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[WhisperDSP]

I now understand why people hate the Persean League. I truly get it. A 15-fleet blockade is "whoa what the heck?!"



For comparison, this is a fairly heavy detachment of my character - 15 fleets that are projected to outmatch this, plus battlestations, plus ground defenses, plus planetary shields:



I mean, yah, I'd sweat too. A Grand Armada. Especially when, going out to meet them in Hyperspace:



The Persean League Grand Armada. Yeah. This isn't a "blockade", this is a "we are going to use your face to wipe our boots, repeatedly". You don't send a Grand Armada out to blockade a four-planet system at the edge of the known universe.

So. Keeping in mind that I'm a really poor player. Cannot even pilot a ship (my reflexes are bad). They went down easier than I thought they would - admittedly I cut my teeth on the lesser fleets first and split things up a bit:



And...that was it? You're done?



For some reason I was feeling especially annoyed. I cannot quite pinpoint why - so I picked up nearly 2k of marines and pursued them through Hyperspace. Took out another 5-6 fleets on the way to Kazeron.

Then blew up the starbase, did a tactical bombardment, and mopped the floor with Kazeron until they were at about -9 stability. Dropped 80 gamma-cores on the local administrator and hit the road.

But yeah. I can totally sympathize with some players when they see that lot on the way. It is flipping cuckoo.

[Megas]

Currently, it is the combination of huge number of fleets, too easy to trigger (two worlds at size 4 and 3+) with no way to avoid short of abandoning a colony (other major factions do not need such drastic measures to avoid before size 5), and practically no reward if player does not want to join that makes the League crisis awful for me.  Also, took huge rep loss killing their armada piecemeal, and since I played without most of the hotfixes, surviving League fleets did not leave when the crisis ended, so I had to destroy them completely and personally for more rep loss.  -5s here and there, it all adds up fast.

At least next release, League will have a better reward (by robbing the accessibility from Pirates).  I do not know if the three-world threshold (3,3,4) will always help.  It would have for my last game that had only two good planets (and a gate) in my main system.  If next game I had three or more useful worlds in my main system, I would be inclined to colonize three as quickly as possible.

The Persean League Grand Armada. Yeah. This isn't a "blockade", this is a "we are going to use your face to wipe our boots, repeatedly". You don't send a Grand Armada out to blockade a four-planet system at the edge of the known universe.

Yeah, that looks more like a death march that will wipe your people off the map before they rebuild over your ashes and annex your worlds.

[Bungee_man]

Currently, it is the combination of huge number of fleets, too easy to trigger (two worlds at size 4 and 3+) with no way to avoid short of abandoning a colony (other major factions do not need such drastic measures to avoid before size 5), and practically no reward if player does not want to join that makes the League crisis awful for me.

I think League membership should nullify more crises. That'd make it worth using, and line up better with the text surrounding the crisis. If it took care of the Pirate (Thulian raider base has flavor text on this), Tri-Tachyon, Diktat, and Church crises in addition to the Hegemony crisis, it'd be much more of a valid option for early-game players, and joining for free would be a much more desirable reward.

At present, they just take your money and do nothing except fend off a not-too-strong Hegemony crisis, which is triggered by the same thing as the more dangerous (and not prevented) Luddic Path crisis.

[WhisperDSP]

Also, took huge rep loss killing their armada piecemeal, and since I played without most of the hotfixes, surviving League fleets did not leave when the crisis ended, so I had to destroy them completely and personally for more rep loss.  -5s here and there, it all adds up fast.

Absolutely.

“You Persean morons came in to start bullying all and sundry for a year, going ‘hur hur hur wadda ya gonna do about it? hur hur hur’. Then you get pissy when I beat you to a pulp and kick you in the balls 10-12 times.”

The Persean League Grand Armada. Yeah. This isn't a "blockade", this is a "we are going to use your face to wipe our boots, repeatedly". You don't send a Grand Armada out to blockade a four-planet system at the edge of the known universe.

Yeah, that looks more like a death march that will wipe your people off the map before they rebuild over your ashes and annex your worlds.

Yeah. They sent that to deal with 4 planets (in a system with a cryosleeper):

3x of 1m pop each (2x desert and 1x barren-bombarded)

1x of 1k pop (toxic)

(I built the pops up asap via cryosleeper while using the Pirates and Hegemony as punching-bags.)

[Daynen]

The real good guys are the independents.  You never hear them starting wars, blockading colonies or stealing AI cores.  They just chill.  They're like the capybaras of the Persean sector because you have to purposely go out of your way to make them angry.

[Bungee_man]

The real good guys are the independents.  You never hear them starting wars, blockading colonies or stealing AI cores.  They just chill.  They're like the capybaras of the Persean sector because you have to purposely go out of your way to make them angry.

Independents really do a number on the League's place in the narrative. If some number of these independent planets relied on the League to reinforce their independence (e.g. if the Church were after Baetis for the same reason it comes after the player), and the Hegemony really were expansionist, they'd make a lot more sense.

As it is, it feels like they're tilting at windmills. The Hegemony, at this point, doesn't even care if you're operating a drug den right outside its borders. They're too reasonable and noninterventionist for a faction whose sole purpose is 'defying' them to justify itself.


I get why Independents are implemented the way that they are, but having some/most of the game's independent markets under their umbrella would do a much better job of humanizing them while also paring down the questions that are raised by every single scavenger, explorer, and mercenary fleet being in a military alliance with Nortia and Derinkuyu Mining Station.

Within Hegemony space:

* Nomios and its cryo facilities being in Hegemony space while also being open to everyone makes them feel really weird as a faction, especially in conjunction with Galatia. They're way more kumbaya about these things than you'd expect them to be - moreso even than any real-world nation would be, even ones that are much more laissez faire.

* Agreus is a bit odd, given that it's also in Hegemony space and has very little keeping it independent. I'm not sure how I could justify this, honestly - unless the Hegemony are explicitly "the good guys", there's no way they'd tolerate a full factory complex outside of their economic and political control in their space when it's dependent on them for service anyways. Is there a reason they can't just be a Hegemony market known for independent sentiments?

* Nortia is technically in Diktat space, but they're written as a Hegemony client state of Askonian rebels. I get nobody being at the helm, but it's still odd that the Diktat hasn't crushed them, given that they're (ostensibly) their explicit enemies, and they've had years to fly over, break the defenders, and perform a tactical bombardment on the place, then just decommission all of the industry and bring it back home as scrap to sift through.

* Asharu has very little in terms of leverage, but is in a very Hegemony-controlled system. Given that the Hegemony has a lot of people to feed, it seems unlikely that they'd just let a food exporter stick around outside of their control..

* Derinkuyu is independent, for reasons I'm not really sure of. Given that they hosted pirates, I would think that the Hegemony would come in and clear that up, perhaps forcefully. Given that most of the tutorial presents the Hegemony in a very heroic light, having the reintegration of Derinkuyu occur after the player leaves might add depth to the opening scene.

* Orthrus is a mining world in Hegemony territory that supplies the fuel production facilities on Sphinx. Again, even if the Hegemony were the nicest, friendliest, most perfect polity on Earth, there's no way they'd let it be independent in any meaningful way.

Overall, it seems very strange that, while League-local independent markets all have text relating to how they escaped League control, Hegemony-local independent markets are apparently under no pressure to start paying taxes. I'd add some lines indicating tension with Nomios, and maybe an interaction or two in which the Hegemony intermittently blockades them. They're a nerve center for the sector's rich and powerful, located well within the Hegemony's grasp. I'd make Agreus and Asharu Hegemony markets, and add a line or two about their plucky independent polities gradually being brought to heel by the prevailing winds of the sector (in Agreus's case) or their dire situations being used to justify the appointment of a Hegemony governor (in Asharu's case). Orthrus, given its critical resource and its strategic location, could be said to have been taken over quickly and without any heed to local objections by Hegemony military forces early on in post-collapse history. Likewise, I think Nortia would be more plausible and more interesting if it were explicitly Hegemony-flagged, with some text about the rebels not especially liking the arrangement but recognizing that they don't have any other options. Derinkuyu could be a Hegemony market, with some text about British Navy - style treatment of the locals who turned pirate, even if they had no other options, or the hanging of a few examples while the rest remained as miners to keep the system's economy stable - but were forbidden to leave the station.


Within League space:

* Ilm is effectively a subsidiary of Mazalot, taking in workers and sending home remittances. It could use a better justification for remaining independent, given that it's League-dependent and in a League system.

* Ailmar is portrayed as making deals with other factions to stay out of the local kingdom (and the League). That seems a little too easy, IMO, given what they put the player through. Maybe it'd make more sense to base their independence around the local "kingdom" not wanting to admit them into the League, preferring to deal with them from within the protection of a larger polity while leaving them without it, and at a disadvantage when writing trade deals.

* Eldfell is independent, but explicitly stated to be run by economic power-players on Kazeron. It's a bit strange that Kazeron would let it get out of paying taxes and not act to secure it, given that it contains their refining facilities (instead of those being on Kazeron, for some reason).

These planets could be left independent, as a sort of demonstration that the League, while somewhat expansionist, is willing to let individual markets go without paying taxes as long as they aren't a major threat, don't cause any problems, and would be a hassle to integrate. It'd give some small amount of merit to their claims of supporting planetary self-determination. Maybe add something to their descriptions about appealing to the League for independence, and that appeal being granted - perhaps to keep up appearances, and perhaps because they have nothing worth taking. Alternatively, some kind of League guideline around permitting and guaranteeing independent colonies as a gesture of goodwill could be offered as an explanation for their existence, with Eldfell's local refining monopoly being a part of that outreach.

Other:

* Nova Maxios is the headquarters of the sector's independents. Right now, they've got a story about being plucky underdogs who make it despite the Powers that Be, but nothing really comes to cause trouble for them. Given that they're next to Kanta's Den and a Tri-Tach market, some kind of shady deals could be mentioned in reference to them. Alternatively, they could just be a League market - the League could use one or two success stories, given that almost all of their markets' narratives focus primarily on how awful they are. A working industrial complex with a nanoforge would be a prime target for the Hegemony or Tri-Tachyon, not to mention the nearby pirates. I think their story would be tied up very neatly if those things had caused problems for them in the past, leading their government to officially request League integration and receive military support as a result, almost operating as a mascot for the Persean League (with the rule exceptions and favoritism that entails) due to the very marketable story it lets them tell.

* Baetis, as mentioned, could just be a Church market, with the flavor text indicating that its authorities permit a bit more latitude than other Church worlds, but keeping close watch on the individuals that make use of the extra freedom. To help add a sense of ongoing history, it could formerly have been an independent world, before the Church imposed itself on the local authorities (with some covert assistance from the Luddic Path).

* Cethlenn is a money laundering site for Tri-Tachyon, which fits the faction's profile fairly well and emphasizes that Tri-Tach is a force for laissez faire governance in the sector, if only because oppression is expensive and yields no immediate income. Makes sense to leave it independent.


Overall, I think the independent markets would be more interesting allocated like this:

Nomios, size 3, Arcadia Star System (Independent; contested)

Agreus, size 5, Arcadia Star System (Hegemony)

Nortia, size 4, Askonia Star System (Hegemony)

Asharu, size 4, Corvus Star System (Hegemony)

Baetis, size 5, Eos Exodus Star System (Luddic Church)

Derinkuyu Mining Station, size 4, Galatia Star System (Hegemony)

Cethlenn, size 4, Hybrasil Star System (Independent)

Nova Maxios, size 4, Magec Star System (League)

Orthrus, size 4, Samarra Star System (Hegemony)

Eldfell, size 5, Thule Star System (Independent)

Ailmar, size 5, Westernesse Star System (Independent)

Ilm, size 5, Zagan Star System (Independent)

Instead of a bunch of rabble-rousers that are inexplicably perfectly coordinated, universally beloved by spacers, and tolerated by everyone in power, market affiliation with the Independents would be restricted to interests with either a very strong claim to it or a powerful patron faction with a good reason to forego power projection and tax revenue and back their independence.

[Megas]

* Baetis, as mentioned, could just be a Church market, with the flavor text indicating that its authorities permit a bit more latitude than other Church worlds, but keeping close watch on the individuals that make use of the extra freedom. To help add a sense of ongoing history, it could formerly have been an independent world, before the Church imposed itself on the local authorities (with some covert assistance from the Luddic Path).

Lucky for the Indies that Church does not care about taking over others' worlds if they are not habitable.  Church (or Knights) only care about taking over new habitable worlds (that have Luddic Majority).  Sure, the Church could have other reasons to fully take over Baetis, but if they treat the Indies as same as the player, then Baetis, as a non-habitable barren-bombarded world, would not be worth taking from the Indies.

[Bungee_man]

Lucky for the Indies that Church does not care about taking over others' worlds if they are not habitable.  Church (or Knights) only care about taking over new habitable worlds (that have Luddic Majority).  Sure, the Church could have other reasons to fully take over Baetis, but if they treat the Indies as same as the player, then Baetis, as a non-habitable barren-bombarded world, would not be worth taking from the Indies.

I don't think the crisis are meant to encompass the whole of a faction's policy. Being a habitable world amenable to Luddic settlement (to a degree that threatens production quotas) makes the player's colony a target, but that doesn't mean that being an in-system haven for uncontrolled, unmonitored sin wouldn't do so.

A note: Historically, many religions (including the two big ones) took a substantial interest in exerting authority over brothels, to the point where the Catholic Church ran the brothels in its domain at points. It's understood by religious authorities that sin needs an outlet, but that outlet is almost always directly, rather tightly controlled whenever possible.

[Antelope Syrup]

It's worth noting that Orthrus is in part, kept independent because it serves as a 'mascot' for the Hegemony's willingness to let independent polities maintain their independence if they see fit. It's also just too poor and not worth taking over in general, which is why I assume the Hegemony is usually willing to let many planets be independent, with the asterisk that they usually have some sort of charter or deal with the Hegemony on going for that independence. I don't think the solution here is to force a bunch of independents into the major factions to make the League look better. Some more narrative events that show the Hegemony doing some bad things is preferable because there are a scarce few.

[Bungee_man]

It's worth noting that Orthrus is in part, kept independent because it serves as a 'mascot' for the Hegemony's willingness to let independent polities maintain their independence if they see fit. It's also just too poor and not worth taking over in general, which is why I assume the Hegemony is usually willing to let many planets be independent, with the asterisk that they usually have some sort of charter or deal with the Hegemony on going for that independence. I don't think the solution here is to force a bunch of independents into the major factions to make the League look better. Some more narrative events that show the Hegemony doing some bad things is preferable because there are a scarce few.

> It's worth noting that Orthrus is in part, kept independent because it serves as a 'mascot' for the Hegemony's willingness to let independent polities maintain their independence if they see fit

Where is this stated, and why is this important to the Hegemony? In their interactions with the player, they state that they have to pretend that the player's colonies are already Hegemony controlled. They are very specifically against portraying themselves as willing to let worlds remain independent.

Further, this isn't about making the League look "better" so much as making it look plausible. Their whole deal is that they were formed to prevent the Hegemony from taking over the whole sector, and that their charter establishes and enforces rights for polities and spacers that let them maintain their sovereignty. While the Hegemony's marketing push is "hey, we're going to restore the Domain and make life better for everyone", the League's marketing push is "the Hegemony wants to take everything you have and throw it away on a lost cause". It would be one thing if this were explicitly written as lies and propaganda, but there's no indication that this is the intent - when League characters talk about independence, there are a number of ways to disagree with them, but none of them involve claiming that they are wrong about the Hegemony being expansionist.

It's also about making the Independents less bizarre as a faction/bloc. It makes sense for random backwater markets that nobody's trying to claim to share an alliance meter with the 'general populace' of the sector. Not so much heavily-armed Hegemony-backed rebels, an actual system-spanning polity with a manufacturing base and claimed territory, or the Luddic Church's local opium den.