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Author Topic: Orbital Stations in Combat  (Read 105480 times)

borgrel

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Re: Orbital Stations in Combat
« Reply #90 on: September 24, 2016, 10:11:47 AM »

Awesome!



a small comment, which is in no way criticism:

getting sniped from 3 screen lengths away by the citadel ship is already a little annoying.....
please allow more zoom since things are getting bigger
(even if it is only situational - when ur in range of a station - or conditional - cruisers and capital ships can zoom out farther than frigates and destroyers)
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Thaago

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Re: Orbital Stations in Combat
« Reply #91 on: September 24, 2016, 11:32:22 AM »

Very exciting! Interesting to hear that officers can be on stations - raises a whole host of hype questions from which I will refrain...
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FooF

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Re: Orbital Stations in Combat
« Reply #92 on: September 24, 2016, 12:29:59 PM »

Welp. This was already the best (ahem...potential) update already, but now...?

I can't imagine the strength of the stations guarding core worlds, though, I must speculate: if you do take out the station(s) guarding major hubs, do those markets/planets become "vulnerable" in some way?



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Gothars

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Re: Orbital Stations in Combat
« Reply #93 on: September 24, 2016, 12:52:29 PM »

Yeah, I wonder about the whole dynamic of orbital stations. Are they active in any battle close to the planet, or just if you engage them directly? Will they be the first level of protection when attacking a planet, or are they all the defense there is? What happens to the market of a station when it is defeated? Can you blockade a station and lower its CR before battle? Is the faction controlling a planet always the faction controlling its orbital station?

I'm not sure if I even want answers to all these question at this point, or just find out for myself :)
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Sproginator

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Re: Orbital Stations in Combat
« Reply #94 on: September 24, 2016, 12:54:06 PM »

Much excite
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Alex

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Re: Orbital Stations in Combat
« Reply #95 on: September 24, 2016, 01:19:45 PM »

"Now, witness the firepower of this halfway decent but not entirely operational battlestation..? Hell, I don't know, just roll with it, okay?"

Precisely :)


What about a mechanic where troop transport ships carrying marines could dock with and board a disabled station?

Just in general, I'm not a fan of in-combat boarding. If it's already disabled, I think any such things should be handled in the campaign.


All that's needed to accompany the ISS Placeholder is the ISS Slightly Lopsided Isosceles Triangle and we'll have a complete defensive line!

;)

Let's not forget the ISS Unlikely to Survive.



and especially mine fields.

I can neither confirm nor deny that these were or were not a topic of discussion internally.

(There's a todo item somewhere, but it's such a gratuitous and potentially not workable feature that I'm not sure its priority is ever going to be high enough to do.)


I'm super excited for the new stuff, enough so to pull me out from lurking! :P

Mission accomplished :) Welcome to the forum!

What do you think of player commissioned orbital stations protecting a player outpost? It would have to be a massive investment, and it wouldn't be in the player's direct control but it could stand guard if you had a super valuable outpost you'd like to protect. Could these be a possibility or are player outposts generally so small they don't warrant such investments?

Well... this is another one of those "natural implications of the mechanics" that I don't really want to delve into because you never know just how things will turn out once you try them. Certainly something I'm thinking about, though.

One last thing that comes to mind, is that with all this new stuff coming it could take a while to  polish it up for public consumption. Now I know dates and times can be iffy with games and it's not my place to demand them, but do you feel you could share something in general about what you plan on doing before you even consider releasing the next public build? Are there still some secret features you are experimenting on, or are you going to focus mainly on polish for a while? No time frames, just something in general. (Feel free to skip this bit if I'm too prying :-X)

With the caveat that I'm allowed to change my mind: the way I'm thinking about it right now, there's one big feature to get in (plus lots of procgen and exploration stuff to wrap up). And, of course, lots of polish.

That feature is not outposts, btw - as much as I'd like to get them into this next release, and as much as it makes sense given the rest of the feature set, it would just end up taking too long with everything else. But, going to take stock along the way.



The big one is: Can modules be moved around? I know you loved Scy's Nemean Lion opening armor, so will it be possible to do that with the API? I see modules are spawned on top of "module" mounts, but those aren't movable (yet?). So if I manually move them via everyframe scripting will the game force-replace them on top of their mount?

Hadn't considered that, but easy enough to put in. Added ShipAPI.getModuleOffset(), which you can .set() to move it around relative to the slot. Aside from that, yes, the position is force-set every frame.

How are collision handled with the modules? Are they on an intermediary layer between ships and fighters or do they need bounds that do not touch their core? Do ships and asteroids collide directly with the modules or only with the core? If they do, are collision forces and weapon impacts automatically transmitted to the core? Can weapons on the core fire through a module? (that was one of the biggest issues with twigLib, most of the issues it currently has stems from this)

Modules can't collide with the body or with each other while they're attached to the body. Other stuff collides with both the body and the modules normally.

When a module detaches, it's able to collide with both the body and other modules, which generally causes it to fly off.

Weapons on both the body and the modules can not hit either the body or the modules.


Regarding collision forces, that's a great point - kind of forgot about that, truth be told. Changed it so that collision forces act on the body, as acting on the modules makes no sense since both their velocity and location get reset every frame anyway.


I suppose the module's AI is a fair bit simpler than a ship AI, but can they still use ship systems?

Yeah. They can also vent. It's actually just the ship AI, including collision avoidance checks etc, since those are needed to figure out shield use.

For something like a pure armor module, it'd probably make sense to provide a custom "do absolutely nothing" AI so that it doesn't use up CPU unnecessarily.


You said the modules take time to repair, that is nice but will the refit UI indicate that? With Debido we had a nice system in place (it is not working in 0.72 because I'm nowhere near his coding skills and messed up his stuff but it was a thing previously)
Spoiler
[close]
And how does the game handle repair cost? Are destroyed modules visible in campaign view?

Not really, beyond how the armor looks. IIRC it'd show up in the simulation, though.

Repair cost: I believe as long as any modules are repairing, it counts as if the ship was repairing.

Re: campaign view, destroyed modules will not show up.

How are modules stats handled in the ship codex info card? Are they added to the core stats? Or not displayed at all?

The stats aren't displayed at all, but the modules themselves are shown in the "Weapons" list, which is renamed to "Ordnance". So, a station will show its modules as its weapons, basically.

You can see the detailed stats if you go to refit the station/ship-with-modules and switch to that module by clicking on it.


I'm not sure this one has been asked, but do emp weapons hitting a module arc only withing said module of do they hit the core too? Do they also hit other modules?

They only arc within the same module.


This probably falls under the category of "a lot of work for virtually no reward", but what do you think of tugs moving these things around in battle?

Well, pretty much what you said :)



Now while I'm aware that you have perfectly good reasons not to be specific about the potential size of stations, would you be willing to comment on how much the engine can actually handle?
I mean if we are fighting a station that can dock the largest capital ships then they would have to be at least 10x the size of anything in the game at the moment. It could potentially cover 25-35% of an entire big combat map. Are units that large even possible?

One thing to keep in mind is that the combat scale isn't *really* to scale in terms of the campaign. For example, fighters are bigger than they would be, battleships are relatively smaller. So, say, a station that's 3-4x the size of a battleship would be appropriate representing a "station battleships can dock with in the campaign" in combat. Stuff in combat has to be scaled so that gameplay works, basically.

Regarding what the engine could handle, that's such a tricky question. In theory, you could probably make a station that's half the size of the map, provided you built it mostly out of modules, with the "body" sprite being something sane. Would this be fun to play against? Would the AI be able to handle fighting it reasonably well? I really can't say without trying it.

HYPE TRAIN !!

Nice :) Would've gotten bonus points for some ascii art in there, but I'll take it.


getting sniped from 3 screen lengths away by the citadel ship is already a little annoying.....
please allow more zoom since things are getting bigger
(even if it is only situational - when ur in range of a station - or conditional - cruisers and capital ships can zoom out farther than frigates and destroyers)

I actually ended up adding 1 more level of combat zoom a while back, so, yeah.

That said, stations are a bit of an exception since you always know where they're going to be, they don't move, and so it ought to be less "annoying" and more "devastating" and "part of the difficulty of fighting them". I do get what you're saying, though.


Very exciting! Interesting to hear that officers can be on stations - raises a whole host of hype questions from which I will refrain...

An uncommon degree of restraint :)



I can't imagine the strength of the stations guarding core worlds, though, I must speculate: if you do take out the station(s) guarding major hubs, do those markets/planets become "vulnerable" in some way?
Yeah, I wonder about the whole dynamic of orbital stations. Are they active in any battle close to the planet, or just if you engage them directly? Will they be the first level of protection when attacking a planet, or are they all the defense there is? What happens to the market of a station when it is defeated? Can you blockade a station and lower its CR before battle? Is the faction controlling a planet always the faction controlling its orbital station?

I'm not sure if I even want answers to all these question at this point, or just find out for myself :)

Yeah, this is all stuff that's purely speculation at this point. I mean, the mechanics point towards these types of things, right? But they're currently not in the game, and I wouldn't be surprised if these specific kinds of things were not in the next release. All important design questions to be answered in due time.
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Gothars

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Re: Orbital Stations in Combat
« Reply #96 on: September 24, 2016, 01:44:02 PM »

and especially mine fields.

I can neither confirm nor deny that these were or were not a topic of discussion internally.

(There's a todo item somewhere, but it's such a gratuitous and potentially not workable feature that I'm not sure its priority is ever going to be high enough to do.)

Maybe the simplest way to implement them would be station-exclusive one-shot minelayer weapons which just float out Piranha style bombs with infinite flight duration.





BTW, for everyone who, like me, has a sudden desire to pilot a small ship in combat against screen-filling, overwhelmingly powerful stations which have armed modules that you can shoot off, let me present you with "Warning Forever" :)


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Midnight Kitsune

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Re: Orbital Stations in Combat
« Reply #97 on: September 24, 2016, 02:02:31 PM »

BTW, for everyone who, like me, has a sudden desire to pilot a small ship in combat against screen-filling, overwhelmingly powerful stations which have armed modules that you can shoot off, let me present you with "Warning Forever" :)
Ahhhh yes, Warning Forever! IIRC that was the basis for Battleships Forever
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Dri

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Re: Orbital Stations in Combat
« Reply #98 on: September 24, 2016, 03:45:06 PM »

Will modules more towards the center be able to fire over the ones in front of them? I'd imagine larger stations would have several "layers" of modules so the inner modules not being able to fire due to the outer ones being in the way could really hurt a battlestation damage output.
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Gothars

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Re: Orbital Stations in Combat
« Reply #99 on: September 24, 2016, 03:53:24 PM »

Ahhhh yes, Warning Forever! IIRC that was the basis for Battleships Forever

You do remember correctly :) It's freeware and quite fun.


Will modules more towards the center be able to fire over the ones in front of them?

Yes, they will:

Quote from: Alex
Weapons on both the body and the modules can not hit either the body or the modules.
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Dri

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Re: Orbital Stations in Combat
« Reply #100 on: September 24, 2016, 08:58:16 PM »

It stands to reason that stations would be able to to store and load a great deal more missiles and such. Will there be a special hullmod for stations that boosts missile weapon ammo?
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Sy

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Re: Orbital Stations in Combat
« Reply #101 on: September 24, 2016, 09:56:26 PM »

That feature is not outposts, btw - as much as I'd like to get them into this next release, and as much as it makes sense given the rest of the feature set, it would just end up taking too long with everything else. But, going to take stock along the way.
interesting... so i'm guessing the skill revamp will also (probably) not make it into the coming update? since you mentioned a while back you'd like to wait until it becomes clearer what the industry part of a new skill system would need to include.

either way, i'm glad to hear you plan on releasing the update before doing outposts. there's already so much cool stuff coming that i'm really looking forward to!
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Cyan Leader

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Re: Orbital Stations in Combat
« Reply #102 on: September 24, 2016, 10:22:31 PM »


That feature is not outposts, btw - as much as I'd like to get them into this next release, and as much as it makes sense given the rest of the feature set, it would just end up taking too long with everything else. But, going to take stock along the way.

I can't imagine the strength of the stations guarding core worlds, though, I must speculate: if you do take out the station(s) guarding major hubs, do those markets/planets become "vulnerable" in some way?
Yeah, I wonder about the whole dynamic of orbital stations. Are they active in any battle close to the planet, or just if you engage them directly? Will they be the first level of protection when attacking a planet, or are they all the defense there is? What happens to the market of a station when it is defeated? Can you blockade a station and lower its CR before battle? Is the faction controlling a planet always the faction controlling its orbital station?

I'm not sure if I even want answers to all these question at this point, or just find out for myself :)

Yeah, this is all stuff that's purely speculation at this point. I mean, the mechanics point towards these types of things, right? But they're currently not in the game, and I wouldn't be surprised if these specific kinds of things were not in the next release. All important design questions to be answered in due time.

Humm, seems like that the main campaign functions of stations won't be in the game until 0.9 if it needs that much refinement, but I suppose it makes sense to include them now because exploration or some other feature requires them, right?

If that's the case then I suggest implementing only basic campaign functions for fighting stations so we can test their combat. Something like simply reducing a market stability if you win. I can be wrong here but it seems to be a bit of a waste to try to implement a system that will have to be replaced once outposts are in and require severe campaign adjustments.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2016, 10:25:01 PM by Cyan Leader »
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Clockwork Owl

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Re: Orbital Stations in Combat
« Reply #103 on: September 24, 2016, 11:14:49 PM »

Hmm, how about a 'modility' module(for modded in capitals)? I can see a workaround with speed/maneuverability boosting hullmod built into a module, but can you place engine flame on a module and will it work correctly?
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Tartiflette

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Re: Orbital Stations in Combat
« Reply #104 on: September 25, 2016, 02:35:36 AM »

Thanks for all those answers, that took care to all of my concerns. I suppose Twiglib will retire entirely with the next update and I'll just have to make a few tweaks with hullmods scripts. (and the other modders will finally stop to hate me for all the extra work induced by making their scripts TwigLib compatible, which is nice)

[edit] By the way, there are a few hooks in Twiglib that proved really super useful for a lot scripts, so in case you didn't already thought about them: getCore(), getModules() in combat are the big ones. If they are accessible from the campaign layer too that is a nice bonus. I could see some use to the ability to detach the modules while alive (for those carrier ships suggested before) but that might be a little too much to ask.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2016, 02:55:07 AM by Tartiflette »
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