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Author Topic: [0.95.1a] Diable Avionics 2.70rc3 (2023/04/13)  (Read 1285177 times)

Zdubfreelancer

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Re: [0.95a] Diable Avionics 2.64rc1 (2021/12/11)
« Reply #1605 on: January 09, 2022, 09:53:31 PM »

So, after looking at and trying a bunch of different modded factions like 120 or so hours, This Faction easily the coolest and really want to thanks flash and whoever helped him make these. You have my upmost admiration and respect. Makes this game way cooler for a fan of mecha like myself.

I wanted to give my 2 cents after using only diable ships in campaign because they clash waaaaay to much with other ships besides a few volkov and a few exotic ships. I like that volkov weapons match up well with this faction as well...and they definitley enhance the abilites of especially the cruisers. I do have a few cents to offer and some suggestions though.

Wishlist:
weapons:
diable version of the caliope saturation missile, ( anti shield saturation )

a LRM emp missile saturation version

diable railguns, but really this is just for fluff....volkov railguns work really well on diable ships.

diable version of a disabler, cc beam or debuffer.

expanded ecm warfare options, because alot of factions guns outrange even high end diable weapons.

a way to deal with phase cloak effectively using only diable tech.

Ships:
a cruiser that transforms or rather opens to reveal a really giant laser canon or railgun...op but will be really fun to use in game.

a capitol fuel hauler, in diable colors and style.

a unique dedicated capitol hauler... see no man's sky for reference. There is some pretty mecha looking freighter ideas there that would fit the diable motif.

A Diable style Fleet Carrier, that could also be the ship with the giant laser......carrying at least 7 bays...id put it in the same category as the pandemonium in power level and would act as its partner. suggested loadout would be 2 heavy missile slots 2 medium universal 4 small hybrid 4 small universal, built in laser/railgun 7 wanzer bays built in mods: improved wanzer gantry, upgraded version of the regular, some kind of cnc mod, an ecm mod and targeting core.

Edited the Pandemonium to remove that ridiculous fuel and supply drain it has to bring it in line with other dreadnoughts...its the only ship in the diable fleet that can go toe to toe with some of the crazier exotics floating around in modland...and not for nothing makes a hell of a centrepiece for the fleet, and allows aggressive expansion. Really should take a look at it and balance wise it's fine it does what a dreadnought should do, id go as far as adding a way to upgrade it outside of op to carry frigates or do in battle repairs to smaller ships not just wanzers. Or upgrade it as a mobile base...complete with storage ect...its that big of a ship to warrant a base level infrastructure including fuel and supply generation. not sure how hard that would be to code in, but ill take a look myself ^_^

all in all this is by far the best faction expansion mod available by a long shot....both i quality and aesthetic. I have some other ideas...and I am willing to help make it happen in my free time. This is my 4rth adventure modding a game....cant wait to see what it looks like in a year.

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Zdubfreelancer

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Re: [0.95a] Diable Avionics 2.64rc1 (2021/12/11)
« Reply #1606 on: January 09, 2022, 10:21:11 PM »

Yeah I had same issue with wedge like ships....but the virtuous blueprint is in the game, found it by raiding diable forward base. Alternatively I recamend using console to give yourself the blueprints, cause theres really no reason you shouldnt have them off the bat. My midgame fleet is running 4 virtuous 1 of each type with the ai implant mod , so i can control them at will to deal with the flanks or assist the line. the trick is to make sure you have ENOUGH wanzers run lots of carriers....armed with lrms and micromissiles time your wanzer strikes with missiles and youll turn anything not a heavy cruiser into space paste. The pandemonium is an ideal line holder supported by hayles and ecm destroyer carriers in the back, mealtrom is midling...because 2 siege guns is no joke...1 is meh. Run around with the virtuous to keep things in check its a solid and scary fleet of 15 combat 5 carriers and 5 haulers, 2 fuel haulers and 3 salvage rigs. make sure you have enough hayles...as they sometimes get merced by guass and beam ships or enemy fighters.
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Tartiflette

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Re: [0.95a] Diable Avionics 2.64rc1 (2021/12/11)
« Reply #1607 on: January 10, 2022, 12:49:46 AM »

Thanks... I think?

Couple of thoughts on the suggestions:
Quote
diable version of the caliope saturation missile, ( anti shield saturation )
diable railguns, but really this is just for fluff....volkov railguns work really well on diable ships.
diable version of a disabler, cc beam or debuffer.
If something already exists in another mod, why would I add it to Diable?
Quote
a LRM emp missile saturation version
I played with a mod that had that, it was infuriating and completely ruined the fun when facing it. I could see myself adding some sort of EMP-based missile but it would not be a "saturation" one.
Quote
expanded ecm warfare options, because alot of factions guns outrange even high end diable weapons.
You have the Dampened Mount hullmod for that. Besides in vanilla only the Gauss Cannon out-ranges all Diable weapons in the same mount type.
Quote
a way to deal with phase cloak effectively using only diable tech.
State Beams, LazyHorns and Wanzers?

Quote
a cruiser that transforms or rather opens to reveal a really giant laser canon or railgun...op but will be really fun to use in game.
It's still not going to happen, for the same reason as the last 30 times it was suggested: The issue with transforming ships is that there are few gameplay options that really work: speed/firepower, speed/defenses, firepower/defense. But while it is quite fun to toggle between such modes on a small ship with fast gameplay, on a cruiser you would end up with either a barely used system (move fast to the battle-line, press F to unfold into fighting mode and that's it) or one mechanically equivalent to various existing ship systems (fortress shield, burn drive, damper field, that kind of thing) with pretty visual fluff. The problem with the later is that transforming a cruiser would take time compared to the couple seconds for a frigate, and I don't know for you, but I'd hate it if my ships took a 5 or 10 seconds pause to transform before starting to fire or move again (noticed how big transforming ships in games are usually NPC bosses?). Not even mentioning that small ships can get away with murder when it comes to imprecise collision bounds and decorative weapons shenanigans, a cruiser could not.

TLDR, lot of work for little positive gameplay pay-off, if any.

Quote
a capitol fuel hauler, in diable colors and style.

a unique dedicated capitol hauler... see no man's sky for reference. There is some pretty mecha looking freighter ideas there that would fit the diable motif.

A Diable style Fleet Carrier, that could also be the ship with the giant laser......carrying at least 7 bays...id put it in the same category as the pandemonium in power level and would act as its partner. suggested loadout would be 2 heavy missile slots 2 medium universal 4 small hybrid 4 small universal, built in laser/railgun 7 wanzer bays built in mods: improved wanzer gantry, upgraded version of the regular, some kind of cnc mod, an ecm mod and targeting core.
I won't comment on the ships that may or may not be planned in the future.

Quote
Edited the Pandemonium to remove that ridiculous fuel and supply drain it has to bring it in line with other dreadnoughts...its the only ship in the diable fleet that can go toe to toe with some of the crazier exotics floating around in modland...and not for nothing makes a hell of a centrepiece for the fleet, and allows aggressive expansion. Really should take a look at it and balance wise it's fine it does what a dreadnought should do, id go as far as adding a way to upgrade it outside of op to carry frigates or do in battle repairs to smaller ships not just wanzers. Or upgrade it as a mobile base...complete with storage ect...its that big of a ship to warrant a base level infrastructure including fuel and supply generation. not sure how hard that would be to code in, but ill take a look myself ^_^
I'm not going to balance a mod against other mods, that only leads to undesirable arms-races. The Panda is able to take on all the vanilla capitals, I think the price is appropriate for that kind of performance. If I were to change it into such "centerpiece", I would have to restrict dramatically its availability, maybe even make it unique. If I did that, I suspect I would get screamed at even more than I already am for "ruining the Pandemonium".

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Lainema

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Re: [0.95a] Diable Avionics 2.64rc1 (2021/12/11)
« Reply #1608 on: January 10, 2022, 11:01:21 AM »

Love this mod, thanks for creating it (and keeping it updated)!  ;D
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Zdubfreelancer

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Re: [0.95a] Diable Avionics 2.64rc1 (2021/12/11)
« Reply #1609 on: January 11, 2022, 03:52:27 AM »


Quote

    Edited the Pandemonium to remove that ridiculous fuel and supply drain it has to bring it in line with other dreadnoughts...its the only ship in the diable fleet that can go toe to toe with some of the crazier exotics floating around in modland...and not for nothing makes a hell of a centrepiece for the fleet, and allows aggressive expansion. Really should take a look at it and balance wise it's fine it does what a dreadnought should do, id go as far as adding a way to upgrade it outside of op to carry frigates or do in battle repairs to smaller ships not just wanzers. Or upgrade it as a mobile base...complete with storage ect...its that big of a ship to warrant a base level infrastructure including fuel and supply generation. not sure how hard that would be to code in, but ill take a look myself ^_^

I'm not going to balance a mod against other mods, that only leads to undesirable arms-races. The Panda is able to take on all the vanilla capitals, I think the price is appropriate for that kind of performance. If I were to change it into such "centerpiece", I would have to restrict dramatically its availability, maybe even make it unique. If I did that, I suspect I would get screamed at even more than I already am for "ruining the Pandemonium".

well, tbf because most diable ships get merked by other mods ships is why i edited the files... when fighting on the line especially against a heavy carrier based fleets the wanzers get merked and then they advance and without a ship like the pandemonium to hold the line while the carriers are reloading end up in a bad spot....(has happened more then once, even lost a panda), I'm starting to mess around with giving them a little more op 10 for frigates, 20, for destroyers and 25 for cruisers and capitols...brings them in line and can carry the efficiency mod on almost all of them making supply tolerable early to mid game when your just helping expand the faction n raiding/exploring/salvaging. The fuel and cr rates are what kills it because with mods like vicious sector your facing back to back invasion fleets or vengeance fleets especially if you go to war with one of the major factions... it's more of a balance for heavily modded games. I can see just basing it off vanilla parameters though and your reasoning super sound and I understand why you wouldn't want to base yours against other mods....but thats why i spent the time too lol ^_^ your awesome for even making this no worries.

the caliope thing is more to just bringing it to motif style...really just a aesthetic thing. Blue grey and yellow looks really dumb on red and black and white lol , and i know there is skins but just for 1 weapon system is silly. Actually trying to find the file and change the colors myself lol. Copy paste paint job....cause its a weapon that really helps and compliments the micro missile spam. I have a save with most cruisers carrying them, and with the eccm mod they really stand out and do some work...giving that extra punch for the wanzers to to get in there and do there thing.

It's against dassalt where diable struggles the most.... the fighter screens are thick 30+ fighters in there high end fleets....it gets hairy real quick. Have had to retreat the line a few times after a 20+ minute *** match even with a panda and supporting ships carrying crazyhorns and carriers can't quite crack that nut lol but I suspect with a fleet carrier and some LR artillery and spearheaded by the panda ill take their homeworld...finally.






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OperaWolf

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Re: [0.95a] Diable Avionics 2.64rc1 (2021/12/11)
« Reply #1610 on: January 11, 2022, 01:35:29 PM »

Hey, wanted to say how much I enjoy this mod. In Nex I pretty much always start off commissioned by Diable Avionics, and my fleets always wind up with plenty of their ships and weapons. Some special mentions:

I love the designs. They're so good! The Maelstrom is a favorite of mine. The Pandemonium has fat little thighs which is kind of funny, but it looks amazing loaded up with guns. I love how a lot of the ships have such interesting shapes, and the red/white looks fantastic. I know there's a lot of great color swaps, but I can never pull away from the classic colors. I think probably the only designs that I'm not into personally are the Cirrus and Stratus since they kind of look like a block with thrusters, but I guess that describes most trade vessels, huh?

The Maelstrom and Pandemonium's system ability is really great during line-fighting; being able to quickly turn to meet flankers or push up/fall back feels really good on a capital ship, and it works nicely with how their shields are set up. It feels great to hold the line with them and be able to move with shifts in combat quickly with something so bulky.

The Haze is my favorite ship out of any faction mod, hands-down. It feels so good to use. I used to pilot capital ships (more bigger = more better, right?), but the Haze is just so much more useful for me personally. The flicker core lets you plug gaps and put out fires quickly, it has just enough guns to throw down and be scary, the missiles let you set up and take advantage of openings, and the ship itself is durable and dangerous enough to make a difference wherever you put it without leaving a massive hole in your line when you move it, like when you pull a capital ship away.

And then the Wanzers (love Front Mission, by the way)! Between this and Arma Armatura I don't field traditional fighters anymore. It's all mechs, all the time and my enjoyment has skyrocketed because it, since I'm a nerd.

So yeah! Thanks for making this! I absolutely love it!
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Tartiflette

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Re: [0.95a] Diable Avionics 2.64rc1 (2021/12/11)
« Reply #1611 on: January 11, 2022, 03:01:38 PM »

 ;D
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Kanjejou

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Re: [0.95a] Diable Avionics 2.64rc1 (2021/12/11)
« Reply #1612 on: January 11, 2022, 06:28:03 PM »

A little question about the Daze ship system what are its exact effects? Because he look a tad, meh compared to the Haze since it cannot zip around to use short range Mid size guns. And since it doesnt spam flux free missiles it doesnt feel as good(even full breacher allow to reach enough flux free damage to take an advantage on other ships.... but maybe its just a ship I can't use well, any gun config that seem to work well on it?.

Amazing ship mod by the way.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2022, 07:32:30 PM by Kanjejou »
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OperaWolf

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Re: [0.95a] Diable Avionics 2.64rc1 (2021/12/11)
« Reply #1613 on: January 11, 2022, 11:12:31 PM »

Daze always feels like a line ship/poker to me. It's big and wide, which means it's easy to hit, so setting it up to soak those hits and keep a long distance from what its shootings at helps it a lot. You can try some armor tanking on it and run it a bit hot, or focus on shields and be a bit more flux-neutral. I generally like Banish and Thunderbolt missiles, but since the hardpoints are small I go with Thunderbolts (8 missiles each instead of the single Banish per slot). Thunderbolts do armor damage, so you may want to run four guns that help drop shields. I like to shield tank with Hypervelocity Drivers from vanilla Starsector; good range, not too much flux, and they add on some EMP. For the small hybrids you can run PD weapons to help with enemy/missile spam in the line, or focus on more burst damage/EMP, but usually offensive options are pretty short range so be careful. Another option other than something like the Hypervelocity Drivers are Energy (Beam) weapons with the extended range hull mod that only works with beams (forget the name). Lets you poke at targets from a very long range, which keeps you safe and dangerous at the same time. If something tries to pull away and vent flux, decently often you can just keep hitting them, so they either cook or pull way, way out of the fight for a bit. For both setups I like ECCM, since your Thunderbolts hit hard and you want them to make it through. Whatever you go with, find something with some range on it since the Daze is a big target and gets eaten pretty quick if it gets caught out in the open.

As for strategy, keep it with other ships in big fights and work on your target's shields with your guns. When they start to cap their flux, hit your ability and try to spike them out into an overload. If they don't overload, the EMP effects from the Hypervelocity Drivers (or energy weapons, if the ones you pick have EMP) should cripple them enough to make a missile strike viable. Then you hit the Micro Missiles, and a moment later the Thunderbolts. The Micro Missiles are pretty useless for damage, but what they're fantastic for is to screen useful missiles. Enemy PD systems will go nuts trying to kill them all, so your Thunderbolts can slip in and get a kill. Rinse and repeat. Just remember to stay with the group and don't overextend and you should have a better time with the Daze.
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Tartiflette

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Re: [0.95a] Diable Avionics 2.64rc1 (2021/12/11)
« Reply #1614 on: January 11, 2022, 11:51:45 PM »

Since there has been a lot of talk about Diable's balance in the last few week, here are my personal thoughts:

Concerning the combat ships, I think almost all of them are in a good place except the Storm (that still has a split personality) and to some lesser extend the Daze (that is quite boring all things considered). I'm still considering my options for the former, but the later might simply get a new more impactful system, either firepower+armor-related or missile-related.

Concerning the weapons, same thing. Maybe the small Banish will become 2-shots like Vanilla, maybe there will be minor tweaks to the Hexafire, but overall I feel confident they all have a niche they are good at without being "the best ever".

Concerning the Wanzers, now this is where I feel more work is needed. The Strife is still far and away the most useful wing of them all, while some of the bigger models overlap too much to have distinct personalities. Too many of them are really good against frigates while only one is worthwhile against large ships. At the same time, it may only require a couple of simple changes to vastly improve the situation, like a clear anti-shield Wanzer, and moving the Thunderbolt launcher from the Strife to another model.

Concerning the logistic ships, those are relics at this point. I do plan to put some work into them at some point but I've been caught working on so many flashier things I never had the courage to deal with this more tedious task.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2022, 08:41:02 AM by Tartiflette »
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OperaWolf

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Re: [0.95a] Diable Avionics 2.64rc1 (2021/12/11)
« Reply #1615 on: January 12, 2022, 08:31:27 AM »

I echo you on the ships; I think they feel really good to play. Only outliers I personally encountered are:

1. The frigates, which are honestly fine, they just seem to blow up on me a lot so I trend towards tougher frigates (Brawler et al). Just personal.
2. The Daze, which has two major problems as I see it: A) it's a huge target and doesn't do anything to counter/utilize it. It isn't super tanky to eat those hits, and it isn't super offensive to make taking those hits worth it. B) It doesn't really fill a role. It's kind of just...a ship. Especially with Cruisers, competition for a slot is fierce and in all cases I'd take a Haze instead since it has pretty much the same loadout, a thinner profile, and a flicker drive. Updating its system sounds like a solid idea, and another option that might be interesting for it would be to utilize it's small slots more heavily for fleet PD duty. Maybe set it with Integrated PD AI? The player could either up-gun it with damaging smalls and be aggressive, possibly utilizing an updated system to take advantage, or just keep them as PD turrets that simply work better than average and keep it in the fleet line to protect against missile/fight spam.
3. The Pocket Gust, which is kind of...weird, I guess? Nothing against the ship, it just always seemed like an oddity in the fleet for some reason. Maybe just me. It's a tiny Gust! Kind of cute.

For weapons, if the Banish was 2-shots in small slot I'd definitely use it there more often. It's a good opener and a strong missile type for ships that already have armor damage covered. I also really enjoy the launch/track/ignite system they use. It's really fun in-game.

With Wanzers, I...honestly don't know what to use half the time. I kind of pick what seems good and just assume they're doing good things. It's hard for me to parse what they're doing/capable of doing like I can with ships just by stats, and some of the Wanzer descriptions are a little confusing for me. The lore on them is awesome, but I have a hard time figuring out what they're meant for sometimes, and I have zero idea what most of their systems are or do since it's just a quote. I usually just go by the tag - "Bodyguard means it kills fighters I guess?", etc. Vanilla fighters are easier on me; I know what a Talon, Broadsword, and Khopesh all do from their loadouts and especially their descriptions and can make easier decisions, but I -like- using Wanzers so I take those instead, even if I don't really know what's going on. I guess for me, mostly I'd just like a clearer picture for what each Wanzer is intended for and what it does. As a player I'm relying on the tooltip to understand your intent with the item, so preferably they should be as clear and transparent as possible (not saying they shouldn't have cool lore in them though).
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Kanjejou

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Re: [0.95a] Diable Avionics 2.64rc1 (2021/12/11)
« Reply #1616 on: January 12, 2022, 08:56:40 AM »

Are stratus fractus and Rimes models considered Logistics ships?
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SpaceDrake

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Re: [0.95a] Diable Avionics 2.64rc1 (2021/12/11)
« Reply #1617 on: January 12, 2022, 09:45:14 AM »

Are stratus fractus and Rimes models considered Logistics ships?

They are indeed tagged CIVILIAN in the files, so they do (or should) get the buff from the Bulk Transport skill.

Note that the normal Rime and pirate Rime remain warships, even though with the P-Rime the line gets blurry.

edit: also, you mean the Chinook. The Fractus is a combat carrier, remember.
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Kanjejou

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Re: [0.95a] Diable Avionics 2.64rc1 (2021/12/11)
« Reply #1618 on: January 12, 2022, 11:32:12 AM »

Are stratus fractus and Rimes models considered Logistics ships?

They are indeed tagged CIVILIAN in the files, so they do (or should) get the buff from the Bulk Transport skill.

Note that the normal Rime and pirate Rime remain warships, even though with the P-Rime the line gets blurry.

edit: also, you mean the Chinook. The Fractus is a combat carrier, remember.

Yes, I will then add the Chinook and the fractus in my question.

Maybe if the Daze had the Diable avionic special line ship mod, the Dampened Mount, it would be a 25 extra OP that push the ship into the long range pressure cruiser
« Last Edit: January 12, 2022, 01:08:14 PM by Kanjejou »
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Killsode

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Re: [0.95a] Diable Avionics 2.64rc1 (2021/12/11)
« Reply #1619 on: January 13, 2022, 04:44:33 AM »

2. The Daze, which has two major problems as I see it: A) it's a huge target and doesn't do anything to counter/utilize it. It isn't super tanky to eat those hits, and it isn't super offensive to make taking those hits worth it. B) It doesn't really fill a role. It's kind of just...a ship. Especially with Cruisers, competition for a slot is fierce and in all cases I'd take a Haze instead since it has pretty much the same loadout, a thinner profile, and a flicker drive. Updating its system sounds like a solid idea, and another option that might be interesting for it would be to utilize it's small slots more heavily for fleet PD duty. Maybe set it with Integrated PD AI? The player could either up-gun it with damaging smalls and be aggressive, possibly utilizing an updated system to take advantage, or just keep them as PD turrets that simply work better than average and keep it in the fleet line to protect against missile/fight spam.

i'm not sure what you mean by it not being tanky enough to eat those hits, used the daze with 2 hvel and 2 maulers and it was the fleet anchor when i used it, while the rest of my fleet was popping one by one my daze was sitting there with its shields still up popping the opposing one by one, it was like a blockhead that kept dealing damage.
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