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Author Topic: More PD  (Read 8796 times)

Deshara

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More PD
« on: October 20, 2016, 06:33:20 PM »

I think the selection of point defense is a bit limited.
Lets shotgun suggestions for alternatives!

My idea: Canister Gun. Offspring of the light flak and the mauler and sister gun of the mortar; twin barreled high velocity gun that fires long range (800) HE slugs with a small aoe blast. Hits hard enough to one-shot all but the strongest torpedo in the game, has high accuracy and has a mag size of 2 shots, but has slow enough post-fire tracking speed that the only way it could fire twice on an individual projectile is if the projectile is on a low-vector flight path (ie can only repeatedly fire on missiles targeting itself)
High flux cost, for a small ballistic gun, but loads slow enough that it sits between the mortar and the LAG on both the fps and dps scales, with it being a little closer to the LAG in terms of flux cost and a little closer to the mortar in terms of damage output, making it only just somewhat better than the mortar in terms of flux/damage but with not only severely increased per-hit damage from the LAG but actually just somewhat out-alpha'ing the Mauler with both barrels coming into play
My thinking is it'd be a low-effectiveness jack of all trades, while also filling some niches that the small ballistic mounts don't handle, from alpha striking enemy ships to kiting unshielded vessels to strike fighter/torpedo interception, with the justification that the hull mods that would optimize it for those roles are mutually exclusive-- extended mags makes one CG hit like nearly 2 maulers but a triple shot takes longer to load and spends way longer unable to track, making it useless for pd, or getting the range and turn boost to make it an effective missile/fighter sniper but then usually being too busy to ever build up the dual shots it'd need to justify using it offensively instead of a lag or a mortar or a mauler.
Also, lord forgive anyone who runs into a pather brawler with dual heavy mg's, safety overrides, extended mags and dual cg's, putting out the hurt of triple maulers
Thoughts? Or, your new PD gun pitch?
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Dri

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Re: More PD
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2016, 09:01:49 PM »

But, but think of the missiles! Poor little guys.

I think PD is pretty solid right now—though some complain that the Guardian PD is, uh, not too hot at the moment. I run mostly ballistic armed ships so flak and dual flak take care of almost all missile threats nicely.
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Deshara

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Re: More PD
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2016, 10:16:14 PM »

I just find only having flak or machine guns boring
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korda

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Re: More PD
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2016, 11:56:12 PM »

The problem is that in late game big battle size means  that often you have to deal with all kinds os missiles and specialized PD could get easily distracted by other missiles flying around instead of those you would like it to target. If it would be able to fire only at certain missiles (for example only at reapers and hammers) then creating perfect opportunity to fire torpedoes at enemy ship would be much harder (since long range means that allies can easily help poor ship torpedoes are aimed at). So the idea is a bit risky... Either it gets *** OP thx to long range or it will end up as niche weapon almost never used in practice.

Is current selection bit boring? Perhaps, but I would like to see other kind of PD (for example PD that messes with homing abilities of missiles or rocket based PD systems) not just another "shoot bullets at stuff until it dies". And even then, I don't care that much for PD (since I don't shoot it personally, or use it to fight enemies... it's mostly background noise for me).

Hm... In fact I wouldn't mind long-range, bit-OP PD weapon if it was specific to certain ship design - for example dedicated PD frigate model.
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Morgan Rue

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Re: More PD
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2016, 05:24:23 PM »

We have several PD options, but they tend to get overshadowed by flak. Also, all small non-PD weapons can attempt to be PD weapons with IDPAI.
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DownTheDrain

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Re: More PD
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2016, 06:29:35 PM »

Also, all small non-PD weapons can attempt to be PD weapons with IDPAI.

That cuts both ways though, you can easily end up with a lot of extra flux from weapons firing at missiles without much of a chance of hitting anything.

I think the game has a solid selection of 'regular' PD, but the already mentioned ECM-based PD or counter-missiles (Diable Avionics does those pretty well if I'm not mistaken) would be welcome.
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Megas

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Re: More PD
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2016, 08:47:53 AM »

We have several PD options, but they tend to get overshadowed by flak. Also, all small non-PD weapons can attempt to be PD weapons with IDPAI.
Yes, dual flak trumps all.

There are only three good small non-PD weapons for IPDAI:  Tactical Laser, IR Pulse Laser, and Railgun.
Tactical Laser has passthrough and long-range.  If you do not need them for anti-Salamander and can handle the flux cost (some ships cannot), then it is very good.  IR Pulse Laser is for when beams do not have enough stopping power and/or your ship needs IR Pulse Lasers for shooting at enemy ships while missiles are not present.  Railgun is for ships like Sunder that need ballistics primarily for anti-shield, but can shoot at missiles at times.  Other non-PD ballistics lack the accuracy, fire rate, or DPS to outperform even LMGs, let alone Vulcan; and Ion Cannon is too weak to be effective for PD.
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Mini S

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Re: More PD
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2016, 04:00:39 AM »

This is my first comment in the forum.

Ion Cannon is too weak to be effective for PD.

I think the game has a solid selection of 'regular' PD, but the already mentioned ECM-based PD or counter-missiles (Diable Avionics does those pretty well if I'm not mistaken) would be welcome.

In my opinion the Ion Cannon would be a good choice for an ECM-based PD as it does a large amount of EMP damage.

Sorry for any gramar errors as English is not my language.
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korda

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Re: More PD
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2016, 04:20:13 AM »

In my opinion the Ion Cannon would be a good choice for an ECM-based PD as it does a large amount of EMP damage.

But wouldn't it keep shooting at missile until missiles are destroyed (at least with current turret AI)?

I imaging ECM based PD as some kind of low-rate-of-fire EMP wave gun shutting down missile homing abilities (and preferably working only on missiles, so no real EMP damage but some kind of special weapon behavior).
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Deshara

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Re: More PD
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2016, 05:00:34 AM »

I have never been able to get EMP PD to work
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Harmful Mechanic

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Re: More PD
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2016, 03:29:26 PM »

The vanilla EMP Emitter is already a fearsomely good missile defense. Burn out the missiles with it and sweep them up with ordinary PD lasers.

Balancing a modular version would be... fraught. Ideally, (modular) PD should be good enough that it improves missile protection, but bad enough that it doesn't provide total missile protection. Finding that balance with an EMP weapon is tough.
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Megas

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Re: More PD
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2016, 04:24:48 PM »

Problem with EMP Emitter is it suppresses all of your weapons while it runs, and the Omen cannot shut it off early after the EMP does its job.  (Main reason why I think Omen is a joke ship.)  Shade can phase to cancel, but that hurts now that phase cloak has recovery.
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Linnis

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Re: More PD
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2016, 04:56:44 PM »

Why dont we just get mount-able flares or chaff dispensers?

Personally I think shooting a mist of chaff that are composed of tiny 2x1 pixels that randomly "reflect" light. Missles could lose target in it or just collide with the particles. That would be way cooler then flares.
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King Alfonzo

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Re: More PD
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2016, 05:19:31 PM »

Ship and Weapon pack already has these, and they're pretty good at doing the PD thing. Unfortunately, they're missile slot weapons, forcing you to really think about whether you want to use them instead of high alpha weaponry.

Serenitis

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Re: More PD
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2016, 12:37:42 PM »

Ship and Weapon pack already has these, and they're pretty good at doing the PD thing. Unfortunately, they're missile slot weapons, forcing you to really think about whether you want to use them instead of high alpha weaponry.
Tbf, that kind of tradeoff makes for a pretty good balance.
The flare pod alone makes some otherwise doubtful ships useful again.

Ballistic PD is mostly fine. The only exceptions being the MGs which are actually pretty mediocre at PD, while being amazing knife-range assault weapons.

Energy PD is all over the place.
PD beam is fine. Mining beam is a poundland knockoff and is thus suitably weak. LRPD is way too flux and OP heavy for what it does. (and it can't track properly.)
Burst lasers are fine if a little OP expensive. And Guardian is amazing, with the sole caveat that it can only really be used effectively on one ship. (Oddy.)

If anything changes for PD it will be the small energy beams as they are what let things down the most.

I have never been able to get EMP PD to work
Same. It doesn't hit hard or fast enough and generates too much flux. IRPL is vastly superior choice for ghetto PD.
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