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Author Topic: Fighter Redesign  (Read 148997 times)

Wyvern

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Re: Fighter Redesign
« Reply #90 on: August 25, 2016, 04:29:22 PM »

Made a thread over in suggestions for further discussion of the Tempest's drone & hypothetical replacement ship system, since that's a bit tangential to the blog post.
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Dri

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Re: Fighter Redesign
« Reply #91 on: August 25, 2016, 04:47:16 PM »

Is David going to tweak the Talon's sprite on account of it now having a missile launcher? Have any older ships received tweaks to their sprites here and there?
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David

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Re: Fighter Redesign
« Reply #92 on: August 25, 2016, 04:51:37 PM »

Is David going to tweak the Talon's sprite on account of it now having a missile launcher? Have any older ships received tweaks to their sprites here and there?

You have no idea. :-X
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Dri

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Re: Fighter Redesign
« Reply #93 on: August 25, 2016, 05:00:02 PM »

Well I surely do want to have an idea, you tease!

Haha :D
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CrashToDesktop

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Re: Fighter Redesign
« Reply #94 on: August 25, 2016, 05:10:13 PM »

That's an interesting idea, and something that has actually existed in WW2 in the form of CAM ships - catapult aircraft merchant ships. Basically the Bristish slapped a fighter catapult on a trading vessel to afford them protection against long range air raids.
Not only that, but larger ships like Battleships also had catapult-launched fighters, either to combat other fighters or for recon.  Many of the US Battleships from WWII, like the North Carolina, had them and used them on a regular basis. :)
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xenoargh

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Re: Fighter Redesign
« Reply #95 on: August 25, 2016, 05:55:53 PM »

Overall, I like the ideas expressed in the new changes.  The devil's truly in the details, however:

1.  If a Talon's worth 0, and a Broadsword is worth 8, where does that put the fighters that are actually almost vaguely worth using, like Lightnings? 

I think that fighters, in general, should get re-balanced pretty heavily before they're assigned numbers.  For quite some time, it's been rather obvious that most fighters simply don't have a distinct role where they're superior and distinguished enough.

For example, there isn't an Interceptor with a Beam that can effectively counter enemy fighters.  There is a fighter that was intended to have that role, but it's no longer effective. 

In general, the concept of Interceptors is very much realized in the breach in the current build; instead of having some pretty good hard-counter fighters that are rubbish for most other tasks, we have "interceptors" that can't intercept or take real damage vs. general-purpose fighters that don't have significant disadvantages.  Thoughts on this:  perhaps an "interceptor" has greatly superior speed and a good rate of turn, but cannot kite and has largely fixed-forward weapons, so that they're good for killing individual fighters and perhaps for focus-killing a Frigate, but are pretty much junk otherwise, because of PD?

I'd also like to see a new type of Fighter that is specifically intended for scouting; this is something that's a distinctive role IRL.

2.  I'd really like to see shield-less fighters be rarer and have more distinctive reasons for existing at all, largely because of how moot this entire part of the game becomes if you have enough Tac Lasers around.  This is a design relic from the early days where shield-less ships were much more common that I think should be addressed.

3.  The biggest core-concept thing that I didn't see distinctly addressed was "will Fighters still consume Crew at a rate that makes them fundamentally un-attractive?".

4.  I like the idea of the carrier controlling the Wings very much; I like the burst-launch idea very much.  Here the details are going to matter considerably, however; if it's a generic "generation score" and it roughly corresponds to the carrier's total power... what's to stop a player from opti-maxing around the best fighters that can be burst-launched, in terms of alpha?  Why bother having 6 Wings, for example, when you can just have 2 that are really good that you can regen at will?

On the converse side, how this gets balanced for the one-Wing carriers is a bit tricky.  Basically, both the burst rate and the OP costs make for a weird mechanic.  "Oh, I can't have a Gemini with a decent Wing, because OPs say it's not viable" doesn't really sound all that Fun; it'll tend to funnel players even more than how it is now, where a lot of the carriers don't make sense to use.

5.  How the AI strategically uses its fighters in large fights should be addressed.  Essentially, I think that it'd be great if the AI would use fighters to scout and to initiate hostilities quite often, rather than the gradual mixed bag of Frigates that are faster than Fighters mixed up with other stuff that happens in Vanilla.

This ties into other things about the larger battles; in general, a larger battlefield size might heighten the value of fighters, as well as fundamentally addressing their major issue, which is that they simply must move faster than other ship classes to be all that relevant.


Those are the major details I think I'd look at here; the overall plan really looks very solid and I like where this is going, but this is a feature where a balance pass would really make it feel ready, I suspect.
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Wyvern

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Re: Fighter Redesign
« Reply #96 on: August 25, 2016, 05:58:29 PM »

Finally figured out why the LPC (Limited Production Chip) acronym was feeling just a bit off for me in a Starsector context:

Thermal
Pulse
Cannon

...Come to think of it, a Lesser Pulse Cannon would still be a pretty neat weapon.

Okay.  Now that I've figured that out, I think it's stopped bothering me.
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Machine

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Re: Fighter Redesign
« Reply #97 on: August 25, 2016, 06:00:16 PM »

The update seems quite impressive so far, I'm eagerly awaiting for the next version, with a little fear since it seems that I will need to rethink some parts of my personal mod.

This is probably not the place for this, but... currently I'm using a script to spawn a drone wing when a specific weapon is fired. One of the weapons using the script is a drone rack, which only has 1 ammo and gets you a very disposable wing of drones (actually a fighter wing).
The question would be... since the spawned drones would not have an attached carrier to get orders from, would that mean that they would attack (a target at random?) and then flee the battle, or maybe just flee?. I'm not worried about not being able to set targets, I would even prefer it that way, but I would like for them to just be set to fight until death instead of fleeing after a while.

To try put it back in the context of the base game. Meanwhile fleeing after your carrier is destroyed sounds sensible for crewed fighters as they would want to rendezvous with the rest of your non deployed fleet, it is not so for drones as they would have nothing to lose, so they should fight to their "death" or maybe deactivate after a while instead of fleeing.
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sycspysycspy

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Re: Fighter Redesign
« Reply #98 on: August 25, 2016, 06:49:39 PM »

+1 for this, hope this update would reduce the chance of chasing a Heron across the map.
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Phearlock

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Re: Fighter Redesign
« Reply #99 on: August 25, 2016, 11:16:48 PM »

https://gfycat.com/AmbitiousIndelibleEeve

Saturating a targets' PD system with missiles so that fighters/bombers have an easier time getting in close? Yes thank you I would love more UEF tactics in my starsector. (Gosh I need more Blue Planet in my life)
« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 11:20:37 PM by Phearlock »
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Auraknight

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Re: Fighter Redesign
« Reply #100 on: August 26, 2016, 01:08:25 AM »

On the fence about actuially commenting this, but I figure why not.
How will this work out with fleet limits, and preformance?
After all, where as a fighter-heavy fleet now would have 10 of it's 25 slots for fighters, all the slots will hve carriers instead, each with 1-3+ flight decks, plus any flight decks the other ships have. You're adding so many entities and projectiles to the mix XD

I was personally thinking of a 25-ship fleet of dedicated carriers, with nothing but Broadswords, just to get The MYSTICAL SPACE FLARE TYPHOON.
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TrashMan

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Re: Fighter Redesign
« Reply #101 on: August 26, 2016, 02:22:15 AM »

This doesn't sound good to me at all.

Infinite ammo for weapons. Infinite fighters. Forced "gimmicks" (the broadsword) to make it work.


I do like fighters being assigned to specific ships, but loosing that ship than also means loosing all of those fighters, even if the fighters are in space and there's other carriers that can take them on?

Fighters not costing crew is also BS. They are drones then, not fighters.
If you want to keep casualties down, you can have a chance of ejecting (that can be further increased with modules and skills) that every time a fighter is destroyed rolls to see if the pilot survived. Those that did are returned to the crew at the end of the fight.


Not to mention, the though of simply pumping out fighters ad infinitum is stupid in itself. From what magical pocketspace does the material and crew come from? Logistics and attrition loose meaning.

Why not handle it like real carriers? They Ready groups* and launch speed. You might carry 100 fighters, but you can't launch them all at once. There is a limit to how fast your carrier can prepare and launch a fighter (group).

This alone makes interceptors more viable, since they can create a window for the bombers.


Quote
*
Ready Five, also referred to as Alert Five in the film Top Gun, is a condition of high alert for aircraft crews on the flight deck of an aircraft carrier, in which they are ready to launch within five minutes. Fighter aircraft are placed on the steam catapult complete with flight crew, armament, and fuel, ready to defend the carrier battle group from any unforeseen threat.

Flight crews sometimes dread being assigned Ready Five, as they can be ordered to remain there for hours on end, in addition to the high probability of being sent into combat on short notice.
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Gothars

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Re: Fighter Redesign
« Reply #102 on: August 26, 2016, 03:40:22 AM »

You're adding so many entities and projectiles to the mix XD

As an old Homeworld fan, I love me a good fighter cloud swarming ;D  And since you don't control them all directly it should be quite manageable, I imagine.



This doesn't sound good to me at all.

Let me address some points then, cause I think your dislike might be rooted in misunderstanding.


I do like fighters being assigned to specific ships, but loosing that ship than also means loosing all of those fighters, even if the fighters are in space and there's other carriers that can take them on?

Mh, it doesn't mean that? Fighter retreat a while after their carrier has been destroyed. The fighter LPC can be potentially salvaged from the wreck to produce more fighters later.  
Since fighters are continually manufactured, it wouldn't make sense for fighters to land on other carriers, they would just be getting in the way. Every carrier is at maximum capacity already (yay, efficient!).


Fighters not costing crew is also BS. They are drones then, not fighters.

They do cost crew - the carrier's crew. Up to 2/3 of it to be specific. The only fighters that are not costing crew are indeed drones (and were originally intended to be).

Not to mention, the though of simply pumping out fighters ad infinitum is stupid in itself. From what magical pocketspace does the material and crew come from? Logistics and attrition loose meaning.

The are not produced ad infinitum, only until the carrier's Combat Readiness (CR) is depleted. CR has the exact purpose of representing logistics and attrition. The material comes from supplies that are used to (re-)generate CR before/after the battle, while the crew comes, as said, from the carrier.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2016, 03:47:13 AM by Gothars »
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Tartiflette

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Re: Fighter Redesign
« Reply #103 on: August 26, 2016, 03:57:33 AM »

Ninja-ed, posting anyway ><

Infinite ammo for weapons. Infinite fighters. Forced "gimmicks" (the broadsword) to make it work.
Hardly a gimmick, you can already send Talons as cannon fodders to distract PD. Some fighters received a flare system that makes them slightly more efficient (and survivable) when doing that since you can't deploy as many wings anymore.

Quote
I do like fighters being assigned to specific ships, but loosing that ship than also means loosing all of those fighters, even if the fighters are in space and there's other carriers that can take them on?
Fighters continue to fight if their carrier is destroyed, but they retreat when they need to land. Lore wise, fighters always have been built on-board carriers by a mini autofactory that need DRMed blueprints. This change finally make the mechanic reflect what always has been canon.

Quote
Fighters not costing crew is also BS. They are drones then, not fighters.
Fighters do cost crew with only two "drones" wings exceptions. The losses aren't linear though as some pilots might eject successfully.

Quote
Not to mention, the though of simply pumping out fighters ad infinitum is stupid in itself. From what magical pocketspace does the material and crew come from? Logistics and attrition loose meaning.
The cost is wrapped up withing the Carrier's deployment cost like any weapon ammo, but I'll concede that it isn't ideal. (in my suggestion carriers lost some CR for each fighter rebuilt) Still it makes more sense than the current "pump out any fighter from any carrier at full speed all the time until for some reason you suddenly can't".

Quote
Why not handle it like real carriers? They Ready groups* and launch speed. You might carry 100 fighters, but you can't launch them all at once. There is a limit to how fast your carrier can prepare and launch a fighter (group).

This alone makes interceptors more viable, since they can create a window for the bombers.
Unlimited replacements aside, that's exactly what is going on. Carriers need time to replenish losses, and the more losses the longer it takes. They launch them in waves, can only support a limited amount of them, and exploit windows of opportunity in the enemy defense so I'm not sure what you would change.
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Gothars

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Re: Fighter Redesign
« Reply #104 on: August 26, 2016, 04:13:22 AM »

Quote
(Why not use flux instead of a new meter? That’d be nice in theory, but would require fine-grained controls over which fighter wings get replacements, much like weapon autofire can be controlled. This, I think, is too much in terms of control complexity, especially as a carrier still has weapons to manage.)

So, I have to ask: Why is that?

Would it not be sufficient when replacing fighters on "engage" would produce hard flux, while replacing fighters on "regroup" wouldn't? Venting might toggle and lock "regroup" for a time. And a higher hard flux level would then reduce replacement speed.  
While it would of course be tactically advantageous (if too stressful) to be able to control individual wings, the same is also true for the current system. And if that control is not necessary for "replacement rate", why would it be for flux?

The advantage of using hard flux (besides not introducing a new stat) would be that a carrier could be slowed in it's fighter production just by shooting at it's shields. I feel that is a mechanic that might be needed to allow ships that are not equipped for anti-fighter combat to help against fighter heavy fleets, without the need to be able to outright disable a carrier.

There's probably a catch here, but atm I don't see it.







- Since flight decks are now "weapons", can they be disabled by EMP or damage? That could allow some interesting counter-play strategies and avoid the daggers launch, daggers fire, daggers dock cycle when the carrier is directly under attack.

They can't. I don't think this would be a good idea because 1) flight decks are often "inside" the hull where it's hard to hit them and 2) they're automatically generated on ships that don't have them (i.e. w/ a converted hangar) and the launch points can be outside the hull, so that'd just be weird. It looks ok since the fighters fade in and get bigger as they launch, but wouldn't be so good for damage.

How about disabling flight decks randomly if the hull/armor itself receives EMP damage? Reasoning as above, it would be nice if fighter production could be slowed by attacking the carrier.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2016, 06:26:22 AM by Gothars »
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