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Messages - Morbo513

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256
Suggestions / Re: Colour code weapons in inventory
« on: May 10, 2017, 08:37:57 AM »
Personally wouldn't find this necessary, you get to know which weapons do what quick enough. But I also don't see why not

I was going to upload a screenshot of my inventory to illustrate but the upload limit meant I couldn't be bothered resizing. Basically it was about 6 rows of weapons and junk which is not a good way for the brain to quickly or efficiently process information. I know what a heavy needler looks like but it still takes a small amount of time and effort to look through and find it.

Granted I do have bad eyesight so it's more of an issue I notice than other people would, but certainly everyone could benefit from having a more streamlined inventory.
No you're right actually, it does make perfect sense. I'd actually like a bit more info displayed about weapons both in the refit drop-down menus and the inventory/trade screens, and preferably expressed with symbols so it's easy to tell at a glance. So take the mount size and colour-coding for weapon type, and throw in a couple more things - damage type, range and rate of fire, flux/s and DPS, and maybe unique ones indicating they have limited ammo, or that they're a point defence. Except damage type, each could be expressed by red/yellow/green in order of quality by mount size. For example a Pulse laser is probably the most middle-ground weapon in the game, so it'd be yellow on all. A tactical laser would be Green on range, ROF and Flux/s, red on DPS.

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For exploration, it's a risk to stop in a system anyway. It costs lots of supplies and fuel. The salvage is your reward for that. Adding additional risk/tedium to your reward just makes it less of a reward.
Yeah, derelicts in unpopulated far-flung systems are the only exception I'd have to this. But making it less rewarding is kinda the point, since the biggest incentive you have for going out to those systems is derelict analysis/running sensor packages/surveying particular planets, each of which have very hefty payoffs with little real risk, mainly just cost - and what risk there is is mitigated by the ease of vessel recovery, and how resilient the player fleet is due to this ability. Even if your fleet is wiped - With the starting cash (And tutorial fleet if you played it) you can open storage and immediately begin building a reserve of recovered ships and weapons, because lord knows there are a lot to be found in and around Jangala at the start.

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If I stop in hyperspace to salvage derelicts, I'm already spending a lot of additional fuel by stoping. If I'm salvaging post battle, I've taken a risk by engaging in a battle in the first place. Point being, most of the time, in order to get salvage, you've already taken risks, adding more is just pointless.
Fuel is an investment, not a risk - usually if you're travelling through hyperspace, you make sure you've more than enough to get to your destination and back. It's the beginning of a compelling choice though. "I've spotted a derelict <Favourite ship>, it'll cost me X of Y fuel to determine whether it's recoverable". X will usually be a tiny fraction of Y since derelicts usually have a minimal sensor profile, meaning you're rarely going far out of your way to get to it - and whether you are or aren't, the value of a recoverable ship is several orders of magnitude beyond that of the fuel (and supplies) spent.
Throw in "Oh, there's an <enemy/neutral> fleet already salvaging it. It's <size> so it'll take roughly Z days for them to complete it at most. I can get there within that timeframe, but I'll probably have to fight a battle to claim it and that's only if they haven't finished before I get there.". Or, "There's a Hegemony fleet patrolling around here, the derelict is outside Jangala. It's outside their sensor range right now, but by their course there's a risk of them catching me. It'll take me half a day to restore it, and they're within a quarter. If they catch me, they'll confiscate or scuttle the ship, give me a fine and I'll lose rep." Instantly much more risk/reward.

As for battles, there's two aspects; the ability to recover your own destroyed vessels, and those of the enemy. In the former case, this makes the losses you sustain in battle a lot less punishing. You risked that loss, yes, but the recovery its self is without risk - if it's recoverable at all, and there are many things you can do to insulate yourself from the possibility of a given ship being entirely lost.
 In the latter case, you're sometimes rewarded with the choice to salvage an enemy ship, but again this choice its self is without risk, it only demands a relatively small investment. For both cases, let's say you've just won this battle, but there's another enemy fleet up your backside, just they weren't close enough to join. Without a timer, you can recover any of those ships immediately and have them in your fleet. You can then play cat-and-mouse with the enemy fleet til they've been repaired and recovered some CR and they're then employable in combat provided you have weapons to equip them with (Which you're more than likely to).
With a timer, this changes. If you start recovering those vessels, the enemy fleet will doubtlessly catch up to you, but let's say for the sake of argument, maybe not necessarily before you've recovered them and they're spaceworthy. You're presented with 3 choices: Cut your losses and abandon those ships, maybe coming around after you've lost your pursuers; Attempt to salvage them before their arrival; Engage the enemy fleet. Which choice you make will depend on how valuable that derelict is to you.
This is much more compelling than the current state of things - Right now there's no reason not to recover every derelict you generate in battle, provided you meet the supply/h machinery and skill requirements of each. Crew is a non-factor since you can simply mothball them and drag them back to storage, or a market where you can hire crew.

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The main exception is if you slink around in an inhabited system trying to pick up the remains of other battles. I don't mind making patrols intervene in that sort of thing or having other hostile salvage fleets. Those are interesting mechanics. Adding time delays is not an interesting mechanic.
And this mechanic requires a time delay to be worth anything. If you can simply wait for a patrol for example to leave sensor range, then instantly salvage the derelict, nobody would get caught doing it except through negligence. If you have to take half a day to salvage it, that patrol might turn around and catch you in the act.


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Restoring ships costs 2-3 times what they are worth brand new, it's not an advantage at all, it's a huge penalty. It certainly doesn't make the game easier.


Note, I've been using "restore" and "recover" interchangeably, my bad. I meant recovering operational derelicts in the first place. Tutorial notwithstanding,  you can quickly build a strong fleet without doing anything to really earn it, just hovering about the battles between Hegemony and pirates, or going out into hyperspace to find a large number of drifting derelicts, or investing the fuel and supply costs to travel to a sector with a warning beacon and likely finding a heap of them there. The most powerful ships in my fleet (2 Onslaughts and a Mora) were found floating around in different systems with a hostile presence, and it didn't feel like I invested or risked anything significant to get them. Now I have a fleet an order of magnitude more powerful than what I had before, at negligible cost, potential or actual. This is the core issue.
 Recovery allows you to gain a ship you might not otherwise have access to through markets or any other means, and in the majority of cases, even having a D-mod ship is more valuable than what you invest to gain it in the first place. You pay a premium to restore it to pristine condition, but this is offset to a huge degree by the payoffs of analysis missions, each of which will probably net you a few new recovered ships by proxy. I don't have a problem with the restoration system myself (In fact I had a similar suggestion a few months back), but the conditions surrounding it.



if you think that *anyone* will be happy just staring into monitor for 20 seconds doing completely nothing
(probably first few times it will be somewhat funny, but only first few times):

A) you are very wrong
B) you need other type of game, there are lots of F2P and mobile\web "games" that does exactly that thing and allows to pay money to skip delay, there are lots of people who enjoy such kind of "fun" for variable reasons, i can't tell that such games are bad and desing is wrong, i simply not going to play such games.
Didn't get the memo letting us know you were speaking for everyone now. The enjoyment from such a change would come from what the timer enables and facilitates, not the timer its self. It's a means to an end, and the only alternative I've seen come up so far is dicerolled events per salvage/recovery operation/survey which would be worse by most accounts including my own. Equating the addition of a 5, 10, 20-second delay to these mobile games where every action takes literal days to complete is grabbing at straws and you know it.

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current implementation of SS obviously is not timesink and there are no delays of any kind with exception to com sniffer, that:
1) 2 seconds
2) can be ignored without any issues
3) you actually need to do it only few times per entire game
"The way it is" =/= "The way it could/"should" be". That's the nature of a suggestion.
1) 5 seconds, translating to 2/3 of an in-game day.
2) Same can be said of salvage/recovery/surveys
3) Ditto. In fact, you don't necessarily ever need to do any of these.

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Suggestions / Re: Colour code weapons in inventory
« on: May 10, 2017, 06:22:17 AM »
Personally wouldn't find this necessary, you get to know which weapons do what quick enough. But I also don't see why not

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Early-game, those 5 supplies or 5 fuel could really help you get by, so you should have to risk something to get them...

The reason those tiny salvage operations exist is to make the early game a little more forgiving. Making those small drops riskier is counter-productive.
And in my opinion, it's too forgiving - and that's not to mention the fact you can start restoring ships right off the bat too.


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As for the actual length of time it takes to salvage/restore this or that, it'd be variable. A minor debris field would be a second or two, while recovering an Onslaught would take maybe 40. To clarify my stance, I care a lot more about the restoration of ships taking time than salvaging unservicable ships/debris.

I'm all for more risk when doing salvage, but why should I have to sit there for an extra 40 seconds? Have some sort of text pop up and say "Oh no! Pirates were hiding nearby and now you have to fight or flee!" Don't make me just sit there for a minute and watch a progress bar. If there is going to be risk, make it a fun risk.
I'm all ears for alternatives. And no, it wouldn't be a dicerolled "Here this happened" event, it'd be an actual fleet interrupting you, or a system authority's patrol saying "That's not your ship to restore". Not that I'd be averse to that being included - but I'd prefer for AI fleets to go around salvaging too, and for you to stumble upon an actual pirate fleet/vessel who'd gone dark.

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It's rather absurd, this desire for games to be like one of those lab experiments where they have rats press a button to get heroin instantly; not all players want it to be all instant gratification; there should be waiting and challenge too.

Again, all for more challenge. No one here is asking for the game to get easier. It's just that no one wants the game to start forcing you to sit there with your thumb up your a$$ while nothing happens for 30 seconds. No fun, no risk, just boredom.
Your assertion that it'd be risk-free is baseless, especially with the last addition to this suggestion. Go hang about a few derelicts in and around populated systems for 30 (Accelerated) seconds at a time. Count how many scavenger fleets, Hegemony patrols, Pirate or hostile fleets cross paths with you, then you'll have some evidence to speak from. In either case, what is objectively incorrect is that nothing happens in that time - As I've said on multiple occasions; passive supply consumption, market events, bounties, mission timers, the safety of the space around you; With Nexerelin or features future versions of the game may borrow from it, these are amplified, not to mention that the factional landscape of the system can be impacted within such time.

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I didn't mean to imply that things taking time is bad. I have just found that 90% of salvage is like 3 supplies and 4 fuel, so it is super obnoxious to have to wait to get very little, its already barely worth picking up. I think some of the disconnect here is exploration vs combat. I spend most of my time exploring, so a lot of my salvaging is small change derelicts and random debris fields and the aftermath of occasional bounty fights and such. Perhaps if you are in a civilized system, the salvage is a lot more substantial and there are many more fleets around to the point where this might make sense. I still think that making salvaging take a significant amount of time would make some parts of the game really boring. It already takes time to do the action, and in my experience, the rewards are minimal.
That's the point. The game is otherwise letting you have each and every one of those small handfuls of fuel and supplies at zero risk and zero consequence, beyond the dice-roll determined loss of crew/machinery, and the slight course alteration to pick up the ones you stumble into. Early-game, those 5 supplies or 5 fuel could really help you get by, so you should have to risk something to get them (And if it's a higher-tier, restorable derelict, even more so). Late game, they're not worth the effort with or without the action to salvage them taking time. Having a system as I described above for a preliminary assessment of what might be gained from a given derelict or debris field will help players determine what is and what isn't worth that time.

As for the actual length of time it takes to salvage/restore this or that, it'd be variable. A minor debris field would be a second or two, while recovering an Onslaught would take maybe 40. To clarify my stance, I care a lot more about the restoration of ships taking time than salvaging unservicable ships/debris.

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I support this suggestion. Just have it as a toggle ability in the same fashion as the transponder.

262
Modding / Re: Spriters judgement thread [non-sprite art allowed]
« on: May 09, 2017, 09:35:30 AM »
Another kitbash, very proud of this one!

    


Rightly so, it looks great

263
Before you're salvaging a ship it should still 'belong' to its faction, and if an uptight faction catches you salving one of their ships, their might be legal consequences (depending on the faction)

Now this I'd like to see, the thought crossed my mind then disappeared completely. Some factions could have a policy that any wreckage in their systems/vicinity of their markets becomes their property (This'd be befitting of the Hegemony; since they're enforcing martial law, they'd want to do what they can to prevent anyone not explicitly aligned them becoming better equipped - not to mention feeding their own war machine. Tri-Tac could be similarly protective over wrecks that belonged to them due to their advanced technology, and not wanting to lose that edge), some could be very liberal, and individual fleets that have generated derelicts/salvage through their own losses or those of enemies they just fought may want to claim them. Rather than the player simply being able to camp battles between other fleets and scrounge the goodies that drop out, or go around salvaging every wreck they see, they'd have to be conscious of who might object to the act, and the consequences - Confiscation of the ship/salvage in question and maybe a fine, outright attacking (Scav fleets, pirates), etc. That act taking time gives those who might have conflicting interests in the matter a greater opportunity to catch you in the act.

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It'd serve no purpose when there's no immediate threat.
As time passes in SS, different things are happening. In all cases, you're passively consuming supplies. Furthermore, bounties you might've wanted to go after might expire, commodity prices might change drastically in the system you planned to return to; if we're talking Nexerelin style features (Which imo, belong in the vanilla game; maybe this suggestion would be more appropriate as part of it though), your favoured faction might've lost some territory, your favourite markets destabilised. Maybe a scavenger fleet turns up in the system and contests the salvage you're after.
As for time vs reward, the negative of this could be mitigated with something similar to the preliminary survey. You hit an ability, all nearby derelicts will now display what type of ship they are, whether they're able to be restored, and something vaguely indicating the possible gains. Without that ability, you'd be able to establish these factors quickly per-derelict/debris field before committing time to the salvage operation its self. This would allow and encourage you to prioritise which derelicts you investigate first.
The consequence is, you're forced to prioritise what you go for. Is it worth the effort for example to scour a wrecked Kite that probably isn't carrying anything interesting? The answer to that question will change depending on what stage of the game you're at. Right now, there's no reason not to check every derelict and salvage every debris field you come across, unless it's in hyperspace and you don't have the fuel to travel between them (Which is an edge case in my experience).

265
Suggestions / Re: Direction Flux?
« on: May 09, 2017, 07:50:05 AM »
Cool ideas. Especially for the second one, I think it'd be best suited to (a) ship(s) purpose built for line-breaking, as an active ability rather than a hullmod applying whenever it vents. A modified Enforcer could work well for it, at the low end of things. Replace all its weapons with a couple of medium and one large ballistic mount - Hold the line, build up flux, then activate it and punch through the enemy ships to throw them into disarray, using heavy firepower to splat a few frigates as they decide which targets they should focus on, now sandwiched. The drawback comes from the ship in question subjecting its self to fire from all the ships it's pushing through without being able to return fire until it's passed, has vented and can put its shield back up. Deployed at the wrong moment, it could be a death sentence. At the right moment, it could lead to a decisive victory.

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The last time I salvaged anything within 10 seconds of an enemy fleet being able to threaten me was a good 70% of the salvaging I've done, particularly post-battle.

You have to be playing with mods that change the game then, because this contradicts everything I have experienced so far playing this game. In my experience, fleets of any meaningful size have always been at least an entire system away from each other. If a time was added to surveying and salvaging, it would just be more time staring at a progress bar with nothing else going on. It would almost be as annoying as those defense drones on every probe. Not a threat, just boring.
I can certainly see that aspect, but it'd still add more than it'd take away in my opinion. I also like the drone fleets - I think they should scale at least to a degree versus the player fleet though. And for the record, vanilla.

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When was the last time you salvaged anything within range of a fleet that could threaten you? Oh that's right, you can't, because the game won't let you. The time is simulated, so you don't have to sit in one spot and wait for ten seconds for a progress bar to fill. Unless there are scripted encounters when attempting to salvage or survey (and those terrible drones don't count), there won't be a risk, because 99% of the time there is never a threat nearby.
The last time I salvaged anything within 10 seconds of an enemy fleet being able to threaten me was a good 70% of the salvaging I've done, particularly post-battle. The game only prevents you from performing salvage if there's an enemy fleet actively chasing you, and you're within their sensor range, and that's only derelicts/debris fields you encounter outside of battles. 10 seconds is very much long enough for the threat level to change, and for larger/more advanced ships, it'd take even longer.

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Suggestions / Re: Ability: Fleet Detachment
« on: May 08, 2017, 05:54:50 AM »
But you can use your own detachment to stall THEIR detachment, don't you get it?
You can use YOUR faster ships are a rearguard, to stall the enemy and prevent them from catching up to your main fleet.
Given the way the game works, the detachments will suck everyone in like a black hole.  The detachments meet, everyone gets sucked in.  In effect, the detachments are making the circles bigger, not letting one side escape as suggested.  The game would need to be changed to support this.
The battle-joining mechanics would not factor in, since the people who would be creating the feature are conscious of it. One way or another, the game would be aware that a detachment is a detachment, and which fleet it originates from, by it technically being part of the same fleet or otherwise. And honestly, I think change is due in the battle-joining mechanic too, but that's for another discussion.

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Suggestions / Re: Ability: Fleet Detachment
« on: May 08, 2017, 05:22:29 AM »
Tactical stakes, not strategic.  Also, for newbies who don't know the game inside out ironman simply isn't practical.
Granted, and I wasn't suggesting that Ironman be enforced in any way. This is still zero reason not to include this mechanic.


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I don't have a visual on how the UI for detachments would work.  The detachment needs to have an independent position to not be a functional no-operation.
Essentially you'd go through the fleet menu, and there'd be another little box on each ship to designate it as part of the detachment. The ability its self would be triggered by mousing over the fleet and pressing the appropriate number, or in the case of a split rear-guard action, just pressing the number for that.
As for position, again, it doesn't need to be a separate fleet to be able to work out the distance between it and the main. It still could be for readability's sake, but mechanically creating a separate fleet would probably be impractical

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And the main problem they're supposed to solve, is already solved in-game with S-burn.
Again, I disagree. S-burn as far as it appears to me is simply to shorten the time travelling from A-B. The whole reason I imagine it forces the fleet to stop before being engaged is to prevent it from being used to outrun or catch up to fleets where you ought to be using E-burn for that purpose, or a detachment as an alternative in this case. Also why I imagine its acceleration is slower and maneuverability reduced.

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I think that adding a time delay on salvaging might make the mechanic more interesting if you are a small fleet in the core worlds, running away from pirates and such, but for mid-late game fleets, there are very few actual threats. Maybe in a super dangerous [REDACTED] system you might think twice about salvaging , but in general, it would just make an relatively uninteresting task take longer, and I don't think thats the way to go.
The point is, even with a late-game fleet you're being subject to the same time delays (With adjustments depending on salvage gantries, skills etc), so it becomes a question of whether it's worth that time to salvage a debris field that might yield 5 supplies and 2 fuel when your fleet consumes triple that in a day, or whether it's worth the time to recover a wrecked-up Lasher when you've a fleet full of powerful capitals. It still delays you from carrying on with whatever your objective happens to be, it still leaves you open to attack if there does happen to be an enemy fleet powerful enough looking for you, and it still gives weight to an otherwise foregone choice.

I do agree with you on planetary surveys. This thread was just going to be about salvaging initially, but then I thought about surveys and might as well throw it in there, after all, ideas are free. I only made those suggestions because right now, the only thing you have to invest is skill points (Which is by no means insignificant) and the time, fuel and supplies to go around these outlying systems, and then it's constant payoff. It's like being able to buy an invincible ship; it cost you the initial investment, it still has passive upkeep and a deployment cost, but you're not risking or sacrificing anything beyond that to reap its benefits.

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