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Author Topic: Aurora Balance  (Read 53597 times)

Megas

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Re: Aurora Balance
« Reply #60 on: September 16, 2016, 04:50:31 AM »

The elite high-tech frigates - Tempest, Scarab, Hyperion - have no competition; they are also extremely expensive and very rare.  Omen is among the worst ships in the game, and Wolf, ever since it lost Omni shield, has been a bit mediocre for its deployment costs - not bad, but not great either.  Wolf is one of those good early-game, mostly obsolete by endgame ships.  Lasher, on the other hand, is cheap and has a clear niche even in endgame - kill weak stuff quickly and cheaply.

I think Enforcer is about even with Medusa.  I have an easier time using Medusa over Enforcer (phase skimmer helps with pilot error).  If I did not configure my fleet to be a toolbox of playerships, I would bring more Enforcers for AI use (and save the Medusa for playership use).  Also, Medusa needs rare weapons to shine.  Enforcer can get by with more accessible ballistics.

Cruisers are good.  Dominator has near capital-grade firepower.  Eagle is more efficient at killing small stuff, but it can deal with and kite capitals.  Apogee is a hybrid that is a better combat ship than Aurora.

Paragon is a worthwhile capital that is very easy to use.  Onslaught is better, but it requires many max skills and willingness to use exploits (e.g., corner camping to prevent flanking, vent spam) to do it.

Since fighters are useless, anything with a flight deck is useless, except maybe Gemini due to cargo capacity and decent armament for its size.
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TaLaR

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Re: Aurora Balance
« Reply #61 on: September 16, 2016, 07:37:54 AM »

@Megas:
I think, I value skimmer system much higher than you, which raises value I assign to Wolf and Medusa. It has quite many uses:
- gain flux advantage (dodged blaster shot/kinetics vs having it hit shield)
- quickly catch phase ships/skimmers/anything else that tries to avoid you.
- limited shield bypass (by jumping through enemy, can be useful as early Wolf play)
- mostly ignore these sneaky salamanders despite having no PD or rear shields (for Wolf, unless missiles are massed of course). Just jump as missile is about to hit.
- moderate long distance speed boost (though skimmer isn't really good as that)
- and yes, having a panic button is much better than not having one (which is sorry state most other ships are always condemned to).

AI Wolves are of course less impressive, mostly usable as beam annoyance.

I have a bit of issue with AI Enforcers - almost everything about this ship makes it good in under AI control, except it's system. Burn drive assisted suicide is too prevalent for my taste.

Well, maybe I was too harsh on CRs. I just usually go straight to Capitals from DE, since it results in same burn speed. Eagle is usable, both AI and player. Dominator is more for player (same burn drive problem as above).
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Schwartz

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Re: Aurora Balance
« Reply #62 on: September 16, 2016, 10:05:44 AM »

Not for long, assuming what Alex posted on page 1 that he reduced flux capacity by 20% sticks.  80% of 15000 is 12000, same as current Apogee.

Ouch. The Apogee really didn't need another advantage over the Aurora.
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Megas

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Re: Aurora Balance
« Reply #63 on: September 16, 2016, 10:56:59 AM »

The thing about capitals is they eat and guzzle much more supplies and fuel than a cruiser.  Tugs guzzle more fuel than most ships.  Capital needs to punch much harder than a cruiser to be worth a tug.  Fortunately, Onslaught and Paragon deliver.  Sadly, the rest do not.  If Onslaught and Paragon were not as powerful as they were, I probably would use two cruisers instead.  Similarly, that is why Venture is so bad.  It needs a tug to keep up with other cruisers.

@ TaLaR:  I am well aware of phase skimmer's benefits.  That is one reason why I prefer Medusa over Enforcer as a playership.  In Medusa's case, that and the ability to use ballistics mitigates general high-tech weaknesses.  As for AI, they seem to perform about the same, Medusa may be slightly better.
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DatonKallandor

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Re: Aurora Balance
« Reply #64 on: September 16, 2016, 01:42:56 PM »

Capital needs to punch much harder than a cruiser to be worth a tug. 
They really don't. Your fetish for high burn speed does not mean capital ships need to factor in a tug into their stats. You might have a ton of solo-flagship experience because that's all you play and care about so you know the tactical layer really well, but it also means your strategic layer opinions are seriously wacky and shouldn't be taken as the norm to balance around.
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Cik

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Re: Aurora Balance
« Reply #65 on: September 16, 2016, 02:10:53 PM »

balancing capitals around a tug is dumb, but what's probably even more dumb is that battlecruisers are as slow as onslaught/paragon.

conquest and other future battlecruisers should have the same burn as a cruiser TBH. then it wouldn't be a problem.
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ANGRYABOUTELVES

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Re: Aurora Balance
« Reply #66 on: September 16, 2016, 02:17:58 PM »

Hmm. I actually ended up looking at the Aurora a couple of days ago. My feeling on it is that it doesn't fit the high-tech paradigm of "lower ranged weapons, but able to pick its fights". It certainly has the "lower ranged weapons" part down, but being a cruiser, was just too slow.

A natural solution here seems to be a mobility system. So: "Plasma Jets", a roughly 3 second version of maneuvering jets, but with a 125 unit speed bonus and less turn rate.

That felt pretty good - it can use the system to duck in and out of range easily, and "lunge" at frigates or destroyers, but it felt like it made the Aurora a bit too powerful. So, reduced flux capacity by 20%, to make darting in and out more of an interesting commitment. Also reduced the deployment cost to 30, and bumped up to top speed to 80.

Overall, this feels good to me. In AI hands, beats a Dominator 1-1 but in a fairly close fight. In player hands, it can be quite aggressive and is fun to use.
I really don't think reducing the flux capacity of the Aurora is a good idea. It already has a bad shield flux/dam ratio for a high-tech ship, it doesn't need to be made even more fragile. Especially considering the Apogee still exists, with its 0.6 flux/dam ratio and Large Energy/Missile mounts. More mobility is good, but since the Aurora is cruiser-sized and has a very large shield bubble, there's only so much mobility can do. With how bad the Aurora is in 7.2a, I'd feel a lot more comfortable if you erred on the side of potentially too powerful now and maybe nerf it post-patch rather than nerf it before the players can get their hands on it to test it out.

And, from the way you describe it, the new Aurora is still going to suffer from role overlap with the Doom; using the Plasma Jets to duck in and out of range like you can with a Phase Cloak. I'm not sure a non-phase ship can ever be comparable to a phase ship in the burst-and-run department, so the Aurora could end up just being a worse Doom that costs fewer supplies. High-tech ships really need a tanky line cruiser, and the Aurora is the only ship that could fill that role. The Doom can't tank because it's a Phase ship, and the Apogee is supposedly an exploration/utility craft.

I know I've suggested something like this a while ago, but have you considered just reverting the Aurora's Medium Synergy hardpoint back to a Large Missile hardpoint and leaving it's flux stats/supply cost alone? Maybe swap the Apogee's shield flux/dam with the Aurora's?
« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 02:56:25 PM by ANGRYABOUTELVES »
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Morgan Rue

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Re: Aurora Balance
« Reply #67 on: September 16, 2016, 03:21:46 PM »

My thoughts on High Tech ships vs Low Tech ships:
High Tech ships should be faster, have better shields, more flux capacity/dissipation/venting and longer max deployment times, making them better at harassing and repeated engagements, whereas Low Tech ships have much heavier armor, worse/no shield systems and lower maneuverability, but longer range, higher initial impact and more flux efficient weapons, making them better at decisive engagements(Hegemony Doctrine) and pushing/holding locations. Low Tech ships should try to corner and crush High Tech ones while High Tech focus on repeatedly engaging and wearing down their enemies.
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Dauntless.

Gothars

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Re: Aurora Balance
« Reply #68 on: September 16, 2016, 03:25:54 PM »

If the new Aurora is really not powerful enough, another option would be a combined mobility/damage system. Basically just the new plasma jet and the old energy focus combined.

But then again, Alex already had to nerf it, so it can't be that bad anymore, can it?
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Wyvern

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Re: Aurora Balance
« Reply #69 on: September 16, 2016, 03:35:34 PM »

...another option would be a combined mobility/damage system...
Aurora with Temporal Shell... now that would be a monster of a ship...
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ANGRYABOUTELVES

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Re: Aurora Balance
« Reply #70 on: September 16, 2016, 03:49:12 PM »

If the new Aurora is really not powerful enough, another option would be a combined mobility/damage system. Basically just the new plasma jet and the old energy focus combined.

But then again, Alex already had to nerf it, so it can't be that bad anymore, can it?
It would still be stepping on the Doom's toes. If they can both only do burst-and-run, one of them is going to be better at it and the other is going to be obsolete.

He did the same sort of thing in 7.2a by changing the large hardpoint to a medium hardpoint to balance out the synergy slot-type buff, so it totally could be. ¯\_ :) _/¯

Actually, the more I think about this, the clearer and more disturbing the parallels to 7.2 become. The Aurora is getting a "buff" that pushes it into a role the Doom is-and-will-always-be better at, and a nerf to the role it should be good at and that people actually want to use it in. In 7.2 it got Synergy slots so it could have more forward guns, but lost the Large Missile mount so it can't really be a missile boat anymore. It also doesn't have enough flux dissipation to sustainably fire all those guns without soft-overloading itself and energy weaponry is inherently worse than ballistics, so it's forced into a burst-and-run role, leaning heavily on HEF and AM blasters. Now it's gaining more mobility and a ship system that makes it even more mobile, but is losing the absurd flux capacity that let it slug it out in direct combat, as well as the HEF ship system that let its medium energy weaponry compete with ballistic cruisers for short periods of time and synergized well with the AM blaster. It's still got that bad shield damage to flux ratio, so it's now more fragile than the Apogee, a scientific exploration vessel, and still less mobile than the Doom.

The more I think about this, the more I think it's a bad idea. The Aurora is not the Doom, will never be the Doom, and should not try to be the Doom.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 05:08:20 PM by ANGRYABOUTELVES »
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Wyvern

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Re: Aurora Balance
« Reply #71 on: September 16, 2016, 05:02:47 PM »

Comparing the Aurora to the Doom is actually really interesting, and raises the question "What if we gave the Aurora a phase cloak as a ship system so it had both phase cloak and shields?"

...In general, I prefer the Doom at the moment; being able to load up four light needlers makes it vastly better at pushing a target's flux up at range, and the phasing cloak is pretty much perfectly designed to complement high power but inefficient weapons like the heavy blaster, giving you periods of invulnerability to let your soft flux go down again.
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Alex

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Re: Aurora Balance
« Reply #72 on: September 16, 2016, 08:40:11 PM »

And, from the way you describe it, the new Aurora is still going to suffer from role overlap with the Doom; using the Plasma Jets to duck in and out of range like you can with a Phase Cloak. I'm not sure a non-phase ship can ever be comparable to a phase ship in the burst-and-run department, so the Aurora could end up just being a worse Doom that costs fewer supplies.

I see what you're saying, but in practice I think the differences are significant. I mean, "dart in, do damage, back off" is the high-tech (and phase) thing in the first place, so just the fact that this is how they both go about things isn't cause for concern. The details of how they play are very different even just due to using phase cloak vs shields, other differences aside. I mean, one might make the same point about the Medusa and the Harbinger, say.

On a related note: the new fighters basically hard-counter phase ships and the Doom in particular, where the Aurora does quite well against them.

High-tech ships really need a tanky line cruiser, and the Aurora is the only ship that could fill that role. The Doom can't tank because it's a Phase ship, and the Apogee is supposedly an exploration/utility craft.

That's working from the assumption that the high-tech lineup needs to have ships for every role, and I'm not sure I subscribe to that. If one wants a tanky line cruiser, the Dominator does that job already, right? I don't particularly want to have almost-the-same ships across all epochs. I do get where you're coming from assuming that, but I think if we went down that route too much the outcome would be a bit boring.

I think the Aurora is about as tanky as a high-tech line cruiser needs to be, given that it picks its fights. More tanky than that would be outside the high-tech paradigm. This, incidentally, is what drove the 20% flux reduction - without it, it was entirely too good at not taking any damage at all.

(Naturally, there are high-tech ships already outside that paradigm, but if anything, I'd like to shift things more towards it, and a core ship like the Aurora should fit into it.)

I know I've suggested something like this a while ago, but have you considered just reverting the Aurora's Medium Synergy hardpoint back to a Large Missile hardpoint and leaving it's flux stats/supply cost alone? Maybe swap the Apogee's shield flux/dam with the Aurora's?

Definitely not. A large missile slot would dominate the refit options.

And the Apogee badly needs a nerf, so while I understand the comparisons, it probably doesn't make for the best reference point.

Finally, in terms of mobility compared to the Doom, it's fairly similar. Its top speed is actually a bit higher - 80 base, +125 from jets, +50 from 0-flux boost = 255. The Doom's is 75 * 3 = 225. Now, the Doom can sustain it longer (and the Aurora will usually not have the 0-flux boost), but the Doom will also build a lot of flux in the process, where the Aurora won't. I think saying the Doom's mobility is better is a mistake - in some ways it's better, in other ways it's worse, with major tactical differences.

This just goes back to my earlier point; considering the ship roles to be the same just because they both prefer hit and run tactics is probably a mistake. Most ships in the game will prefer to do this vs the right opponent, it's just not something that's a unique hull property in the first place, but rather a commonplace high-level tactic with a world of possibilities in execution. It's almost at the same level as "these ships deal damage to their opponent, so their roles overlap". Not quite, mind you, but close :)

All that said, I'm not saying it's perfect right now. Definitely need to spend some more time with it. The main thing, as far as I'm concerned, is that it's now *fun* to pilot. A few more tweaks to its power are no big deal, if need be.
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Dri

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Re: Aurora Balance
« Reply #73 on: September 16, 2016, 09:06:02 PM »

Was the removal of the Apogee's range boosting drones the only nerf it will receive?
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Alex

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Re: Aurora Balance
« Reply #74 on: September 16, 2016, 09:08:12 PM »

Not sure, haven't actually touched the Apogee yet, but definitely planning to. Going to look at the shield strength, too.

Also have half a mind to give the Odyssey the new plasma jets system, but not entirely decided on that.
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