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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24)

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Messages - Lorebot

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Bug Reports & Support / How long to get my key back?
« on: November 28, 2023, 04:32:02 PM »
I rebuilt my computer a few months ago and in the process I seem to have lost my Starsector activation key. I sent an email to bmtmicro to have them look it up a few days ago but I haven't gotten any sort of message back from them. Does anyone know how long this usually takes? Is there anyone that can help me check in on the process to see if there's some sort of issue?

The final applied damage counts as hitting hull.  You are not hitting armor.  There is no -25% damage from Impact mitigation for example.

Maybe this will clarify.  The calculations we've presented are the equivalent when hitting hull with fragmentation damage of doing the following:

Multiply by 25%, determine armor mitigation and apply, and then multiply by 4 at the end, because you're hitting hull, and not armor.  The 25% factor is undone.

The same is true for kinetic.

Multiply by 50%, determine armor mitigation and apply, and then multiply by 2 at the end, because you're hitting hull, and not armor.  The 50% factor is undone.

So you treat it as hull, but you will never do full listed damage as per the weapon description against any target's hull unless it starts with 0 armor, as there is currently always some mitigation.
Thank you. I think the miscommunication is about my use of the term 'full damage' which to me means 100% of base damage being applied before mitigation. A Kinetic weapon hitting Armor is doing 'half damage' to me, it would deal 'full damage' against Hull and 'double damage' against Shields. I understand that each situation has it's own damage reduction mechanics, but the damage type itself is reduced or increased based on what type of structure it's hitting before any other mitigation is applied. The question wasn't about 'mitigation' it was about 'what type of structure is the weapon hitting' because the wiki and the guy on discord both implied to me that there was no way to deal damage against Hull anymore because of the 'minimum armor value' mechanic treating everything as hitting Armor even after the Armor had been stripped.

This is only applicable if the damage is being applied against hull not armor. If 'residual armor' still counts as armor the Flak will be reduced to 25% before the damage reduction from the residual armor is even applied. This is where my confusion lies, everything seems to point to 'residual armor' still counting as armor and not hull, so Kinetic and Flak damage types can never deal full damage to a target because they're never hitting 'hull'.
Base damage is multiplied by damage reduction that uses anti-armour values. As in my example:
100 is the base damage of a frag weapon, 25 is the residual armour
100 x (100/4) / ((100/4) + 25) = 100 x 25 / (25 + 25) = 100 x 25 / 50 = 100 x 1/2 = 50
50 is the damage dealt to hull

In comparison, against actual armour of 25, the damage dealt would have been instead:
(100/4) x (100/4) / ((100/4) + 25) = 25 x 25 / (25 + 25) = 25 x 25 / 50 = 25 x 1/2 = 12,5
That's not how it works. Residual armor doesn't "count as armor" before the damage reduction is applied. Read my post above. There's never a way to deal "full" damage to hull, but frag hitting hull with residual armor is much better than frag hitting actual armor. In the first case, you are only penalized by the armor damage reduction modifier, in the second, you get that ON TOP of the 25% base efficiency.
You guys are throwing a lot of numbers at me and assuming I understand where you're getting these numbers from and that I understand the minutia of the game's armor mechanics. I'm sure you're well meaning, but it's not answering my question in a way that I understand. Perhaps the nature of the armor reduction mechanics in the game being as arcane as they are is part of the issue. Another issue is likely that we're having some sort of miscommunication around the terms 'hull', 'armor', and 'residual armor' because you both seem to have a much deeper understanding of things than I do perhaps I'm misusing a term?

My understanding of things is that Kinetic and Flak weapons have their damage reduced to 50% and 25% respectively when hitting Armor and then the Armor's damage reduction is applied. The value of the damage reduction from the armor is immaterial to my question because my question is whether or not that initial damage reduction to 50% or 25% is still being applied once the armor is stripped and the weapon is hitting Hull.

The person on the discord and the wiki both seem to indicate that even once the Armor is removed and only 'residual armor' is remaining that the weapon is still being treated as if it's hitting Armor and the 50% or 25% initial reduction is still being applied before any damage reduction from 'residual armor' takes effect, in essence making it impossible to deal damage directly to the Hull and thus never getting full damage application. If this is the case then even a Talon Fighter with only 25 armor will only ever take 25% of Flak damage even after that armor is stripped away. This would make Flak weapons essentially pointless against anything with even a minimal armor value because they'd always be reduced to less than 25% damage unless the target had no armor to begin with, like missiles.

Your answers seem to be answering a much more detailed question than the one I'm asking. I just want to know if I'm interpreting the wiki correctly in its implication that 'residual armor' still counts as Armor not Hull.

Frag is mostly a PD damage type, that's true. It does, however, tend to have high dps and high flux efficiency. It's worth remembering that no amount of residual armor can reduce damage below 15%, so high raw DPS will still shred hull even with very low hit strength.
This is only applicable if the damage is being applied against hull not armor. If 'residual armor' still counts as armor the Flak will be reduced to 25% before the damage reduction from the residual armor is even applied. This is where my confusion lies, everything seems to point to 'residual armor' still counting as armor and not hull, so Kinetic and Flak damage types can never deal full damage to a target because they're never hitting 'hull'.

Base damage is reduced using values as if it was hitting armour (kinetics have half their hit strength, frag has one fourth). Four weapons with hit strength of 100 and different damage types, hitting residual armour of 25, would be reduced differently:
HE would be reduced to 89 damage
Energy would be reduced to 80 damage
Kinetic would be reduced to 67 damage
Frag would be reduced to 50 damage
This misses the point of my question. I'm asking if there's really no way to ever actually hit Hull for full damage anymore. I understand the damage reduction provided by armor, but the idea that stripping armor completely never actually exposes the hull to allow weapons to deal base damage is ludicrous to me. It makes Flak damage completely pointless and neuters Kinetic damage for anything other than taking down shields.

Today someone asked in the discord what the purpose of the Thumper is in the game and in the ensuing discussion someone mentioned that there essentially is no way to hit 'bare hull' anymore. I was very confused by this so I went digging on the wiki and it seems to confirm that armor can no longer be completely stripped from a target so if the target has any armor to start with there's no way for Flak damage to ever be fully applied. I recognize that armor will always provide 5% of its starting value for damage reduction even after being stripped from a target, but I had assumed that once stripped the damage would be applied vs hull not against armor.

If this is actually how it works then not only does it make Kinetic damage sub-par for finishing a target, but it makes Flak damage mostly useless against anything that has any armor at all which includes fighters and bombers which seem to be some of the targets it's actually meant to deal with most effectively.

I understand the change to allow armor to always provide 5% of its base value do the damage reduction calculation, but I had assumed that once stripped the damage would be applied vs hull allowing Kinetic and Flak damage types to do full damage against the target. Am I mistaken? This doesn't make any sense to me from a balance standpoint...the whole point of Flak damage is to be able to quickly knock out fighters and missiles, but if fighters always have armor they'll only ever take 25% damage from Flak which defeats the purpose of using the damage type against them.

Mods / Re: [0.95a] DIY Planets - Terraforming and more!
« on: May 03, 2021, 03:08:01 PM »
Does removing the atmosphere from a planet with Atmospheric Removal tech also remove extreme weather modifiers? AFAIK without an atmosphere a planet shouldn't really have weather at least not in the way the game is implying with hurricanes and cyclones and stuff.

Can you potentially turn a gas giant into a terran world by removing its dense atmosphere/high gravity and building terraforming infrastructure on it?

I happened to get both an Extraction and Ransom mission on Umbra. When I went to the planet I contacted the Fence for the Ransom mission first and decided to send my marines in to rescue the hostage. On the 'choose objectives' menu it listed both the Ransom and Extraction targets and I chose to do both at once, but when it was over the Extraction objective didn't complete. I was unable to perform another raid and I figured the Extraction mission was bugged somehow so I reloaded a save and tried again. This time I did the Extraction raid first and the mission objective updated properly for me, but when I clicked on the Fence for the Ransom and chose to send marines to rescue the hostage the Extraction mission objective was still in the list of available objectives. I ignored the Extraction since I'd already done it and the rescue worked fine, tho I feel like I lost way more marines in the rescue than normal which is possibly intended since the station was already on lockdown and I shouldn't have been able to perform a raid.

I'm gonna start a new save branch in case having the save would help somehow.

General Discussion / Weapons Cache inside a star?
« on: April 27, 2021, 03:59:41 PM »
Any of you guys seen this before? I was under the impression that objects couldn't actually fall into a star/black hole but that doesn't seem to be the case. Is there any way to reach this or is it just lost?

[attachment deleted by admin]

Mods / Re: [0.9.1a] Supply Forging 1.4
« on: April 27, 2021, 07:34:32 AM »
Please break with the convention of condescending passive-aggressive commenting in the settings file.
The more disorganized and more cocky it gets the more offensive it becomes. Refrain from using math in your argument. Math is based on fundamental terms and terms that can be reduced to fundamentals, whereas you apply a hidden, unexplained logic in your mod how forged supplies are calculated, project it (in your head) as general knowledge and make a personal insult to the user based on this twisted assumption. Even if you introduced the logic in the mod description that could theoretically put the blame on the player, which you didn't, you must understand that you have no right to do this.

Personally its not fun correcting, rephrasing and moving the comments for clarity on each release.
Regardless your expectations for positive and negative feedback, I think people come here for new possibilities thanks to this great idea, not for insults.
Please don't be a jerk, you don't see the whole picture. The snarky comment about math is a left over from an older version of the mod where the conversion values for things were actually in the settings file and not based on a global variable that's defined outside the mod. I agree that it's not very helpful and needs to be updated, but there's no reason to get nasty about it. You said yourself it's not fun correcting comments, so you already know why it wasn't updated when the mod changed.

Just enjoy the mod and be respectful.

Bug Reports & Support / Re: Bug with Automated Ships CR?
« on: April 26, 2021, 09:26:21 PM »
yeah...that's very confusing.

TBH I was expecting my automated ships to actually have 100% CR until I went over the 30 point limit. Given how few ships you can use within that limit I had assumed that the idea was that you would operate above the limit with 60-70% CR. It's pretty much impossible to make any real use of larger automated ships given most of them start at more than 20 points...1 ship with an AI puts you at or over the limit a lot of the time.

That's a really small reward for how much you need to invest to get the skill required to use it.

Do fully integrated AIs still count against the point limit?

Bug Reports & Support / Bug with Automated Ships CR?
« on: April 26, 2021, 07:36:50 PM »
So either I'm confused, there's a bug in the CR for automated ships, or both?

The skill says my automated ships should have 73% CR, but they're not going above 50%. I have 41 automated ship points in the fleet, that's above the 30 so it's being reduced from 100% to 73%. So why aren't they going up to 73%?

Bug Reports & Support / Re: The Typo Thread
« on: April 25, 2021, 03:14:42 PM »
I'm pretty sure this is supposed to be 'brought' and it's missing the T

[attachment deleted by admin]

Bug Reports & Support / Re: The Typo Thread
« on: April 24, 2021, 07:49:51 AM »
found another one

[attachment deleted by admin]

General Discussion / Re: Story Difficulty Scaling
« on: April 22, 2021, 09:20:12 AM »
Fixed, but also every battle is technically avoidable just by burning out or doing a standard retreat.
This assumes your fleet is small enough to do a standard retreat and that the fleet trying to attack you isn't breaking the rules to catch you.

During one of the story missions I had a fleet chase me down, in hyperspace, in a nebula, and they were burning at me at like 12 burn inside the nebula and there was no way for me to avoid the fight and my only choice was to burn a SP to escape or fight. I spent the story point and after the couple second delay you get for 'escaping' they just burned at me again going 12 speed inside the nebula and caught up to me and forced me into another fight...I didn't have enough SP to keep doing this over and over so I chose to fight and they had like 3 capital ships vs my fleet with no capital was a blood bath.

So yeah...quick save before doing anything for a story mission because it seems sometimes there's no escape and no surrender...

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