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Starsector 0.95.1a is out! (12/10/21); Blog post: The Pilgrim's Path (07/19/22)

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Messages - FooF

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Returning to the original topic, I was hoping for a tier list. Oh well.
SCC did kind of tier them, but you know, what the hell one more tier list is good for the health.

And since lately I've been doing tier lists of almost everything, I'll try to explain the best I can my thought process behind the tiers. So in this case, I'm ranking mounts based on how much I will prioritize its weapons and am I building the whole loadout around it. For example let's say one ship has 2 of every single mount on it, ridiculous example but I just want to paint the picture. Of course this is inherently skewed since smaller mounts tend to have less impact.

Small ballistics: B
Would be higher if it had better HE options, it's either wet noodles or super slow inaccurate projectile.

Medium ballistics: A+
Like Vanshilar mentioned, another middle od the road HE gun would be nice but that barely impacts the score.

Large ballistics: B
They're not even that bad, it's just the smaller mounts having better options that need less skills and hullmods.

Small energy: D
I find them oversaturated since there are 4 PD options and only one is worth using (unless you min max every single PD bonus in the game). Actual guns are eh or way too niche.

Medium energy: C
Better situation than smalls but still lots of weapons that you won't use in 99% of the time. Heavy Blaster and Ion Pulsers are just two weapons and are basically all I use from this group (most of the time)

Large energy: A-
Solid options in general, but usually need a bit of support from different mounts.

Small missile: A-
Most impactful small mounts but very limited

Medium missile: A+
Highest spam potential in the game, just look how they enable a number of ships to be menacing.

Large missiles: A+
Last longer than mediums but usually need ECCM to be potent. Same score because they're less ridiculous imo but more limiting. Squall basically carries this group right now because of the end game shield tanks.

Generally agree with this.

I think I'd bump Medium Energy to a B- because I don't think Pulse Lasers and Phase Lances are bad. Small Ballistics are almost exclusively Kinetics on anything larger than a Frigate. The only time I use LAGs are on Frigates, though don't sleep on Light Mortars: they're so cheap that you can you saturate a ship (and a target) with them.

I'm with Thaago regarding Large Ballistics: overall they're better than any Medium counterpart. With all the complaints about the HAG, I wonder if it wouldn't benefit from a Heavy Mauler-esque fire rate: burst of 4 (over 1 second) at 240 damage each, 1 second between bursts. Same flux/DPS as current. It'd be slightly more accurate because recoil would decay a little between bursts and each shot would be individually stronger.

Large Energy is among my favorite and each option is good for what it does. I'll agree Small Energy is the weakest mount type right now.

I'm not quite as high on Missiles as some of you, though I admit they're very powerful. Large Missiles, for example, I'd place about on par with Large Energy, not leagues above. Solid "A" but not A+ for me, mostly because I don't value missiles quite as high in my builds. Maybe I'm the weird one.

General Discussion / Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« on: August 04, 2022, 08:48:14 AM »
HBL was buffed just last patch. I believe there was a suggestion thread about it maybe 2 months ago. HBL on the Eagle is a kind of a good stand-by because the Medium Energies are turreted and otherwise not vital to the primary damage. I don’t know if an HBL would buff Eagles disproportionately more that other bulls, though I admit that HBL on Eagles makes more sense than a lot of others.

I know I suggested something like making the HBL capable of shooting up to3 different targets at once (though beams could not converge) and upping the maximum charges to 10 or so. Basically, give it better PD saturation and, in a pinch, hit a single target up to 10 times for a decent burst. I think the ammo also came in clips of 3 every 2 seconds or something. Made it more of a generalist weapon but much better at shooting down missiles/fighters. Don’t forget it ignores Flares as-is.

Suggestions / Re: Flag individual ships for receiving skill effects
« on: August 01, 2022, 01:49:54 PM »
This sounds like min/maxing to me. I like granularity but I don’t know if this adds anything more than a hidden system for less knowledgeable players to lose efficiency in. Phase ships, civilian ships, etc. are all operating under global fleet bonuses. I think these are set up the way they are for a reason. Imagine having a phase fleet and only giving the phase mastery bonus to a Doom flagship. I just don’t think that’s how it was designed to be.

If I’m understanding the suggestion correctly.

General Discussion / Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« on: August 01, 2022, 01:42:40 PM »
I really really wouldn't want to see the Eagle get a fighter bay because that wouldn't synergize at all with the role the Eagle fills in a fleet.

Defining that role has been the exercise of this entire thread. What is the Eagle’s role currently and what should it be? At present, it only seems suited for long-distance pressure, or at least that seems like the safest approach. Its slow speed inhibits an assault role and its weapon placement makes the Medium Energies tough to utilize.

What should it be? If it is supposed to be a generalist, more speed allows for the Energies to diversify and do more of the heavy lifting. A flight deck increases the versatility/flexibility of the hull. I still lean toward more speed over a fighter bay but, on paper, I like the idea of Eagles contributing to fighter critical mass.

In Hiruma Kai’s fleet setting, 5 Eagles contributing 5 fighter squadrons would be a significant departure from the what the Champion brings to the table. At least I would imagine. Testing may prove otherwise. Likewise, Eagles screaming around at base 70-75 speed would likely change outcomes, even if loadouts didn’t budge. I’d prefer to see if assault variant Eagles, with higher speed, confer an advantage over current long-range support variants. My gut tells me that an Eagle with a Heavy Blaster or Phase Lances paired with efficient Kinetics would be superior, if it could engage/disengage better via speed.

General Discussion / Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« on: August 01, 2022, 06:26:37 AM »
Ha, we’ve devolved into statistics vs the eye test. A point of no return. Personally, I think I’ve said all I can say. To summarize:

- Option 1: +10 base speed, add fighter bay, +15 OP

- Option 2: +25 speed

- Option 3: +20 speed, add fighter bay, +15 OP. Keep at 22 DP.

In order of preference: 3>2>>>>1. This thread has taught me that the Eagle needs speed more than anything. I still stand by the fighter bay idea a.) because it gives it something unique and b.) it makes it even more of a jack-of-all-trades.

Basically. The Lion’s Guard are yes-men that lick boots more than lead men. I wouldn’t expect them to be competent captains but more like political schemers. Perhaps some of them still have a shred of dignity but I would imagine most of the Lion’s Guard are propaganda pieces and parade fleets.

Suggestions / Re: Allow to zoom out more depends on sensor range
« on: July 31, 2022, 10:02:01 AM »
This is a really good option. It would also make the game feel claustrophobic when your sensors are low which would contribute to the effect of feeling like you are in a submarine.

That would be interesting. I fear it would be a QoL request all the time though to allow zoom out from new players.

The real issue is that it doesn’t make sense that you can’t see a planet or star until you’re right on it. There are certain stellar phenomena that would be detectable beyond sensor range.

Suggestions / Re: Megastructures.
« on: July 31, 2022, 09:56:30 AM »
Megastructures in the Sector are probably a little fat-fetched but if you were to use a “rogue” Gate that takes you outside the Sector and back into Domain space, I think it’d be cool to see some. That’s why Gates are such a powerful/interesting mechanic: they’re just portals to whatever goofy stuff someone can cook up. Aliens, war zones, backwater colonies, etc. Even one-off trips that don’t really tie-in to anything but are cool scenarios would be awesome. The sky really is the limit.

General Discussion / Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« on: July 30, 2022, 06:37:30 PM »
The firepower disparity between the Champion and Eagle is hilariously large given “standard” builds.   2x HVD + 1 Mauler with Ion Beam and 2 Gravitons vs 2x HVD + HIF or Tachyon (with HEF) + Squall or Hammer Barrage? Even without the Large Missile, I’d rather have the Champion’s main armament. The Champion is even equal on range. (Small Energies are a wash, IMO). Tachyon w/HEF is murder compared to the Eagles’ passive beam pressure.

The Champion is 80% as fast as the Eagle but has like twice the firepower. Shields, armor, flux stats are all roughly equal or better. It’s a superior ship in almost every category for 5 more DP (previously 3!)

Now if the Eagle was built for assault, and could actually close distance and pull back, the disparity closes. A fast Eagle with 2x HMG, Heavy Mortar, 2x Phase Lance and Ion Pulser is a strong ship. The problem is that if you try that now, the Eagle just gets kited. A Faster Eagle can much more reliably dash in and out and/or pursue while staying in range. Speed makes so many more options viable.

General Discussion / Re: Legion is too underwhelming?
« on: July 30, 2022, 02:21:15 PM »
Right. I think where the Legion suffers is lack of OP for hullmods relative to the Onslaught. It has enough capacity to run its guns, as long as you don’t go overboard with the Medium mounts.

I usually avoid bombers on the Legion but Piranhas or Khopesh are budget options. I wish there was a way for them to engage while still under Regroup orders like Daggers, Longbows and Tridents. I tend to keep my fighters on Regroup and use them as extra guns. I don’t think Perditions fire under Regroup either. Basically any dumb fire. I think that would help the standard Legion a lot but would also affect other carriers.

General Discussion / Re: Legion is too underwhelming?
« on: July 29, 2022, 06:59:04 PM »
Legion XIV with a ton of a hull/armor skills and max missiles is one of my favorite ships to pilot. It’s absolutely insane the amount of Hammers it can spit but then I back it up with 2 Daggers left on Regroup so they just keep spitting Atropos at the target. Xyphos and Broadsword round it out with 5x HMG with Elite Point Defense and Vulcans for the rest. Burn in, dump a biblical amount of Kinetics on a target, linked fire Hammers (that I have 120 of) and just eliminate everything short of an Onslaught.

Double Cyclone might technically be better but the reload time is a lot longer too, even with Elite Missile Spec.

General Discussion / Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« on: July 29, 2022, 06:40:53 PM »
Even if you could use Medium Energy Assault weapons at greater range, the flux costs are pretty steep unless you severely downgrade the ballistics. I don’t see a Pulse Laser competing against Heavy AC for the same flux (i.e. the HAC wins hands-down). I’m of the opinion that the Eagle can’t support a single Heavy Blaster very well without SO. If the HB did have greater range, I still don’t know if I’d use it. The real winners would be Phase Lances and Ion Pulsers.

But, extra range for all of these still doesn’t solve the problem of the Eagle being too slow. It would need the built-in hullmod and still need extra speed, IMO.

Joke option: The Golden Eagle variant. Remove all Medium mounts and three Small Energies up front. 1 Large Ballistic in the hard point nose. 2 turreted Large Energies where lateral Mediums were. No speed increases or flux stat changes. Mk. IX + 2 HIL anyone (and completely vulnerable to frigates and strike craft)?

General Discussion / Re: Vigilance is bad
« on: July 29, 2022, 01:49:59 PM »
+1 to built in Expanded Missile Racks.

I don’t think you can do much for the Vigilance without adding a weapon mount. It has the capability of being a decent support craft but as I found in my latest Midline play through, they die too easily mid-game, even when I play them “safe”.

All that said, I don’t think they’re bad but they aren’t very competitive relative to other choices of equal DP. Maybe they need to be priced like a Kite.

General Discussion / Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« on: July 28, 2022, 08:41:31 AM »
While fast Eagle sounds nice, I struggle to see how it wouldn't simply obsolete Falcon. Falcon's shtick has always been "Eagle, but faster, cheaper, and less armed".

Personally I find reducing Eagle's DP to 20 to be lame, and as others have said it doesn't make me want to use the ship any more than before.

Falcon will always be cheaper to deploy. You’re getting 2/3rds of an Eagle for 2/3rds the price that doesn’t slow down your Destroyer fleet. Granted, that’s not a huge niche but I’d dare say the Eagle needs more help/role refinement than the Falcon.

General Discussion / Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« on: July 27, 2022, 06:56:42 PM »
I’ve been a big proponent of adding a flight deck + 15 OP to the Eagle but the thread has me thinking about something sort of fundamental brought up earlier: why does the Eagle need to be slow? Why can’t it straight up be better than the Falcon? I.e. make it like 75 base speed with Maneuvering Jets?

A fast Eagle becomes something quite different. Not just “relatively fast” but actually fast. All of a sudden the Medium Energies aren’t nearly the liability they were before because of the closing speed and the Ballistics don’t all have to be long-range plinkers. It opens the Eagle to be an assault ship that doesn’t have the same staying power as a Champion or firepower of an Eradicator but it would be almost as nimble as an Aurora, just without the missile potential.

With the limitations of the hard points and inability to dump huge damage with flux-free missiles, I don’t see the downside of just making the Eagle a fast generalist. Heck, add the flight deck too and keep it at 22 DP. It might even be OP at that point.

Now, what would the point of the Falcon be? It’s still cheaper to deploy, it still has an extra burn speed and it is ultimately a hair faster. I don’t think a much faster Eagle makes the Falcon obsolete.

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