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Author Topic: Shields - how to overwhelm them?  (Read 15508 times)

Cik

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Re: Shields - how to overwhelm them?
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2016, 08:28:28 AM »

good point, what we really need are less HEAT warheads and more nuclear warheads

large missile mount MIRV nuclear blast missiles when thanks
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MesoTroniK

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Re: Shields - how to overwhelm them?
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2016, 03:30:52 PM »

To be fair, a big enough shaped charge would be plenty effective in space warfare... Especially if it is a directed nuclear explosive.

Cik

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Re: Shields - how to overwhelm them?
« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2016, 03:41:07 PM »

directed shaped charge works perfectly fine as the force of the blast reverberates through the armor and the heat and spalling frag blow inward through the armor

but if you want a pure energy missile weapon, you want a high-MT nuclear weapon that detonates off the armor in a huge blast.

we're still kind of missing this sort of weapon, as well as the bomb-pumped laser (mayorate has them in the lasertaps, i think though)

but they would be pretty neat to have in the game anyway, if energy missiles are what you want.
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MesoTroniK

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Re: Shields - how to overwhelm them?
« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2016, 04:58:53 PM »

You are forgetting about the hypersonic mass of the shaped charge jet itself that is projected forwards in a very small point.





Yes, that over penetrated an M60 turret.

Cik

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Re: Shields - how to overwhelm them?
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2016, 06:25:03 PM »

that's what you get when you don't have ERA

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MesoTroniK

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Re: Shields - how to overwhelm them?
« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2016, 06:58:07 PM »

Or composite armor that has an RHAe of at least 1 meter.

Voyager I

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Re: Shields - how to overwhelm them?
« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2016, 10:34:55 AM »

One COULD script the Sabot so it only does insane kinetic damage to shields. I don't think it'd be that difficult either - Blackrock Shardguns does the reverse, with more damage being dealt if there isn't a shield in the way. That would ensure that it'd only really be good for making a ship overload.

It's already bad at that because anything thicker than a high-tech frigate can just drop shields for a moment and take it on the chin.  The weapon definitely doesn't need to be worse in that situation.
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King Alfonzo

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Re: Shields - how to overwhelm them?
« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2016, 03:24:42 PM »

It's already bad at that because anything thicker than a high-tech frigate can just drop shields for a moment and take it on the chin.  The weapon definitely doesn't need to be worse in that situation.

But that's the POINT of the Sabot - either overload the enemy ship, or force it to drop shields so you can whack it hard with HE or EMP. It's not really supposed to be a conventional finisher like a Harpoon or an Atropos. As it stands the weapon is almost too versatile, and the only reason it isn't completely broken is because that first stage of the rocket is so slow. If it cost more OP I could understand it as an "all-rounder, doesn't matter what you use it on it'll die" sort of weapon, but as it stands it really should only be a shield cracker / frigate crippler.

Morgan Rue

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Re: Shields - how to overwhelm them?
« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2016, 03:54:44 PM »

3 medium Sabot launchers on a Griffin is capable of blowing up most ships small/medium in ships in one volley (9 sabots), while also ignoring PD completely and causing an overload if they do decide to shield. I used to think Sabots were bad until I started using them in mass. They are actually a pretty big threat to armor because of their very high damage. 36 Sabots can pose a serious threat to even an Onslaught's armor. Combined with an HE weapon that means one dead Onslaught. Tbf, I think most missile systems a Griffin can use would blow up small/medium ships in one volley, but only Sabots can do so while completely ignoring PD.
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DatonKallandor

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Re: Shields - how to overwhelm them?
« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2016, 09:12:53 AM »

But that's the POINT of the Sabot - either overload the enemy ship, or force it to drop shields so you can whack it hard with HE or EMP.

There is no cooldown in dropping and re-raising shields and the AI is ridiculously good at it. There simply is no window to "whack something hard with HE" after you force them to drop their shields with a threatened kinetic shot. If dropping a shield and raising it took some time (and I'd argue it really should, for AI and general gameplay reasons), yes - but as it stands a shield-damage-only strike weapon, especially with limited ammo, would be utterly useless.
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Kaucukovnik

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Re: Shields - how to overwhelm them?
« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2016, 10:39:31 AM »

Exactly, that was the main point of my original post. They drop the shield, you try to whack them and they just flicker their shield precisely to negate every single shot's specific bonus, if at all possible. Anything that doesn't hit instantly or deal constant stream of damage is bound to hit the surface it is the weakest against.

It doesn't help that the AI is omniscient - it can recognize every weapon immediately, knows the damage type, rate of fire and range, even including hullmods and skills.

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Megas

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Re: Shields - how to overwhelm them?
« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2016, 11:25:03 AM »

But that's the POINT of the Sabot - either overload the enemy ship, or force it to drop shields so you can whack it hard with HE or EMP. It's not really supposed to be a conventional finisher like a Harpoon or an Atropos. As it stands the weapon is almost too versatile, and the only reason it isn't completely broken is because that first stage of the rocket is so slow. If it cost more OP I could understand it as an "all-rounder, doesn't matter what you use it on it'll die" sort of weapon, but as it stands it really should only be a shield cracker / frigate crippler.
Two reasons why Sabot is not overwhelming:  One, first-stage delay.  Sometimes, you only have a moment and Sabots are too slow to take advantage of that opening.  Two, AI sees Sabot as anti-shield and wastes them mostly on shields instead of saving it as an unblockable finisher.  If you want to give AI missiles, it is usually better to give them Harpoons (or Annihilators).

I would not want to use missiles solely as shield-breaker.  Shields regenerate, Sabots do not.  Old default Hammerhead configuration with Sabots for anti-shield and Assault Chainguns for general-purpose assault was a joke.

A few versions ago, Sabot had a shotgun-like spread which did even more damage to shields than the original and current Sabots.  The fatal problem was the AI always dropped shields and took insignificant damage to armor and/or hull.  This meant the only one who suffered the extra shield damage were likely ships piloted by less competent players instead of the AI.  Shotgun Sabots was only useful for forcing the AI to drop shields, which might useful if the missiles were unlimited and the ship has superb burst damage configuration (such as multiple blasters or plasma cannons).

Today's Sabots are brutal and effective.  I like them, but not enough to use them unless they are free (i.e., 0 OP one-shots).
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Cik

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Re: Shields - how to overwhelm them?
« Reply #27 on: November 29, 2016, 04:19:54 PM »

But that's the POINT of the Sabot - either overload the enemy ship, or force it to drop shields so you can whack it hard with HE or EMP.

There is no cooldown in dropping and re-raising shields and the AI is ridiculously good at it. There simply is no window to "whack something hard with HE" after you force them to drop their shields with a threatened kinetic shot. If dropping a shield and raising it took some time (and I'd argue it really should, for AI and general gameplay reasons), yes - but as it stands a shield-damage-only strike weapon, especially with limited ammo, would be utterly useless.

the AI is reasonably good at it but this doesn't really matter. fire a constant stream of HE and don't aim directly at where the shield originates and it doesn't matter that much; furthermore have one ship on the flank and you have conservatively 2-3 seconds of open armor to blast at.

if it drops shields to sabot it can easily die to reapers to rear/side armor just like that.

if you are on equal footing and don't have a knockout punch capable of quickly annihilating the enemy, your tactics have failed and you should just withdraw.

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DatonKallandor

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Re: Shields - how to overwhelm them?
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2016, 12:15:12 PM »

Two ships to one is hardly a scenario that matters for weapon balance. Of course shields get worse when you're outnumbered. Everything gets worse when you're outnumbered.

A "stream of HE" will get a few shells through a shield flickering AI - which in equal fights (equal ship sizes) means you scratch the armor unless you sneak a torpedo through. And that's a one-shot trick you can't repeat for the rest of the fight, that can easily not work (because the AI is extremely good at flickering shields) - and for bigger ships that's unlikely to even be a kill (discounting the insane impact missile skills have on torps).
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TaLaR

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Re: Shields - how to overwhelm them?
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2016, 07:41:45 PM »

A "stream of HE" will get a few shells through a shield flickering AI - which in equal fights (equal ship sizes) means you scratch the armor unless you sneak a torpedo through. And that's a one-shot trick you can't repeat for the rest of the fight, that can easily not work (because the AI is extremely good at flickering shields) - and for bigger ships that's unlikely to even be a kill (discounting the insane impact missile skills have on torps).

And that is why you need combined stream of HE + Kinetics once enemy is at high flux (at low they just take everything on shield) or manually fire HE to sync it's arrival on target with Kinetics.
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