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31

General Discussion / Re: New skill system is a step backwards

« on: April 07, 2021, 09:44:05 AM »

Mr Noob

Well its just obvious you havent been flying ships where those choices are useful. Which is your choice.

heres a case study.

Doom
Helmsmanship - easy
This next tier, awkward one, meaningful choice here..... Hmmm im not very good so lets go with POINT DEFENSE.
impact mitigation - easy
Shields - KIDDING
NOw doom will probably appreciate both of the tier five skill here, but im gonna go with systems for the mines.

all youve told me is that you dont like to pilot the doom not that there arent meaningful choices.

Mr Speeder, your choice is to have both of the max tier skills?? How is that not a choice? your choice of playstyle is now focused on being a governor....... im pretty confused here.

Mr Ryan,

Hello!

Mr Blade,

I simply disagree for reasons shared and im too lazy to go into more detail BUT i will copy paste this again.

15 skill levels and five tiers, of debatably increasing potency.
thats three entire trees with one choice at each tier.
thats one tree with no choices made (going round twice, ill come back to this) and one tree with choices at each tier.
A mash of whetever skills.
and a mash of whatever of the above.

And say: you can hit the highest tier skills in any tree in only 5 levels.

sheesh, guys.

32

General Discussion / Re: New skill system is a step backwards

« on: April 07, 2021, 09:17:38 AM »

Phase ships are powerful and the only skill tht comes to mind that they directly dont appreciate is shields. They get enough love.

YOu seem to forget that you can give your ships officers? You having stuff that buffs the whole fleet AND then your officers on top would get way OP too fast. We get enough in my opinion.

Agree, with your commetns regarding the meta, but thats got little to do with binary choices and more to do with tweaking the skills themselves as and when a playstyle is identified as OP.

I honestly believe the folly to which you mention is just playing the game. Every fleet is not going to be ideal against every fleet. Over specialise, you breed in weakness, and conversely, a jack of all trades is a master of none. The successful, overpowered, meta that needs rebalance is the jack that never needs refining.

Heres the issue, i believe you are asking for too much. Incidentally, i dont see why you cant have good shields and good phase ships as ALL the skills mentioned targetting those are exclusively for the ship you or that officer is piloting, or on non mutually exclusive tiers. You can already do what you are suggesting unless i misunderstand?

Another thing, you say flexible, and this is another choice! You can choose to be honed to a razors edge at one task, like tanking, which means you arent going to be good at phase ships. THen with the introduction of the elite skills, the choice here is to have a cheap flexible skill set that only costs one SP to respec. or a ninja elite spec that costs 5 SPs to respec. ITs these trade offs. Its a good thing.

Opolgise in advance for lack of proof read.

33

General Discussion / Re: New skill system is a step backwards

« on: April 07, 2021, 08:48:24 AM »

Every skill tier is a choice?

Having to pick skills you dont want to get those you do? To start, thats an almost fundamental aspect of progression and applies near universally to RPGS that have more mechanics than you have fingers.

Just to clarify, i believe there is huge difference between 'choices' and choices. Hopefully the italics will portray my intent there, else its gonna get wordy. - seems like i did, below.

For the sake of this discussion, and i apologise if this has already been mentioned but i didnt read large swathes of the somewhat redundant comments, do you have examples? Of skills you dont want?


Mr noob.
Im not here to argue with everyone as I quite simply havent read everything. Even if i did, im not really compos mentis enough to hold it all in my head because reasons.

The overarching message i have is: Choice is good. I can only say we disagree on what 'meaningful' choices are. Share your definition?

ALSO, the choices are at their most basic

15 skill levels and five tiers, of debatably increasing potency.
thats three entire trees with one choice at each tier.
thats one tree with no choices made (going round twice, ill come back to this) and one tree with choices at each tier.
A mash of whetever skills.
and a mash of whatever of the above.

Theres also archetypes and sub archetypes you can base your choices around, which is also a choice!. E.g. Shortrange, long range, carrier etc etc. Its unlikely youre gonna be able to get all applicable skills to your archetype unless you sacrifice leadership or industry. Choice!

Also, if you want to go round twice on a tree to get multiple upper tier skills but theres skills you dont want on the way? that is ALSO a meaningful choice. Is that skill worth the 'dead' point?

Now compare this to previous incarnations. All those before were WHEN should i get 10% more OP fleet wide, shield expert and so on. Not IF. Just wanna say, holy crap i miss the, what was it? 30% more OP fleet wide? MENTAL. and awesome. but silly.

Im not saying the skills cant be tweaked, theres some skills in questionable locations. But really, this a great system. Power creep is a thing and the s-mods, im pretty sure, counter a LARGE chunk of any power depreciation you see, imagined or real. Its just portrayed differently and else where.

ill leave this mind vomit here. I suppose theses are just things i want people to consider before finding their pitchforks. A counterpoint is healthy? maybe?

Man... im taking so long to write this in my mind haze you people keep replying.

Mr Blade.
Seems nice quick response.
Well one of your choices is 'do i want to be a ****hot ninja pilot or do i want to be captain mother of the seven samurai' you cant be effective at both. Meaningful choice here. I cant speak as such for Alex, of course, But i dont think he wants 'Captain mother, the ninja pilot' to be the only meta worth considering.

This game shares quite a few aspects with battlebrothers.

With reference to binary choices, hah, well, i can teasingly say all choices are binary. Its either this, or not this. I dont really have an opinion on that, having more options per level would just be different i wouldnt say it it would give more overall choice as something you would have had to sacrifice at some other point, now never has to be. Which is less choice. Have to witness.

I disagree with you regarding respec. Its so cheap and once youve got your master fleet and millions rolling in you can drop all of industry. Which is more choice.

34

General Discussion / Re: Beam weapons need a buff

« on: April 07, 2021, 07:44:51 AM »

Just to chuck in my 'too sense'. Beams are fine for the reasons already mentioned. They are pressure weapons.

35

General Discussion / Re: Fuel Issue

« on: April 07, 2021, 07:42:37 AM »

You can keep honking till juicy pirates appear.

36

General Discussion / Re: The game became too hard

« on: April 07, 2021, 07:37:37 AM »

I get what Locklave posted.  Just because I can win a fight or struggle with it does not necessarily mean it is fun.  Last release, even though I could kill fleets with too many phase ships, fighting them was annoying and I avoided them in favor of more straightforward fights (that my AI can do well in without micromanagement).

Worst were enemy Timid officers in one of the 0.7.x releases.  Easy strategy to win?  Camp on an objective with max skilled Onslaught and wait until Timids run out of PPT and CR, then kill them.  (Everyone else just died to Onslaught.)  Fights took close to an hour.  (And fleet cap was 25 ships back then... for the player only.)

I understood the guy, i just dont understand the guy. Particularly his ridiculous inclusion of reductio.

Conversely, just because i ROFLstomp a fleet does not mean it was fun. Well it means it ISNT fun in 'Dex's Big Book of Fun' toilet edition.

I can only infer we are speaking from opposite sides of a river called FUN. We both want to cross it, but i want to build a raft and others want to phone in a helicopter.
love silly analogies.

37

General Discussion / Re: New skill system is a step backwards

« on: April 07, 2021, 07:29:14 AM »

I disagree, quite simply. With the OP and many here.
The aim was to give the player meaningful choices during character progression. Mission accomplished. Having to sacrifice some really fancy skills provides different approaches to the game in different play throughs. Even within current games with the respec feature.

Most comments seem to be parroting something similar to 'i dont want to make this choice' or 'im not as powerful as i want/used to be'. Im thinking of ways to phrase this gently but its basically 'So?'. Adapt! A lack of challenge is boring. Always, always.

People REALLY only don't like the skill as its different from what they are used to. Its not as all powerful and there are more sacrifices to be made for the actual skills players are prioritising. Theres more choices.

If anything, we now have more playstyles available as frigates are now far more viable in the late game and carriers aren't the god tier they used to be. Thank god.

Id argue if this was a first implementation of skills the opinions would be less.... opinionated. Having a 'preferable' point of reference gives a 'good old days' perspective pertaining to ones own prior, narrow, experience. The previous skills sucked, guys, there was like two choices and that was industry or combat.

Very presumptuous of me to say so, probably.

Edit: Just wanted to say, derelict contingent, not a fan, feels weird.

38

Announcements / Re: Starsector 0.95a (Released) Patch Notes

« on: April 06, 2021, 02:40:36 PM »

I dont know if this is a bug or intended, but once upon a time, i ventured into the system with the

Spoiler

phase fleet

[close]

. I spotted it before it could attach onto me and i ran off. Successfully. HOURS later after some exploring, im 'legitimately' delivering some drugs to a hegemony planet and the

Spoiler

phase fleet

[close]

successfully pops out of no-where, within a core system, and latches onto me. I story point escape and believe its now following me. Evidently not, as when i return to its home system many cycles later. Its gone.

Does using the story point cause it disappear? i had never used one up to this point.

39

Suggestions / Re: Commission Rework

« on: April 06, 2021, 02:12:55 PM »

I started reading and i was like 'yeah! obligatory missions' and its in there. i spend one story point here. (0%xp)

40

General Discussion / Re: The game became too hard

« on: April 06, 2021, 01:40:34 PM »

That is oversimplified. There is a fine line where elements like this can become unfun.

Can we all agree getting kicked in the balls makes it a struggle to stand? I'm not interested in that journey or process. Just saying, minutia matters.

Um. Kinda interesting logical leap there, fella. Graphic, really. But ok....Is that reductio ad absurdum? well honestly im struggling to get the analogy, but lets leave that alllll the way over there, regardless.

So, like whats the deal? The end end end game content with a built-in titanium alloy is unfun hard? My argument is that this argument is unfair.

41

General Discussion / Re: Oh dear..

« on: April 06, 2021, 01:32:53 PM »

Oooohhhh. Do we have a similar breakdown of the strenghts of the other stations? I generally just choose them chronologically in order with no real understanding.

42

General Discussion / Re: Game too easy with new skills and SP

« on: April 06, 2021, 01:27:32 PM »

The retreating mechanics (sans Story points) are already wonderfully brutal and un sympathetic. I dont recall a mechanic as you are describing ever being integrated but im a fallible yet turing test passible gamma so who knows. Not I.

Honestly, the ONLY reason i went ironman on my first run of 95 was the knowledge that i could pay for 100%, with rebate, successful cowardice. I always hold shift (we ALL always hold shift, right?) and the amount of time i pause just to be caught despite an attemped emergency burn is TOO DAMN HIGH. As it is, i never fought The Phase Fleet, as i NOPED out of there pretty pronto as soon as i saw it. Did a bit of exploring, returned to the core worlds hours later and it just popped out of nowhere as i was delivering drugs somewhere. Story pointed that, obviously, and NOPED off again. Honestly was surprised that had followed me for so long, but i hadnt used the story point when i saw it the first time so now its following me everywhere. The next few play hours had an interesting, suspenseful atmosphere, but it turns out it wasnt following me, and when i finally show up at its system again with a god fleet they were gone and i found a probe that sent me on my way. I actually whetted my god fleet on omega before i was gonna try and stab some shadows. Is this a bug, incidentally?

It wasnt all rainbows and unicorns though. I lost a whole fleet with a few smods in it to my first attempt at omega. YOu kinda need to use a sizeable stick on the first whack to just see how hard you need to whack something though, as they say. But i didnt lose anything i was emotionally invested in. I did lose my dear aurora FEERSUM ENDJINN on a misjudged whimsy on some shoe chuckers. Was losing, tried a fighting retreat as had destroyed enough FP, but there was a stupid lucky shot on engines and that was it. 3 story points. boom. And that was because i had spaced out dodging some hyperstorms. holding shift. of course.

But yeah, i seriously think 1SP to save your entire fleet is a bit cheap.

43

General Discussion / Re: Game too easy with new skills and SP

« on: April 06, 2021, 11:39:16 AM »

IM using my initiative and gonna say you didnt mean to quote yourself there, ryan and are talking to me.

I love the fact you can SOD OFF rapido fro the low low cost of one story point. It is TOO powerful. Maybe cost 2 story points, is what im saying.

44

General Discussion / Re: Game too easy with new skills and SP

« on: April 06, 2021, 11:21:40 AM »

I disagree there ryan, story points are abundant and plentiful and never ending.

Im saying its over powered as you are literally saving your entire fleet! the entire fleet! for the cost of one story point. Outright bargain.

I guess we won't ever agree on that then, what's the alternative to loosing a hard earned fleet due to a freak accident or oversight on the players part?

If not story points to avoid that then how else? Not giving the player an option or way out shouldn't be an option either.
I liked the mechanic of 'fight your way out' by destroying enemy ships to enable a disengage, but the amount of ships you need to destroy is a little excessive.

Im confused? why you have to lose the fleet?

OKAY. No i disagree with how rare story points are

45

General Discussion / Re: Game too easy with new skills and SP

« on: April 06, 2021, 11:01:23 AM »

Part of the fun for you. I hate losing ships so if I lose some rare ship or have a chance to get my entire fleet wiped out literally out of nowhere I reload instantly. And savescumming feels bad. But now I don't need to, if I find myself in such situations I can use in-game tool to avoid encounter for an in-game price. And it's awesome. Maybe SP needs more balancing, but I find it the best feature of 0.95a

Oh no, its not about losing the ships thats enjoyable, its knowing that I COULD have but DIDNT. YOu need this contrast for success, (mumbles philosophically for a bit about why failure is important, zero sum games, and instant ramen).

I have a cold and am self medicating.