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Author Topic: no idea what to call this topic so ill call it imaginary battles?  (Read 7547 times)

RandomnessInc

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I made this thread to hear what people think would be a cool 1v1 battle (if the ship is a carrier it has fighters/bombers) of ships in game Vs. ships from other franchises.


To start this off ill be referring to a really old mod, i would like to see the TTS Omega Vs. an Executor Super Star Destroyer


If you dint know what the omega is here it is
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Dri

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Re: no idea what to call this topic so ill call it imaginary battles?
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2016, 07:02:12 PM »

Good God, that thing would take 10 min just to slot in all it's weapons.

How much of that thing is original work and how much is kitbashing?
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ValkyriaL

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Re: no idea what to call this topic so ill call it imaginary battles?
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2016, 07:17:41 PM »

Shape wise i have to say it kind of reminds me of Destiny from stargate universe.
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Ranakastrasz

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Re: no idea what to call this topic so ill call it imaginary battles?
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2016, 03:41:07 AM »

Shape wise i have to say it kind of reminds me of Destiny from stargate universe.
[/quotei think destiny is pointier.
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ValkyriaL

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Re: no idea what to call this topic so ill call it imaginary battles?
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2016, 03:47:47 AM »

She is pointier for sure, but the shape isn't to far off, a High tech destiny? :P

http://destiny-project.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/sgu_110.jpg
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Doom101

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Re: no idea what to call this topic so ill call it imaginary battles?
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2016, 05:52:53 AM »

   The problem with comparing ships to star wars ships is that the cannon numbers for things like power produced by a reactor, among other things like the wattage of lasers is neigh impossible, in other words george lucas had no idea what he was doing so he assigned numbers that " sound" good, thus resulting in absurd power imbalances, for example the power output of an acclamator cruiser is stated to be around 300 million Gigawatts, whereas something closer to solid sci fi, such as star trek the enterprise-D has a power output of either 3.6 gigawatts ( or 50 terawatts, depending on who you ask) (And for the record some of Earth's largest naval ships can generate 500 megawatts when at peak performance)

  So even a pitiful acclamator cruiser dwarfs real ships and ships in star trek, so the question is where do SS ships come in? well we don't know for sure how much power a ship can put out because flux is an unknown substance and the reactors only produce flux. However we also know that SS takes place in a time where the domain of man has come to an end, and apparently the domain of man was based on Earth, so this is far into the future, so let's give SS the benefit of the doubt and say, that ships of similar size will have similar power outputs( i'd like to point out this is unlikely), So the executor is ... 19,000 meters long. and is roughly a pyramid shape meaning it ends in a point, and extends outwards like a pyramid as it goes towards the rear end, And then tapering back off rather sharply after the engines. An Acclamator cruiser is 752 meters long and has roughly the same shape, minus the tapering rear end. In SS i believe the largest vanilla ship is the paragon, and it's nowhere near that size, it also has a minimum crew of 450, and a maximum crew of 1,000. So the paragon comes in at about half the size of the Enterprise-D mind you this is assuming the paragon has spacious crew areas like the enterprise, which it probably doesn't, which would make it smaller. And much more similar to the Constitution class enterprise which comes in at 289 meters

So let's say the paragon comes in at 300 meters, that would make this TTS omega roughly 1,000-1,300 meters, and while that is big, it's 14.6 times smaller than the Executor. However as we all know size doesn't mean much if you can't use it properly ( a hyperion destroying an onslaught for example) so we must go deeper.

Shields are a good place to start, in Star Wars movies, shields are almost a non-factor, every ship has them, and yet never once do we see high energy blasts being absorbed, except for droidekas, and the gungan shields in episode I, and these shields can simply be walked through, meaning they do NOTHING against ballistics, or even asteroids in space, only energy weapons. In some star wars games shields DO stop energy weapon blasts, however they don't do anything against ballistic weaponry such as missiles or torpedoes.  However shields in SS stop EVERYTHING, ballistics, energy weapons, slow moving objects such as asteroids or fighter craft.

So shield wise SS clearly comes out on top, and since SS uses a LOT of missiles and ballistic weapons Star wars shields would be useless against low and midline tech ships

Weaponry wise, the TTS ship there has 10 large energy slots, 30 medium energy slots and 26 small energy slots and no identifiable missile slots. Which is an issue for the Omega because as previously stated the Executors shields only work against energy weapons, which is all that the Omega is bringing to the table. ( that i'm aware of, if it has other weapons in game please tell me)

Meanwhile the Executor comes bristling with Over 5,000 turbolasers and ion cannons

Assuming that wookiepedia's entry on turbolasers is accurate a standard turbolaser beam is three times as powerful as a standard laser, For SS that would probably translate to a pulse laser ( medium mount)

I was unable to find any specs on the executor's fighter and ground complements, HOWEVER we can assume it has at least some because all ISDs have full complements of these things, so we can extrapolate a complement based on its size using the Victory II class star destroyer as a starting point.

So a Victory II comes in at 900 meters and carries a complement of:

24 Tie fighters
5 Lambda class shuttles
10 AT-AT walkers
15 AT-ST walkers
10 Juggernauts (link at bottom of page for those who don't know)

The Victory II also carries a crew of 6,107, and an extra troop compliment of 1,600.

So all we have to do to find a rough estimate of the executor's complement is multiply that, by 21 ( which is how many times smaller a victory II is comparatively)
So we come out to

504 Tie fighters
105 Lambda class shuttles
210 AT-AT walkers
315 AT-ST walkers
210 Juggernauts


A crew of 128,247 and a troop compliment of 33,600

The TTS Omega seems to have 3 Astral flight decks, so that would be 18 flight decks total and as we all know you should only have 3 wings per flight deck for optimum usage, so the TTS omega can bring 54 wings of fighters into battle with it, assuming fighters only that the TT would use, they are limited to

Daggers
Longbows
Wasps
Xyphos
Tridents
and possibly
Thunders ( i can't remember if TT uses Thunders, can someone confirm/deny this?)

Now even using only the most numerous fighters, ( wasps) that only comes out to 324 fighter craft.


Ultimately i conclude that the TTS Omega is a non threat to the Executor, given it's huge complement of ties it would likely just fire from afar while dispatching a legion of bombers and fighters towards the Omega.






Things i used in coming to my conclusion

http://i.imgur.com/TwmOomi.jpg   - scale chart including SS
http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/191accgnmnevzjpg/original.jpg   -scale chart without SS ships but many others.
https://www.quora.com/In-an-all-out-war-which-star-fleet-would-win-Star-Trek-or-Star-Wars   - similar argument article
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_naval_reactors   - naval reactors IRL
http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=6046.15   - a post about SS ship scale
Shields from Empire at war for star wars games.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Executor-class_Star_Dreadnought   - wookiepedia on the Executor
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/HAVt_B5_Juggernaut   -Juggernaut
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Victory_II-class_Star_Destroyer   -Wookiepedia on Victory II ISD
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Turbolaser/Legends   -Wookiepedia on Turbolasers






Also i reccomend Sci-fi Showdowns as a name for the topic
« Last Edit: January 24, 2016, 08:55:54 AM by Doom101 »
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Aeson

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Re: no idea what to call this topic so ill call it imaginary battles?
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2016, 04:12:07 PM »

Quote
in Star Wars movies, shields are almost a non-factor, every ship has them, and yet never once do we see high energy blasts being absorbed, except for droidekas, and the gungan shields in episode I, and these shields can simply be walked through, meaning they do NOTHING against ballistics, or even asteroids in space, only energy weapons.
Evidence for the ineffectiveness of Star Wars shields against gun-type weapons appears to me rather lacking.
Spoiler
The Gungan army's shields in The Phantom Menace appear to resist the passage of the battle droids - note that the droids appear to lean into the shield as they try to pass through, and stagger a little just after having passed through, in a manner suggesting that a force opposing their passage has just disappeared. The Gungan city shield is demonstrably capable of selectively permitting the passage of matter - it keeps out water but permits Jar Jar Binks, Obi-Wan Kenobi, and Qui-Gon Jinn to pass through. Also in The Phantom Menace, we have clear evidence that the kinds of shields mounted by the Trade Federation's Droid Control Ship are capable of stopping torpedoes, and if the shield can stop a torpedo there is no good reason why it would not stop an impactor which lacks the ability to propel itself.

In Revenge of the Sith, Anakin needs to disable the shield protecting the Invisible Hand's hangar bay before he and Obi-Wan land, which suggests that that shield would have stopped their fighters.

In A New Hope, we are told that the thermal exhaust port is protected by 'ray shields;' that the type of shield is specified and that the inability of that type of shield to protect against physical projectiles is reasonably explicitly stated suggests the existence of a shield that protects against the passage of solid matter. The Death Star likewise suggests the existence of a shield which protects against solid matter. After all, there should be a reasonable number of asteroids (or ships, given how large Star Wars ships can be) of a size sufficient to cause an extinction-level event; if a shield protecting against orbital bombardment can be bypassed by the simple expedient of dropping a rock on the planet and you desire a planet-killing weapon to instill fear in those who might oppose you, I would suggest that you look into developing means of dropping large rocks on planets rather than pursuing the far more expensive solution of building a moon-sized warship that can blow up planets.

In The Empire Strikes Back, the Rebellion has access to air support during the assault on Echo Base whereas the Empire does not; while it is possible that Vader's Star Destroyers did not carry suitable craft, this would seem unlikely given that the Star Destroyers included vehicles which could only be intended for ground assault and so presumably would have carried vehicles of types appropriate to support them in that task, and so the evidence would suggest that the shield protecting Echo Base in some way impedes the passage of aircraft. Supporting this is the fact that the Rebellion would open the shield for a short time around the launch of each transport and its escorting fighters, which suggests that the shield does not permit flying craft to penetrate it, though this is again circumstantial evidence. Also circumstantially supporting the idea that Echo Base's shield protects against solid objects is that General Veers credited it with being capable of 'deflecting any bombardment' - note the distinct lack of qualifiers like "other than torpedoes," and if you accept material not demonstrated within the films then at least earlier warships like the Acclamator assault ships and Venator Star Destroyers carried torpedoes for the purpose of orbital bombardment so it's not exactly out of the realm of possibility, especially since given just how fast Star Wars hyperdrives appear to be ships which have such weaponry should be able to arrive at Hoth rapidly if Vader wants them even if the ships he brought with him did not have such weapons. Further supporting this idea is that the Rebel air cover chose to approach the Imperial walkers from more or less directly ahead rather than circling around and making an approach from a direction which would be protected from the fire of the walkers; assuming that the Rebels are not stupid and that the Rebel fighters are not so slow or short-ranged that the relatively small additional distance required to circle around to approach the walkers from the flanks or from behind, some explanation is required for a head-on approach (additional Imperial forces which have at least the same level of anti-aircraft capability as the known Imperial force would be one possible explanation; a shield which impedes the passage of high-speed objects is another). Vader's follow-up assault forces appear to have landed much closer to Echo Base than the walkers did, and were apparently unable to begin their landings until receiving word that the shield was (about to be) down, suggesting that the shield in some way impeded the passage of the landing craft. Later, the Millenium Falcon is struck by an asteroid and suffers no visible damage, not even to the paint, which suggests that the Millenium Falcon has some form of protection against kinetic impactors that prevented its hull from sustaining any visible harm from the impact.

In Return of the Jedi, the Rebel fleet is commanded, with some urgency, to 'pull up' away from the Death Star because the shield is still up. If the shield is not capable of impeding the passage of ballistic weapons, it would seem unlikely for it to be capable of impeding the passage of the Rebel fleet and so the urgency with which the order to 'pull up' was given would seem difficult to justify. The Rebel infiltration squad likewise requested deactivation of the shield before landing on Endor; while that arguably may have been for the sake of appearances, it does suggest that the shield impedes the passage of ships into the region protected by the shield. During the actual space battle at Endor, several fighters are seen to crash into ships - both Star Destroyers and Mon Calamari cruisers - without causing any apparent damage. According to Wookieepedia, the A-Wings that attacked the dome on the Executor's tower fired missiles (though I always thought they were lasers; they look fairly similar to the lasers employed elsewhere in the engagement and we never see missile weapons employed like that in any other attack), and something like 12 of them struck the dome or its shield before the shield failed and the dome exploded.

Finally, there is also the distinct lack of evidence within the movies for any heavy warship employing physical projectiles, self-propelled or not, as the primary means of attacking other heavy warships. Given that an A-Wing can penetrate the hull of a ship like Executor and explode in said ship's command center, and given that Admiral Piet is not concerned about things impacting his ship until he's told that his bridge has lost its shielding, it would be reasonable to assume, firstly, that at the very least some Star Wars warships have shielding which protects against high velocity physical projectiles, and secondly that if Star Wars warships were not generally protected by such shields that it would be within the capabilities of Star Wars technology to develop some kind of projectile weapon which at least some large warships would attempt to use instead of turbolasers in an effort to bypass the shielding which is effective against Star Wars turbolasers.
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I would also point out that it is not beyond the realm of possibility that there is some velocity-dependency in the effect of shields upon the matter attempting to pass through (consider, for example, the difference between jumping into water from a low ledge and falling into water from a great height, or the difference in the resistance felt trying to wade through water slowly as opposed to swiftly), or that there is some oddity of Star Wars shields which permits things which are literally grounded to pass through them when things which are not literally grounded cannot - the Trade Federation's hover tanks were happy enough to close with the Gungan army (to the point that Jar Jar was able to jump onto one and hang off its main gun for a bit) after the shields were disabled, after all, but they did not attempt to pass through the shields.



While I generally agree with your conclusion that ships using the Starsector tech base likely pose little real threat to something like the Executor, I don't really agree with how you arrived at that conclusion - especially unsupported assumptions like "pulse lasers are equivalent to unspecified 'standard lasers' which are supposedly about a third as powerful as turbolasers." The statement that you cite that suggests that turbolasers are three times as powerful as 'standard lasers' can at least as easily be saying that turbolasers are three times more powerful than equally-large 'standard lasers' as that turbolasers are three times more powerful than some weapon of unknown power which is called a 'standard laser.' Moreover, even were you to interpret the statement in the latter fashion, you run into the issue that there are different weights of turbolaser - ranging from the huge dorsal turbolasers flanking Star Destroyer command towers to the relatively small turbolasers fired against Rebel fighters attacking the Death Stars and Star Destroyers. Which of those turbolasers is the one being compared to a 'standard laser?' If all turbolasers are equally powerful, why are they of differing sizes? What makes Starsector's Pulse Laser a good match for this hypothetical 'standard laser?'

A far more reasonable approach is to attempt to establish the power levels of the weapons in each setting. For example, the lowest estimate of energy delivered per shot by a Star Destroyer turbolaser that I can recall seeing is in the terrajoule range. The codex entry for the Antimatter Blaster tells me that each shot contains 10 micrograms of antimatter and it appears as though the matter-antimatter annihilation upon impact with the target is the primary mechanism by which the blaster causes damage; this tells me that an antimatter blaster delivers no more than about 1.8e9 J (1.8 GJ, or 0.0018 TJ) of energy to the target with each shot. Antimatter Blasters are the energy weapon with the greatest damage per shot in Starsector, suggesting that all other energy weapons should deliver less energy per shot. This would suggest that all of Starsector's energy weapons deliver at least three orders of magnitude less energy per shot than Star Destroyer turbolasers. If Star Destroyers are reasonably resistant to their own armament, it would therefore be reasonable to assume that Star Destroyers are virtually immune to even very large numbers of Starsector's energy weapons.

We could also estimate the energy released by a Reaper torpedo's detonation since we know its diameter (assuming the Codex follows real-world conventions when it tells us that the Reaper is a 550mm torpedo) and can use the sprite to establish its other dimensions, and also know from the Codex that the warhead is an antimatter-catalyzed nuclear warhead (which means that most of the energy released should be from the nuclear component of the warhead). Unfortunately, the Star Wars movies do not offer a useful point of comparison; we never see explosive weapons used against capital ships in a way that would allow us to establish how well Star Wars defenses protect against explosive weaponry, and I don't think that there are any scenes which provide a good way of establishing the power of the explosive weapons used in Star Wars anyways. The same is true for kinetic impactors (the asteroid impact which appears to destroy a Star Destroyer's command tower in The Empire Strikes Back can provide a lower bound, though we don't know how many other asteroid impacts that Star Destroyer had suffered, how frequent those impacts were, or how large the impactors were, nor do we know how much of the impact energy would take to destroy the ship's command tower, and this causes issues for using that scene to establish the kinetic impact resistance of Star Wars shields; other scenes which might be usable typically involve fighters colliding with larger ships that appear to suffer little or no damage from the impact, which is even less useful), with the added issue that Starsector's codex does not, to my knowledge, provide any information which could be used to establish the kinetic energy of the projectiles fired (well, there are a couple of weapons for which the projectile dimensions are known to at least some degree, and the Gauss cannon description says that the projectiles that it fires move at relativistic speeds, but none of this is specific enough to be particularly useful).
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Doom101

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Re: no idea what to call this topic so ill call it imaginary battles?
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2016, 01:03:08 AM »

@ Aeson,

Hmm on the topic of shields I clearly need to go rewatch all the movies, because those are obvious examples, not sure how i missed all of that.
Also I meant to delete that bit about the pulse laser, because in my own proof-reading I wasn't quite sure what made me write that bit, guess i missed it on the editing sweep, oh well, not going to remove it now that you've mentioned it.

I know too little of real life antimatter to debate your findings about energy weapons, but if that was our best shot in SS, then it doesn't really matter what else we can throw at it, we're not breaking a star destroyer, let alone the Executor with anything SS can throw at it.

Also as a side note i found more info on the Executor, however it is expanded universe stuff, so if you prefer to stick to canon then turn back now,
Spoiler
Reactor has a peak power output of  7.73x1026 Watts.
it's shields are generated by 2 KDY shield domes ( again no information on what TYPE of shield this is, but we can assume they can fire out of it)

It carries a minimum of 144 Ties but can be loaded with "thousands"
200 "various" assault/ support craft
30 AT-AT
40 AT-ST
and 2 prefabricated ground bases.

Its armament was 2,000 turbolasers firing in groups of 8 ( 250 groups)
another 2,000 heavy turbolasers firing in groups of 8 ( again no information on what kind of difference there is between a turbolaser versus a heavy turbolaser)
250, assault concussion missile tubes, that can fire 30 missiles each before reloading ( what the reload process entails is again, not specified)
250 Heavy Ion cannons
40 tractor beam projectors
and 500 point defense laser cannons

once again no specific information is available on "point defense laser cannons" but we can presume that they hit their target, unless they are fired by stormtroopers then who knows. In fact this may be why we never see explosives used against capitals in a meaningful way, they are SO good at shooting down torpedos and such that no one bothers with them anymore and prefer energy weapons that are impossible to intercept without shields ( or face tanking)
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« Last Edit: January 25, 2016, 01:04:51 AM by Doom101 »
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ValkyriaL

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Re: no idea what to call this topic so ill call it imaginary battles?
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2016, 01:45:23 AM »

Considering that we today have means to shot down or turn almost any projectile or missile into a dud or scrap metal given the right equipment, id say that in the time that Star wars takes place, projectile weapons are obsolete in every way imaginable,

I also remember some episode in (Star trek: The Next Generation) when the Enterprice( this time a galaxy class) encounters this tiny ship armed with laser cannons that tells them to stop or be destroyed, and Jean-Luc says that "lasers??? those things can't even scratch our navigation shields, what do they hope to accomplish here??".
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Aeson

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Re: no idea what to call this topic so ill call it imaginary battles?
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2016, 12:28:35 PM »

Quote
I know too little of real life antimatter
I also know little of real-life antimatter, but I do know that the energy released by annihilating a certain amount of antimatter can be computed with the formula E = m*c^2, where E is the energy released, m is the total mass annihilated (so mass of antimatter + mass of matter, and both masses should be equal) and c is the speed of light in a vacuum. Since a Joule is a kg*m^2/s^2, the above formula will give an energy in Joules if m is in kg and c is in m/s. We know that there are 10 micrograms of antimatter, so the mass used should be 20 micrograms or 2e-8 kg, and c is 3e8 m/s (or a more accurate number, if you prefer).

I also remember some episode in (Star trek: The Next Generation) when the Enterprice( this time a galaxy class) encounters this tiny ship armed with laser cannons that tells them to stop or be destroyed, and Jean-Luc says that "lasers??? those things can't even scratch our navigation shields, what do they hope to accomplish here??".
I would tend to suggest caution in reading that scenario too literally. It should be remembered that the lasers in question are fired by a tiny and not particularly advanced vessel which presumably does not have significant power generation capabilities; it is entirely possible that the Enterprise can be harmed by lasers, but not by lasers with as little power as that particular ship could provide. Taking the statement to literally mean that the Enterprise is immune to any and all laser weaponry is kind of like taking the statement that battleships are immune to rifle fire to mean that battleships are immune to the fire of rifled heavy artillery pieces. It is a valid but incorrect reading of the statement; rifled artillery pieces are by definition 'rifles,' but they are not the kind of rifles meant in the statement.
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Re: no idea what to call this topic so ill call it imaginary battles?
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2016, 02:06:04 PM »

this sort of thing is blurred way too much by two things, the first is that science fiction writers have no sense of scale (see star wars) and that often the FTL capabilities of someone fighting another thing makes no sense. likewise, you'd have to define an actual arena. is this a planet versus planet? empire vs empire? ship vs ship?

try to match up two settings with two different FTL drives and having them try to fight each other makes no real sense. you have no real ground to say that star wars' hyperspace and star trek warp can even interact, and it gets even worse when some universes are capable of firing weapons out of FTL-space (star trek can, afaik) which tilts the competition even further.

tl;dr the whole conversation isn't going to produce anything anyone can agree on anyway, though my wager on "most powerful" science fiction setting has and always will be core/arm from total annihilation, considering they have lossless mass/energy transfer, teleportation, nanoassemblers, an exponential growth rate, and weapons with absurd energy output. they are effectively at the end of the tech-tree, physics-wise. even as a scattered remnant of a once-great galaxy-spanning empire they are far more terrifying than most factions in any setting i could name. at their height they spanned the galaxy, most of which is now totally destroyed in a war of a few thousand years.

star trek probably comes close, though. the federation's greatest impediment in terms of galactic destruction is their sense of morals; give me a few replicators and a few weeks and i could hand you some of the most lethal weapons you could dream of.
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RandomnessInc

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Re: no idea what to call this topic so ill call it imaginary battles?
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2016, 02:18:32 PM »

O_O didn't think it would get this technical
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Re: no idea what to call this topic so ill call it imaginary battles?
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2016, 02:45:14 PM »

BTW

starwars has two types of shields.

Shields and deflectors.

Shields stops attacks dead on thier tracks and are only useful if the shield is more powerful then all the enemies weapons. Then there are deflectors that *deflect*  the power of all shots aimed at it to a certain degree.

This is why we see ships not powered get blow up in one blast, or taking hundreds to take down when they are flying around.

Also perhaps deflectors need space to work, as starwars *lasers* or plasma shots are more potent at close ranges where the deflectors dont have enough time to work their sifi magic.

This also limit combat ranges of ships and why in episode two, ships can pound at each other for almost an hour. But a less then 1km broadside brought a perfectly fine ship down in just two barrage.
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