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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Starsector 0.7.2a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 355204 times)

Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.7.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #375 on: February 29, 2016, 08:05:10 PM »

This is getting a bit off topic (entirely my fault), but I'll just add this: it's also something where making the base element simpler would make it easier to have more mechanics interact with it, so it could well end up making crew *more* interesting.

For example, salaries - if you have those, then you'd expect them to go up for higher crew levels, which means you'd be punished for crew automatically leveling up, which is a mess that requires more detailed controls for the player to deal with. But if you have just "crew", then adding salaries is a breeze. Other mechanics could likewise follow.

(... and certainly you could remove a tier for simplicity.)

(I'm afraid removing a tier would do next to nothing to help simplify things on the code side. Also, consider that marines already only have one level and that's not an issue; crew levels are a thing that made sense way back but it just doesn't anymore, to me. The time-cost of maintaining it going forward is a bit much.)
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ANGRYABOUTELVES

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Re: Starsector 0.7.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #376 on: February 29, 2016, 08:55:40 PM »

For example, salaries - if you have those, then you'd expect them to go up for higher crew levels, which means you'd be punished for crew automatically leveling up, which is a mess that requires more detailed controls for the player to deal with. But if you have just "crew", then adding salaries is a breeze. Other mechanics could likewise follow.
This is exactly why I've disabled crew salaries in SSP.
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Embolism

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Re: Starsector 0.7.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #377 on: February 29, 2016, 08:56:45 PM »

The only thing I'd worry about removing crew levels is that the Leadership attribute becomes even emptier, but since that'll be addressed in a skill update anyway I say go for it. Crew levels really don't contribute enough to warrant a headache.

Minor bug: the Pirate skin of the Wolf seems a bit shifted to the right. You can see this by comparing other skins with the Pirate one in the codex.

... Also, the naming and descriptions of special skins aren't very consistent. The Pirate skin for the Kite has a Pirate indicator and description but none of the other Pirate skins do, even ones that are actually different from Defective skins (Buffalo, Mule). The Dominator XIV's description is different from every other XIV ship. Hegemony Auxilliaries don't have descriptions, although I note that the Kite one has a commented-out description.
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David

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Re: Starsector 0.7.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #378 on: February 29, 2016, 10:07:18 PM »

Minor bug: the Pirate skin of the Wolf seems a bit shifted to the right. You can see this by comparing other skins with the Pirate one in the codex.

... Also, the naming and descriptions of special skins aren't very consistent. The Pirate skin for the Kite has a Pirate indicator and description but none of the other Pirate skins do, even ones that are actually different from Defective skins (Buffalo, Mule). The Dominator XIV's description is different from every other XIV ship. Hegemony Auxilliaries don't have descriptions, although I note that the Kite one has a commented-out description.

Oh yes, fixing those up now.

(And man, I did indeed butcher one line of pixels out of the Pirate Wolf! Can't believe no one noticed before - thanks for pointing it out.)
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Dark.Revenant

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Re: Starsector 0.7.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #379 on: February 29, 2016, 10:19:43 PM »

I was looking at the Beyond Compare diff of that skin and wondered what that big rectangular change was.  I thought it was a shading accident or something, not a pixel shift!
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Sabotsas

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Re: Starsector 0.7.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #380 on: February 29, 2016, 11:21:24 PM »


I'm not a fan of how they feel, torpedo payload entirely aside. Will probably take another look at some later point and decide one way or another.

I really liked the trident after I adjusted some of its stats.
- much slower deceleration
- decrease in turning rate
- increase in maximum speed (~160) [was 100]
- front shield arc reduced to ~50 degree [was 180]
- reduced maintenance costs / or increase wing size to 4 [was 2]

My goal with these changes was to differentiate it a bit more from the
dagger. The trident is more reliable to deliver the payload but
at the same time it is more risky because once committed to the attack the bomber will overshoot the target (slower decel. / turn rate)
and expose its unprotected rear, giving the opponent time to retaliate.

I really think that there is a niche for this (heavy) bomber (or even one more).
I hope it won't get completely scrapped for the next release
even if it is just for the sake of keeping the lovely sprite around :-)
Maybe we will see it in a slightly different role,
I am looking forward to it.
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Sabotsas

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Re: Starsector 0.7.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #381 on: March 01, 2016, 12:35:36 AM »

... making crew *more* interesting.
... Other mechanics could likewise follow.

If that is indeed the goal I am 100% on board.
Just consider that there is more to crew than just the core
game mechanics. It is also about progress / accomplishment / rewards.
Mainly officers fill this role now but there might still be potential to involve
the crew in a meaningful way - in a way so that the player actually cares about them (immersion).

Right now, losing a good ship/hull is much more painful than losing its elite crew,
maybe there is a way to up the stakes in the future.

At the same time you have to balance micro vs. macro management.
Especially when fleets get bigger it is hard to keep track of every individual ship.
Replacing losses can take a long time if you decide to maximize every
replacement (given the weapons / hulls, available) and it becomes rather
tedious instead of fun. (I am aware of the 'variants'-feature and I am using it quite a bit
but especially in the endgame I spend a considerable amount of time refitting my fleet in comparison to fighting actual battles.
With outposts in mind, maybe give the player a way to get easier / faster replacements (at a cost).  

Also, consider that marines already only have one level and that's not an issue

While that is true from a game mechanics standpoint I would like to have some kind of customizability (experience, weapons, gear).
Especially when thinking about outposts / planets I would imagine that we will see (boarding / invasion) troops much more often.

crew levels are a thing that made sense way back but it just doesn't anymore, to me. The time-cost of maintaining it going forward is a bit much.

If you feel that this mechanic is hurting the game more (= costing unnecessary dev-time) than it is worth, scrap it or rework it.

If the development process of Starsector has taught me anything - it would be to have faith in you as a developer.
You haven't let me down once :-) Even some changes that I initially rejected (while reading the patch notes) turned out to be ok or even were an improvement (e.g. ballistics without ammo cap / officer portraits in battle).
I get it, it is really important to look at the game mechanics but don't overlook the immersion factor. If done right both supplement and strengthen each other.
Let the player make meaningful choices while keeping the core mechanics simple.

Keep up the good work, excellent release btw (as always)!


« Last Edit: March 01, 2016, 01:06:20 AM by Sabotsas »
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Gothars

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Re: Starsector 0.7.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #382 on: March 01, 2016, 06:51:19 AM »

It does, yeah. As you say, they are indeed missing the forest for the trees; might make sense to add the same kind of thing for ships - where they don't take them from you, they just very strongly suspect they're "hot" and this results in a reputation drop. I like it! Made a note. (This does bring up the question of black market weapons as well... hmm.

On the other hand, functionally this wouldn't change very much if you already have a bunch of cargo - having a ship that's "hot", in that case, results in an increased chance for a "suspicious cargo" outcome. Which, if the result is the same as a "suspicious ship" outcome (i.e. rep loss), might be getting a bit too fancy without clear gain.

Maybe the simplest implementation would be if your fleet carries over the suspicion level from the market as a general "hotness" level, which would decay within a week or so (in which registry numbers are filed out, DRM chips are overwritten, manufacturer logos are painted over... ;D). When a patrol catches you during that time you get a rep hit dependent on the leftover "hotness" level. So if you do big time smuggling you might get a double rep hit, once from the market and a second time, heavier, from a patrol, if you don't shake it.

At the moment patrols hunt me down all the time, but they never find anything, which makes them look rather silly and the whole thing less interesting than it could be. (Even if I had something illegal, I'd probably just dumb if before they catch up.)



Honestly, I'm thinking about removing crew levels altogether. They complicate a *lot* of things under the hood, and at this point - with officers in play, and all of the crew impact working through CR - they don't add much anymore.

Agreed, I wouldn't miss the different ranks. I think more colorful crew varieties could help much more to "bring the world to life". I'm thinking rare specialist classes (medical, engineering, accounting) that change corresponding fleet stats. Here different pay grades would be make sense and be player controlled. Or passengers: refugees, diplomats and tourists that earn you money/rep but maybe consume certain goods. Basically, turn the vertical crew levels into a horizontal palette of interesting options.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2016, 07:18:40 AM by Gothars »
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The game was completed 8 years ago and we get a free expansion every year.

Arranging holidays in an embrace with the Starsector is priceless.

Schwartz

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Re: Starsector 0.7.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #383 on: March 01, 2016, 08:22:03 AM »

I second Gothar's observation. I buy rare weapons and the occasional ship on the black market. I try to mix it up with a reasonable amount of regular trading, but if I buy an expensive ship, the suspicion level will skyrocket and it'll be close to impossible to bring it back down. The result is that patrols pick me up a lot but most of the time aren't even able to give me a penalty.

Over the course of the game, this has led me to several conclusions:

- Even though I trade both ways, suspicion level will steadily increase with no obvious impact to bring it back down. -> This should be more forgiving. As I understand it, once you're done trading and return to the market a second time, you can't decrease your 'old' suspicion level by fair trading. You should be able to. Being scanned and found innocent should also decrease suspicion level, I don't know if it already does this.

- Black market trading and patrols are two very separate things. I assume only a tiny, tiny fraction of players will actually buy illegal goods. It's mostly to get otherwise faction-locked stuff. And patrols can't reprimand you for this. -> Either flag ships and weapons as illegal when you buy them (huge gameplay hassle to have them taken from you again), or make patrols do something a little different if they catch you with hot weapons. Like giving you a market ban for X days, making you pay fines amounting to missed market fees + X% penalty.
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Embolism

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Re: Starsector 0.7.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #384 on: March 01, 2016, 08:42:21 AM »

Agreed, I wouldn't miss the different ranks. I think more colorful crew varieties could help much more to "bring the world to life". I'm thinking rare specialist classes (medical, engineering, accounting) that change corresponding fleet stats. Here different pay grades would be make sense and be player controlled. Or passengers: refugees, diplomats and tourists that earn you money/rep but maybe consume certain goods. Basically, turn the vertical crew levels into a horizontal palette of interesting options.

I was just thinking that passenger convoys could carry VIPs that could be "looted" and ransomed... although how that would work with Starsector's combat (no quarter ever) would need further thought.
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SierraTangoDelta

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Re: Starsector 0.7.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #385 on: March 01, 2016, 10:12:54 AM »

There's a feature in Nexerelin where fleets will sometimes drop Prisoners of War that can be traded to factions for a rep boost or sold to them for money, or sold as slaves for even more money.
I do like the idea of 'transport' missions where you have to transport a VIP, or a large number of people, to a specific planet. It adds mission variety and gives a use for some of the underused ships like the big Starliner transports.
Different types of crew members are also a good idea, like Medics decreasing the number of crew that die when a ship blows up, engineers that boost repair speed or reduce supply use, etc.
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Dri

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Re: Starsector 0.7.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #386 on: March 01, 2016, 10:19:35 AM »

Heh, not really a "hot"fix anymore, more of a lukewarmfix by this point. :P
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Wyvern

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Re: Starsector 0.7.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #387 on: March 01, 2016, 10:39:29 AM »

I'd reconsider doing that unless you feel the game really needs the change.  Crew levels are pretty nice flavor if nothing else knowing you brought up people from raw trainees to experts at fighting and maintaining spaceships.

I'm sure more could be done to alter their mechanics to something more satisfying if desired, but I'd like to see them stick around.

They're good flavor, yeah, but not much else. And in terms of the complexity they add, it's not even close in terms of what they bring vs what they "cost".
Tossed some thoughts about crew over here; a way to (I think) remove most of their complexity without losing the flavor.
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Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.7.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #388 on: March 01, 2016, 11:15:34 AM »

Hotfix is up!

Heh, not really a "hot"fix anymore, more of a lukewarmfix by this point. :P

Aw, come on - it's at least full on "warm", still :)
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Dri

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Re: Starsector 0.7.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #389 on: March 01, 2016, 11:20:01 AM »

I suppose the Wolf was too fragile and the phase skimmer is too hard to use for new players. Thus, it got the AXE as a starter/restart option.
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