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Author Topic: Fighter Redesign  (Read 149137 times)

Gothars

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Re: Fighter Redesign
« Reply #225 on: August 29, 2016, 01:26:02 PM »

nothing leads me to believe that they will be any more effective

Well, if the person who has actually played with the new system ensures you they are effective, and you simply don't believe that, there's not much point in arguing further. You'll just have to wait and see for yourself.

pay the maintenance for any fighters destroyed
This is not the case btw., fighters are free.


It goes back to that whole point about fighters scaling non-linearly, but this time on a per-carrier scale.

I'm really looking forward to seeing something like a Astral strike in comparison with a Condor. Well, I'm looking forward to seeing much more coordinated fighter strikes in general :)


One more thing about the tactical fighter control thing (since we've been talking about it so much): for me it's a mostly theoretical loss. While I'm aware how it works in principle atm, it takes a lot of time and effort to set up and still most often fails. That mostly due to the relatively slow fighter speed and the fast changing battlespace. When your fighters reach their rally point its often already obsolete. I imagine I'll be using the new system much more naturally.





I played a bit of the carrier gameplay on the weekend

*envious*
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Ghoti

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Re: Fighter Redesign
« Reply #226 on: August 29, 2016, 01:30:22 PM »

Cik. Look man. This blog post constitutes a change in mechanics, which *requires* a change in balance. Fighters are getting reworked, so they're not going to look and act how you're used to them looking and acting, and they're not going to cost how you're used to them costing.

I know where you're coming from, fighters are awesome... but they're frustratingly underwhelming in current starsector. I firmly believe we're all on the same page on this. You're thinking that fighters have gotten to the state they have because Alex wanted them there, thus, the next update to them won't "fix" them.

If that were true, this rework wouldn't be happening.

I played a bit of the carrier gameplay on the weekend while touching up some fighter sprites

...

wtb: one time machine.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2016, 01:32:59 PM by Ghoti »
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Cik

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Re: Fighter Redesign
« Reply #227 on: August 29, 2016, 01:45:48 PM »

of course there is no other option but to wait and see, but what i hear from the horse's mouth as it were does not make me optimistic. all i need is one line "this should bring fighters up to par" or something like that. even some re-assurance "i will eventually look at the strength of fighters" would be fine. waiting does not bother me. instead i get that my favorite part of the game is a support weapon (and indeed a carrier's main armament) is now a support weapon and that they shouldn't be attacking things alone for some reason, even though literally every other ship class in the game is more than capable of shooting things of equivalent mass/cost/DP to death, for some reason fighters are exempt.

it makes me worried that they will never be turned into something threatening again, which is very much a sad state of affairs.
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DatonKallandor

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Re: Fighter Redesign
« Reply #228 on: August 29, 2016, 01:47:58 PM »

1) The hypothetical loadout where you've got both interceptors and a strike mix of wings is rather, well, hypothetical. Only the Astral has enough slots to even consider it, and it seems like it'd be a bad idea anyway - if you're going to use a strike group, you really want to maximize its potential. Giving up half or even a third of its capacity for some interceptor cover seems ill-advised. This isn't like weapons where you're flux-limited and aren't giving up much firepower when you put in some point-defense. You do get some ordnance points from mixing in the cheaper interceptors, but it doesn't seem worth it.

Imagine if flux didn't exist. Could you justify putting 2 flak on an Enforcer, vs loading it out with, say, 2x Heavy Mauler and 3x Hypervelocity Driver? And then consider that PD on carriers is still an option, as a fallback from not having interceptors. If the carrier is going for strike-type offense, there's not a lot of reason to mix 'em in. And if you're going for an interceptor-heavy carrier, you really want a healthy mix of interceptors. It goes back to that whole point about fighters scaling non-linearly, but this time on a per-carrier scale. If you're giving up half your strike wings, you're giving up way more than half your strike firepower, and likewise for interceptors.

2) I *really* don't want to add 5 more controls for selecting groups of fighters, and if we were to mix them up with weapons, 5 groups aren't quite enough. Potentially the way to go here control-wise would be to add a 6th group, and let you use them for either.

Maybe keeping back interceptors for yourself was a bad example. I get that overwhelming full-force attack is probably always the better option when you want something removed, even if it's a frigate, but what about defending several allied ships? There's no way to do that is there? And that was kind of one of the big things fighters were really good for - get one carrier, a couple of fighters and you could give several ships fighter cover. Now you'd have to get one carrier for every ship you want to escort, which is probably going to get you a lot of overkill defensively.

The range limit might make escorting multiple ships with one carrier impossible anyway, I don't know.

And since flak is coming up so often - that's one weapon that should really get another look at. AoE PD is always a problem to balance (in every game), because it straight up nullifies the one counter missiles have against PD - volley fire - with no counter-play. Flak is probably too cheap on the OP, Flux, Rate of Fire or something (how expensive, performance wise, would it be to make flak spawn a cone of regular PD projectiles, or just do damage in a forward cone so it can't take out infinite missiles in every direction?), but it's sort of a one-size fits all solution to missiles (no matter the number, which is the worst thing) and fighters. And that's only going to get more problematic if fighter and missile waves are the core advantage of carriers. I imagine it shreds through the flare screens too (at least the dual flak).
« Last Edit: August 29, 2016, 01:54:56 PM by DatonKallandor »
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Cik

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Re: Fighter Redesign
« Reply #229 on: August 29, 2016, 02:07:42 PM »

interceptors as a rule are mostly pretty bad anyway, because they cannot effectively approach any ship that is guarding enemy fighters, because they have no range, because they are quite slow.

there is no real reason to ever try to break up strike craft before they hit you anyway, as they are weak enough that just piecemealing some dual flak on a few of your ships will stymie them with a near 100% success rate anyway.
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Megas

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Re: Fighter Redesign
« Reply #230 on: August 29, 2016, 02:10:43 PM »

From the looks of things, if the skill revamp makes missiles worthless for endurance battles (against 100+ ships), at least there is Converted Hangar for some ships to trade limited missiles into unlimited missiles, er... fighters.  Provided that hullmod is not locked behind a skill I do not want to take.  (E.g., Advanced Optics in Applied Physics when I am too low level to get all the skills.)
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Gothars

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Re: Fighter Redesign
« Reply #231 on: August 29, 2016, 02:48:25 PM »

all i need is one line "this should bring fighters up to par" or something like that. even some re-assurance "i will eventually look at the strength of fighters" would be fine.

I'd recommend working with the assumption that their power level will be more appropriate than it was.
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Zapier

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Re: Fighter Redesign
« Reply #232 on: August 29, 2016, 04:24:45 PM »

Quote from: Alex's Blog
All in all, I’m hopeful that these changes will meet the main goals – making carriers an interesting flagship choice, improving fighter variety in terms of which ones actually get used, and sanding off all the rough edges that have been there for so long. Naturally, we’ll have to see how it plays out, and I’m sure some adjustments here and there will be necessary.

Then, of course, there’s addressing how fighters scale up as player skills come into play, but that’s another topic.

For Cik, I think this part at the end of the blog actually addresses your feelings as well.

I'm just really excited to see fighters and carriers be made to be more interesting choices aside from one or two ships. Before, it was kinda bland. You'd get fighters but commanding the carriers you were still left with relatively few or ineffective combat setups, so tying fighters in this way should in theory make it as fun for me as flying ships with drones and such but with more indirect fire capabilities with the wings chosen.
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Cik

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Re: Fighter Redesign
« Reply #233 on: August 29, 2016, 04:46:31 PM »

all i need is one line "this should bring fighters up to par" or something like that. even some re-assurance "i will eventually look at the strength of fighters" would be fine.

I'd recommend working with the assumption that their power level will be more appropriate than it was.

fair. i reserve judgement.
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Alex

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Re: Fighter Redesign
« Reply #234 on: August 29, 2016, 05:20:22 PM »

Maybe keeping back interceptors for yourself was a bad example. I get that overwhelming full-force attack is probably always the better option when you want something removed, even if it's a frigate, but what about defending several allied ships? There's no way to do that is there? And that was kind of one of the big things fighters were really good for - get one carrier, a couple of fighters and you could give several ships fighter cover. Now you'd have to get one carrier for every ship you want to escort, which is probably going to get you a lot of overkill defensively.

The range limit might make escorting multiple ships with one carrier impossible anyway, I don't know.

Yeah, that's a bit more likely use case. I'm not sure how well it'd work out with splitting, though, since it'd either be under AI control (and hence you couldn't say, 1 wing goes here, 1 there - it'd be up to the AI to decide) or under your control in which case you're piloting a carrier but not really doing much with its fighters - it's not really worth it to deploy a Condor just so two other ships have a wing of escorts, you know? Even interceptors are better off grouped up and doing something coordinated, even if that happens to be "deflecting a large attack run" at a given moment.

At least, that's the theory. Certainly open to tweaking things should theory do its typical thing when meeting practice.

And since flak is coming up so often - that's one weapon that should really get another look at. AoE PD is always a problem to balance (in every game), because it straight up nullifies the one counter missiles have against PD - volley fire - with no counter-play. Flak is probably too cheap on the OP, Flux, Rate of Fire or something (how expensive, performance wise, would it be to make flak spawn a cone of regular PD projectiles, or just do damage in a forward cone so it can't take out infinite missiles in every direction?), but it's sort of a one-size fits all solution to missiles (no matter the number, which is the worst thing) and fighters. And that's only going to get more problematic if fighter and missile waves are the core advantage of carriers. I imagine it shreds through the flare screens too (at least the dual flak).

That's an interesting point. I can see where you're coming from, but in Starsector at least, these properties of flak are 100% intended rather than a problem. Missile volley fire overwhelming the PD of low-tech ships would be trouble, because then missiles would become a "with no counter-play" problem if massed. Missiles are largely intended to be used against targets that are in trouble - overloaded, venting, flanked, distracted by your allies. That's their window of opportunity and the "counter-play" to flak.

High tech ships, without access to flak, have better shields instead.

Likewise with fighters - or, rather, with fighter ordnance like bombs or torpedoes. Fighters themselves are not super susceptible to flak, some have decent enough armor, and the flak explosion radius is not large enough to hit multiple fighters with any great consistency. Like with missiles, their window of opportunity is supposed to open up when used in conjunction with something else.

fair. i reserve judgement.

Appreciate it :) Apologies for not realizing this was a point that needed clearing up; there's pretty much no way extensive mechanical changes like this can happen without an equally extensive balance pass.
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DatonKallandor

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Re: Fighter Redesign
« Reply #235 on: August 29, 2016, 05:28:58 PM »

Well I certainly can't wait to try it. I guess the missile/flak stuff just comes down to me not liking finite missiles in a game where everything is increasingly infinite-but-limited-by-CR. I'd be much more comfortable with Dual Flak being a near impenetrable anti-missile screen if a single bad volley was just "try again in 2 minutes" (which carrier based runs already are going to be I guess) rather than "well thats you *** for this battle".
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Voyager I

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Re: Fighter Redesign
« Reply #236 on: August 29, 2016, 07:29:33 PM »

Well I certainly can't wait to try it. I guess the missile/flak stuff just comes down to me not liking finite missiles in a game where everything is increasingly infinite-but-limited-by-CR. I'd be much more comfortable with Dual Flak being a near impenetrable anti-missile screen if a single bad volley was just "try again in 2 minutes" (which carrier based runs already are going to be I guess) rather than "well thats you *** for this battle".

That's the tradeoff you make with finisher missiles though.  For => 5 OP and a small mount you get weapons that are difficult to connect with but are capable of outright gibbing a destroyer that doesn't have its shields up.
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Thaago

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Re: Fighter Redesign
« Reply #237 on: August 29, 2016, 08:03:29 PM »

Re: flak and fighters.
Flak is not all that good against fighters - certainly worse than energy PD. Back when fighters were effective, one of the key advantages of the Hammerhead over the Enforcer was that it could mount beams and deal with fighters at long range.

Well I certainly can't wait to try it. I guess the missile/flak stuff just comes down to me not liking finite missiles in a game where everything is increasingly infinite-but-limited-by-CR. I'd be much more comfortable with Dual Flak being a near impenetrable anti-missile screen if a single bad volley was just "try again in 2 minutes" (which carrier based runs already are going to be I guess) rather than "well thats you *** for this battle".

That's the tradeoff you make with finisher missiles though.  For => 5 OP and a small mount you get weapons that are difficult to connect with but are capable of outright gibbing a destroyer that doesn't have its shields up.
Also, missiles can make you win without you ever firing them. If you have some Harpoons or torpedoes near an enemy, it won't vent. Its not really tricking the AI either - the optimal short/medium move is not to vent, so as to not eat the burst damage, and players act the same way (or at least learn to after losing a couple dozen frigates...). An enemy that can't vent is a bunch easier to take down with guns.
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Morrokain

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Re: Fighter Redesign
« Reply #238 on: August 29, 2016, 10:37:01 PM »

Yes!! Been looking forward to this for a long while and I am not disappointed! This solves so many of the issues with fighters on the campaign level and I am pretty excited for fighters as carrier weapons and the new combat tactics associated with that. I am especially eager to see the AI changes though. I think a lot of the minor annoying issues I had with large battles will be solved by that alone.

So since destroyers and up can technically get access to a lone fighter wing with hullmods, I am assuming the engage/regroup fighter commands will be available on every ship? If not, do they need the hullmod for the commands to show up and do they replace any other commands when that happens?

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LostInTheWired

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Re: Fighter Redesign
« Reply #239 on: August 29, 2016, 11:45:15 PM »

Oh man, hope I wasn't being difficult.  I had just gotten off work and was trying to type stuff up on my phone.  Let me see if I can make things a bit more clear.

I wouldn't call that "micromanaging". Micromanaging would be if you're doing it per-wing, this is regular "managing" :) You're pressing one button maybe every 10 seconds. Enough to be engaging since you need to pay attention and decide, but far from enough to be "micromanagement", if we take that term to imply an amount of controlling that's an unwanted hassle. I mean, I suppose that's subjective - maybe someone doesn't want to press any buttons, right - but this seems generally reasonable.

I absolutely understand a lot of this is going to be subjective.  For sure, I haven't played your new mechanics and they could be great!  But at the same time, they could just be going in a direction that I'm not really looking for.

When I'm playing a carrier, the idea is that I'm the conductor of a giant space orchestra.  Flying the carrier is a lot more about predicting where I should be in the future while directing the action around the carrier (which means I spec a lot into the leadership skills).  I use the carrier itself as an anchor of sorts for the front line.  In many ways, the carrier and escorts is the anvil , and the fighters, bombers, and other ships of the fleet are the hammer.

When I say micromanagement, I'm kind of thinking that I'm now having to dance between 2 different systems.  Managing the fleet in the map, and now managing the fighters separately with what's basically a hold-fire auto-fire command, as well as using the missiles/harassment/support weapon systems I generally try to run on the carrier.  It may seem counter-intuitive, but the allure of flying the carrier was not as much about the carrier itself, but it's interactions with the entire battle.

Starsector is not an RTS, for sure.  This may be an odd way to think about it, but playing like this feels a lot more like the old Rainbow Six games.  You had the Planning phase where you figured out what you wanted to do, then you actually controlled one of the parts of that plan during execution.

Regarding flanking: if your carrier positioning doesn't matter very much (beyond "out of trouble" and "not too far"), then that's one less reason to fly it yourself. (I'll say, it'd be more interesting to see *why* you think that, and other things. As it is, all I can see is that you strongly don't think that should be the case (due to caps), but not what about it makes you feel that way, beyond it being the fighters' job. There's just not much discussion to be had without knowing about the "why" of things.)

I do see what you're saying regarding fighters doing this on their own, but to me that's far from being the "entire point" of fighters. If's just one more thing they could potentially do.

I would probably say the biggest strategic use of a carrier, at least in modern combat, is force projection.  In Starsector, that meant being more of a support craft for these smaller, faster craft.  The idea, I had always felt, was that positioning of the carrier was about maintaining a balance of being close enough to the battle for quick refit anywhere on the battle map, but just far enough to not be under significant threat from more deadly ships.  Flying a capital-class carrier, that's about staying just close enough to the main task force of the enemy to trade potshots, but far enough to avoid more severe burst damage.  You and your escorts are what make you an anvil here.  A couple of destroyers or, late game, a couple of cruiser escorts create a very difficult defensive line to beat.  The escorts duck in and out to deal stronger burst damage, while you try to maintain good overall directional and distance positioning to make them effective in both defense and offense.  As a bit of an afterthought, this is part of why I generally don't have capital-class battleships and that sort of thing in my fleet, a carrier group's front line just isn't as concentrated.

And the strike craft come into play here.  Usually with a fighter escort, the strike craft wait for an opportune moment, then I have them do a run to make a more severe blow.  Daggers set up on a flank waiting for the fleet to bring the flux up on the ship, or a couple of Piranha wings to throw out their field of bombs from the rear to distract their shield facings for a swift assault from strike destroyers.  The relatively high speeds and, surprisingly, survivability when they're separated from the fleet is what makes them useful here.  (And when I'm talking about survivability, generally they're pretty good at avoiding enemies before their attack, rather than actually taking hits.)

That's why it's hard for me to say that that's not the entire point of fighters/bombers.  Because, in use, the point of them is for swift, brief strikes to throw an enemy off-balance, not necessarily a weapon.  They're more of a tool than that.

I don't understand what you mean. Why would you want to actually fly a carrier yourself if you have full strategic control over fighters anyway? Wouldn't you want to fly a more combat-capable ship where your ability to control it makes a difference to its performance, vs one where it doesn't?

I hope I've at least somewhat answered this already, but the ability to control the carrier really does make a difference in it's performance!  :)  The control of it is just a bit more subtle and a great deal about planning and preparation.  Flying the carrier means I'm not having to make constant command changes when it comes to placement and even then, using it in this way, the AI doesn't do a very good job of keeping it alive.

I'll be the first to say that this isn't really how carriers are used, and probably all of what I've said should be taken with a grain of salt.  In reality, a carrier battle group's capabilities don't really come from direct naval engagement.  It comes from being able to project force in a vast region, over massive distances.  I really doubt that this is going to be modeled in this game.  That's not really the point of Starsector.   ;D  But if the game's going to have them, I really do want to see some of the tactical flexibility of a carrier modeled at least in combat.

Edit: just want to make clear, this "loss of strategic control" is definitely a loss in my book, no argument on that point at all. I just think that what we get in return will turn out better.

In the end, Alex, I hope for the best!  You're a great designer and I've loved what you've done so far.  I love the game and I definitely will when this new update releases, but maybe just a bit less if the fighter redesign doesn't pan out well.  We'll see when it comes out.  I can say, though, that when it does come out, I may end up missing playing my favorite role.

Thanks for all your responses!
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