes to get to a distant system doesn't sound super fun so anything that can either speed up travel (like the wormholes) or make it more interesting, should be seriously considered.

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Gothars

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #56 on: November 27, 2016, 03:01:44 PM »

Mh. If they can't be made useful, I'm sure wave fronts would work well as interesting obstacles. Something you'd have to dodge, not to be swept away. Could also be a regional thing to make certain valuable systems harder to access.
Hyperspace storms are nice, but most of the time don't exactly keep you on your toes. Besides, this wave front gif was just so pretty :)
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frag971

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #57 on: November 27, 2016, 03:02:56 PM »

Very interesting, can't wait for the patch. I do have a few ideas:

1) Map exploration could be expanded dramatically by simply playing around with the map itself, with example such as:
1-a) Stars show the real colour unless the player has the star charts for that planetary system. Otherwise the player has to manually explore and scan the star and planets within the system. Charts can be gained from missions, hacked out of beacons/buoys, loot from fleet fights, etc...
1-b) Brown Dwarves or Rogue Planets could be discovered by gaining secret star charts from special loot/rewards, these are normally undetectable and can be a great way to procedurally generate "dungeons" with secret bases/fleets inside
1-c) Perhaps allow it as a mod: restrict hypertravel to point-to-point only, no free-flight within it and to unlock new systems you need those star charts (and getting them is part of the effort/challenge).

2) Introduce fog-of-war into the map, perhaps a fancy line-of-sight-based "scan-flavoured" exploration of it, players wouldn't know where they are going and they have to properly explore the map. Lore-wise this would be explained as "astronomical observation is restricted to the major factions and is otherwise illegal".

3) Hyperspace Wind - occasionally some wind would blow your fleet out of the way into the unknown, beware! This is a new hazzard.

4) Would it be possible for mods to massively expand the map into a much larger collection of planetary systems?
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Toxcity

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #58 on: November 27, 2016, 03:18:29 PM »

The new map looks amazing. I also like how the names avoid overlapping eachother. Only thing I was wondering is if the name is highlighted (or something similar) when hovering over or clicking a plant. Could make looking for a certain planet/station in a cluster easier.

Related to the Persean League, are they supposed to be the Coalition from the old blog post about faction logos?
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Alex

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #59 on: November 27, 2016, 07:18:06 PM »

Well, I was thinking about mostly random occurrences of these wormholes that'll help to spice up travel in Hyperspace.

Yeah, that could be interesting.


Mh. If they can't be made useful, I'm sure wave fronts would work well as interesting obstacles. Something you'd have to dodge, not to be swept away. Could also be a regional thing to make certain valuable systems harder to access.
Hyperspace storms are nice, but most of the time don't exactly keep you on your toes. Besides, this wave front gif was just so pretty :)

Ha, it really was pretty :) Didn't quite look right with everything else in the game, unfortunately - bit too 3D looking, even though it was a 2D effect.



4) Would it be possible for mods to massively expand the map into a much larger collection of planetary systems?

Hmm. For some values of "possible", probably, but I wouldn't recommend it. Hyperspace terrain is about as large as it's practical for it to be (it's implemented as tiles; consider the vast number of tiles in a 160000x100000 unit sector, where every cell is 200x200 pixels - 400k cells). So say you removed that, or made it more sparse, or whatever. Then you could probably get away with... I don't know, I want to say up to 10x the star systems. But I'd expect it to run slower, result in a larger savefile, and possibly not work on some lower end systems. And if you were to fill those systems up with things so they're not just empty and uninteresting, that number falls sharply.


Only thing I was wondering is if the name is highlighted (or something similar) when hovering over or clicking a plant. Could make looking for a certain planet/station in a cluster easier.

I've got a TODO item to brighten the name of a selected thing, yeah. Pretty sure it won't be necessary, though - just zooming in ought to be sufficient.


Related to the Persean League, are they supposed to be the Coalition from the old blog post about faction logos?

Yeah, good guess!
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