Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Anubis-class Cruiser (12/20/24)
The final applied damage counts as hitting hull. You are not hitting armor. There is no -25% damage from Impact mitigation for example.Thank you. I think the miscommunication is about my use of the term 'full damage' which to me means 100% of base damage being applied before mitigation. A Kinetic weapon hitting Armor is doing 'half damage' to me, it would deal 'full damage' against Hull and 'double damage' against Shields. I understand that each situation has it's own damage reduction mechanics, but the damage type itself is reduced or increased based on what type of structure it's hitting before any other mitigation is applied. The question wasn't about 'mitigation' it was about 'what type of structure is the weapon hitting' because the wiki and the guy on discord both implied to me that there was no way to deal damage against Hull anymore because of the 'minimum armor value' mechanic treating everything as hitting Armor even after the Armor had been stripped.
Maybe this will clarify. The calculations we've presented are the equivalent when hitting hull with fragmentation damage of doing the following:
Multiply by 25%, determine armor mitigation and apply, and then multiply by 4 at the end, because you're hitting hull, and not armor. The 25% factor is undone.
The same is true for kinetic.
Multiply by 50%, determine armor mitigation and apply, and then multiply by 2 at the end, because you're hitting hull, and not armor. The 50% factor is undone.
So you treat it as hull, but you will never do full listed damage as per the weapon description against any target's hull unless it starts with 0 armor, as there is currently always some mitigation.
This is only applicable if the damage is being applied against hull not armor. If 'residual armor' still counts as armor the Flak will be reduced to 25% before the damage reduction from the residual armor is even applied. This is where my confusion lies, everything seems to point to 'residual armor' still counting as armor and not hull, so Kinetic and Flak damage types can never deal full damage to a target because they're never hitting 'hull'.Base damage is multiplied by damage reduction that uses anti-armour values. As in my example:
100 is the base damage of a frag weapon, 25 is the residual armour
100 x (100/4) / ((100/4) + 25) = 100 x 25 / (25 + 25) = 100 x 25 / 50 = 100 x 1/2 = 50
50 is the damage dealt to hull
In comparison, against actual armour of 25, the damage dealt would have been instead:
(100/4) x (100/4) / ((100/4) + 25) = 25 x 25 / (25 + 25) = 25 x 25 / 50 = 25 x 1/2 = 12,5
That's not how it works. Residual armor doesn't "count as armor" before the damage reduction is applied. Read my post above. There's never a way to deal "full" damage to hull, but frag hitting hull with residual armor is much better than frag hitting actual armor. In the first case, you are only penalized by the armor damage reduction modifier, in the second, you get that ON TOP of the 25% base efficiency.You guys are throwing a lot of numbers at me and assuming I understand where you're getting these numbers from and that I understand the minutia of the game's armor mechanics. I'm sure you're well meaning, but it's not answering my question in a way that I understand. Perhaps the nature of the armor reduction mechanics in the game being as arcane as they are is part of the issue. Another issue is likely that we're having some sort of miscommunication around the terms 'hull', 'armor', and 'residual armor' because you both seem to have a much deeper understanding of things than I do perhaps I'm misusing a term?
Frag is mostly a PD damage type, that's true. It does, however, tend to have high dps and high flux efficiency. It's worth remembering that no amount of residual armor can reduce damage below 15%, so high raw DPS will still shred hull even with very low hit strength.This is only applicable if the damage is being applied against hull not armor. If 'residual armor' still counts as armor the Flak will be reduced to 25% before the damage reduction from the residual armor is even applied. This is where my confusion lies, everything seems to point to 'residual armor' still counting as armor and not hull, so Kinetic and Flak damage types can never deal full damage to a target because they're never hitting 'hull'.
Base damage is reduced using values as if it was hitting armour (kinetics have half their hit strength, frag has one fourth). Four weapons with hit strength of 100 and different damage types, hitting residual armour of 25, would be reduced differently:This misses the point of my question. I'm asking if there's really no way to ever actually hit Hull for full damage anymore. I understand the damage reduction provided by armor, but the idea that stripping armor completely never actually exposes the hull to allow weapons to deal base damage is ludicrous to me. It makes Flak damage completely pointless and neuters Kinetic damage for anything other than taking down shields.
HE would be reduced to 89 damage
Energy would be reduced to 80 damage
Kinetic would be reduced to 67 damage
Frag would be reduced to 50 damage
Please break with the convention of condescending passive-aggressive commenting in the settings file.Please don't be a jerk, you don't see the whole picture. The snarky comment about math is a left over from an older version of the mod where the conversion values for things were actually in the settings file and not based on a global variable that's defined outside the mod. I agree that it's not very helpful and needs to be updated, but there's no reason to get nasty about it. You said yourself it's not fun correcting comments, so you already know why it wasn't updated when the mod changed.
The more disorganized and more cocky it gets the more offensive it becomes. Refrain from using math in your argument. Math is based on fundamental terms and terms that can be reduced to fundamentals, whereas you apply a hidden, unexplained logic in your mod how forged supplies are calculated, project it (in your head) as general knowledge and make a personal insult to the user based on this twisted assumption. Even if you introduced the logic in the mod description that could theoretically put the blame on the player, which you didn't, you must understand that you have no right to do this.
Personally its not fun correcting, rephrasing and moving the comments for clarity on each release.
Regardless your expectations for positive and negative feedback, I think people come here for new possibilities thanks to this great idea, not for insults.
Fixed, but also every battle is technically avoidable just by burning out or doing a standard retreat.This assumes your fleet is small enough to do a standard retreat and that the fleet trying to attack you isn't breaking the rules to catch you.
