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[Alex]

So, I think nobody talked about the new systems yet. Any guesses what they do?

Targeting Feed seems the most obvious, I'd think it increases the damage output of the carrier's fighters while active.

Reserve deployment might be just the instant rebuilding of destroyed fighters.

Recall Device... mhh. Mayyybe something to force fighters to dock for repairs? Don't know if that would be useful, though.

Well the Astral is high-tech right?
Maybe the recall device instantly teleports fighters back to the carrier

Maybe a teleportation device to immediately call back all the fighters?

Solid guesses! That's all pretty much right on.

Given that the Gemini is going back to being an armed freighter rather than a freighter-light carrier with no downsides, I don't feel like it should have a unique carrier-based system; especially when the Condor: the one that's actually meant to be a carrier (and sacrificed cargo space to do it) doesn't (and I don't really want it to either, Fast Missile Racks is getting increasingly rare for a "generic" system).

I think this system (if it works as we think) is purpose build for a one deck carrier, otherwise it would be too easy to "disarm". For proper carriers it might be actually too powerful/unfair.

"Reserve Deployment" launches a few temporary fighters that need to go back for refit after 20 (if memory serves) seconds, but allows you to go above maximum wing size temporarily. It is indeed much too good on something with 3+ wings, though I could see putting it on a 2-wing carrier at some point, too. Or a very dedicated 3-winger.

In my mind, it and "targeting feed" are run-of-the-mill systems, while "Recall Device" is more special. Not that I mind reusing systems, but at the same time I probably wouldn't categorize them as "generic" vs "unique", because there are very much different kinds of "unique" systems. Compare the feel of the aforementioned "reserve deployment" vs, I don't know, "quantum disruptor". One is clearly more special that the other. So I'd say it's more "normal" vs "special", where either can be unique - or not - but "special" systems have that much more extra oopmh to them and really make a ship stand out. Naturally there's some gray area, though.

So what happens, if only three Hangars are even equipt with Wings? Wouldn't that mean, that these three Wings can be maintained at full "capacity" under any circumstances, till the Carriers CR runs out?

Good question; not exactly. Those empty hangars are always counted at 100%, so they are never recovering any rate, being already maxed out.

What that means is 1) the minimum rate in this situation is 65% (as there's a 30% minimum rate per bay), and 2) the rate goes down more slowly than it would with all 6 bays working at the same time.

Going along with the suggestion of turning Drones into the new hangar system aswell,_{What I would really like to see}, I would suggest a clear differentiation.
Since drones are smaller, crewless, shorter ranged and, as far as I remember, weaker than fighters,
I would like to see Fighter and Drone Hangars seperated from each other.
They might even have few differentiations, for example a "clip" system for drones,
as we have now for some drone carriers,_{or was that in a mod?}.
If one is destroyed, it could be replaced instantly, and the clip gets slowly refilled.
If this happens, I think it would also make sense to do another Hull mod to add one "drone Hangar" to a ship.
Not as expensive as a real hangar, but only capable of carrying drones.

Hmm. Possibly doable, but not something I want to jump into right now. For the moment, "drones as built-in wings" seems to be working out pretty well.

Hey, you know what, it would be awesome if carriers would send their fighters to escort. Because, imagine you are piloting this escorted frigate. Sourrounded by a deadly swarm, you maneuver into the perfect position and at the optimal moment, unleash your companions on the enemy's engines. That sounds like the perfect frigate captain power fantasy.

Yeah, that's very much the angle I'm looking at it from. Would have to make sure that fighter/interceptor range lined up with making this work, though.

Also, I hope for a faction that has special faction variants (you know, like the hegemony legion ships) that specialize in hangar deck hullmods. Maybe the Lion's Guard?

That hullmod is more "interesting" than across-the-board "good", but could be fun to fight against just the same - more opponent variety, even if it's not something very optimized. Will keep that in mind!

[Embolism]

One thing I don't like about drones as built-in wings is that there are also drones that can be freely slotted, i.e. Wasp and Mining Pods. Makes you wonder why those built-in drones aren't slottable: the Terminator can be explained away as being specially designed for the Tempest, but Borers are too low-tech for that explanation.

Speaking of Borers, now that Mining Pods are drones again you have to wonder about their relationship to Borers. They both seem to be at about the same tech level and use the same piddly mining laser, yet one is a compact little thing while the other is a clumsy brick. I suppose Mining Pods might actually carry the ores they mine though, while Borers don't.

On a related note... if the old high tech drones come back in some form, their relation to Wasps would also need a little explanation. Better AI (range), I suppose; though if Wasps are 0 OP then those old drones wouldn't have much of a place. Pity.



I realise I complain a lot about not strictly gameplay related matters, heh. What can I say? I love this game.

[Alex]

One thing I don't like about drones as built-in wings is that there are also drones that can be freely slotted, i.e. Wasp and Mining Pods. Makes you wonder why those built-in drones aren't slottable: the Terminator can be explained away as being specially designed for the Tempest, but Borers are too low-tech for that explanation.

Hmm, why does the tech level make a difference here? The capacity to manufacture Borers is built into the Shepherd hull, and simply isn't available in LPC form. Perhaps the drone requires specific hardware to link up with the mothership. Perhaps certain optimizations mean it's more of a pain to produce a stand-alone LPC; after all anything generic is a lot more work than something specific, and that holds true across tech levels.

Speaking of Borers, now that Mining Pods are drones again you have to wonder about their relationship to Borers. They both seem to be at about the same tech level and use the same piddly mining laser, yet one is a compact little thing while the other is a clumsy brick. I suppose Mining Pods might actually carry the ores they mine though, while Borers don't.

I think you've done a fine job of explaining that relationship

On a related note... if the old high tech drones come back in some form, their relation to Wasps would also need a little explanation. Better AI (range), I suppose; though if Wasps are 0 OP then those old drones wouldn't have much of a place. Pity.

Not sure which high-tech drones you mean.

Wasps are also not free.

I realise I complain a lot about not strictly gameplay related matters, heh. What can I say? I love this game.

No worries, 's all good

[Deshara]

Also, I hope for a faction that has special faction variants (you know, like the hegemony legion ships) that specialize in hangar deck hullmods. Maybe the Lion's Guard?

That hullmod is more "interesting" than across-the-board "good", but could be fun to fight against just the same - more opponent variety, even if it's not something very optimized. Will keep that in mind!

It's important to note that not every hegemony ship is a hegemony aux or 13th battlegroup, so a faction focused around fighters (a subdivision of tritach btw) wouldn't be %100 faction variety hulls

[Gothars]

It just occurred to me that fighters probably can't deploy from the sides any more in pursuit scenarios. They also have limited range from the carrier. Are they now useless for catching frigates and fast destroyers?

For the moment, "drones as built-in wings" seems to be working out pretty well.

Just to be sure, that means that drones as ship systems do not exist anymore? All ships that still had them have no built-in wings and another/no ship system?

On a related note... if the old high tech drones come back in some form, their relation to Wasps would also need a little explanation. Better AI (range), I suppose; though if Wasps are 0 OP then those old drones wouldn't have much of a place. Pity.

Not sure which high-tech drones you mean.

Pretty sure the PD laser drones, they are similar to Wasps. Would only be an issue if they were both available as LPC (at similar cost), which I suppose is not the case.

[Sy]

re: scouting and using fighters to carry out orders

why not just add a single new, carrier-exclusive order: "send strike craft". if targeting an allied ship, the fighters escort it. against a hostile ship, it orders the carrier to send fighter waves against it. when used on a capture point or custom waypoint, the fighters hold position there (or patrol in a small radius). that also allows for setting up flanking maneuvers without requiring the host carrier itself to flank, by ordering fighters to either an allied ship or waypoint before ordering the attack itself.

this doesn't allow for differentiation between attacking and just harassing an enemy, but it only requires a single context-sensitive order to add several tactical options.

[Alex]

It just occurred to me that fighters probably can't deploy from the sides any more in pursuit scenarios. They also have limited range from the carrier. Are they now useless for catching frigates and fast destroyers?

Not entirely sure, actually. I think interceptors would still have enough range if deployed from the bottom, and they're plenty fast (250ish), but vs a frigate with burn drive? Haven't tested yet so can't say. Would be a good thing to test, though.

Just to be sure, that means that drones as ship systems do not exist anymore? All ships that still had them have no built-in wings and another/no ship system?

Moving in that direction, yes. The only one left is the Apogee; not sure what to do w/ it yet. It also needs a nerf, so that's a consideration as well.

The Shepherd now has Borers as a "wing", size bumped up to 6. Net buff, I suppose.

Still leaving the functionality in for mods, though. No reason to remove it.

Pretty sure the PD laser drones, they are similar to Wasps. Would only be an issue if they were both available as LPC (at similar cost), which I suppose is not the case.

Ahh, that makes sense. Yeah, wasn't thinking of those as something that needed to be kept around.

why not just add a single new, carrier-exclusive order: "send strike craft". if targeting an allied ship, the fighters escort it. against a hostile ship, it orders the carrier to send fighter waves against it. when used on a capture point or custom waypoint, the fighters hold position there (or patrol in a small radius). that also allows for setting up flanking maneuvers without requiring the host carrier itself to flank, by ordering fighters to either an allied ship or waypoint before ordering the attack itself.

this doesn't allow for differentiation between attacking and just harassing an enemy, but it only requires a single context-sensitive order to add several tactical options.

Yeah, was thinking along similar lines myself, though without the "set on enemy" option. (Still) need to think this through a bit, been fixing/tweaking other fighter-related things.

[Linnis]

Maybe a Shield projector for fighters? That would be cool for a high tech carrier. (Tho we dont have one beside the astral atm)

[Sy]

The Shepherd now has Borers as a "wing", size bumped up to 6. Net buff, I suppose.

i like Shepard a lot; it's pretty decent as a 'budget carrier' of sorts, and has good cargo capacity to boot. but i think it's a shame that AI fleets don't treat it as a combat ship, like they do with designated combat-freighter hybrids. so you only get to fight it during (usually very one-sided) pursuit battles. i'd love to see pirates, or small AI fleets in general, deploy it into battle, especially when fleets can't have a couple fighter wings without carriers anymore (which i feel is, by itself, very much a good thing).

though without the "set on enemy" option.

can i ask why? for combat-carrier hybrids in particular, it seems important to me to be able to differentiate between ordering "attack by yourself" and "send fighters to attack". i suppose for something like an Odyssey it would probably be okay to just combine these two, but i wouldn't want a Heron itself to attack every time i order it to use its fighters against a specific enemy.
or is there already a way to do this that i missed?

[Alex]

i like Shepard a lot; it's pretty decent as a 'budget carrier' of sorts, and has good cargo capacity to boot. but i think it's a shame that AI fleets don't treat it as a combat ship, like they do with designated combat-freighter hybrids. so you only get to fight it during (usually very one-sided) pursuit battles. i'd love to see pirates, or small AI fleets in general, deploy it into battle, especially when fleets can't have a couple fighter wings without carriers anymore (which i feel is, by itself, very much a good thing).

(Shepherd, darn it. Shep-herd. For herding sheps.)

Great call, wasn't even thinking about that. Switched its "CIVILIAN" tag for "CARRIER" in the ship data, so it'll act like a carrier now. Easy! And good.

though without the "set on enemy" option.

can i ask why? for combat-carrier hybrids in particular, it seems important to me to be able to differentiate between ordering "attack by yourself" and "send fighters to attack". i suppose for something like an Odyssey it would probably be okay to just combine these two, but i wouldn't want a Heron itself to attack every time i order it to use its fighters against a specific enemy.
or is there already a way to do this that i missed?

Well, for one, specific orders to fighters' carriers like this seriously undermine carrier autonomy and the potential for them to be a ship you would want to actually control yourself. This applies to the "rally fighters" flavor of the order as well, but the more of this there is, the less reason there is to fly a carrier.

Edit: I'm not saying this makes it a bad idea. More just, this is a large part of what there is to think through. In addition to how multiple orders of this type active at the same time would interact, which gets much more tricky when there are more types of them.

[Wyvern]

Just to be sure, that means that drones as ship systems do not exist anymore? All ships that still had them have no built-in wings and another/no ship system?

Moving in that direction, yes. The only one left is the Apogee; not sure what to do w/ it yet. It also needs a nerf, so that's a consideration as well.

Please don't.  Or rather, please don't just nerf it - it's one of my favorite combat cruisers.  Instead, I'd request that it get split: have a civilian exploration vessel Apogee, and a high-performance Tri-Tachyon Command Ship Apogee.  The latter would lose a good chunk of cargo/fuel/crew capacity, while the former would lose... mostly flux stats, I think?  The current Apogee is powerful due to the combination of a strong shield, deep flux reserves, and enough dissipation to use Heavy Blasters - yeah, yeah, it's also got the range bonus thing going, but that really only serves to counterbalance its poor turret placement.  Cut down on the flux dissipation, maybe drop the large energy slot to a medium, and put the shields up to 1.0 instead of 0.6, and I think you'd have something that'd be comparable with the Venture rather than comparable with the Dominator.

[Sy]

(Shepherd, darn it. Shep-herd. For herding sheps.)

huh. i did mean she(e)p-herd, as a herder of its flock of drones. i thought that's how you spell it.

looked up what a shepard actually is, then (aside from a commander, obviously!) and this is the first thing wiki says about it:
"Shepard may refer to:
    A common misspelling of shepherd"

Great call, wasn't even thinking about that. Switched its "CIVILIAN" tag for "CARRIER" in the ship data, so it'll act like a carrier now. Easy! And good.

nice, thanks!

Well, for one, specific orders to fighters' carriers like this seriously undermine carrier autonomy and the potential for them to be a ship you would want to actually control yourself. This applies to the "rally fighters" flavor of the order as well, but the more of this there is, the less reason there is to fly a carrier.

hmm, didn't think of that. i am really looking forward to trying carrier flagships, so it does seem like a good reason to me. :]

[Gothars]

I suggest continuing the discussion about the Apogee in this thread.

[Alex]

looked up what a shepard actually is, then (aside from a commander, obviously!) and this is the first thing wiki says about it:
"Shepard may refer to:
    A common misspelling of shepherd"

Ha

[Schwartz]

Making drones not able to roam too far has its upsides. They're made of paper and usually die pretty quickly in AI hands, where I usually leave them in a holding pattern to work as PD. AI auto-sets its drones to roam, which I'm not sure is always smart.