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Starsector => General Discussion => Blog Posts => Topic started by: David on July 26, 2015, 11:28:24 AM

Title: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: David on July 26, 2015, 11:28:24 AM
Blog post here (http://fractalsoftworks.com/2015/07/26/the-trouble-with-greebles/).
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: Cycerin on July 26, 2015, 11:42:10 AM
Fighting the urge to overgreeble is an endless battle. I def. learned a lot from seeing how you've started approaching Starsector's sprites differently.

Also that new frig is super retro looking. Is it a shuttle or what?
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: Ahne on July 26, 2015, 11:56:17 AM
An interesting read, nice to see how you are approching this for the new generation of starsector ships. Also very nice to know, that stuff is going on and the next ss version is coming closer, hype?!
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: Tartiflette on July 26, 2015, 11:59:18 AM
Mmmh, I'm not a huge fan of the new Eagle... The first one was definitively over-the-top in term of greeble, and the second a stark improvement. But that new one lost something imo: some volumes aren't as defined as before, especially on the front arms and just behind the side medium turrets. There is also the fact that the whole armor has the same frequency details now, when before some parts were very detailed and other smoother, the scale is more difficult to guess. And the arms details seems rougher too, not as polished as the rest, plus the sudden break in the lines when the side medium hardpoints emerge straight from a tilted shape with tilted plating.
Sorry for the harsh disappointment post, and I swear, I'm not complaining because I have three variants of the Eagle to redo for a coming mod. (or only a little >< )
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: Zudgemud on July 26, 2015, 12:11:48 PM
Nice blog post :) I like the change in greebleness, and I think that guide is great (I should try to follow it more though...).

I really really dig the new eagle look, the front armor now looks like a proper armored shell for the softer innards, the only complaint is that the mid forward hardpoint stands out more now, and does not flow as naturally into the rest of the hull as it did in the previous versions, I think it is the sharp contrast between the whiter centerpiece and the more saturated brown color that makes it stand out more now.

I'm kinda ambivalent regarding the new frigate though, it looks a bit too much like a fat space shuttle, which is a pretty meh spaceship shape.
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: MShadowy on July 26, 2015, 12:40:20 PM
An interesting write up for sure.  Greebling is actually an area where I feel a bit weak on, so I mostly do big smooth hull surfaces.  That being said it's probably a little cocky to proclaim that it's not something I might have a problem with.

I'm a bit conflicted over the changes to the Eagle; the contrast between the armored sections and the exposed mechanical parts around the engineering is much stronger now, which gives a good feel.  On the other hand, like Tartiflette noted, there's some loss in sense of scale and some of the areas around the bow feel weaker.  Also it lost the slight assymetry, which I rather liked.

The new shuttle looks neat; has a nice kinda retro style to it.  Nifty.
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: Thaago on July 26, 2015, 12:55:32 PM
Interesting!

I really like the new eagle (and will promptly be staring at it to try and replicate the armor style :P).
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: Megas on July 26, 2015, 01:02:31 PM
Quote
Which is more interesting to look at, A or B? Then: which is playing a supporting role better in the overall context of the work of art?
A.  I like smooth.

I have not been much of a greeble fan.  I prefer a smooth look over a greeble-infested eyesore even if the former is considered primitive by some.  (I also prefer symmetric ships over asymmetric mutants.)  I like Eagle #3 with almost no greebles the best.

I see a new frigate-sized ship, as others have noticed.
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: HELMUT on July 26, 2015, 01:19:04 PM
As Cycerin said, that new shuttle-thing looks straight out from some 90's Shmup. That's pretty cool.

I'm not sure about the Eagle MK.III. Before you could clearly place him in the mid-tech family with the Hammerhead, Conquest etc. But now? It feel more like a semi-high-tech D-variant, a bit like the Odyssey. I'll still gladly take it but i'll probably miss the MK.II. I hope you'll eventually try to "smooth-it-up" other ships like the Venture or the Apogee in the future.

By the way, is it possible to have a png of that old web page layout? So many pipes! And rails and wires and tubes and... For someone that loves the "flying oil refinery" style, this is a kitbashing wet dream.
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: CrashToDesktop on July 26, 2015, 01:22:39 PM
I dislike the color of the new Eagle - it seems much more low-tech now with the brownish overtone - but the it has improved greatly (in my mind, at least).  The details like the raised front ends of the turret platforms are a nice touch, too - give the main deck of the ship a sloping feel. :)
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: SafariJohn on July 26, 2015, 01:41:04 PM
I'm not sure of my opinion either way on the new Eagle. I'll have to see it "in the overall experience of the game." ;)
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: NeutroniumFurnace on July 26, 2015, 02:13:47 PM
The issue is that the "greebles" as you call them caused there to be a sort of scale to the ships. A largeness personified by all the multitude of tiny pieces making them up. Even small ships felt large due to all the interlocking plates and pieces. Not only does getting rid of them make the ships themselves (in my opinion) look substantially worse, but also serves to remove the uniqueness of the ships. The ships don't look as unique anymore, they look more like things drawn by committee than by an inspired artist.

I don't expect to change your mind, but since you have been developing the same game over the course of 5 years and made the same amount of progress a team of 4 could do in as many months, I don't see you changing much of anything let alone your own mind.
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: TheDTYP on July 26, 2015, 04:57:29 PM
New ship confirmed you guys!!!!!!
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: Thaago on July 26, 2015, 05:45:52 PM
The issue is that the "greebles" as you call them caused there to be a sort of scale to the ships. A largeness personified by all the multitude of tiny pieces making them up. Even small ships felt large due to all the interlocking plates and pieces. Not only does getting rid of them make the ships themselves (in my opinion) look substantially worse, but also serves to remove the uniqueness of the ships. The ships don't look as unique anymore, they look more like things drawn by committee than by an inspired artist.

I don't expect to change your mind, but since you have been developing the same game over the course of 5 years and made the same amount of progress a team of 4 could do in as many months, I don't see you changing much of anything let alone your own mind.

Well that was rude of you. You do realize that David has a full time job at another game company, correct?

In terms of greebles: when done right, they can add scale. When done wrong, they just add noise. I don't think any of the old sprites were that bad, but I very much like the look of the new Eagle. It looks like its covered in armor plates, not in random lines.
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: Cathair on July 26, 2015, 06:08:05 PM
Mmmh, I'm not a huge fan of the new Eagle... The first one was definitively over-the-top in term of greeble, and the second a stark improvement. But that new one lost something imo: some volumes aren't as defined as before, especially on the front arms and just behind the side medium turrets. There is also the fact that the whole armor has the same frequency details now, when before some parts were very detailed and other smoother, the scale is more difficult to guess. And the arms details seems rougher too, not as polished as the rest, plus the sudden break in the lines when the side medium hardpoints emerge straight from a tilted shape with tilted plating.
Sorry for the harsh disappointment post, and I swear, I'm not complaining because I have three variants of the Eagle to redo for a coming mod. (or only a little >< )

This pretty much mirrors my own thoughts, but in greater detail.

I agree that the middle Eagle is a definite improvement in terms of drawing the eye to its defining shapes, and I think it actually has a better sense of depth to it than the original sprite.

I strongly dislike the Eagle on the right, though. From a distance it just looks blurred somehow. Also (and this is more of a personal taste thing, I admit), the new raised 'wells' for the turret mounts adds some of the weird plastic-y bulbousness that turns me off about the larger Tri-Tach ships. Just doesn't fit well with the image I've built up of this ship's 'character'.
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: miro on July 26, 2015, 06:34:00 PM
I think that the new Eagle looks pretty wicked. The main advantage of the big smooth hull is that when it's damaged, it actually looks scoured out and pitted. The same damage on a greebly ship sort of blends in with the noise.
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: Megas on July 26, 2015, 06:43:11 PM
I like Eagle #2 the least.  It looks like someone took Eagle #1 and blurred it, like someone wanted to convert it to a Heron but failed, giving it a confused art style.  Eagle #3 has removed (most of) the ugly greebles, and now it looks smooth and sleek.  It appears more brown-ish and more low-tech, but with high-tech smoothness.  (If it was bluish, it could pass as high-tech if it lost the ballistics).
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: DatonKallandor on July 27, 2015, 04:19:59 AM
Eagle 2 is the best one. The low greeble Eagle is just flat and boring looking. Kind of like the new small ship in the teaser screenshot - that thing looks incredibly generic. Doesn't even seem to fit into the game's overall aesthetic. Especially compared to the most "basic" current Starsector ships, the Shuttles, this new one is still not competing.
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: Histidine on July 27, 2015, 04:30:48 AM
Not-an-artist 2 cents:

Like some of the others here, I think Eagle #2 strikes the best balance with the detail level, and #3 looks like it should be painted blue and made a high-tech ship.

New shuttle looks... like it doesn't fit somehow. Not with the new ships (well Eagle #3 at least) nor the old ones, the design with the little windows and the thin colored lines are just too different from the stuff we currently have in the game.
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: HELMUT on July 27, 2015, 05:27:11 AM
the design with the little windows and the thin colored lines are just too different from the stuff we currently have in the game.

Eh, the Venture, Apogee, Shepherd and Gemini are like that too. I think the new Shuttle feel weird because just like the new Eagle, we're not used to see some "un-greebled" ship with a mid-tech paintjob. To be honest i'd rather wait for a clean png to judge the overall sprite, that screenshot doesn't do it justice.

My only concern about this ship is its purpose. We already have the Mercury and the Hermes as light-freighters. What can that thing do more to make it interesting? With only three small mounts, its use on the battlefield will be severely limited. So what? A sensor frigate thingy?
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: Megas on July 27, 2015, 05:39:35 AM
The new ship appears to have two Salamanders and maybe a Vulcan.  Unless those two hardpoints are universal, it appears to be a cheap missile ship.

EDIT:  I like "un-greebled".
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: Protonus on July 27, 2015, 06:10:49 AM
I never thought the Eagle class was that very clunky by detail on its first release.

Compared to its previous ones, I personally believe the latest design draws a lot closer to what the Onslaught resembles, that cold, smooth sheen with brown shading makes the most out of it.

For those who want to know my thought process:
Spoiler
I do think the changes of smoother overlays to the hull make up the immersion of ships being vacuum worthy, but as far as Sci-fi goes, it may not be a case. Most starships from old media are quite detailed with the rustic piping and gruesome mechanisms installed, which by far are quite interesting to feel by it. Meaning that it is both nostalgic and memorable. A special mention of the Bebop from Cowboy Bebop for its intricate machinery is simply awe-inspiring.

Most shiny ships by modern time may look cool, with the incredible sheen and decent lacquer but knowingly everything else were already shiny in the future, it would get rather old quickly. Sure I would ride the Liset in Warframe anytime, but I usually forgotten its figure in the next few minutes from playing since I spent more time as a shiny character in the process.

But in the perspective in this game, I would say the ships be in between with the new greebles and of 14's, as the focus of the game are the ships and always be ships. As a handful of components should suffice the needs for the looks of the ship. I may not be able to craft well when it comes to placing details on my own but I do believe ships with a standard "Bulkhead, Turrets, Bridge and Engine" asset does feel a little bit repetitive regardless of shaping of the object. So usually, we may want a ship that has its personality while remaining functional, stable and gameplay worthy, ships like the Conquest served that purpose, and with its large pneumatic pipes gave it a feel that it begs to be rotated and provide tremendous thrust towards the enemy front. The Paragon may serve the role too, but with less detail it felt like an alien ship that can wipe out entire fleets on its own.
[close]

So above all, I like the new greeble design, looks fantastic and well-made but it still needs to be felt by the players themselves before deciding which ship design goes out better than the other.

...

Well, I lost my words by now, so I did something.
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: a.c.macauley on July 27, 2015, 07:29:24 AM
"Greeble", my new word for the day and I didn't even have to buy a calendar, nice. I like the latest Eagle, I don't think limiting said greebles diminishes the scale of the ship, if anything getting rid of some of the fine details and adding the "bulbous" turrets does something even better, it adds a sense of depth that wasn't there before.

Edit: Would love to see it with a few damage decals stuck on and flight of flighters skimming past, that's the final test.
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: selkathguy on July 27, 2015, 09:04:49 AM
I like greebles, but the eagle and a few others were almost excessive and had visual noise that actually made it difficult to discern the amount of damage without looking at the readout on the ui.  This is what you said, and I think the new eagle looks pretty cool and accentuates the damage that the player can see so thats awesome.

However, not every ship needs to be this way.  Some more professional, manufactured ship designs could be more rounded and smooth, have custom molded/rolled plates for their features, and be generally on the same level of finish as the new Eagle.  Other ships could be thrown together by independent shipyards / space mechanics / faction with limited resources, and could be more greebly since they lack the resources to nicely plate over every aspect of the design or "design".  I would say don't be afraid of a little visual discord sometimes not neatly showing discrete differences or statuses, as it is a problem that would actually be experienced based on the situation and not due to any kind of "bad art design".

A lack of information can be just as powerful as information when it comes to immersion and building atmosphere I think.

Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: Gothars on July 27, 2015, 09:29:40 AM
I like the new eagle best, especially those little domes encircling the weapon mounts. Nice :) Will the Eagle's relatives (Falcon, Heron, maybe Conquest) be aligned with that look, or at least get the same color scheme?

The new shuttle thingy suffers quite a bit from the clashing contrast between its smooth curves and the angular side weapons. A case where they might look much better under the sprite?

(Also, why isn't the blogpost titled "Grief with Greebles"? Or "Greeble-Greed"?   ;))


Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: LazyWizard on July 27, 2015, 10:50:50 AM
(Also, why isn't the blogpost titled "Grief with Greebles"? Or "Greeble-Greed"?   ;))

*cough* (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trouble_with_Tribbles) ;)
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: Ahne on July 27, 2015, 11:02:05 AM
too much t(g)reebles bad or good , you are so right lazywizard haha

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/50/ST_TroubleWithTribbles.jpg)

halp me i like the new and the old eagle!
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: xenoargh on July 27, 2015, 04:27:35 PM
Honestly, I feel like the current iteration went too far; you're at the, "might as well start over again" stage with that low-frequency approach.  I really like how you're attempting to apply Jansen's ideas- but don't forget how much emphasis he puts on form following function, too.  That's something where in the designs where function is clear (like the tanker) it really works; where I think that things are harder is on some of the warships, where the functional concepts are not very clear.

But let's talk about the noise ratios first.  For example, the gun positions, especially the front ones, look really vastly more noisy against the smooth plates, which I think is distracting and doesn't work well (I didn't think it worked well on the Tri-Tach stuff, either).  That's a pretty easy fix; just reduce their noise a bit, work to the palette and smooth things out.  But it's what I saw immediately and it pulls my eyes away from the main show.

But the biggest critique I'd give is that somewhere during this redesign, the new Eagle really lost its sense of scale.  It no longer really feels like a big Cruiser, a massive, menacing wedge (with surprising maneuverability).  The greebles helped, in the sense that they created a sense of function, even if they weren't really contributing much; when it's this smoothed out, the lack of functional meaning is clearer.  A few areas of high-frequency, noisy detail or some functional areas in amongst those smooth surfaces could really help that. 

The shuttle doesn't feel nearly so out-of-scale, because all that smoothness is compressed into a relatively small area, so it's not as obvious and the smooth is balanced.  Even there, I feel like a panel line or two might get it to feel right.

There is also the major problem of losing the aesthetics that made each Faction distinctive, insofar as they've ever been differentiated; that high-frequency look was largely defining for early Independent / Midline ships, with their dull monotones, whereas Low Tech has always felt a little more organic and open and High Tech has always been smoother (well, other than a few outlier designs that look like they're alien tech). 

This is one of SS's major areas where I still think it could be improved; visual themes that stay consistent across a Faction make them iconic and are helpful in terms of feel and as a marketing device.

I also thought that the comment about the Onslaught was interesting, in terms of understanding where you come from, design-wise.  I've never felt that the Eagle was "related" to the Onslaught, visually (although that may have been true early on).  They're both vaguely wedge-shaped, but none of their incarnations have really had much in common, design-wise.  The Eagle and Falcon are clearly relatives, but bore more of a relationship with the Conquest, in most respects, both palette-wise and in terms of effect and specific patterns of greebles; the Onslaught's primary visual motif is that the big heights and overlapping armor plates, along with the bird-like rear section, give it a very organic feel, whereas the Eagle has always come across as a functional machine.

Anyhow, I apologize if any of this isn't what you wanted to read; figuring out what to transition and why is a very difficult choice sometimes when working on projects like this, especially where what you're doing as an artist and how you approach art has changed considerably over time.
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: David on July 27, 2015, 10:06:07 PM
Incoming reply broadside!

Also that new frig is super retro looking. Is it a shuttle or what?

I'm kinda ambivalent regarding the new frigate though, it looks a bit too much like a fat space shuttle, which is a pretty meh spaceship shape.

You guys are doing rather well with reading into its in-fiction role.

As Cycerin said, that new shuttle-thing looks straight out from some 90's Shmup. That's pretty cool.

I'm not sure about the Eagle MK.III. Before you could clearly place him in the mid-tech family with the Hammerhead, Conquest etc. But now? It feel more like a semi-high-tech D-variant, a bit like the Odyssey. I'll still gladly take it but i'll probably miss the MK.II. I hope you'll eventually try to "smooth-it-up" other ships like the Venture or the Apogee in the future.

By the way, is it possible to have a png of that old web page layout? So many pipes! And rails and wires and tubes and... For someone that loves the "flying oil refinery" style, this is a kitbashing wet dream.

It's funny, the new frigate is inspired very directly by the shape of a "generic spaceship" used in some of the icons I drew years ago for Starsector. I was looking at the icons again and thought 'I want to draw that ship!'. See here:

(http://i.imgur.com/BdP8b2O.jpg)

As for the greebles, well, if you insist. It's attached to this post.

The issue is that the "greebles" as you call them caused there to be a sort of scale to the ships. A largeness personified by all the multitude of tiny pieces making them up. Even small ships felt large due to all the interlocking plates and pieces. Not only does getting rid of them make the ships themselves (in my opinion) look substantially worse, but also serves to remove the uniqueness of the ships. The ships don't look as unique anymore, they look more like things drawn by committee than by an inspired artist.

I don't expect to change your mind, but since you have been developing the same game over the course of 5 years and made the same amount of progress a team of 4 could do in as many months, I don't see you changing much of anything let alone your own mind.

First: I'm not sure what you hope to accomplish by insulting me. I don't appreciate it.

Anyway, what's interesting here is that the numbers you suggest - four workers times four months, full time - are fairly close (given a generous degree of error) to the actual number of hours I've been able to work on Starsector art over the course of the project. Though from my experience in leading a four person art team there is a management and a "get everyone to work in a similar style" cost that you're likely not accounting for.

I could definitely make you a space game with my four person team in very little time, but it wouldn't be nearly as considered as Starsector.


My only concern about this ship is its purpose. We already have the Mercury and the Hermes as light-freighters. What can that thing do more to make it interesting? With only three small mounts, its use on the battlefield will be severely limited. So what? A sensor frigate thingy?

The other two shuttles were indeed a baseline, but you will find that the new one handles a *lot* differently, and really fills a different role. Especially the Luddic Path variant, heh heh...

*cough* (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trouble_with_Tribbles) ;)

Hah, I'm glad someone got it!

There is also the major problem of losing the aesthetics that made each Faction distinctive, insofar as they've ever been differentiated; that high-frequency look was largely defining for early Independent / Midline ships, with their dull monotones, whereas Low Tech has always felt a little more organic and open and High Tech has always been smoother (well, other than a few outlier designs that look like they're alien tech). 

This is one of SS's major areas where I still think it could be improved; visual themes that stay consistent across a Faction make them iconic and are helpful in terms of feel and as a marketing device.

There is a key line in the post that I think applies to the point you raise: "The impetus for this revision is, really, driven by a desire to create some ‘skin’ variants. And doing so was bloody impossible with all those greebles mucking things up!"

Hmm! Hmmm.

Anyone, there's an overall point I think bears stating really explicitly: I love greebly spaceships. That was my starting place going into writing the post, and perhaps I didn't state that fact strongly enough. What was interesting to me as an artist is questioning my (burning, passionate) love for greebles and asking of myself why they were in the design, what do they serve, how do they justify their existence, and what happens when I restrain myself a little from that indulgence. It's a challenge to myself, ya'know?



[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: Dri on July 27, 2015, 11:14:06 PM
I'm fine with the new Eagle, I just don't like the brown tint its taken on - almost looks like rust, which is fine on low-tech ships but not on something higher tech. O_o
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: SatchelCharge on July 28, 2015, 05:10:47 AM
I like the new one overall but I think the bulbs around the turret mounts are too pronounced.
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: Bobakanoosh on July 28, 2015, 08:09:56 AM
I like the new Eagle look! Although, I somewhat agree that a sense of scale can be lost if certain ships are "smoothed out" too much. But then it makes you think about the canon side of things. Like how all these ships, to my understanding, are produced in automated factories. The ship design with the thousands of plates welded/bolted together indicated that workers made the ship, but a large ship made with fewer, larger plates indicates that it was made in a robotic-centric production line, where robotic arms that can handle the extra weight move and attach the pieces.

The color of the new Eagle makes me think of a new model that hasn't been painted yet, but has a corrosion/rust preventative coating on it. It'd be great if there was a way to change the color of a given ship in-game.
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: icepick37 on July 28, 2015, 08:14:54 AM
I was super defensive of your greebled style coming into the article, haha. I have loved it for years, but you totally sold me by the end.

That new eagle looks pretty sweet. Maybe a little bubblier, which could ruin it's "Imperial death machine!" vibe if taken too far, but with the guns mounted it still looks right.

It's fun seeing how you've grown as an artist over the years. Keep rocking it!

Also, yes more ships please, always more ships.  :)
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: kazi on July 28, 2015, 08:23:15 AM
I freaking love the new Eagle and the new ship. DON'T LISTEN TO THEM DAVID!!!!  :D

Any plans to redraw existing ships in the new style? I think the Condor and Gemini could benefit most. The current Condor sprite never quite truly captured the "Millennium Falcon"-feel of the original concept art.
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: xenoargh on July 28, 2015, 10:32:46 AM
Quote
There is a key line in the post that I think applies to the point you raise: "The impetus for this revision is, really, driven by a desire to create some ‘skin’ variants. And doing so was bloody impossible with all those greebles mucking things up!"

Hmm! Hmmm.
I agree with that sentiment and I get the problem.  Trying out specific paint schemes with a greeble-covered ship is somewhat harder and can be really annoying :) 

That said, I think that the point about a sense of scale is probably the biggest issue.  The easiest solution for that is to simply add some functional-looking specific greebles that stand out, or some pixel-art touchup to bring out some things.  Here, I gave it a go:

(http://www.wolfegames.com/TA_Section/ss_eagle3.png)(http://www.wolfegames.com/TA_Section/ss_eagle3_v1.png)(http://www.wolfegames.com/TA_Section/ss_eagle3_v2.png)(http://www.wolfegames.com/TA_Section/ss_eagle3_v3.png)

I didn't touch any of the features or invent any new forms.  I just brought what I could see out a little bit more, which helps re-establish scale quite a lot.  It isn't perfect but I think it describes what I'm talking about better than more verbiage might :)
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: David on July 28, 2015, 10:57:45 AM
That said, I think that the point about a sense of scale is probably the biggest issue.  The easiest solution for that is to simply add some functional-looking specific greebles that stand out, or some pixel-art touchup to bring out some things.

I forgot to mention in the post: another reason why I'm wary of relying on classical pixeling is the fact of Starsector's changing zoom level and sprite rotation. If you can guarantee that a pixel is always exactly a pixel, then it can work with that precision. If you can't, then traditional pixel art techniques can lead to some weird artifacts as you zoom in and out and rotate. Not to say that the techniques are totally inapplicable, just that they might need to compromise a bit.

And the sprite one posts on a blog, or on the forum, or draws in Photoshop isn't what players will see in-game. It's what is experienced in-game that must be of absolutely overriding concern.
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: SafariJohn on July 28, 2015, 11:34:37 AM
I prefer the white-ish color scheme of the Eagle on the left, but that one on the right sure would be intimidating to encounter!
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: xenoargh on July 28, 2015, 11:49:20 AM
I think the zoom level consideration is one of those technical factors that's largely out of your (and Alex's, for that matter, given how he's rendering) control; different GPUs will handle the fine details of rasterization at different zooms differently. 

About the only way to get semi-firm control over that would be to render the sprites with a shader pass designed to arrive at a very specific outcome, in terms of what people will see.  It's quite possible to run a shader to do pixel-pixel comparisons, sharpen up heights, etc., although once again, you get into some compromises, such as having to be quite careful about adjacent pixel values for some things, using some very specific colors as control objects, etc.

So there's a lot of that that's kind of beyond your control as an artist.  the main issues are, to my mind:  "does it look really hot at 1:1, in the equip screen" and "does it look terrible at max zoom on our test hardware because <insert thing here> is problematic as pixels get averaged". 

If neither is an issue, it's working about as well as it's going to.  With shaders filtering the results to a very specific requirement (i.e., rendering out all ships, weapons, etc., to a FBO first, then manipulating, then writing a quad to the screen), you can tune things better.

(http://www.wolfegames.com/TA_Section/ss_eagle3_zoomtest01.png)(http://www.wolfegames.com/TA_Section/ss_eagle3_zoomtest02.png)(http://www.wolfegames.com/TA_Section/ss_eagle3_zoomtest03.png)(http://www.wolfegames.com/TA_Section/ss_eagle3_zoomtest04.png)(http://www.wolfegames.com/TA_Section/ss_eagle3_zoomtest05.png)

Here, we're looking at what could happen with different filters, at 2X zoom.  This is bicubic, bilinear, nearest neighbor, bicubic_smoother + nearest neighbor @ 50%, bilinear  + nearest neighbor @ 50%.  This is further out than Vanilla lets us zoom out, of course, but you can see a lot of difference, in terms of quality and feel.  Most GPUs are basically doing bilinear passes, but aniso steps in to re-sharpen a bit, if enabled, so it's a good starting place but suffers from a bit of mush.  With a shader, you can control it a bit better across hardware.

A shader could even do a bit of rebalancing after that filter is done, adjusting contrasts a bit, like using Curves, resulting in better overall recognizable shapes and such, too.  Bilinear, with enhancement (a Curves step, basically just a push filter, followed by a Sharpen step, which is a nearest-neighbor filter):

(http://www.wolfegames.com/TA_Section/ss_eagle3_zoomtest06.png)
And that could happen in a really subtle way, based on a zoom value sent to the shader as a uniform, so that it doesn't pop from one thing to the other.

Anyhow, there is a lot of stuff that's possible there, at a technical level; shaders to do post is probably the best single tool besides what's in the art.  I agree that what's in the art can make or break the piece, but I think there are things that can be done to minimize the impact :)
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: selkathguy on July 29, 2015, 08:41:17 AM
[...]
About the only way to get semi-firm control over that would be to render the sprites with a shader pass designed to arrive at a very specific outcome, in terms of what people will see.  It's quite possible to run a shader to do pixel-pixel comparisons, sharpen up heights, etc., although once again, you get into some compromises, such as having to be quite careful about adjacent pixel values for some things, using some very specific colors as control objects, etc.
[...]

This post is insightful and deserves attention.  Considering Alex is very interested in the artistic aspects, and as a developer myself with HLSL experience, this seems fairly important as it can can strongly affect the feel of the presentation.  However I am selfishly eager to play with the new features since, judging by the blog posts, v.65.2a is way behind the trunk.
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: Schwartz on July 29, 2015, 09:06:20 AM
I agree with the gist of it, but not with your opinion of that particular oil liner ship being overly greebly. Look - you have distinctiveness everywhere. Distinct engine compartments, a distinct side cockpit, some industrial foundation and a very recognizable red tank theme. They all work to create a spaceship with a distinctive look. You allowed yourself some room for 'technobabble' and some room for bigger, distinctive shapes. That creates a nice contrast. Now look at the Dominator. It's just -some kind of shape- with sub-shapes drawn on it. You may say it's less greebly, but it's also less distinctively a spaceship. It could be a high-tech shield, the front view of a robot or a massive futuristic power plant. I'm not trying to take a shot at your designs. They're very cool and unique, but I feel equally as important as 'noise' is the idea of distinct pattern clusters. The red tanks are one such cluster, the engine array is another. The Dominator also has nice engines, but it feels more 'flat', probably largely because of the way that it's coloured in gradients all over. If the middle triangle was, for example, an orange, and the two arms were red with a menacing pattern.. it would suddenly pop out that the triangle is meant to be 'above'. Just some food for thought.

Also a part of the problem is that weapons can be so big that they overshadow the sprite work underneath. I'd be curious to see how they looked if they were all downsized a bit, maybe with fixed-guns halfway hidden and layered 'underneath' some kind of fitting manifold distinct to individual ships or tech types. More ship, less distraction.

Nice Eagle by the way. Love the little sphere islands for the guns.

Anyway, keep doing what you're doing and go for your own vision. Redesign where you feel it's due. You can't go wrong there.
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: xenoargh on July 29, 2015, 09:11:27 AM
Quote
I am selfishly eager to play with the new features since, judging by the blog posts, v.65.2a is way behind the trunk.
I actually agree with you on that; it's not really broken and these issues are mainly about polish; but we all love watching David fussing with polish :)
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: Marrow85 on July 30, 2015, 05:46:55 PM
I happen to love your Greebles! I'm an old school gamer and am sick to death of the over simplification of graphics in modern games, I loved the old dark graphics of diablo and the classic space pixel art. I find the drive for smooth shapes, bright colours and easy user freindlyness just plain ugly and childish. Ok maybe loose the odd bit of piping but please don't go all MMO on us! Any real spaceship should be held together by nails and gaffa tape, with the odd bit of tinfoil poking out (these are the bits nasa don't show you and the reason space x hasn't got going yet... not enough bodging, too many PR committees)
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: Xanderzoo on July 30, 2015, 06:30:49 PM
Overall, I agree with you. Too many greebles can confuse the viewer and detract from the ship's design. However, the new Eagle just doesn't work for me... It feels like a scaled down concept art rather than a finished ship. It's just a little too smooth. I quite like the little shuttle ship you made!
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: Megas on July 31, 2015, 06:43:11 AM
I thought old-school ships were vector outlines (early '80s games made by Atari or Cinematronics), simple sprites (Galaxian/Galaga), or crude polygons.  Smooth is really old-school probably because of hardware limitations.
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: xenoargh on July 31, 2015, 09:15:35 AM
Yeah; real Old Skool is basically about limitations on memory and hardware in general more than anything else.  When I see it done on purpose, especially to the point of ridiculousness (16-color palette for a whole modern game rendered using modern tech, for example), I generally cringe.  There's absolutely nothing wrong from learning from the genius of the past (pixel-art palette tricks and the wonderful tricks they used with ramps, yo) but that doesn't mean that I just want to see it repeated over and over again ad nauseum.

It's one of the reasons I quit playing Reassembly pretty fast; it's pretty swell... for vector art that isn't Out of This World (http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/original/8/81005/2464285-another+world+2012-07-03+21-42-37-14.png)... but it's still very flat and I honestly wish its game-design depth was presented more effectively, visually.

I think that SS's best ships are, if anything, very much not of that world; they're firmly in 32-bit and they're huuuuuge by Old Skool sprite standards, which I like a lot.
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: Camael on July 31, 2015, 07:21:59 PM
Girlfriend is a fashion-designer, and I am... uhm, a guy. At some point I had to tell her, really, the stuff You guys chose to wear does look horrible 80% of the time. She was like "I know. It's not about looking good, it's about looking fashionable." Same issue I sense here. Probably for a schooled eye, an artist or graphics designer this progress in style is all awesome and reductionist-mature and what not. To some un-artsy spacecowboy like meself the new eagle looks... uhm... like plastic. Old eagle... it's not so much about the sense of scale, more about the sense of material. It looks like it's a spaceship surface with features. Only high-end tech should be allowed to have organic forms and plastic-looks, as it says super-high-tech-titanium-polymer-xenophobium-alloy molded into shape by designers with too much time to really make it look smooth. Older ships... should look fixed up, older designs should look mainly functional - those are the designs that outlive their respective aeras. An older ship, in a brownish colour... with that surface... suggests yoghurt, not big space-war.

Sorry, but I sincerely dislike the new style and while I am willing to see it in action and change my mind, at first glance, this new style kills half of the greebly feel of the game.

Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: nomadic_leader on August 01, 2015, 01:00:53 AM
The new Eagle is great. This is really moving SS art in the right direction.

It addresses one of the main issues with SS' sprites: a lot of time you can't tell what the ships are supposed to look like.  By simplifying the design, as you state, you draw attention to the composition and overall shape, so each ship's "personality" stands out more.

This helps to make the ships stand out more in gameplay, which is very important. Though greebliness can be good for occasional ships or factions, when every ship has them, they blur together.

I recommend the Enforcer get this treatment!
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: Megas on August 01, 2015, 05:48:04 AM
Eagle #1 and #3 have distinct styles.  Eagle #2 looks like either someone could not decide what style to use or it was unfinished, and it shows.  Eagle #1 is the classic Eagle-greeble design, which is sharp and well-defined.  #2 appears to be a transition from #1 to #3, but it is mostly #1 with few smooth areas and a lot of greebles blurred away.  #3 is mostly smooth (and I like it the best).

My only possible complaint about #3 is if the Eagle's weapon mounts remain the same, then those two new holes between the side small turrets and side medium hardpoints look like more mounts to stick weapons in, if there were lighter-than-light weapons in the game.  Bit of a tease if we have areas that look like weapons mounts but are not.
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: Dratai on August 01, 2015, 08:11:49 AM
I think I'd take a little issue with the shapes that the #3 eagle suggests, before anything on the new design. The oval-like shapes feel a little tacked on.
Meaning it still kinda looks greebly.
But removing the greebles is still nice- I think the issue with a lot of ship design is more visible between, say, the old star wars trilogy and the prequel trilogy.
A lot of the initial trilogy's ships had greebles and uneven surfaces and looked far too busy, with cannons for, say, the death star being boxes tacked ontop of an extremely greebly landscape- so they vanished into it.
On the other hand, the clone cruisers, specifically the carriers featured in the prequel trilogy.. are a lot more smooth, and they have contrast colours.
The turrets are generally in even spaces along the surface/top side. With the bridge/shield generator elevated. They're mostly white exceft for the hangar bay door which slides open being highlighted in red.
It's simple, it's just greebly enough to draw attention and it's mostly smooth and you see clearly when the hangar bays open.
So it's a step in the right direction but from your own words tacking on the little half-shapes kind of retains a greeblyness that I, personally, don't think should be there considering most of the ship is so angular/straightened vectors. Two of the forward guns on the newest eagle look a bit tacked on compared to previously- Like they've been glued into place on a model after it's been finished like some kind of afterthought.
On the other hand it's a lot easier to see what the ship is, what it does, what guns point where when mounted- so it's a good progression even if it might not suit everyone's taste. On the upside of this, the ship also now looks like a complete piece where the hull itself is concerned, the middle forward section no longer looks as out of place as it might have.

Other than that I have no complaints- this could be a very good thing especially for a few of the phase ships out there because some of the larger ones I find I have problems seeing the turrets on, for instance.
The apogee could possibly also use some streamlining. For a supposedly high-tech ship it looks somewhat greebly compared to the other ones.

Keep up the good work!
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: SCC on August 02, 2015, 02:22:12 AM
I think greebles should remain on multi-role ships, kinda like it was indicator of focus (the simpler the ship, the more specialised it is). That way they would have some role anyway, and besides, who knows for what purposes where those areas of ship used, or designed to be used - after all, maybe creators of ships thought it would be easier to just repurpose unused space on the ship than to go all the way back to the nearest shipyard to modify (or even buy a new ship!) the ship so as to have ship do something needed now, but unavailable earlier because nobody thought it would be needed. You would say that back when those ships were designed there was Domain of Man - but this sector is (almost) space frontier, isn't it? And on the space frontier one can find themself in a very dangerous situation... Or just find more treasure than the cargo can hold. :D Anyway, I think it's reasonable to left some areas of the ship unused just so they can be used by captains if they would need so - at least the civilian ships, because in military you are not supposed to mess with your ship anyway. And bigger ships should have more (if only by virtue by having it at all) than small ships (well... Frigates.) simply because bigger ship can have more roles without detriment of main ones (especially if those secondary aren't combat roles). So, greebles without specific purpose are good if they fill a general purpose... What.

On the newest Eagle - why did it change it colours? Go back to that white-ish something, I liked it better. D: On a more serious tone, for some reason that quite white (I don't even try to find it's name, too many colours are "just a little bit off") is somewhat unique and better than that rusty tone.
Also, turret bulbs. What? Couldn't they just make turrets aligned with armour? I mean, it isn't like in space is some kind of universal horizontal plane, right? I know it's because of game's 2D, but it makes them jarringly outstanding - the rest of core ships is sleek and stuff, and suddenly, BULBS. Though I must admit that middle front light mount looks neat with its small cosy hole. And that I'm a bit overacting, design-wise (not in-universe-wise), since light mounts don't jar me as much as left and right medium mounts. Central medium mount looks more like a part of design (though it's a little bulby too. Maybe make it look like it's on top of that triangular armour part?).
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: Clockwork Owl on August 02, 2015, 07:38:38 AM
I try to think what does it do when I do the greebling... That does work, but at a cost of mental burden.
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: TheHengeProphet on August 03, 2015, 12:56:11 AM
Really, turret bulbs make a lot of sense.  A turret in a divot would not have as much an angle for use as a turret on a bulb.  While more obvious, a 180+ degree operational range is better than a 180- degree operational range.  You want to be able to focus as much fire on a location as possible.

I'm... okay with the new colour.  It brings it closer in line with the supposedly mid-line Mule; however, I would have preferred the Mule been brought to the average than the inverse.  I do find, however, the new Eagle looks more like a beefy destroyer than an actual cruiser, now, as it's lack of greeble has almost cost its sense of scale.  I very much understand the need to smoothe out the textures for the purpose of easily "re-branding" ships, I fear it may cost the Starsector universe its "used" feel.  Even the Enterprise D and Voyager, from Star Trek had more greeble than the new Eagle.

Now that I have posited my two cents, I would like to thank David for all of the graphical work he has done thus far, and I greatly appreciate the level of thought he obviously continues to put into this venture!
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: Gothars on August 03, 2015, 05:35:59 AM
I very much understand the need to smoothe out the textures for the purpose of easily "re-branding" ships, I fear it may cost the Starsector universe its "used" feel. 

Just look at the Eagle-d from the blogpost, you get all the greebles when the ship is actually "used".
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: TheHengeProphet on August 03, 2015, 06:47:56 PM
I very much understand the need to smoothe out the textures for the purpose of easily "re-branding" ships, I fear it may cost the Starsector universe its "used" feel. 

Just look at the Eagle-d from the blogpost, you get all the greebles when the ship is actually "used".

I would say that goes past "used" and is in the realm of Distraught.

However, with the new texture, it could be easily be painted blue to look like a Tri-Tach ship.
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: angrytigerp on August 03, 2015, 09:22:59 PM
I think greebles have their place, and while coating the ship art with them is dangerous, so too is stripping away.

Even as I type this, I'm looking out on ships on the waterfront here (US Sailor, for reference), and I have to echo the sense of older designs should = more greebles. I'm aboard a new-school LPD (on my phone so I can't link a picture, just Google "San Antonio-class") and its newness is obvious -- it's a very curvy design, we've got the enclosed mast, everything looks more modernized. Then look at the old LPD style (I wanna say Houston class?) It's cluttered with cranes, boats, an exposed mast covered with electronics, etc. Ditto for upcoming new destroyer class (Zumwalt) vice the current design (Arleigh Burke) -- a similar disparity between sleek, futuristic design with minimum exposure of gear, and a mast coated in antennas and random radomes and antennas sticking out all over.

Obviously, I'm not trying to say necessarily that you should basically design stuff with older = greeble-ier, but it does indicate the older, less advanced designs and technologies that went into constructing it.

Just my deux centimes.
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: celestis on August 04, 2015, 02:35:12 AM
I liked the curvy fragments around med slots on the new Eagle, but the color is wrong and I think you removed too much greeble. I like the 2nd variant much more than 3rd (except round parts, as I've already said).
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: Nanao-kun on August 04, 2015, 11:57:50 AM
I thought the Eagle was smoothed so that it could serve as a base for the ship skins that we would actually be using?
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: Megas on August 04, 2015, 04:17:45 PM
However, with the new texture, it could be easily be painted blue to look like a Tri-Tach ship.
Agreed.  Same with the Heron, too.  Actually, because Heron has no ballistic-only mounts, if Heron was colored blue and its CR deployment raised, it can easily appear as a high-tech or Tri-Tachyon ship.  Eagle, if its medium hardpoints changed to energy, and its flux stats boosted (and special changed to Phase Skimmer), it could be high-tech too, and I prefer to use an energy-spec Eagle over an Aurora.  (Aurora is only good as a missile boat.)
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: Madao on August 14, 2015, 11:18:57 PM
Personally, I like greebles, it's an aesthetic that really speaks to me.

But my own preferences aside I have always loved the aesthetics of Starfarer Starsector and the fact remains that it is still my number one most enjoyed game. I check the page for updates everyday without fail. As far as the art style goes, I agree that sometimes you need to change things around for technical reasons, as you said reducing greebles helps to sharpen and define ship damage and so on.. But there is nothing integrally wrong with the aesthetic itself. It always spoke to me of overuse and disrepair, of grungy post apocalyptic civilisation in recovery. It felt very real to me.

Picasso might have decided that his art style was wrong and could have written a book justifying how by switching to a cleaner modern portrait style he could better define to the viewer what he wanted to express.. But it wouldn't change the fact that it wouldn't be Picasso anymore. People don't love it because it is efficient, they love it for what it is. There is no right and wrong to aesthetics, just what you and others like. You have to choose who you want to appeal to I guess and go from there.

Back to my own preferences I feel the new eagle has gone too far to one side now, a too clean hyundai-esque plastic thing going on.. But the new shading also adds alot more depth the ship and armour.. I like the previous one, but I can settle for this one too. I would love the new one with just a little bit more greebles added back in for good measure  ;D

The most important thing I want to express is that all that aside Alex can do no wrong by me, please just keep doing your thing! I'm anxious too see the latest development one way or another ^^



Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: Aereto on August 24, 2015, 06:57:57 AM
There is much to think about the greebles in the ships. The important part is that the greebles have purpose to indicate the ship's technology of the time appropriate to lore and ship designer. Having too-little or too much compared to the ships of the same line/theme can make certain viewers feel off about the design, sticking as the odd one out.

Hegemony ships, as far as I looked into the design, used ships whose core design was built before shielding came into being. That makes importance of redundant systems, ablative armor, and robust parts to survive engagements.

In regards to the Eagle, the second iteration is the preferred, as, lighting/angle wise, the first iteration does happen to make the ship appearing having large, raised components that appear taller, with gaps for good measure. The third iteration makes it an Eagle-class variant, belonging to another ship designer who was tasked in redesigning the hull and systems, but I could not pinpoint if that was for reduced or improved functions in the later portion of the era.
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: Debido on August 26, 2015, 10:32:46 PM
Maybe Stian can do a re-mix of the 'Jaws' music when patrols are near the players...you know just for fun...
Title: Re: The Trouble With Greebles
Post by: Tartiflette on August 26, 2015, 11:52:57 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/rbRzcyg.gif)MOAR GREEBLE! (http://fractalsponge.net/?p=562)

Greeble is life, greeble is good...