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Author Topic: LRPD needs help!  (Read 11304 times)

Cik

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Re: LRPD needs help!
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2016, 01:57:02 PM »

PD ships are useless because PD is too good

every ship can be self sufficient even against several ships firing ordinance these days, meaning dedicated escorts are pretty pointless as all you really need is a few ships somewhere near each other with dualflak to destroy all but the most concentrated volleys.

nerf PD plx
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HELMUT

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Re: LRPD needs help!
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2016, 02:13:46 PM »

We're going to have Talons with frickin' Swarmers in the next update. I'm not sure i want nerfed PDs on top of that.

(Dual flak is really stronk tho)
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DownTheDrain

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Re: LRPD needs help!
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2016, 02:26:49 PM »

nerf PD plx

Only if you simultaneously boost fleet formations, or rather the entire strategic layer while you're at it.
Leaving the lack of command points in early game aside, "dedicated escorts" for PD aren't really an option when those escorts insist on suiciding to protect the target instead of hanging back and just intercepting missiles.
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whatdoesthisbuttondo

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Re: LRPD needs help!
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2016, 02:44:52 PM »

Leaving the lack of command points in early game aside, "dedicated escorts" for PD aren't really an option when those escorts insist on suiciding to protect the target instead of hanging back and just intercepting missiles.

That's an AI topic though, the escort command should probably be broken up into different commands, e.g. fighter / missile screen, close escort (aka dont run off mowing down stuff halfway across the map), and agressive / enforcing escort.

A simple escort command doesn't really specify what you want the unit to do, say ordering a frigate to escort a cruiser could mean anything from "draw fire to open up attack vector for the cruiser", "flank and harass", "screen against flanking bombers" etc.
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DownTheDrain

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Re: LRPD needs help!
« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2016, 02:56:51 PM »

That's an AI topic though, the escort command should probably be broken up into different commands, e.g. fighter / missile screen, close escort (aka dont run off mowing down stuff halfway across the map), and agressive / enforcing escort.

Oh yeah, absolutely.
I was just replying to a request to nerf PD because I don't want dedicated PD escorts to be a necessity before the game offers a reliable way to have them in place.
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Megas

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Re: LRPD needs help!
« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2016, 06:04:49 PM »

LR PD is useless, thanks to poor DPS, higher OP cost than PD laser, and outrageously high flux cost.  PD laser or Tactical Laser+hullmods are superior to LRPD laser.  The only thing going for LR PD laser is it is very common, more so than all other beam PD.

I did not realize it turned slower than PD laser.  Turn rate matching PD laser sounds nice, but that is not enough.

If LR PD laser keeps its flux cost, it needs more DPS and/or lower OP cost.  As is, I will never use LR PD laser.  PD laser does the job better for less OP cost.

If LR PD flux cost was lowered to match Tactical Laser, it would be fine.  It would be a cheap low-budget version of tac laser.  Currently, LR PD laser feels like a half Ion Beam without the EMP.  Ion Beams are flux hogs!
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Morgan Rue

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Re: LRPD needs help!
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2016, 06:46:39 PM »

If you are going to make a dedicated PD boat, Tac Lasers with IPDAI and ATG would probably preform better than LRPDs, just in general. The comparison for LRPDs should not be to normal PD lasers, it should be to Tacs with IPDAI. Which, if you have at least 4/8/12/20 Tacs, is as OP efficient as LRPDs. If you are keeping IPDAI around that is, which I sure hope you do.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2016, 06:53:40 PM by Morgan Rue »
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Schwartz

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Re: LRPD needs help!
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2016, 08:18:31 PM »

Even with Gyros and without Optics, Tac Lasers struggle to turn fast enough to intercept the more dangerous missiles. They mostly waste time chasing 'em. If your ship is turning and the target is moving, you'll quickly find a difference between the two. Tac Lasers will flicker on and off and generally be f***ing frustrating to watch without scoring a lot of solid hits, while real PD can keep up. Turning speed on paper looks not that much different, but I think when Tac Lasers are actually firing, they turn much slower than PD.

I find it's more efficient to leave IPDAI out of Tac Laser ships so they can do what they do best.. stick to fighters or bigger threats and take those out that much quicker.
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Thaago

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Re: LRPD needs help!
« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2016, 08:41:41 PM »

I'm with Schwartz on this - I consider IPDAI a trap option for tactical lasers. Its not so much an issue now as fighters are less of a threat, but once they are deadly again I don't want all of my pinpoint accurate 1000 range anti-fighter weapons desperately trying to hit a swarmer. Thats what the PD guns are for.
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TaLaR

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Re: LRPD needs help!
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2016, 09:59:01 PM »

Any kind PD has to be good enough to be worth using at all, otherwise it's preferable to just concentrate on evading/let missiles hit shield and use OP elsewhere. LRPD doesn't qualify due to laughably bad flux efficiency and hefty OP cost.

As for Salamanders and IPDAI+Gyro+Tac , when you have several ships with overlapping coverage, any single missile is unlikely to have high angular velocity relative to all of them, so tracking doesn't hurt that much.

Intercepting swarmers is kind of wasteful for almost any PD (if other targets are available) for shielded ships. But we don't get configurable target priorities for PD, so that's something to live with.
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Megas

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Re: LRPD needs help!
« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2016, 06:06:42 AM »

Tactical Lasers plus hullmods are viable PD, and it is not a trap option.  It has trouble stopping looping Salamanders, but it is great at long-range interception, and it has passthough, which no other PD features.  It is not perfect, but no beam PD is (all have terrible stopping power due to low DPS, unlike IR Pulse Laser or ballistics).  The only perfect PD weapon is dual flak.  Even Vulcans are better PD than beams.

As for PD boat, beams are terrible unless you have a bunch of ships to zap things in a crossfire.  If you want a dedicated PD boat, get something with dual flak.  The role of dedicated PD boat is completely unnecessary.  Most ships have enough mounts to get some viable PD, and it that is not enough for some ships, more ships supporting each other should help.
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Sutopia

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Re: LRPD needs help!
« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2016, 06:27:21 AM »

half all PD's DPS and add a hull mod that doubles PD DPS
problem solved
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Since all my mods have poor reputation, I deem my efforts unworthy thus no more updates will be made.

Megas

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Re: LRPD needs help!
« Reply #27 on: October 12, 2016, 07:07:19 AM »

We do not need another OP tax.  One (Aurora losing its 360 shields, and needs Front Shield Emitter to get them back) is more than enough.
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Morgan Rue

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Re: LRPD needs help!
« Reply #28 on: October 16, 2016, 05:17:39 PM »

For a (semi-)dedicated point defense ship that is supposed to be taking out missiles and fighters from long ranges and covering for other ships, Tacs should generally preform better. Generally, I run Tacs and IDPAI on most of my ships, and the ones I don't run Tacs on usually have no point defense. I tend to do fleet actions more than soloing things. Oh, other people already said this, and said it better.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2016, 05:19:24 PM by Morgan Rue »
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Megas

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Re: LRPD needs help!
« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2016, 06:51:19 AM »

There is a way to make LR PD laser better with its current stats - make it hit for hard flux!  I know... AI cannot defend against continuous hard flux buildup from beams, but LR PD is such a flux hog (more so than tac laser) that firing LR PD for long is unhealthy for many ships.
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