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Starsector 0.98a is out! (03/27/25)

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Author Topic: Capital Neural Integrator Dynamic Cost per DP  (Read 2033 times)

BigBrainEnergy

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Re: Capital Neural Integrator Dynamic Cost per DP
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2023, 11:55:12 PM »

For what it's worth I would rather NL cost me DP rather than OP. Your flagships are more powerful, but the rest of your fleet shrinks to compensate which seems fitting for a flaghship focused skill.

As a side note, given that it's a capstone it would also be nice if the hullmod also gave 15% cr so you have an actual practical way to get 100% on both ships.
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Megas

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Re: Capital Neural Integrator Dynamic Cost per DP
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2023, 05:32:58 AM »

How does Neural Link make the flagship more powerful?  Flagship already has the fleet commander by default.  Currently, the flagship gets nerfed by the OP tax.

The second one that is a human ship, it can be stronger than a level 5 officer with one skill; not sure how much more than a level 6 officer with 4 elite skills.  For automated ships, I guess that is one way to get a beta/alpha core equivalent into Radiant without crashing max CR down to 50% or less (60 points instead of 240).  Aside from that, alpha cores are better than human officers, and player will need to go all-in into personal skills after getting Tech 8 to match that, so no fleet skills that are deemed mandatory in today's meta.  In any case, the second ship does not inherit the bonus +15% CR from Combat Endurance if the player has that or the bonus missiles from Missile Spec. (but Radiant will be going for Systems Expertise to enable hit-and-run.)

Human ships should not cost more OP.  Player is paying capstone for +1 super officer (commander clone) that does not count toward DP pool, regardless of ship size (which discourages linking with small ships, despite Instant Transfer limitations).  Automated ships, it depends.  Maybe for Remnants, no to Derelicts.  Keep in mind player needs to get two capstones to even link with automated ships.  That leaves seven left for combat/fleet/campaign skills, and player needs combat capstone (and maybe other mobility skills) to make Radiant overpowered.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2023, 05:43:46 AM by Megas »
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BigBrainEnergy

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Re: Capital Neural Integrator Dynamic Cost per DP
« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2023, 04:51:38 PM »

I didn’t mean the skill makes your ships more powerful but that flagships are more powerful in general so getting a second one shouldn’t be free.

Of course, in my mind you’re already paying for that extra power with a capstone… not to mention that if you link capitals then the transfer time isn’t much better than just using a shuttle. It kinda makes me angry how blatantly underpowered neural link is when it’s one of the most fun options.
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Megas

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Re: Capital Neural Integrator Dynamic Cost per DP
« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2023, 05:29:19 PM »

When enemy has as many skills and elites as the player, the fight is probably similar enough to unskilled vs. unskilled battles in the SIM.  Player could beat on-par or perhaps slightly superior enemy in a duel but is not so much stronger as to utterly crush the enemy without getting worn down (whether damage and/or PPT) in the process, so player generally cannot punch far above his weight (if the enemy does not have a glaring weakness) or kill ship after ship without help.  Player control can only do so much.  Raw stats matter too.  Modern Starsector is not like early Starsector when back then player had a massive skill power advantage and could solo an endgame fleet or more with a cruiser or capital.  If anything, modern Starsector is probably more similar to pre-skill releases of Starfarer (before the rename to Starsector) when everything was unskilled, and Hegemony System Defense Fleet had more FP (DP equivalent) than the player could easily support, and three Onslaughts were a terror.

Of course, in my mind you’re already paying for that extra power with a capstone… not to mention that if you link capitals then the transfer time isn’t much better than just using a shuttle. It kinda makes me angry how blatantly underpowered neural link is when it’s one of the most fun options.
Agreed.  Leadership 4 looks more powerful than Neural Link to me.  You get better officers or more officers, and that should affect DP pool.  Oh, and the officer skills also add other minor bonuses.  Neural Link is +1 officer but removes OP from your flagship and one other.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2023, 05:31:52 PM by Megas »
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: Capital Neural Integrator Dynamic Cost per DP
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2023, 12:58:51 PM »

The thing about the Radiant neural interface build, is it is usually a late game build that only feels powerful after several key things come together.  It is a synergistic combination, where the individual pieces don't really stand all that well on their own. Which rules out some potential variety.

I admit, it is fun to pilot a Radiant, but I'm not convinced that is as strong as other late game synergistic fleets and skill selections.  There's also a bias towards the fact it makes the player's issues easier, and it is very clear to the player the advantages you are getting.  Determining what benefits the AI is getting takes a bit more effort and digging, and a lot of watching the AI fight (and thus not piloting yourself).

The player can quicky dart in, eliminate a target, and then skim away to safety and vent, which is very obvious.  But if the rest of your fleet doesn't actually provide a safety bubble for you to skim back into, things get really dicey really quick.  A fleet pushing out or being pushed back can sometimes just be a 15-20% stat swing one way or the other. The ability of your fleet to make that safe space can be somewhat compromised when you put so many points into just the flagship.

I also sometimes make mistakes in it, either overextend in it and then don't quite have the distance to get away, or mis-guess where the skimmer is going to put me.  (Quality of life side note, it'd be cool if pressing down the ship ability key created a ghost image of where the skimmer would go, and then on release, actually skimmed there - it'd let the player adjust vector a bit or wait until a slightly better time, rather than skimming in place due to bad vector and positioning).

If it goes down, that generally is it for that fight, and time for a fighting withdrawal and pull another Radiant out of storage back home.  There's very little resiliency to the build if you mess up, unlike a more traditional fleet build, where transferring to another ship is much easier and brings along all your capabilities.  The rules are quite finicky, so you need another neural link ship to X transfer to, in order to theoretically jump to another Radiant, which means even more penalties to the overall fleet since you're going over 240 DP significantly, at least 62 DP if not more if your neural linked ship is not DP cheap.

Consider, that in order to get the full effect you need to:
1) Be level 13 in order to actually make the Radiant worth it in human hands.  Otherwise, you are better off with some kind of triple s-mod Paragon or an Onslaught with fleet buffs.
2) Find and defeat an Ordo containing a Radiant with at least the Automated Ship Skill picked at the time.  Essentially, you may need to be at the point where you are farming Ordos in order to get a Radiant (or do a specific quest chain and then get lucky in salvage against a Radiant with minimal support).

So it really is a late game thing, so you need to compare against optimal late game fleets.

So is the combo really stronger than some other fully built synergistic builds? Support Doctrine + Derelict Operations?  Best of the Best + Hull Restoration?

Consider for the moment, you can have 1 player piloted Radiant with Systems Expertise + Neural Link + Automated ships, that is down 50 OP (so 270 out of 320) and has at most 2 s-mods, although admittedly sitting at 70% or 85% CR at the start depending on final 2 skill choices at level 15.

Now consider a Best of the Best + Automated Ships + Hull Restoration build utilizing three integrated Gamma Core Radiants, each with triple s-mods benefiting from Systems Expertise, Missile Specialization (which the player one can't really use), Combat Endurance and one more of elite skill of your choice. Thats like a swing of 75 OP for each ship, plus 50% more missiles.  They'll be sitting at 48% CR each, so basically the same as 70% in terms of raw bonuses).  And then you get to back them up with 60 DP of human level 6 officer + 4 elite skill ships.  You can even stick the player in an Afflictor and just support the Radiants with well-timed entropy amplifiers or antimatter blaster shots (still can have 2 tech combat skills and 2 industry combat skills, plus triple S-mod, plus 15% CR from Hull restoration).

Or how about a no flagship fleet with Support Doctrine + Automated Ships + Derelict Operation fleet utilizing six unofficered Radiants with 4 to 5 d-mods each sitting at 50-57% CR each, with some spare DP to spend on human ships. The player can have 50% more Radiants on the field at a time than the Remnants can. Admittedly without alpha cores, but still that's a giant pile of large and medium missile mounts (12 and 24) with expanded missile racks and ECCM on a chassis that is tougher than a Gryphon or Pegasus.

I feel like I need to do some fleet testing with synergistic skill pick Radiant fleets.
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Doctorhealsgood

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Re: Capital Neural Integrator Dynamic Cost per DP
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2023, 01:46:33 PM »

5 points for neural link or 8 for neural link and automated ships
Leaving 7 points left if you go NL+AS or 10 if only NL

If you want to match the performance of an Alpha Core you need 7/8 skills
If you want to match the performance of a [HYPER REDACTED] you need 9/10

Tech tree has the flagship skills Gunnery Implants and Energy Weapon Mastery so you would maybe start with 2 (but the ship has to have energy weapons to begin with to make one of them to actually apply)
If you go the automated ships route you will be short of reaching [HYPER REDACTED] levels of performance on your two flagships if you want to get your hands on the industry flagship skills
This is without mentioning the fact that you gave up a lot of skills that could had been nice to have and also having to take into account the neural interface/integrator nuking your OP and the transfer time probably taking an eternity too anyways

Sounds pretty painful
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: Capital Neural Integrator Dynamic Cost per DP
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2023, 04:32:09 PM »

5 points for neural link or 8 for neural link and automated ships
Leaving 7 points left if you go NL+AS or 10 if only NL

This is without mentioning the fact that you gave up a lot of skills that could had been nice to have and also having to take into account the neural interface/integrator nuking your OP and the transfer time probably taking an eternity too anyways

To be fair, a bunch of those skills on the way to Neural Link and Automated ships are pretty good.  Navigation is a first pick for many players.  Then Gunnery Implants + Energy Weapon Mastery is solid if you're planning on piloting a high tech capital or Remnant.  Flux Regulation and Cybernetic Augmentation are both good general bonuses for a fleet.  Phase Coil Tuning is basically necessary if you are running any phase ships.   ECM can be good against non-Remnant enemies, assuming you are running some frigates.

Essentially, it is a question of which capstones you want, rather than specifically the number of skill points to those capstones (other than the fact it limits you to a maximum of 3).

I would tend to agree though, that if you consider say a Tech 8, Industry 5, and Combat 2 build, so 6 combat skills, the 50 OP cost does seem out of place since you don't have Systems Expertise to make the Radiant mobile enough to be worth those particular 3 capstones.  I've tried that skill variation, and at least for me, was not nearly as impressed with it.
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Megas

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Re: Capital Neural Integrator Dynamic Cost per DP
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2023, 04:54:14 PM »

I would tend to agree though, that if you consider say a Tech 8, Industry 5, and Combat 2 build, so 6 combat skills, the 50 OP cost does seem out of place since you don't have Systems Expertise to make the Radiant mobile enough to be worth those particular 3 capstones.  I've tried that skill variation, and at least for me, was not nearly as impressed with it.
That was my experience too when I tried Tech 8, Hull Restoration, and the final two skills being Helmsmanship and Impact Mitigation.  Three skimmer charges at normal recharge rate?  SIM Onslaught had no problem keeping up with my skimming flagship Radiant with burn drive.  Similarly, if I got mobbed by frigates, skimming only bought a little time before the frigates could swarm again, and I am back to square one struggling not to get mauled by a frigate mob.  Oh, and Radiant without Helmsmanship and elite Impact Mitigation is very sluggish, and without Systems Expertise, skimmer alone is not good enough to fix Radiant's lack of mobility.

If I want to play flagship Radiant, 13 skills are a lock at Tech 8 and Systems Expertise.  That means no capstone in Leadership or Industry.  Also, no officer skills in Leadership, and no Industrial Planning to bad planets ruled by my commander if I avoid AI cores in colonies.

Radiant with Systems Expertise and some Omega weapons is quite strong and can jump all over the place.  It loses only -15% CR per deployment so even if it cannot kill as fast as Ziggurat with Omega weapons, it can retreat and fight more rounds before CR gets too low.  Reality Disruptor is brutal, and Radiant has the mounts to use it (to freeze an enemy) and a bunch of other heavy weapons along with it.
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Brainwright

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Re: Capital Neural Integrator Dynamic Cost per DP
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2023, 09:28:58 PM »

What about making NL hullmods cost no to minimal OP and making them increase DP like with CH instead?
I feel like that is counterintuitive as the purpose of the player piloting ships with their own skill is to provide greater DP value for their flagship than under AI control.
Increasing ship DP to accommodate player piloting basically nullifies that. It feels... wrong.

Hmm, that's an interesting idea! It doesn't have to nullify it, right? Just bring it closer to a "balanced" value, whatever that exactly means in this case. I don't think that's fundamentally different from having a high OP cost, either way you're getting a bit less ship for the DP you pay for it.

I want to point out that increasing DP or recovery costs are underutilized as balance tools.  Maintenance and fuel costs are logistical penalties and that just makes using them more annoying.  And it doesn't have any effect on balancing the ship in combat.  The best ship will always be the only ship you need so long as it is a matter of one more atlas.  Given the limited fleet size, one ship that can replace several will always be preferred.

Increased DP has a strong effect on fleet composition, and is probably the best fit for high-tech style low ppt ships.  You can even scale the DP cost by how many capture points you have or other factors. 

Increased recovery costs solely act on fighting and scale with using the ship poorly.  A ship too precious to use continuously is a good thing.  It breeds specialization.  You could have really exotic weapons add a recovery penalty as well.  This is a rather fun tool.
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BaBosa

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Re: Capital Neural Integrator Dynamic Cost per DP
« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2023, 07:01:40 AM »

Increased recovery costs is more likely just going to make people fight in a way that the ship doesn't get damaged or just wait around for it to recover and be frustrated. This can work for ships whose whole purpose is to be overpowered, i.e. Ziggurat, but for normal ships it just adds an annoying wait or grind.
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