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Messages - DaShiv

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1
General Discussion / Re: Is Thumper good now?
« on: June 25, 2022, 03:12:59 AM »
I could see it working on an alpha strike setup for a phase ship. Outfitting them with something like AM blasters, Heavy Blasters or Phase Lances and given that you will naturally run up your flux from phasing anyways, you could pop out and strike someone for alot of damage. But yeah with how wildly your flux goes in any given fight and losing the flux war is not ideal, its not something thats applicable everywhere.

I find that purposely running up hard flux for the purposes of scaling up EWM to dump a lot of extra-damage alpha isn't a very practical strategy due to weapon flux spikes. For example, AMB and Phase Lance both cost 1.5k flux per shot, which really limits how much alpha you can dump at high hard flux. And even if you've successfully unloaded all your high flux weapons, your total flux is now so high that you're stuck at close range while being completely unable to use shields or escape with phase  - and high tech ships are not great at armor tanking to survive these circumstances.

For the EWM/alpha dump strategy, there's really only one ship that has the combination of high mobility to both close in and escape, large number/size of energy mounts, deep flux pool to power alpha strikes, and high armor for survival at max flux - and that's the Radiant, which as a capital tends to fight at longer range than is optimal for EWM (and can't use SO). In general, it's probably best to simply use EWM without purposely accumulating hard flux and accept the likelihood that EWM won't average out to very much +damage% over the course of an entire battle.

2
General Discussion / Re: Is Thumper good now?
« on: June 23, 2022, 03:06:34 PM »
Polarized Armor is a permanent -25% EMP with Shield Shunt
Isn't it equal to RFC at 50 percent?

From the skill: "Ships without a shield or a phase cloak are treated as always having 50% hard flux" and the bonus is -50% EMP damage at max hard flux, so for Shield Shunt builds it's a permanent -25% EMP damage (and +25% armor damage reduction). In practical terms, Polarized Armor is somewhat overrated since you're never going to receive the max bonus from the scaling portion. Further, the AI doesn't utilize active venting nearly as effectively as players do (and the bonus is useless with SO), which makes the skill a lot more niche than many players assume.

It's a lot like EWM where the +30% bonus looks amazing on paper, but in practice the average damage bonus is going to be far smaller across the entire battle due to hard flux (and range) scaling.

Not much to say, but worth the read.

Thanks!

3
General Discussion / Re: Is Thumper good now?
« on: June 21, 2022, 11:56:17 PM »
Did you give it the appropriate personality? It's pretty easy to fix it so it doesn't struggle against the falcon by taking off emags and trading a railgun for a LAG so you can afford resistant flux conduits

Actually I did one better - I issued the Full Assault command at the start of combat just to make sure that a Shield Shunt build would have the maximum aggression possible.

The actual reason your build struggled against Falcons is speed: during every trial involving the SIM Falcon, whenever the Falcon was pressured, it was fast enough to fall back behind another enemy to cause the autopilot AI to switch to the closer enemy, and thus the SIM Falcon was never successfully destroyed in any of the 10 trials. This is a significant issue with using SO on larger-than-frigate ships: the AI is very easily outsmarted and outmaneuvered in a fleet context against multiple enemies when it has neither range nor overwhelming speed.

For example, I don't agree that my SO build is specialized for weak ships, even though it does struggle against faster ships.

Both the ACG and Thumper are punch-down weapons due to their low hit strength. To illustrate, I ran your Eradicator (P) build 1vs1 against SIM Conquest, with 0 of 5 successes (average 71.6% hull damage to Conquest, highest 92.2% so it's quite possible to win with random luck). Even the Conquest's 1200 base armor with no skills was enough to slow down ACG/Thumper damage and prevent the Conquest from being overwhelmed. The Thumper fared especially poorly: in every instance it dealt well less than half the hull damage of the ACG despite the Thumper's huge burst frag DPS, due to the Conquest's residual armor.

Now the ACG's raw DPS is so high that it's feasible to simply spam enough ACGs using DP-efficient ships to overwhelm heavily armored targets - the Brawler (LP) is particularly good at this strategy. However, the Eradicator (especially the P variant) isn't really a good ship for this, and on its own the ACG isn't very efficient against heavy armor compared to how easily it annihilates lighter targets.

In contrast, the AI autopilot had no problems soloing the SIM Conquest using the HVD Breach build, because the Breach's irreducible scripted armor damage easily strips capital-grade armor, and HVD has high enough hit strength to punch through capital-grade residual armor and effectively chew through hull. This is an example of a build that isn't just punching down on weak targets.

It's pretty easy to fix it so it doesn't struggle against the falcon by taking off emags and trading a railgun for a LAG so you can afford resistant flux conduits, I just didn't bother because the example we were working with didn't have much EMP damage.
A bit off topic but shield shunt also works if you have an Officer with Elite Polarized Armor & Resistant Flux Conduits Hullmod. High tech EMP weapons wont be giving you any trouble with that combo, but its really only something I would consider on a much more maneuverable/high armor ship as you are still susceptible to a lot of other damage sources.

Unfortunately, Polarized Armor and RFC aren't panaceas for Shield Shunt against EMP damage. Polarized Armor is a permanent -25% EMP with Shield Shunt, so stacked (multiplicatively) with RFC that's -62.5%. However, if you're factoring in skills, Elite Target Analysis is +100% on its own. (We'll ignore other bonuses like CR bonus, sizes bonuses from Wolfpack/Target Analysis, and even systems like HEF.) A small weapon mount has 250 hp while a single shot from Ion Cannon does 400 base damage (and Ion Beam has 400 base EMP DPS as well), so 400*2*0.375 = 300 damage received, resulting in small weapons still being disabled by a single shot. This doesn't even factor in: multiple weapons, bursts from larger weapons like Ion Pulser or Tachyon Lance, EMP arcs, or simply being fired on repeatedly for longer than 1s.

There are a ton of other factors that go into this, such as hit location, weapon size, EMP arc targeting, and so on. However, it's pretty clear that while EMP resistance has a large effect against stray EMP damage, it's not going to hold up at all against sustained EMP attacks without using shields to relieve the pressure.

Even worse than EMP is large anti-armor damage from weapons like HIL, Tach Lance, Plasma Cannon, Hellbore, etc., against which Shield Shunt has no recourse. Armor tanking is very effective early on (arguably too effective, especially against Pirates and Hegemony) so it's quite reasonable that Shield Shunt falls off very hard late game. Effective armor tanking against tougher fleets requires using shields to block EMP/anti-armor to preserve armor for soaking up weak hits.

On the other hand, converted hangar is a bit of a sly trick in the sim because even if it doesn't contribute much damage it diverts the attention of the enemy so your 1 ship doesn't get overwhelmed, while in a fleet there's already other ships pulling enemy attention.

That being said, I'm super curious what a peak performance eradicator looks like to you.

Were I to use Eradicator in one of my fleets, the specific build would depend heavily on composition of the entire fleet. However, I can't imagine a fleet where I'd use an SO Shield Shunt Eradicator, whether base or (P). It's simply not the right ship for that strategy: not tanky enough to survive, nor fast enough to outmaneuver enemies.

Calling CH decoys a "sly trick in the sim" implies that it doesn't work in live combat, but in fact I use CH extensively in my actual fleets - it's not a simulator-only gimmick. All builds have weaknesses, not just SO and Shield Shunt builds; for long-range kinetic builds, their main vulnerability is being swarmed and not being able to apply shield pressure fast enough to push enemies back and maintain range. Using CH as a defensive decoy is actually a perfectly logical strategy to compensate for this weakness, even during full fleet combat. (You'll notice that the Warthog's limited engagement range serves as a feature to tether itself to its home ship as a decoy, instead of wandering away to chase some random frigate it can't catch.)

In fact, one tendency I see in many players is to not compensate at all for build weaknesses, but instead merely excuse them as "this ship is designed to be a flanker" or "this ship is only designed to fight X types of enemies but avoid Y enemies" - and then blame the AI when the build fails because the AI isn't programmed to execute those parameters exactly. I believe that the AI performs best with builds that are more situation-agnostic and with some safeguards against the most common failure scenarios - and for long-range kinetic builds, CH is one example of such an AI-friendly safeguard.

4
General Discussion / Re: Is Thumper good now?
« on: June 21, 2022, 05:25:23 AM »
I found the thumper good in this build. Took far more damage than Dashiv's build but chewed through the enemies much faster.
Although in my case I'm using the default eradicator and as far as I can tell thumpers don't regain charges faster when the ammo feeder is going, so maybe that would be a good way to buff them.

Results between base Eradicator and Eradicator (P) aren't at all comparable. As a reference, I plugged your build into an Eradicator (P) and the results weren't great - out of 5 trials, only 1 success while defeating an average of 41.6 of 73 DP. AAF is a world of difference, especially with SO as a stacking multiplier.

But it gets much worse. As I previously wrote:

Simulator testing proves very little about the effectiveness of loadouts in actual battle - combat videos against Ordos fleets is the standard benchmark. There's a particular danger in over-optimizing for simulator performance (especially solo simulator performance) that don't translate into live fleet vs fleet combat.

Still using your build on the Eradicator (P), I replaced the SIM Eagle with the Falcon (using dual Ion Beams) and the results were even more lopsided: 0 of 5 successes, averaging just 16.4 of 65 DP defeated. This is because your build is over-specialized to take on weak, slow ships that lack any EMP or decent armor breaking.

To illustrate this even more dramatically, I tested using a SIM fleet of Aurora, Falcon, and Sunder (Close Support w/ HIL), totaling "only" 55 DP. Results: 0 of 5 successes without a single kill for your build, while my build succeeded 5 times in a row easily (even though Breaches and CH Warthogs didn't pull much weight against these enemies, although BRF Railguns proved more impactful).

The point isn't whether either of our builds is the platonic ideal Eradicator build - I can assure you that neither one is, especially given how hastily I threw mine together without even trying it out in live combat - but rather that it's foolhardy to extrapolate too much from very limited simulator performance against a very specific set of targets. If you bring your Thumper + Shield Shunt Eradicator build against a high tech bounty or a multi-Ordos stack, you're going to be horribly disappointed in its performance, regardless of how it tested in the simulator against those select targets.

As for whether Thumper need another buff - I think it's performing fairly reasonably for a 7 OP punch-down weapon. To me, Thumper adequately fills its specific niche now that it's been given burst. It's not supposed to perform like a 13 OP premium weapon.

5
General Discussion / Re: Is Thumper good now?
« on: June 20, 2022, 03:27:58 AM »
Eradicator has 17 DP so Make simulation battle vs : 2 Hammerheads, 1 Mule, 1 Carrier = 37DP 
This Build eats them all at once for breakfast. All AI control only.

[...]

If you thing any other weapon is better, then lets make it a contest. Same ship Eradicator, same opponents.
So, do you agree Thumper is GOOD ?


Challenge NOT accepted, because it's completely trivial to use an officered ship to trample hapless SIM ships at only 2:1 odds - any officered loadout that can't handle tougher odds than this in the simulator would be seriously deficient, and you didn't even include any ships of the same size class. Therefore, let's up the ante by adding 2 cruisers into the mix (an Eagle and a Venture) to double the odds to 73 DP against for a spicier and more reasonable challenge.

Same parameters: AI piloting, 6 officer skills, 2 elite skills, 2 s-mods, and no Omega weapons. The loadout is a simple HVD Breach combo:



The video is a quick and dirty build that's clearly not endgame optimized (I mean lol CH Warthogs, amirite?), but it shows how easy it is to bully multiple weak SIM targets. Some additional notes:
  • Your build is a complete mess in terms of weapon selection, weapon groups, officer skills, etc. I'd suggest reading the stickied build guide on this forum as a basic starting point.
  • Thumper and Shield Shunt are both "punch down" tools that are designed to bully inferior targets, so they should definitely feel strong against size-disadvantaged SIM ships. However, they're not as well suited for taking on superior enemies, such as officered ships, larger ships, and higher DP disadvantages. I ran your build against the same 73 DP SIM fleet from my video 5 times and it got completely demolished, surviving an average of 68 seconds and scoring only 1 kill across all 5 attempts.
  • Simulator testing proves very little about the effectiveness of loadouts in actual battle - combat videos against Ordos fleets is the standard benchmark. There's a particular danger in over-optimizing for simulator performance (especially solo simulator performance) that don't translate into live fleet vs fleet combat.
  • The (P) version of the Eradicator is generally an inferior choice to the standard Eradicator for AI piloting, so your ship selection is flawed from the very start. The Eradicator (P) is better suited as a player ship since players can make better use of mobility systems - in particular, forward-only systems like Burn Drive work much better under player use than AI use.
Welcome to the forums - there's lots to learn about Starsector!

6
General Discussion / Re: Doom AI running into its own mines
« on: June 10, 2022, 11:17:37 AM »
Anecdotally, I've observed the AI Doom hitting themselves with mines when trying to defend themselves from fighters in the current patch. They don't seem to observe consequences when leading the target using dumbfire ordnance, similar to how Flashes will happily bomb the rear of friendly ships when starting their bombing runs.

7
General Discussion / Re: DP vs OP chart
« on: June 07, 2022, 05:37:42 PM »
Pure DP-efficiency is a shoddy way to compare ships, because then you realize the "best" approach to the game is spamming monofleets of overpowered ships and never bother with the other 95%.

I don't feel that fleet composition is quite so simple. For example, the general sentiment in this thread is that Onslaughts are currently more DP-efficient than comparable capitals, but an Onslaught monofleet wouldn't be very effective. Likewise, I feel that Afflictor (P), Omens, and Monitors are some of the most DP-efficient frigates, but they make for rather poor monofleets as well. In fact, there are surprisingly few ships that I would consider as viable candidates for monofleets at an Ordos-hunting level.

8
General Discussion / Re: DP vs OP chart
« on: June 03, 2022, 03:58:24 AM »
The new missile battleship Forgotitsname will be 60dp? I guess it should be with 4 large missiles.

IIRC Invictus is 60 DP and Retribution is 35 DP. I'm not aware of any DP info on the other new capitals: Pegasus, Executor, and Nova.

9
General Discussion / Re: DP vs OP chart
« on: June 02, 2022, 07:14:30 PM »
With the new capitals coming in at 35 and 60 DP respectively, it seems about due that existing capitals were also better differentiated via DP costs like other size classes are, instead of having so many clustered at 40 DP. IMO Onslaught at 45 DP seems pretty reasonable.

10
General Discussion / Re: Ballistic Rangefinder
« on: May 16, 2022, 02:45:17 PM »
Cryoflamer has 400 base range.
I modded and made it 500.

I suspect that could be your problem right there - it's possible the Cryoflamer's unique particle behavior didn't get range-modded correctly. I just tested Cryoflamer on a BRF Conquest (400 + 200 = 600 base range) and it range matched correctly with Pulse Laser's 600 base range.

If you have a Ballistics Mastery officer, that'll also throw off range matching since the Cryoflamer won't receive the BM range bonus.

11
General Discussion / Re: Ballistic Rangefinder
« on: May 15, 2022, 07:37:50 PM »
For non-PD hybrid weapons on ballistic mounts:

No Large Ballistic
Small hybrid: +200
Medium hybrid: +100
Large hybrid: +100
Capped at 800 max.

With Large Ballistic
Small hybrid: +400
Medium hybrid: +200
Large hybrid: +100
Capped at 900 max.

The idea is to make Omega weapons useful on ballistic mounts even though their ranges are designed to be consistent with energy mount usage.

12
Blog Posts / Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« on: May 05, 2022, 06:24:45 AM »
I also had a thought about the new remnant ships - will the automated ships skill get a small rebalance to make the mid-size stuff more attractive to use?
for now the 2 "meta" builds are basically opposite to eachother, you either get one alpha'd radiant or many gamma'd glimmers w/ wolfpack, leaving cruisers + destroyers in an awkward middleground where you can't bring that many to the field or put any real buffs into them.

This has less to do with the Automated Ship skill or how it scales, and more to do with the fact that Brilliants, Fulgents, Scintillas, and Lumens in their current state are bad ships compared to their non-Automated alternatives. Whereas Radiants and Glimmers simply outperform other ships in their size class on a per-DP basis.

Buff the underperforming Remnant ships to perform closer to Radiant/Glimmer level and you'll find lots of players suddenly start using them, without any changes to the Automated Ships skill.

13
Blog Posts / Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« on: May 04, 2022, 04:24:52 PM »
This also brings up an interesting option for the 14th battlegroup ships.  What if the built in hullmod for those *was* a s-mod?  They'd still have some serious power over the default stock ships, but come with the downside of allowing one fewer S-mod in them.  As an interesting way to give them a minor nerf compared to the stock variants.

I'd think it'd be reasonable for both the XIV and LP built-in SO hullmods to take up s-mod slots that are retained upon salvage, assuming the XIV hullmod also loses its speed/maneuverability malus. This would temper expectations for players that "faction ships = better" instead of being sidegrades/possible downgrades.

14
Blog Posts / Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« on: May 01, 2022, 07:34:43 PM »
I will add though that in my experience, the Scintilla is currently the rarest of the Remnant ships - it's quite common to run into big full-strength Ordos (max strength high danger) without any Scintillas at all. For example, looking at the largest 7 Ordos in a high danger system in my current run, here are their fleet compositions:

Hmm, weird - some quick poking around just now, I'm not seeing that, so I'm tempted to say it's just luck - no-Scintilla fleets are certainly possible, but also not predominant, and plenty appear to have a bunch of them. I was specifically looking at higher-end Remnant bounty Ordos.
DaShiv is right!  I just checked a red system, and out of eleven full-sized Ordos fleets, only two of them have Scintillas.  At least one Radiant were in most of the fleets, and several Brilliants, Fulgents, and frigates were in all of them.  Brilliants would be the primary source of fighter LPC drops.

Thanks for confirming my experiences. If others are still also seeing the same thing after the patch drops, then I'm sure there'll be a raft of immediate complaints about how annoying it is to find Remnant LPC's post-patch. As it is right now, it seems like the prevalence of Brilliants is indeed masking the Remnant LPC loot issue.

15
Blog Posts / Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« on: April 30, 2022, 08:10:38 PM »
Hmm - I think the Scintilla is common enough that it's not really a concern. I don't think sticking an extra bay on the Apex would be a good idea - mixing fighters like that would be messy, and the ship really isn't about that, anyway.

Carriers with mixed built-in and modular fighter bays exist in the modiverse, but I can understand the rationale for keeping it out of vanilla.

I will add though that in my experience, the Scintilla is currently the rarest of the Remnant ships - it's quite common to run into big full-strength Ordos (max strength high danger) without any Scintillas at all. For example, looking at the largest 7 Ordos in a high danger system in my current run, here are their fleet compositions:

Ordos Data
Total_DPRadiantBrilliantScintillaFulgentGlimmerLumen
438370436
533480562
480450656
470346754
322370436
372480562
360450656
[close]

I don't know whether it's an artifact of fleet generation for large, cap/cruiser heavy fleets for Remnants or some other weighing (or just plain bad luck/seed), but for me currently it's much easier to find even Radiants than Scintillas once Ordos size become large enough. Perhaps caps/cruisers are displacing them from their proper spawn rate, especially if Brilliants also count as carriers (as Apex would in the future).

In any case, if Scintillas are to become the only source of Remnant LPC's then they should be guaranteed spawns in a large Ordos like the other ships currently appear to be.

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