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31

General Discussion / Re: 0.7 feedback

« on: December 04, 2015, 10:44:57 AM »

The time limit doesnt hurt the AI more, as it was not a problem with the game before. And yes you can abuse current system. I dont like abusing things, i like to play the way I played the game, and not be pushed with time limits. The problem with CR has nothing to do with optimal, it has to do with removing my play style how i liked to play the game, and forcing you to play one way. Its a very limited system. You like to not play optimal, but to min/max and in process abuse the system, and nothing wrong with that. But the thing that is wrong because of people breaking the game, devs limit the game it self and in process destroy the play style of other that didn't abused the min/max exploit.

Normally that supply system, didnt had the time limt, that was the whole point of the problem with CR in battles. And CR doesnt add incentive to end battles within a certain time limit. Time limit in battles are separated as most ships didnt had a time limit except frigates , when it was implemented. You can have CR and unlimited battles. Its not one system, but two systems, but later dev *** up even more implementing time limits for all ships, not only frigates. Objectively  speaking you should not have incentive to end battles within a certain time limit, because it's a bad design, and there is nothing good in it. That is the core problem, you dont want to have time limits and to push people to finish the battle in that time limit.  You didnt offer any example of anything good that CR brings that supply could not bring to the table. And the limited time battles is actually a negative thing.  CR on global map only slows the game play without anything bringing to the table, on battle map it makes playing how people want limited. Do you want to have time limits in battles? If yes, no problem, i dont, i want to have freedom to play and take my time how much I want.

I've given multiple examples of how the CR system hurts the AI more than the player, you seem to just be ignoring them and saying "No it doesn't". You're complaining that you can't abuse the AI because of the CR system, then say that you don't want to abuse the AI and it's just your "playstyle". You've said that "Objectively  speaking you should not have incentive to end battles within a certain time limit, because it's a bad design, and there is nothing good in it." You're not backing your claims of objectivity up with reasons or evidence, you're just saying it shouldn't exist because it's bad and it's double bad and you don't like it.

I think you just need to git gud at videogaem.

Dude, if you want to talk about something, be sure to read things I said and my points. No, i dont complain about abusing, i dont care about abusing the AI. I complain about the time limit, and why its implemented, and its implemented because people abused the game. Time limit is bad, because you can not play the game how you want, you need to rush it, i posted why its bad, i also posted why CR is bad. Accept those facts or dont, i dont care, but please, if you want to talk about something in future be sure you read what people post so you dont waste time of going no where with your "objective" posts that how it seems miss the whole point/dont understand it.

32

Announcements / Re: Starsector 0.7.1a (In Development) Patch Notes

« on: December 04, 2015, 10:36:06 AM »

It's not going to be today, but assuming all goes well with the last bits of playtesting - very soon!


Hmm, you know - if you edit settings.json and change:
"maxMarketProcurementConcurrent":20;
To 0 instead, that *may* help the stuttering issue. It'll also stop new procurement missions from being generated, though.

Holy crap, i thought that the game lags because of my *** comp (and that the game got a lot higher needs with the new release), but this fixed it, no more lag every 3 sec or so in global map.

I assumed it to be a placeholder for future, more interesting conversation options.

Still it will not change the fact that conversation will be fixed, and once you see them all (if you want to read it in first place, as I always skip it)you will want just to jump and see the stats, so really no need for that additional one click

33

General Discussion / Re: 0.7 feedback

« on: December 04, 2015, 07:23:46 AM »

The point that I made is that your post where it said that CR offer more abuse was not correct, as the old system offered more freedom, and with that  you could abuse  the bad AI a lot more. The problem is, why it doesnt work anymore, and its not because of better AI, but because of arbitrary limits of implementing simply a bad mechanic with timed battles. And it is true from small frigates to cruiser and destroyers. The system is just bad, and very cheap way of trying to change something.

If you approach a game in a min/max style, then youl never have fun with any game, as you will always find and abuse the system, as you said with new type of abusing that is there with CR. I dont think the game should implement limitation because people will abuse the system, as the game will become worse with a lot more limitation and more bad mechanics.

Now CR in it self in its current implementation does make the game worse. I have two separate problems with the game, time limited battles, that I hate, and CR that doesnt add anything to the game that the old supplies could not do. But I am willing to wait and see with industry and similar will CR have any good impact on the game. At the moment the only thing it does is slow down the game, so you need to wait after battle to get your CR to normal level, and with the new sensor and having a lot harder time finding fleets to fight it make the game a lot more tedious and boring than it was. But again, will wait for other part of the game like industry, outposts and similar, where it may not be that huge of a problem, as you would actually have things to do and not just wait around for your CR to go up.

You're less free to spend an entire hour killing a cruiser with a frigate, sure. But the AI is similarly chained. It cannot take as much time as it likes to kill your cruisers with its frigate. And given that an AI will always, always have more patience than a human, I think that adding a hard time limit hurts the infinitely patient AI more than it hurts a human. How would you feel if you couldn't kill a single AI frigate with a cruiser, and it took an hour for the AI to kill you? I would find that extremely frustrating. The AI doesn't care either way, whether it's taking an hour to kill you or if you take an hour to kill it. And you can abuse that infinite patience by having more CR and running around until the AI is malfunctioning while you aren't. That also feels more like a realistic strategy, taking advantage of your well-maintained ship and experienced crew, which I find helps my immersion.

I have fun with a game when playing optimally is fun. For example, in most FPS games, it's optimal to aim for the head. Aiming for the head is a skill challenge that rewards precision with higher damage, but usually people find demonstrating skill fun in and of itself regardless of being rewarded by a system. In the case of FPS games, playing optimally means demonstrating skill, which is fun in and of itself, but becomes more fun for being the best way to play. The system rewards having fun.

In the case of CR, playing optimally is 1) ending battles before you run out of peak performance time, 2) with the fewest supply worth of ships possible. It's a balancing act; you have to size up the enemy forces, consider your fleet, and commit the number of ships you think will be able to defeat the enemy most efficiently. That balancing act means there's never going to be a single optimal answer for every single engagement; even though you can probably kill everything in the game with an über-Paragon, you'll be wasting supplies deploying that über-Paragon vs a Luddic Path patrol, for example. Although, most players are probably going to err on the side of committing more ships than strictly necessary, as that means you're just going to spend more supplies after the battle instead of potentially losing valuable ships. I find having to balance a strategic objective (use fewer supplies) against a tactical objective (kill the enemy) an interesting puzzle that's fun to solve; finding the solution to puzzles is fun, the system rewards finding the solution, the system rewards having fun.

"CR that doesnt add anything to the game that the old supplies could not do." The old supply system did not encourage ending battles within a certain time limit. CR adds an incentive to end battles within a certain time limit. You are objectively wrong. You just don't like what CR adds. "At the moment the only thing it does is slow down the game" Well, I've offered multiple examples of things CR does other than slow down the game, but here's another. It incentivizes you to have backup ships in your fleet, so if your first set of ships is running low on CR, you can use the second set. I do that myself; I've got a Paragon that I usually use, but I also have a pair of Medusas and a pair of Wolves as backup.

The time limit doesnt hurt the AI more, as it was not a problem with the game before. And yes you can abuse current system. I dont like abusing things, i like to play the way I played the game, and not be pushed with time limits. The problem with CR has nothing to do with optimal, it has to do with removing my play style how i liked to play the game, and forcing you to play one way. Its a very limited system. You like to not play optimal, but to min/max and in process abuse the system, and nothing wrong with that. But the thing that is wrong because of people breaking the game, devs limit the game it self and in process destroy the play style of other that didn't abused the min/max exploit.

Normally that supply system, didnt had the time limt, that was the whole point of the problem with CR in battles. And CR doesnt add incentive to end battles within a certain time limit. Time limit in battles are separated as most ships didnt had a time limit except frigates , when it was implemented. You can have CR and unlimited battles. Its not one system, but two systems, but later dev *** up even more implementing time limits for all ships, not only frigates. Objectively  speaking you should not have incentive to end battles within a certain time limit, because it's a bad design, and there is nothing good in it. That is the core problem, you dont want to have time limits and to push people to finish the battle in that time limit.  You didnt offer any example of anything good that CR brings that supply could not bring to the table. And the limited time battles is actually a negative thing.  CR on global map only slows the game play without anything bringing to the table, on battle map it makes playing how people want limited. Do you want to have time limits in battles? If yes, no problem, i dont, i want to have freedom to play and take my time how much I want.

34

General Discussion / Re: 0.7 feedback

« on: December 04, 2015, 05:40:03 AM »

The time limit was specifically implemented so people not abuse the bad AI of ships, or better said kill all fleets with one frigate ship in 40min or so. So CR doesnt let you abuse the AI more, but less, that is its main reason its in the game in the first place.

Now to your other point, it doesnt matter does the AI also have same rules, the system falls apart if you want to play with one ship against other fleets. You are here trying to explain that players starts with better odds over the CPU, that is also not the problem. The core problem is the time limit of the battles it self. It works horrible if you want to play alone in a fleet, and it also plays horrible in any bigger fight that will last longer. And it also is a horbille addition on psychological scale, where your battles are timed and you know you cant take your time how much you want.

If people want to abuse the bad AI and play one battle kitting them for 40 min, let them do it, this is not a mmo, but a single player game. The worst thing you can do is implement a bad mechanics to try and fix something that doesnt need fixing and at the same time make other parts of the game worse.

That specific form of AI abuse is gone, but now there's different kinds of AI abuse in its place. That's just the nature of predictable computer systems.

I all have to say to "the system falls apart if you want to play with one ship against other fleets" is that it doesn't. I'm running around with an Über-Paragon blenderizing entire bounty fleets solo, and I've never felt limited by CR. I consistently have more than half of my peak performance time left at the end of every fight. I don't feel any sort of psychological pressure from the time limit at all, I've never hit it, why would I feel pressure?

I strongly disagree with the idea that tedious-yet-optimal strategies should be left in the game. For players who approach games as optimization puzzles, such as myself, the existence of such a strategy ruins the fun of the game. If the optimal way to play the game is boring, if the rules encourage tedium, the game does not produce fun. It is possible to have fun in spite of the rules encouraging you to not have fun, but then if you can do that, you could probably have fun playing with a cardboard box. I can't. A good article about this is Water Finds a Crack (http://www.designer-notes.com/?p=369), written by one of the Civilization designers.

I also disagree that CR is a bad mechanic that makes the game worse. It makes the game better in several ways, by allowing for various mechanics that interact with CR. Environmental hazards like star coronas and hyperspace storms, abilities with significant trade-offs, like emergency burn, and bonuses to combat for having extremely high CR and maluses for entering a fight with low CR. CR makes the game more interesting, and Starsector would be worse for its loss.

The point that I made is that your post where it said that CR offer more abuse was not correct, as the old system offered more freedom, and with that  you could abuse  the bad AI a lot more. The problem is, why it doesnt work anymore, and its not because of better AI, but because of arbitrary limits of implementing simply a bad mechanic with timed battles. And it is true from small frigates to cruiser and destroyers. The system is just bad, and very cheap way of trying to change something.

If you approach a game in a min/max style, then youl never have fun with any game, as you will always find and abuse the system, as you said with new type of abusing that is there with CR. I dont think the game should implement limitation because people will abuse the system, as the game will become worse with a lot more limitation and more bad mechanics.

Now CR in it self in its current implementation does make the game worse. I have two separate problems with the game, time limited battles, that I hate, and CR that doesnt add anything to the game that the old supplies could not do. But I am willing to wait and see with industry and similar will CR have any good impact on the game. At the moment the only thing it does is slow down the game, so you need to wait after battle to get your CR to normal level, and with the new sensor and having a lot harder time finding fleets to fight it make the game a lot more tedious and boring than it was. But again, will wait for other part of the game like industry, outposts and similar, where it may not be that huge of a problem, as you would actually have things to do and not just wait around for your CR to go up.

35

General Discussion / Re: 0.7 feedback

« on: December 03, 2015, 12:16:46 PM »

If people want to abuse the bad AI and play one battle kitting them for 40 min, let them do it, this is not a mmo, but a single player game.

Strongly disagree on this point.  Basically, the game shouldn't encourage that sort of thing - and with supply costs for deploying ships, there's a strong incentive to deploy only what you actually need, and before CR timers, "what you actually need" was always "One Hyperion."

It actually does not encourage that type of play style, as the game difficulty and balance is not made around cheesing a fleet.  Its just that people that want to min/max things will play that way, or that actually have fun playing that way.  But if you want to improve it , implement better AI, not some bad game mechanic with time limits in battle. Less mindset to balance the game as a MMO, where most people min/max to compete with each other, and more balance the game around different play styles.

36

General Discussion / Re: 0.7 feedback

« on: December 03, 2015, 11:04:46 AM »

This is probably the worst addition this game had. The thing that worries me is the way developer thinks in implementing features that limit the game because of bad AI and people abusing that AI. CR and time limit in battles are probably the biggest two missteps in developing this game. While CR may work out to be good in future when more systems are in the game, time limit on battles is a horrible limitation, and I don't see it changing

Both you and the AI are limited by peak performance time and CR. The AI moreso than you most of the time, seeing as pirates and Luddic path raiders have terrible CR to start with, and all AI fleets really like using emergency burn. You should have about 20% to 50% more CR than they do depending on your crew level, combat aptitude skills, and whether they've used emergency burn lately. The CR timer almost always favours the player. The only time it doesn't favour the player is when the AI can't send all of its ships into the battlespace at the same time due to deployment point limitations and you start facing fresh ships halfway through the battle, i.e. when you're fighting multiple huge fleets at once and/or lategame bounty fleets, or if the AI just has bigger ships than you do and you end up trying to plink a cruiser to death with a frigate.

If anything, CR lets you abuse the AI more. Assuming you both have the same size ships, you've got significantly more CR because you're the player, and your ships are faster, you can just run around the battlespace until they start malfunctioning then clean up. It's expensive supply-wise, but it's very effective.

The time limit was specifically implemented so people not abuse the bad AI of ships, or better said kill all fleets with one frigate ship in 40min or so. So CR doesnt let you abuse the AI more, but less, that is its main reason its in the game in the first place.

Now to your other point, it doesnt matter does the AI also have same rules, the system falls apart if you want to play with one ship against other fleets. You are here trying to explain that players starts with better odds over the CPU, that is also not the problem. The core problem is the time limit of the battles it self. It works horrible if you want to play alone in a fleet, and it also plays horrible in any bigger fight that will last longer. And it also is a horbille addition on psychological scale, where your battles are timed and you know you cant take your time how much you want.

If people want to abuse the bad AI and play one battle kitting them for 40 min, let them do it, this is not a mmo, but a single player game. The worst thing you can do is implement a bad mechanics to try and fix something that doesnt need fixing and at the same time make other parts of the game worse.

37

General Discussion / Re: Is it possible to turn off the UI white noise visual effects?

« on: December 03, 2015, 07:46:33 AM »

This really needs to be in options if this will stay in the game. Two years ago people complained about this problem, and I still see it popping out here and there in different posts.

38

General Discussion / Re: 0.7 feedback

« on: December 03, 2015, 07:42:18 AM »

Why is there a timer for battle-time on cruisers now?  wasn't the timer only on smaller ships before (frigates and such)?  I do not like this.  I was willing to live with the addition of CR in general and having a reduction after each engagement (the CR mechanic bothers me a bit, but I could understand why it was added even though I feel there should be another way to do it through actual battle damage instead of random malfunctions. . it still feels wrong somehow to just start having random malfunctions...).

Ships do not just stop working over these short periods of time.  If they take damage, or they go long enough the men get tired sure, but getting tired enough to have errors and problems in under 3 minutes?  .... that is too short.  It should be hours, not minutes before sleep deprivation and such kick in.

But I do not agree at all with this timer running during battle now for cruisers and above during individual battles.  I should be able to spend as long as I want on the battle map in a cruiser or above - not be limited by an arbitrary timer.

This is probably the worst addition this game had. The thing that worries me is the way developer thinks in implementing features that limit the game because of bad AI and people abusing that AI. CR and time limit in battles are probably the biggest two missteps in developing this game. While CR may work out to be good in future when more systems are in the game, time limit on battles is a horrible limitation, and I don't see it changing

39

General Discussion / Re: Recommend similar games?

« on: November 25, 2015, 11:23:40 AM »

1. Wayward Terran Frontier is highly recommended, because you actually control your character in manner of top-down shooter in boarding operations, station exploration and etc.

This one looks very good to me, thanks

40

General Discussion / Re: First it was supply consumption, then it was combat readiness, now its sensors.

« on: November 24, 2015, 05:07:35 AM »

Funny how CR got so much hate back then, but now it's the mechanic that ties things together, and hardly anyone seems to take issue with it.

I am not so sure about it. It is better balanced, but generally it doesn't tie  anything together in the game, and makes the game more slow and tedious with need to wait and refill a lot more after every fight.

Maybe in future it will tie together, but how slow the game is moving, i don think it will be any time soon.

41

Modding / Re: How to disable fleet limit?

« on: November 23, 2015, 05:53:26 AM »

Thank you very much. Will test it later

42

Modding / How to disable fleet limit?

« on: November 23, 2015, 05:16:10 AM »

Never modded anything, but would be interested if someone would tell me how to remove the fleet limit of 25 ships (if its at all possible), and would that break the current saves that i have?

43

General Discussion / Re: Don't like how enemy fleets are not limited to 25 units

« on: November 23, 2015, 04:43:14 AM »

Why was a hard limit of 25 implemented? I suggest devs to think of reimplementing the fleet point system. It will fix a lot of problems with this, where one fighter wing is same as one capital ship, and it can even have a soft limit that when you go over it you start to lose CR as it was the case before. Easy to understand for players, and also good for balancing different ships out in the fleet.

Really dont like this change and dont understand why it was change in the first place.

But in the mean time, is it possible to disable the fleet limit at the moment and how? And would that brake the saves?

44

General Discussion / Re: The pirates are so "low profile" now

« on: November 23, 2015, 04:39:22 AM »

Yea, finding pirates or generally fleets to attack on beginning is a lot harder and more time consuming than before. As I suggested in other thread, they should be implement that first system be visible to you (have a special object that gives vision around it) so you can hunt the small pirates and progress without to much running around without any result.

45

Suggestions / Re: fighter effectiveness in .7

« on: November 23, 2015, 04:35:56 AM »

Fighters with every update are getting worse and worse, and less viable. With implementing of officers and limiting the fleet to a hard cap of 25 (where 1 fighter wing is same as one capital), pure fighter fleets are not viable anymore as it was the case before. You can now use them only in mixed fleets, witch is bad as it removes one type of play style that I really like. The old fleet points mechanic would fix this.