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1

General Discussion / Re: Combat in this game is frustrating

« on: June 25, 2023, 03:36:09 AM »

So basically you just described my problem here. Current AI is based on ships considering individual enemy or friendly ships as a basis of their action and not the fleets. So a gladiator match, not a fleet engagement.

Btw strictly speaking, escort is not a commonly used term in actual naval engagement, I think Alex meant screening, but I don't really expect that level of precision, since most players don't practice naval warfare irl

2

General Discussion / Re: The Dream Battle, Updated: 5 Executors defeating 5 Remnant Ordos video

« on: June 25, 2023, 02:45:06 AM »

Well I tried to argue for better fleet coordination AI elsewhere, but the end result was that I was educated that the role of the escort is body blocking

But yeah, ships breaking formation and suiciding themselves are really infuriating.

3

General Discussion / Re: The Dream Battle, Updated: 5 Executors defeating 5 Remnant Ordos video

« on: June 22, 2023, 05:51:17 AM »

Start watching from the 8:30 mark in the most recent video CapnHector added to the opening post.  There is clearly a Brilliant coming up behind hitting with a Tachyon Lance.  Flak cannon wouldn't help with that.  Yes, some missiles get through, but the last ship, while turning is taking direct fire hits to the engine, not just missiles.

To pull off a retreat like this without losses typically either requires a fast player flagship, an omni-shield ship, a phase ship, or something with high engine hp plus quick repair times.  This fleet uses the last one.

Hmm Apogee has good shields, large energy and large missile. And 360 coverage. Is it possible to do 3+ ordo with Apogee? How would you build it?

4

General Discussion / Re: Combat in this game is frustrating

« on: June 21, 2023, 06:04:23 AM »

I don't think this in any way disproves my point. Btw escorting is not body blocking. Naval warfare or screening in ground warfare is just not that.

I'm not using the algorithm backward, I'm using it in its intended role, based on its name. If the game is implementing escort as something else, it should call it something else. But this is tbh a totally secondary debate.

My main point is still that the ships doesn't work as a military unit they are gladiators in an arena. And this is frustrating.

Finally, the point about symmetric AI is just completely untrue. We, average players, have almost no way to tell why ship AI makes a decision, thus we can't plan accordingly. The opposite fleet AI on the other hand is built based on this knowledge. Just giving the same amount of command points and regeneration rate won't even come close to level the playing field.

It's nice to have individualistic ships as long as you know why they do what they do, without becoming expert in the topic. It's just frustrating, because average players don't have a handbook on Startsector Ship AI. Either give us better coordination or more accessible information/description about ship AI. We have none of that right now.

5

General Discussion / Re: The Dream Battle, Updated: 5 Executors defeating 5 Remnant Ordos video

« on: June 20, 2023, 09:58:31 AM »

How would you build them for the task? Btw 5 Onslaughts could carry 20 Pilums :O

6

General Discussion / Re: The Dream Battle, Updated: 5 Executors defeating 5 Remnant Ordos video

« on: June 20, 2023, 07:17:27 AM »

Speaking of Pilums and Locusts on capitals as pre-condition for beating 3+ ordos. Could someone do this with mono Onslaught XIV, Legion, Legion XIV fleets? I guess they have enough missile slots, and strong armor and hull stats. Obviously the poorly defended rear and low speed/maneuverability is a problem, but I would like to see whether it is possible to do something like this with low tech capitals.

7

General Discussion / Re: Combat in this game is frustrating

« on: June 20, 2023, 06:39:47 AM »

Look I'm not exactly new to the game

I know that if the AI follows orders more explicitly, the player will have to take more responsibility for the orders. And I'm fine with that. And I'm also open about the fact that I'm not a good pilot. However I'm pretty sure I'm familiar with basic naval tactics due to my other interests etc...
So for me implementing fleet coordination would be a big boost and I'm sure I'm not the only one here who thinks that.

Also, you have to be careful, because considering other units nearby is not the same as coordinating. I don't think it needs further explanation, but if you think this, we have very-very different conception of "coordination".

Btw imo just implementing better escort algorithm would be a huge improvement over current AI.

8

General Discussion / Re: Combat in this game is frustrating

« on: June 19, 2023, 10:50:53 AM »

So I managed to read through all the discussion regarding the AI. Someone said that AI not exactly following orders is good, since it gives AI controlled ships personality. Others point out that this only works if they make good decisions.

I think the main problem is that even if they make good individual decisions, they are not coordinating. Either you make them to follow orders or they should be able to interpret the intent of the order.

My problem is that some factions rely a lot on formations, different ships acting as one. I can't order them to do that by explicit orders, since they won't follow that and the AI doesn't take into account the "big picture". The reason why regular strategy games implement units in such a way that they always follow orders is because they give up on implementing an AI that can read the intent of the player. If player can create formations by giving explicit orders, the mistake is the player's fault.

But in our case we have a big *** moving in any direction, totally uncoordinated. We need a fleet coordination mechanism or we need the AI to better follow orders. No army or navy accepts individualistic out-of-formation behavior and this is for a very good reason. Historically, usually the better coordinating fleet can win engagements even if the odds are against them.

I don't really care about ships making individual decisions as long as they don't get in the way of others and simultaneously blocking their own way of retreat. I think everyone knows what I'm talking about. Also, an escort should cover the capital ship and not block it. I had countless instances of Onslaughts getting outflanked because their escort is actually charging ahead and blocking the Onslaught's fire, thereby *** up the situation twice (with balanced fleet and officer aggression).

The funny thing is that if by sheer luck I can form a square formation of Onslaughts, nothing can break through since they can mutually cover each others back. I would be totally fine with not being able to give exact orders if my Onslaughts would naturally try to cover each other by assuming the proper formation dictated by the situation. But as long as I need to build the formation, they better follow my orders...

A fleet should act like a fleet and not as gladiators in the Colosseum.

Pullo! Formation!!!

9

General Discussion / Re: Colony Threat event

« on: June 14, 2023, 07:16:39 AM »

So TLDR: the problem with the hostile activity is that we actually can't see it and deal with it, we just feel its effect because of some magic numbers. It would be nice if we could actually, you know, detect and catch something that is called "activity".

10

Announcements / Re: Starsector 0.96a (Released) Patch Notes

« on: June 11, 2023, 09:52:53 AM »

Did these ghost ships ever go beyond the size of a legion? would be a whole lot better that it would be ships from the XIV as they could really give more of a mysterious vibe into it or would be very nice if there was a person still onboard the ship and they would ask us to find the rest of his flotilla.

Maaaaan such a good idea. Flying Dutchman of the XIVth.

11

General Discussion / Re: the 4 way choice in the skill points distribution is unfun

« on: May 21, 2023, 03:43:04 PM »

I think we had the same arguments with 0.95.1

But iirc Alex told us that he would consider adding +1 (or something like that) to the maximum level. I wonder why he didn't do it in the end.

12

General Discussion / Re: Hostile Activity is still waaaaaay too high, by a factor of 3x+

« on: May 16, 2023, 04:01:44 PM »

@Alex

Speaking of soft caps. I could see something very similar to this proposed administrator soft cap implemented in the officer corps. Instead of the hard cap+mercenaries, you could do some kind of soft cap there, too. It actually makes sense since we have a soft cap for the fleet, too.

Like "bloated officer corps" which decreases the individual skill bonuses if you go above the cap. (I don't think increasing the upkeep is enough if the player has a money printer.) That way the limit of the many officers could approach the effect of the Support Doctrine affected ships, obviously without the DP bonus. And although more officers would help to balance against the core spam of the Ordo fleets, the lack of DP reduction would still counteract it.

13

General Discussion / Re: Hostile Activity is still waaaaaay too high, by a factor of 3x+

« on: May 16, 2023, 02:44:32 PM »

I could actually get behind the idea of soft-capping admins by for eg introducing a corruption mechanic. That's waaaay more fun than just strictly limiting the player to whatever number of admins.

14

Announcements / Re: Starsector 0.96a (Released) Patch Notes

« on: May 16, 2023, 07:34:42 AM »

Just to quickly give my opinion here.

I think the design intention behind the Onslaught is to create the best CQB duelist in the game. Correct me @Alex if I'm wrong.
And I think that Onslaught is THE deadliest knife fighter. A well-built Onslaught can beat a Paragon or a Radiant or a Pegasus if it gets close and the opponent can't get out of range. Your job as a captain/commander of the fleet is to create a situation where you can maximize its advantage and minimize its weaknesses. But if you can create a situation that is advantageous for the Onslaught, nothing can escape it.

Obviously, this is true for a lot of other ships, it's just that for them the advantageous situation is completely different, and that's why we have different playstyles/preferences/opinions. Thx Alex for implementing such a great game.

TLDR Onslaught is good as is, but you need to know how to use it.

15

Announcements / Re: Starsector 0.96a (Released) Patch Notes

« on: May 15, 2023, 02:03:36 PM »

Well, one thing I wouldn't want is to have Pegasus at 60 DP. I think it's cool that we have a battleship at almost every DP "tier"(35/40/45/50/60 so far)

Also, the missile mounts rotate? Wat

Missile hardpoints normally don't, but on the Pegasus they do, thanks to a MISSILE_HARDPOINTS_ROTATE flag in the csv. Which is specifically so that dumbfire missiles/torpedoes are more usable there, which is kind of a problem, so, uh. Very much self-inflicted.

Sounds great! I would love to have the Pegasus back with those stats, including at 60 DP. It seems that lowering the top speed will also play into the vulnerability I mentioned without lowering shield efficiency, since essentially if you spend more time on the approach to target you are taking more incoming fire in the process.

You are the best <3

Glad nothing jumps out as being too "off" there! I'd like to avoid making it 60 dp if possible - it doesn't feel like that sort of ship to me, but, yeah. Alright. Let's see how this goes!

@Alex

What about raising the DP to 55?
It would be nice to have a 35,40,45,50,55,60 DP capital ship
And I think it looks great as a 55 DP ship. Not quite a Paragon or Radiant, but stronger than an Executor.
You could also advertise this 5 DP difference between the two skins as proof, that the Executor after all is kinda a failed project.