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General Discussion / [0.9.1a-modded] Mod balancing worth more concern on combo between mods.
« on: April 06, 2020, 07:55:22 AM »
This topic begins with my discusstion in discord on Diable's new blizzaia. Though with a "bomber" tag, it's kinetic weapon and 30-ammo-4-burst grenade makes it more like a heavy anti-ship fighter, in other words, another raven. And I said blizzaia on Matriarch of II would be extremely powerful. Then AxleMC said "Test just your mod alone (along with any dependencies). Always good advice." I just cannot agree, and I would take an example-the champion variant in recent 2nd tournament of Fossic(Forum of Starsector in China).
https://flic.kr/p/2iMwEpZ (I have trouble with image tool on forum...hopes the link works.)
This is an erymantianBoar(I'll use Boar in the following post) in SCY equipped with basic PD weapons, an Ion Beam and 2 Swarm MIRV of SRA. A fleet with 3 Manticore(also equipped with Swarm MIRV), 6 Boar above, 4 SO Brawler and 4 Shark almost defeat every fleet under the rule of this tournament.
OK let's go to the point. Definitely Swarm MIRV is too powerful with 250*10 HE damage and shock wave and low Ordnance Points and INFINITE AMMO, while it's stats is generally equal to non-infinite-ammo missiles. However, put it in SRA and vanilla it's not that IMBA, because ships with large missile slots all have this or that disadvantage-Conquest have a high dp and is ususally viewed as gunship, Apogee is some kind of lacking firepower, Gryphon is powerful but only have 1 large missile slots using 20 dp(the same as Conquest) while it's shipsystem doesn't match infinite-ammo missiles well. However, we've got Boar, a ship having 2 large missile slots, 1 large built-in kinetic missile and a radar-style system which proved to match well with lrm, using only 23 dp.
Of course, large missile in vanilla and in SCY isn't that powerful(some even embarassing). If only consider vanilla and SCY or only vanilla and SRA, the ship or the missile all seems ok. But the variant of combination is terrible. Only shield bypass Onslaught with Devastator and flaks and the cover of Diable's Derecho using its system was proved able to afford this crazy missile tempest.
Another example is DME whose weapons can be described as "all a little stronger than vanilla". These weapons combined with ships "all a little stronger than vanilla" would come to a devastating powerful variant.
I'm not meaning SCY or SRA or DME or Tart or MShadowy or Soren is bad. I really like these mods and really appreciate authors' hard work. I'm talking about a theory of balancing mod just as the topic said, "mod balancing worth more concern on combo between mods". I don't think only testing with mod itself and vanilla and gives it a tag of "generally a little stronger than vanilla" or "generally a little weaker than vanilla" is enough. That's ignoring balance issues.
I would appreciate any friendly disscussion on this topic. I really need your idea, thanks a lot!
https://flic.kr/p/2iMwEpZ (I have trouble with image tool on forum...hopes the link works.)
This is an erymantianBoar(I'll use Boar in the following post) in SCY equipped with basic PD weapons, an Ion Beam and 2 Swarm MIRV of SRA. A fleet with 3 Manticore(also equipped with Swarm MIRV), 6 Boar above, 4 SO Brawler and 4 Shark almost defeat every fleet under the rule of this tournament.
OK let's go to the point. Definitely Swarm MIRV is too powerful with 250*10 HE damage and shock wave and low Ordnance Points and INFINITE AMMO, while it's stats is generally equal to non-infinite-ammo missiles. However, put it in SRA and vanilla it's not that IMBA, because ships with large missile slots all have this or that disadvantage-Conquest have a high dp and is ususally viewed as gunship, Apogee is some kind of lacking firepower, Gryphon is powerful but only have 1 large missile slots using 20 dp(the same as Conquest) while it's shipsystem doesn't match infinite-ammo missiles well. However, we've got Boar, a ship having 2 large missile slots, 1 large built-in kinetic missile and a radar-style system which proved to match well with lrm, using only 23 dp.
Of course, large missile in vanilla and in SCY isn't that powerful(some even embarassing). If only consider vanilla and SCY or only vanilla and SRA, the ship or the missile all seems ok. But the variant of combination is terrible. Only shield bypass Onslaught with Devastator and flaks and the cover of Diable's Derecho using its system was proved able to afford this crazy missile tempest.
Another example is DME whose weapons can be described as "all a little stronger than vanilla". These weapons combined with ships "all a little stronger than vanilla" would come to a devastating powerful variant.
I'm not meaning SCY or SRA or DME or Tart or MShadowy or Soren is bad. I really like these mods and really appreciate authors' hard work. I'm talking about a theory of balancing mod just as the topic said, "mod balancing worth more concern on combo between mods". I don't think only testing with mod itself and vanilla and gives it a tag of "generally a little stronger than vanilla" or "generally a little weaker than vanilla" is enough. That's ignoring balance issues.
I would appreciate any friendly disscussion on this topic. I really need your idea, thanks a lot!