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Starsector 0.95a is out! (03/26/21); Blog post: Skill Changes, Part 2 (07/15/21)

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Author Topic: Skill Revamp: What to do with bonus Ordnance Points?  (Read 10079 times)

Wyvern

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Skill Revamp: What to do with bonus Ordnance Points?
« on: December 17, 2015, 02:25:00 PM »

I'd actually like to see this go away as a direct skill perk (yes, optimized assembly too) -  it's too mandatory; you can only ignore such bonuses if you're completely ignoring combat.  Plus it's difficult to allow the AI to benefit from it without going the SS+ randomized variant route.

However, a number of ships (and hull mods!) are designed to make for interesting decisions that change with varying amounts of available ordnance points.  For example, at the current base game with no +OP bonuses, you'd never want to install either of the hull mods that grant extra flux capacity or venting.  At +50% OP (back when that was a thing), there were cases where you really did want the extra benefit, even if it was highly inefficient.

Instead, I'd suggest following the path started with the XIV variants, and providing bonus ordnance points for elite hull variants.  This would (hopefully) tie in well with the Industry skill, as well as tech-mining for rare blueprints - both things that aren't yet in the game, but hopefully will be when the skill revamp comes.  Or, of course, the player could purchase such elite variants from an allied faction (commission mechanics, or perhaps even from selling a rare blueprint that the player doesn't have the skill to use), or even capture them from their opponents - thus providing multiple paths to acquire these superior ships.
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Dabor

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Re: Skill Revamp: What to do with bonus Ordnance Points?
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2015, 02:42:05 PM »

I can't help but agree. Stuff like having single missiles cost 0 instead of 1 takes away the virtue of leaving mounts empty, and the bonus OP sometimes outright enable stuff you can't have otherwise, especially in regard to building a small ship around a single flux-expensive weapon.

The idea of being able to produce ships that inherently have these bonuses rather than just magically applying them to anything that comes under your command seems great.

It'd be fine if the OP upgrades were an expensive option to enable on ship production, adding more value to that ship in both offense and defense. If you're fighting an opponent with +30% OP and cheaper weapons, you can't actually capture their "elite tweaked" ship with the setup intact - if it becomes an on-production bonus, it helps clarify the differences between the weaker and stronger variants of a ship in a way that'll have value into the late game, rather than just being a speed bump of "oh well I can't stick those few extra capacitors on yet, just lemmi clear up this pirate fleet."
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Megas

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Re: Skill Revamp: What to do with bonus Ordnance Points?
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2015, 02:55:02 PM »

Answer to title?  Keep them, if base ship stats stay as they are.  Ships have too few OP until I get +30% OP and Optimized Assembly.  Even then, ships like Hammerhead and Gryphon still have too few OP.
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Gothars

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Re: Skill Revamp: What to do with bonus Ordnance Points?
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2015, 03:00:04 PM »

Mh, I think this is going a bit too far. Yes, the current amount of OP you can get is quite ridiculous - ships with full capacitors, vents, the best weapons and ten hullmods are the norm. When you perfectly configured a ship for its role and still have dozens of OPs to spend, so you slap just on random stuff, it just feels wrong.  
But on the other hand completely killing bonus OP would make certain very interesting variants impossible. And it would make the unlocking of hullmods far less potent - you could just not use many of them in a meaningful way.

I think a severe reduction in maximal obtainable bonus OP would suffice.
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Vind

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Re: Skill Revamp: What to do with bonus Ordnance Points?
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2015, 03:01:25 PM »

If you remove OP bonus skills many hull modules will be not used as ships wont have much space for them without skills bonus OP. Frigates especially as they too OP starved even with bonus OP points from skills and  speed hull mod almost mandatory for them to be viable in capable AI hands. Maybe instead of bonus OP some integrated hull mods can be installed once unlocked by skills and each ship will have different types and number of hull module slots for them so you cant install all.
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Wyvern

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Re: Skill Revamp: What to do with bonus Ordnance Points?
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2015, 03:05:43 PM »

Keep them, if base ship stats stay as they are.
But on the other hand completely killing bonus OP would make certain very interesting variants impossible.
If you remove OP bonus skills many hull modules will be not used as ships wont have much space for them without skills bonus OP.

Instead, I'd suggest following the path started with the XIV variants, and providing bonus ordnance points for elite hull variants.
Apparently I was not sufficiently clear.  I am not suggesting removing bonus ordnance points from the game, merely removing them from skills.
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Gothars

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Re: Skill Revamp: What to do with bonus Ordnance Points?
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2015, 03:18:22 PM »

Mh, but why? The problems you mentioned (mandatory OP skills) would go away by just reducing the cost efficiency of the related skills. And I think future gameplay will favor "make do with what you have" over "spend your time collecting the best stuff", so reducing flexibility and growth potential of hulls seems counterproductive to that.
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Weltall

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Re: Skill Revamp: What to do with bonus Ordnance Points?
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2015, 03:19:31 PM »

Apparently I was not sufficiently clear.  I am not suggesting removing bonus ordnance points from the game, merely removing them from skills.

I thought the bonus OP are the ones that you get from Leveling the Technology skill tree and 2 of it's skills. If you remove them from the skills, or in a way just remove the skills, since the skills are there just for the points, where you will get bonus OP from?
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Dark.Revenant

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Re: Skill Revamp: What to do with bonus Ordnance Points?
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2015, 03:20:46 PM »

Reading comprehension allows me to point out that the original post of the thread holds the answer to your question.
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Wyvern

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Re: Skill Revamp: What to do with bonus Ordnance Points?
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2015, 03:24:55 PM »

Mh, but why? The problems you mentioned (mandatory OP skills) would go away by just reducing the cost efficiency of the related skills.
Because we've done that once (+OP from 50% to 30%), and it's already closed off some interesting build options and made certain hull mods much less useful / relevant.  I don't want to see that happen again.

I'd much rather see this particular benefit be something that you can get in different ways - from acquiring rare blueprints and using the industry skill to manufacture your own superior hulls, to using high level tech skill unlocks to upgrade existing ships, to going Hegemony Attack Dog and outright buying elite hulls off their military market, to going Leadership and marines and capturing the ships you want to be using.
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Weltall

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Re: Skill Revamp: What to do with bonus Ordnance Points?
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2015, 03:30:20 PM »

Reading comprehension allows me to point out that the original post of the thread holds the answer to your question.

My best guess is that the OP skills would be replaced by OP buffed variants of the ships? So that means the AI would be able to use the best possible builds too? Wouldn't that make the game less fun and more chess? Not that chess is not fun, since you play on the same terms, but that would mean players that go for small fleets or as i read around some people saying a single one with rare help, would have to throw away their fun time and stick to a more strict game.

Except if of course these ships are going to be used only by special commanders, making some indeed epic battles available, without the player wondering if he could take on a fleet three-four times his. Then again if these ships are going to be used by special commanded, It might as well be these commanded having the extra OP and having better builds of the current ships. Of course if that would benefit the game, removing the bonus OP and it would make it more consistent, I guess there will always be mods for people that want something easier.


I'd much rather see this particular benefit be something that you can get in different ways - from acquiring rare blueprints and using the industry skill to manufacture your own superior hulls, to using high level tech skill unlocks to upgrade existing ships, to going Hegemony Attack Dog and outright buying elite hulls off their military market, to going Leadership and marines and capturing the ships you want to be using.

I like the idea of capturing something that would make you feel "Now this is a prize!"
« Last Edit: December 17, 2015, 03:33:18 PM by weltall »
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Wyvern

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Re: Skill Revamp: What to do with bonus Ordnance Points?
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2015, 03:41:26 PM »

My best guess is that the OP skills would be replaced by OP buffed variants of the ships? So that means the AI would be able to use the best possible builds too? Wouldn't that make the game less fun and more chess? Not that chess is not fun, since you play on the same terms, but that would mean players that go for small fleets or as i read around some people saying a single one with rare help, would have to throw away their fun time and stick to a more strict game.

Yes, yes, I don't think so, and that's already happening just with officers*, respectively.

Personally, I've always found it to be kinda cheatery that I can put together ship variants that the AI can't; part of my reasoning for this suggestion is to make it easier for Alex to close that gap without needing to resort to completely randomized variants.

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* I prefer to run solo flagship - Apogee before energy weapons lost high flux damage bonus, Dominator once ballistics lost their ammunition limitations - and I'm finding that's not viable in .7; I need at least some supporting ships with officers to counter opponents with large numbers of high-level officers.
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Vind

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Re: Skill Revamp: What to do with bonus Ordnance Points?
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2015, 03:49:06 PM »

Enemy AI have huge advantage in deployment points unless you haul 5+ heavy cruisers in fleet roster just so you get bigger fleet and deployment point advantage yourself. This is enemy advantage - player forced to play in 1 overpowered ship and chain deploy them vs enemy or herding "smart" AI officers who cant kill anyone without help 99% of the time as they cant fight against superior numbers at all.
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Weltall

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Re: Skill Revamp: What to do with bonus Ordnance Points?
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2015, 03:57:39 PM »

I did mean it that if it will make the game better and more consistent I am aye for it. Your idea actually adds extra gameplay, along with the satisfaction of "OH GOD, I FOUND THE BLUEPRINT FOR KICKASS!" <- pure happiness lands on the player.

But tell me I am wrong if not in all games the player always has an "extra" boost as the "hero", making it possible for him to indeed feel like a hero better than the others. Even with those variants, a slight boost of 10% would give the player the feel of superiority. I can't say I find the game easy or hard myself. If anything I know that it is more of at times luck and other times not being too stupid and remaining alive XD

But again in all games the player always has something the AI does not. There are games that are closer to chess, like for example Crusader Kings. Indeed the game is great (I love it) but it will close off people that want to have fun. Instead of totally removing OP bonus (dat overpower bonus), would it be plausible to "remove" it in a way of difficulty? I am not sure if difficulty is something the game will get, but it would satisfy all the people. Easy for people that want 30% more OP, normal for a less 10% and hard for people that want to test their skills without training wheels.  

As for the better rare variants that will be really hard to get <- love the idea.
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Wyvern

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Re: Skill Revamp: What to do with bonus Ordnance Points?
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2015, 04:05:03 PM »

But tell me I am wrong if not in all games the player always has an "extra" boost as the "hero", making it possible for him to indeed feel like a hero better than the others.
For me, that extra boost is just being not an AI.  There are fights I can win without taking damage to armor that the AI would lose.  There are times I've dodged a torpedo just by turning as it goes past, or nailed an entire wing of fighters with the three-shot burst from a plasma cannon.  That's the sort of thing that makes me "feel like a hero", as it were.

Adding bonus OP on easy, perhaps instead of the current 50% damage reduction to flagship, though... that has some merit.

(Aside: note to self, run a game on easy just to see how much of a difference that makes; should make solo non-chain flagship a much more doable prospect.)
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