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Author Topic: Economy Revamp  (Read 37173 times)

HGScout

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Re: Economy Revamp
« Reply #30 on: April 24, 2016, 06:29:56 AM »

will this help in making the game run faster?
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Alex

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Re: Economy Revamp
« Reply #31 on: April 24, 2016, 09:57:32 AM »

As far as that readability issue on large markets goes, what if instead of stacking icons based on absolute amounts (100 Organics/icon, etc) you made the stack sizes relative to the different goods on the market (%1 in market output/icon)? As far as I can tell, there's very little point in showing the actual number of a given good on the market in the "at-a-glance" view, nor is that view used to compare a market's output to another market's, so having a relative figure that scales with market size shouldn't cause many problems

The thing is, while you're not using this view to compare markets side-by-side, it's still a big part of getting a feel for the size of a market's economy. For example, you go to Jangala, and that screen is full of stuff. You go to Asharu, and you get a very clear sense of how much smaller it is than Jangala, and how much worse off, even if you're not seeing the screens side-by-side. Further, imagine if you're in control of the market, and doing something to develop it further. It'd be good to see that growth reflected in this screen.

will this help in making the game run faster?

This shouldn't have much impact on performance one way or another.
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HellBent

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Re: Economy Revamp
« Reply #32 on: April 25, 2016, 06:16:47 AM »

Had an idea for the issue of many icons being fit onto the screen.
How about having a larger good icon to represent 10 units that would also stack next to the smaller ones?
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Gothars

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Re: Economy Revamp
« Reply #33 on: April 25, 2016, 09:26:13 AM »

Details:
Wouldn't it be nicer if the top icon of a stack was on the left? As it is now, if you don't recognize a symbol because of the overlay, you have to go all the way to the right to see it in full. That's counterintuitive for western reading habits.


And I'd maybe change "Incoming" and "Outgoing" to "Gain" and "Depletion" or something (Increase/Decrease, Adding/Subtracting). "Outgoing" strongly implies exports, which doesn't fit  with "Demands".
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PCCL

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Re: Economy Revamp
« Reply #34 on: April 25, 2016, 11:53:52 AM »

"input" and "output"?
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Dri

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Re: Economy Revamp
« Reply #35 on: April 25, 2016, 02:40:44 PM »

You're just so sensible, Gothars. A real voice of reason around here!
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Alex

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Re: Economy Revamp
« Reply #36 on: April 25, 2016, 03:30:16 PM »

Had an idea for the issue of many icons being fit onto the screen.
How about having a larger good icon to represent 10 units that would also stack next to the smaller ones?

Tried that! It turns out it's not good for several reasons -
1) You lose a quick sense of scale - i.e. you see that Organics icons take up X amount of screen space, Volatiles take Y, and you can no longer instantly tell which there's more of. Obviously you can tell if you take a closer look at the icons involved, but it's no longer "at a glance" readable.
2) In the same vein, that makes it so there's two shapes for each commodity, which makes parsing this more difficult. Keeping the colors similar helps there, but the shape, it turns out, is a very powerful help there as well.


Wouldn't it be nicer if the top icon of a stack was on the left? As it is now, if you don't recognize a symbol because of the overlay, you have to go all the way to the right to see it in full. That's counterintuitive for western reading habits.

I'm not sure what you mean by "because of the overlay", and how that combines with reversing the ordering of the stack. I mean, if it's showing you that, say, the demand for food is not met, that's a quantity of food highlighted with a red border (if that's what you mean by overlay), but that's already to the right of the "food demand met" group. Shifting icon rendering within each group isn't going to affect the order of the groups in any case, though. Just not quite sure what you're saying - rather, it'd make sense w/o the "because of the overlay" part, but with that, I'm confused :)


And I'd maybe change "Incoming" and "Outgoing" to "Gain" and "Depletion" or something (Increase/Decrease, Adding/Subtracting). "Outgoing" strongly implies exports, which doesn't fit  with "Demands".

Hmm. Does it? I guess can see that, but it's still a fairly generic word. "Adding/Subtracting" is probably the most clear, but (unfortunately!) also feels off feel-wise.


"input" and "output"?

"Output" isn't right at all for demand, though. And is right for production/supply. So that'd just muddy the waters further :)
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Gothars

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Re: Economy Revamp
« Reply #37 on: April 26, 2016, 08:40:04 AM »

Wouldn't it be nicer if the top icon of a stack was on the left? As it is now, if you don't recognize a symbol because of the overlay, you have to go all the way to the right to see it in full. That's counterintuitive for western reading habits.

I'm not sure what you mean by "because of the overlay", and how that combines with reversing the ordering of the stack. I mean, if it's showing you that, say, the demand for food is not met, that's a quantity of food highlighted with a red border (if that's what you mean by overlay), but that's already to the right of the "food demand met" group. Shifting icon rendering within each group isn't going to affect the order of the groups in any case, though. Just not quite sure what you're saying - rather, it'd make sense w/o the "because of the overlay" part, but with that, I'm confused :)

Sorry for being unclear, should have said "overlap" not "overlay".

What I meant is that this:



is easier to read than this:



For western readers it feels natural to look to the left for the beginning of a semiotic construct ("icon sentence"). But here looking to the left doesn't clarify the icon, you have to look right to see in in full. It's a minor thing, but why not choose the better option?




"Outgoing" strongly implies exports, which doesn't fit  with "Demands".

Hmm. Does it?

Yes! It's almost a synonym in this context. Just google "outgoing commodities", you could replace most of the results with "exports".

In German the correct word instead of "Incoming" would clearly be "Zuwachs", which translates to "increment" (or "accretion"). Then the opposite would of course be "decrement" (or "diminution").


You're just so sensible, Gothars. A real voice of reason around here!

Uh, thanks!?  :)
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Zarcon

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Re: Economy Revamp
« Reply #38 on: April 26, 2016, 09:37:22 AM »

I fear that I'm being overly dense to even ask this question...alas.  :P 

But all of these cool market supply/demand issues will be resolved by REAL fleets moving throughout the Sector right?

Fleets which will be carrying the desired supplies from the location with the surplus to the location with the demand?

Then if these fleets are assailed, the cargo recovered would naturally be the cargo which was being shipped due to this market system.

Anyways, sorry if that is old hat, but I didn't notice it being clearly laid out just now, maybe I overlooked it, or maybe I'm way off and this supply/demand chain will happen automagically.  :P
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Auraknight

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Re: Economy Revamp
« Reply #39 on: April 26, 2016, 09:53:18 AM »

As someone studying economics and has interest in compsci, this is interesting.

As far as that readability issue on large markets goes, what if instead of stacking icons based on absolute amounts (100 Organics/icon, etc) you made the stack sizes relative to the different goods on the market (%1 in market output/icon)? As far as I can tell, there's very little point in showing the actual number of a given good on the market in the "at-a-glance" view, nor is that view used to compare a market's output to another market's, so having a relative figure that scales with market size shouldn't cause many problems
Wouldn't you then have the problem of a large market 'appearing' to have the same out-put and input as a small one?
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Alex

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Re: Economy Revamp
« Reply #40 on: April 26, 2016, 11:46:17 AM »

Sorry for being unclear, should have said "overlap" not "overlay".

What I meant is that this:



is easier to read than this:



For western readers it feels natural to look to the left for the beginning of a semiotic construct ("icon sentence"). But here looking to the left doesn't clarify the icon, you have to look right to see in in full. It's a minor thing, but why not choose the better option?

Ah, gotcha - thought that's what you meant, but the "overlay" bit threw me off.

Gave it a quick try - looking at an icon group, my eye naturally wants to move to the right. It does not want to stop and look at the left-most icon, there's almost a compulsion to keep the gaze moving to the right. The right side of a group feels like a much more comfortable stopping point. Further, overlapping icons like this, there's a "flow" to it, and it goes right-to-left if the first icon is on top. It feels quite uncomfortable moving my eye to the right over a group that's displayed like this.

I'm sure this is subjective even within western readers, to some degree, but having tried it... let's just say I've developed a lot more empathy for a right-to-left reader trying to adapt to left-to-write text and layouts. It actually felt nauseating and disorienting to look at the screen :) Really weird how strong of a sensation that was - not super apparent looking at one group, but when you start to look at many groups laid out like that, yikes.


"Outgoing" strongly implies exports, which doesn't fit  with "Demands".

Hmm. Does it?

Yes! It's almost a synonym in this context. Just google "outgoing commodities", you could replace most of the results with "exports".

In German the correct word instead of "Incoming" would clearly be "Zuwachs", which translates to "increment" (or "accretion"). Then the opposite would of course be "decrement" (or "diminution").

Thought about this for a while - funny how stuff like that can take up a bunch of time. Tried "Imports & Production" / "Exports & Consumption", but that feels awfully wordy and redundant, given that there are subtitles that say that anyway. I do see what you're saying though. It's more not liking any of the alternatives - they all have some downsides/undesirable connotations/etc. Going to keep this in mind in case something better comes along!


I fear that I'm being overly dense to even ask this question...alas.  :P 

But all of these cool market supply/demand issues will be resolved by REAL fleets moving throughout the Sector right?

Fleets which will be carrying the desired supplies from the location with the surplus to the location with the demand?

Then if these fleets are assailed, the cargo recovered would naturally be the cargo which was being shipped due to this market system.

Anyways, sorry if that is old hat, but I didn't notice it being clearly laid out just now, maybe I overlooked it, or maybe I'm way off and this supply/demand chain will happen automagically.  :P

It's a good question. The answer is both yes and no.

On the "no" side, the simulation doesn't require real fleets in order to work. If it did, it basically wouldn't work. Consider how fragile it would be if, say, something like a buff or nerf to Emergency Burn had the potential to wreck the economy, by making it so that pirates intercepted a lot more shipping.

It would also take an unreasonably high number of fleets to even send one fleet a month for every market pair that has some trades between them - and unless you have lots and lots of fleets for every such connection, the outcomes would be extremely volatile.

That's not necessarily bad by itself, but it'd be volatile in ways that are essentially random from the player's point of view. That one Tartessus-Sindria food fleet died halfway across the Sector? The food supply in Sindria takes a nosedive, but it's not something you could predict or even really figure out why it happened.


On the "yes" side, trade fleets that do spawn carry the right cargo, and their destruction may feed back into the simulation, just not to the point where the simulation requires them to do their thing.

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Zarcon

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Re: Economy Revamp
« Reply #41 on: April 26, 2016, 12:12:17 PM »

Well that makes me a tad bit sad, lol. ;)  I love the concept of each bit of shipping/cargo/goods existing in a real sense and having to be moved around via fleets.  Would make blockades really cool imho, and pirates would be very disruptive just like they historically have been in real life. 

But I respect your reasoning Alex, thanks for the explanation, it makes sense.
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shuul

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Re: Economy Revamp
« Reply #42 on: April 27, 2016, 04:53:37 AM »

Well that makes me a tad bit sad, lol. ;)  I love the concept of each bit of shipping/cargo/goods existing in a real sense and having to be moved around via fleets.  Would make blockades really cool imho, and pirates would be very disruptive just like they historically have been in real life. 

But I respect your reasoning Alex, thanks for the explanation, it makes sense.

I believe blockades will still have impact, but not so catastrophic as it would be with real fleets. This will still be a viable tactic for market disruption.
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SierraTangoDelta

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Re: Economy Revamp
« Reply #43 on: April 27, 2016, 09:45:53 AM »

Not a super flashy blog post, but this does look far more readable and useful than the previous economy screen, plus it's definitely gonna be helpful when Industry is finally put into the game, as you can seriously begin messing with the markets then, right?
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JT

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Re: Economy Revamp
« Reply #44 on: April 29, 2016, 10:57:08 AM »

Since "bigger icons" is out and "numeric overlays" is out, how about a special icon meant to represent "caselots" for a given commodity (like the board game Risk)?  It might not solve the problem entirely, but if there was a special "crate" or "barrel" icon that was readily distinguishable as being a multiple rather than another unit of the commodity (sounds like a challenge for David to distinguish supplies against ;-)), then you could replace the first few icons at the bottom (front) of the icon stack and it would help indicate very large quantities.  Say if the commodity load is greater than 50, then caselot icons would begin to appear, each representing 5 units, with 25 actual icons or some such always included in order to give a sense of scale.

This would create a disparity where ~49 commodities would appear bigger (49 icons) than 50 commodities (5 caselots + 25 icons), but that could be tuned to taste -- lowering the allowed number of "actual" icons, setting the required number of "actual" icons to equal the same threshold where caselots appear, etc.
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