Fractal Softworks Forum

Starsector => Mods => Topic started by: xenoargh on February 11, 2015, 09:28:58 PM

Title: [0.65.2aRC2] Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 6
Post by: xenoargh on February 11, 2015, 09:28:58 PM
This is a simple rebalance mod for Starsector's core combat values and concepts.  

I'm putting it here because I'd like to get it on the release page and get feedback from people actually playing, rather than read endless theorycrafting arguments.

It implements:

1.  Beams do Hard Flux damage.

2.  All missile-type weapons have infinite ammunition, to simplify concepts of play and improve balance.

3.  All Ballistic and Energy weapons have infinite ammunition, and have been balanced around same.

4.  The mod will eventually rebalance core ship stats and other things that still need tweaking.  

Through feedback, I hope to get each Vanilla weapon and ship tuned to the point where they're all relevant to average players.

I won't be adding new weapons, ships, sounds, effects or anything else to this mod that isn't code or text files unless it's 100% necessary; the goal is to tighten up Vanilla balance, one issue at a time, not to add new content.  So it will remain tiny.

The mod probably isn't compatible with mods that modify the core Vanilla weapon values, like SS+, unfortunately, but it should work with any other faction mods, etc.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: <Release> Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 2 (for 0.65.2a)
Post by: xenoargh on February 12, 2015, 09:36:44 PM
Alpha 2 has been released.

Beam Weapons:
1. Tac Laser has 800 range, buff on DPS/Flux efficiency to compensate.
2. Mining Laser is an efficient burst-beam weapon with a 3-second cooldown, to differentiate it better from the PD Laser family.  I have not tested it, so please let me know if OP / UP for cost.
3. PD Laser's DPS/Flux efficiency was buffed.
4. LRPD's range was buffed.
5. Phase Lance's DPS/Flux efficiency was buffed.  It is no longer underwater on DPS / Flux.

Energy Weapons:
6. Plasma Cannon's DPS/Flux efficiency was buffed.

Missiles:
1.  Harpoon reload timer has been tweaked downwards.
2.  Bomb timers are longer.

Ballistics:
1. LMGs and Vulcan no longer have ammo limits or clips.
2. HMG has been buffed.
3. Needlers do not have ammo limits or clips.

Systems:
1.  Fast Missile Racks now has a 15-second cooldown.

Other little tweaks that I can't be bothered to mention.  No ship changes.
Title: Re: <Release> Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 2 (for 0.65.2a)
Post by: Histidine on February 13, 2015, 05:40:19 AM
Initial impressions:

Infinite missiles probably more or less works for the other weapons, but on Reaper as implemented it's just plain silly. Being able to cast Finger of Death for just 2 OP is bad enough without being able to do it once every 30 seconds.

Annihilator Pods are also silly with the ROF (the Onslaught firing all four of them at once = most annoying sound ever. Visually awful too.) - WAIT WHAT 669 DPS AT ZERO FLUX FOR 10 OP ARE YOU SERIOUS

Hard flux beams plus the 0.65.2a extended range make Wolf on Lasher... rather ridiculous.
(If long range beams + hard flux turns out to be too good, one radical idea I came up with earlier today was to flip their roles with pulse weapons. So beams are short-ranged but have high DPS, pulse weapons are long-ranged but weak.)

May make other observations and post them later.
Title: Re: <Release> Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 2 (for 0.65.2a)
Post by: Cycerin on February 13, 2015, 05:55:23 AM
I frankly have no idea what you're trying to accomplish with many of these changes. Beams doing hard flux is inherently imbalanced, it's a binary weapon, it's either on you or not and demands little investment from the firing vessel, so when you're taking beam damage it shouldn't feel like a death sentence because it makes combat uninteresting. It also makes low-tech unable to shield, ever.

Infinite missile ammo is broken and makes missiles just like any other weapon, because you'd have to nerf the damage of most missiles, or nerf their maneuverability, cooldown between shots etc. to make them balanced, resulting in missiles that demand little interaction from the player. On many ships the main thing you do with the left mouse button is fire your kill missiles once an opportunity presents itself. With infinite harpoons, sabots, reapers etc. why not just autofire them? I think it's good that this mod exists, though, because it's a way for people to actually try out a lot of commonly voiced suggestions that sound good on paper but end up destroying the gameplay when executed.
Title: Re: <Release> Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 2 (for 0.65.2a)
Post by: Uomoz on February 13, 2015, 06:17:30 AM
As I said to DR, mods like this (and ss+ alike in certain aspects) kind of make a disservice to the game. Rebalancing vanilla assets via modification hurt the feedback on the forum on those topics (given that vanilla is still in the balancing phase), or even worst, derail good feedback into bad feedback from the different impressions you get in vanilla and in the mod. If you want balance changed in an alpha game you discuss it on the forum, instead of modding it, otherwise the whole thing pass unnoticed by the developer (because it's "fixed" elsewhere and doesn't get reported/discussed properly). 
Title: Re: <Release> Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 2 (for 0.65.2a)
Post by: Thaago on February 13, 2015, 07:15:02 AM
Thanks for putting this together. I'll give this a test later tonight (probs 12 hours or so) and report back.
Title: Re: <Release> Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 2 (for 0.65.2a)
Post by: xenoargh on February 13, 2015, 10:14:31 AM
Well, there have been three downloads, so at least one of you is venturing an opinion without actually playing it, and I'm guessing it's more like two of you, lol ;)

Honestly, if you think Vanilla's balance is great, that's fine, don't try it out :)  

Beams:
My opinion is that Beams vs. Low Tech was broken thoroughly when Tac Lasers got 1000 range.  Seriously; it killed the Hound, amongst other things.  I'm already walking it back.

Lowering the range of Beams in general, so that they're slightly lower than Ballistics in their size category, so that they cannot be used as ultra-kiting weapons (which, btw, is exactly the path Vacuum ended up walking) is on the table.  

I will probably go ahead and do that, and then we can talk about efficiency.  The problem there is going to be the same one I had with Vacuum, though; it makes it very hard to differentiate LRPD, PD, Tac and Mining Laser.  But we can go there and see.  Worst comes to worst, Small Ballistics (where the main problem is) get bumped 100 range to compensate, and then we can sort out the Mediums if there's too much practical overlap.

Missiles:
I guess I didn't nerf the Reaper enough?  I will drastically lower the Finger Of Death regen and I'll further lower the availability of same through Fast Missile Racks, which is the prime abusive squirrel case.  

I'll look at lowering the burst sizes on Annihilators as well. I never played with the Annihilator Pods, so that was just a stab in the dark.  

I actually like that they're no longer relegated to basically one-shot alpha, though, and their DPS is purely theoretical; most Annihilators don't ever hit the intended target.



In short, nothing's sacred.  I want better total balance than Vanilla currently has, where I literally am not using a lot of weapons now, and I don't mind being told that X sucks or Y is OP and I don't mind if I have to iterate for a few weeks on this to get there.  I'll get another alpha out tonight when I am done with the rest of my day, if possible.
Title: Re: <Release> Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 2 (for 0.65.2a)
Post by: Lucian Greymark on February 13, 2015, 11:00:30 AM
I'm just going to chuck my two cents in here because... well I can.

I'm all for better balancing, but this mod just screams homogenization at me; similar ranges for everything, unlimited ammo for everything, everything does hard flux damage? No, please, just, no. I love beam weapons in that they don't do hard flux damage, it requires more concentration on my part and more brink man's ship skill to balance my flux output vs whoever I'm fighting to actually achieve results.

Missiles with unlimited ammunition across the board is daft, missiles are gap filling weapons, often designed for attacks of opportunity and firing missiles should be a carefully weighed decision. The single shot crazy damage of the reaper is what makes it different from the harpoon, if you go ahead and give my reapers unlimited ammo there's no reason for me to ever buy harpoons again, especially because reapers can go on any missile slot.

In short the things that make this game interesting is the unique and varied weapons within it, that all have unique niches within the game that make them useful. As a result I'll never play this mod as it is, and if these design philosophies get taken into the core game I'll probably mod it myself to remove them.

I'd like to reiterate that I like the idea of re balancing the game, but not in this direction. Great respect to you for going on this mission, but at the moment it looks like it's going to fail.
Title: Re: <Release> Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 2 (for 0.65.2a)
Post by: xenoargh on February 13, 2015, 11:23:44 AM
I'd really like to suggest that the actual gameplay experience is completely different than what you're saying.  Until you play it out, you're just theorycrafting anyhow; the whole point of this is to get it done rather than talking about it endlessly.

Beams still don't miss.  This has always been their strong area.  The Soft Flux issue is just a sideways nerf that never really worked well and has always felt wrong.

Ballistics aren't "homogenous"; they're strongly differentiated from Energy weapons due to damage type.  This remains true.

Missiles aren't "homogenous", either; they're special-purpose weapons that don't add Flux.  They're strongly differentiated as well. 

Lastly, the infinite-ammo stuff is already a thing, because it already didn't matter much (or it mattered so much that nobody used Ballistics at all, depending on play style).  I totally agreed with Alex's choice there.

So it's mainly just about balancing around those core concepts, really; this leaves all of the weapons strongly differentiated, yet balanced, and that will make getting ship balance tightened up a much easier job as well :)
Title: Re: <Release> Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 2 (for 0.65.2a)
Post by: Dark.Revenant on February 13, 2015, 12:23:19 PM
As I said to DR, mods like this (and ss+ alike in certain aspects) kind of make a disservice to the game. Rebalancing vanilla assets via modification hurt the feedback on the forum on those topics (given that vanilla is still in the balancing phase), or even worst, derail good feedback into bad feedback from the different impressions you get in vanilla and in the mod. If you want balance changed in an alpha game you discuss it on the forum, instead of modding it, otherwise the whole thing pass unnoticed by the developer (because it's "fixed" elsewhere and doesn't get reported/discussed properly).  

SS+ doesn't even make edits like this, only numerical tweaks to make certain things a little stronger or weaker.  The biggest change is that beams do more hit penetration on bare armor, a fact that doesn't really buff the tactical laser very much but does make the phase lance a much better weapon.  And even that is being removed in favor of simply buffing the Phase Lance.
Title: Re: <Release> Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 2 (for 0.65.2a)
Post by: Velox on February 13, 2015, 02:39:06 PM
As I said to DR, mods like this (and ss+ alike in certain aspects) kind of make a disservice to the game. Rebalancing vanilla assets via modification hurt the feedback on the forum on those topics (given that vanilla is still in the balancing phase), or even worst, derail good feedback into bad feedback from the different impressions you get in vanilla and in the mod. If you want balance changed in an alpha game you discuss it on the forum, instead of modding it, otherwise the whole thing pass unnoticed by the developer (because it's "fixed" elsewhere and doesn't get reported/discussed properly). 

This is kind of true, actually - going back to vanilla (from SS+) was kind of a shock in a number of ways.  Especially the skill trees - ignore the green one and dump points into tech for burn speed, I'd forgotten that!  It's definitely interesting to be able to mod in various ideas and see how they play out in practice, and I love all the new content and interesting stuff in the higher-quality mods.  Also, it's the developer's game and I'm just playing it - I don't have any particular illusions about my forum contributions having any weight at all.  It's not like I'm an actual tester.

Still, I'm kind of conflicted now. 
Title: Re: <Release> Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 2 (for 0.65.2a)
Post by: Toxcity on February 13, 2015, 03:09:25 PM
So i've played a little bit of the mod right now, and the missile and beam changes need some work.

Harpoons are pretty much trash in this mod. While their low regen rate doesn't make them to much different than their vanilla versions, they are overshadowed by Annihilators and Sabots. Sabots low reload rate means you can use them as semi-assault weapons against frigates. They don't stand up to annihilators though. Annihilator rocket launchers allow you to block shots/beams (they don't go through missiles in this mod) and raise hard-flux for no flux cost. When used with beams, you can pretty much lock ships at high hard-flux.

With a Wolf equipped with a phaselance 3 tac-lasers, and 2 annihilator rocket launchers, I was able to kill both a Venture and Medusa (not in the same fight) in the simulator. I was also able to easily destroy a bounty with a wolf, enforcer, sunder, and hammerhead. While they were D versions, I can easily see this ship carrying me to late-midgame.

To not be completely negative, I like the changes made to ballistic PD and needlers. Keeps PD from having to be micromanaged, and lets needlers not become stuttered after a few bursts.
Title: Re: <Release> Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 2 (for 0.65.2a)
Post by: Protonus on February 13, 2015, 06:13:15 PM
As I said to DR, mods like this (and ss+ alike in certain aspects) kind of make a disservice to the game. Rebalancing vanilla assets via modification hurt the feedback on the forum on those topics (given that vanilla is still in the balancing phase), or even worst, derail good feedback into bad feedback from the different impressions you get in vanilla and in the mod. If you want balance changed in an alpha game you discuss it on the forum, instead of modding it, otherwise the whole thing pass unnoticed by the developer (because it's "fixed" elsewhere and doesn't get reported/discussed properly). 

I don't see SS+ making the Vanilla game look bad, the changes take just it in a level for new modding content to settle in much comfortably than it was. Sure, the developer won't make a pass and get changes from this mod, but that is the point of being a mod to begin, Alex did observed this mod and it doesn't necessarily affect him nor his team in continuing changes in the Vanilla game itself.

Surprisingly, the mod is quite above the demand for change, since requirements to play the mod becomes increasingly higher than the Vanilla that it would be unfashionably necessary for players to just download the game, slap the mod as if it was a requirement and play it, since:
1. Shader Lib (which is quite a lot of requirements already to start with)
2. Complexity (as the game is made out of simplicity, mods are just used to extend out of simplicity to a more immerse result)
3. Privileges (as mods begin to grow, the authenticity of being a mod itself is becoming more and more, and it simply makes it difficult for new players just to place in the mod and get used to its changes)

SS+ derailing aside, I think you just made an observation that simply filled with hate and not simply a reaction to just one mod that would just put other's incredible time-spent works to the landfill.



In addition, I'm all in the liking to test out new mods, but this mod is just simply a reaction of just been made from the recent patch, but that's what I just think of it.
Title: Re: <Release> Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 2 (for 0.65.2a)
Post by: Uomoz on February 13, 2015, 06:16:06 PM
SS+ derailing aside, I think you just made an observation that simply filled with hate and not simply a reaction to just one mod that would just put other's incredible time-spent works to the landfill.

That's a very superficial assumption, and completely off the mark, but whatever.
Title: Re: <Release> Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 2 (for 0.65.2a)
Post by: xenoargh on February 13, 2015, 08:14:03 PM
Build 3 is up.

Beams:
All Beams have shorter ranges than assault-class Ballistics / Pew-Pew Energy.  There are probably arguable values in there, but it's closer.  Tac Laser is at 650, Light AC is at 700, for example (and really more, because of fade-out shots).

This includes a debuff to the Graviton Beam's range, but its efficiency went up a little bit.

HIL lost 100 range, gained 100 DPS, putting it where (imho) it should be- King of the Lasers, efficiency-wise.

This also included rework of the PD, LRPD and Mining Laser to try and find them niches.  I have no idea whether their performance is reasonable yet, but it's starting to feel sane.

Missiles:
Reload speeds on Reapers, Annihilators and Sabots have been debuffed.  Annihilator Pods have been fixed to launch at .2 per launch like their smaller cousins, but have a faster recycle time.

Other smallish tweaks include taking out the clip reloads on the remaining missiles that were still using same.  So Harpoons are burst-fire only now.  That may or may not be a good thing, flavor-wise; let's play it and see.

Ballistics:
All ranges have been buffed a little bit upwards to keep in line with Beam changes.

Energy:
Buffed range on the Plasma Cannon, per suggestions made in Megas' thread.  I still think that the better DPS/Flux efficiency is fully justified, but I'll dial that back when it's been playtested some, if there is disagreement.

I would like to hear some constructive feedback on where to go with pew-pew vs. the heavies (the Blaster series).  Methinks that pew-pew gets a range buff putting it slightly over par vs. Ballistics, but less efficient, DPS/Flux wise.  So it's more about light kiting and interceptions than it is now, but it's not seriously OP because you only get reasonable efficiency when most of the shots are hitting.  

I think that the AM Blaster is reasonably balanced right now, personally, but I haven't used it much.  The 15-second cycle time is longer than it used to be, and I rarely used all 20 shots on it, ever, unless I was trying to use a Medusa to solo a big fleet, which isn't terribly practical any more, with CR timers.

Thoughts?

Systems:
Fast Missile Racks timer has been set to 120 seconds, i.e. you can use it twice on a Frigate before getting into CR attenuation.  So it's a special buff, not a magical way to turn a Vigilance into a death-machine.

Settings:
Zoom range is now 2.5; large enough to aim anything that isn't a Tachyon Lance without feeling cramped and a more realistic sense of the battle-space.
Title: Re: <Release> Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 3 (for 0.65.2a)
Post by: xenoargh on February 13, 2015, 11:13:42 PM
Played for a bit tonight, thinking through the next steps. 

Right now, Advanced Optics is a major buff; 200 SU puts Tac Lasers into the Medium range bands, and puts the Graviton Beam back into the Large range bands, at 950, and the HIL is at 1100, putting it up there with everything except the Gauss.  It's about the only thing that will make a beam-boat Wolf really work well as a kite-machine in this alpha, vs. other stuff, but it works.

So I'm not sure whether to debuff it to 100 SU or make it cost more OPs or to leave it alone, yet.  I think that I'm leaning towards 100 SU; then it's useful, but not quite so ubiquitous.  I don't think the right answer is to peel Beam range back, personally; PD / LRPD are about where they really need to be, in order to be relevant and different, imo.

Ballistics in general still seem like they might need a bit more range to push them to where they need to be vs. Beams, but it's close to working.  I will try the 100 SU change to Advanced Optics and see if that fixes that impression.

Will definitely have to look hard at pew-pew when I get done looking at that issue; I never really used them much in Vanilla, frankly, other than occasionally using the Autopulse (but then largely if nothing better was around or the ship had HEF). 

I also have no idea whether Atropos sucks atm or not; I suspect it's OP at current regen but I haven't found any in the game... darn u, Tritachyon, you're the worst arms-dealers evar :P

I do feel much better about the missiles in general this round, though.  They're probably not "done", but they're starting to be in the "arguably OK" range.

They're a very valid part of the battle, and their burst damage is very valuable, but they aren't the end-all-be-all, serious PD can handle big barrages still, and a combined-arms approach is working quite nicely.

Oh, and!  The cutest thing in 0.65, imo, was the new drone tender; it's not terrifically useful in Vanilla, but it's quite useful atm, now that the Mining Lasers have some teeth.

Anyhow, further constructive input from people who have actually played this Alpha would be appreciated; it's very helpful to me to hear where the weak spots are when I'm doing this kind of rough-cut rebal :)
Title: Re: <Release> Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 3 (for 0.65.2a)
Post by: xenoargh on February 14, 2015, 12:50:03 PM
OK, it appears that the Advanced Optics debuff worked pretty well.  It's still valuable, but not an obvious win, past early game.

So now it's down to marginal buff / debuff, I think; the main themes appear to be working without anything being very obviously OP, in terms of Beams / Ballistics in general. 

I need to look at the pew-pew guns now and get them in line.  Getting closer, though :)

Title: Re: <Release> Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 3 (for 0.65.2a)
Post by: Histidine on February 14, 2015, 04:47:58 PM
I always considered it a bit odd that Advanced Optics isn't percentage-based.
Title: Re: <Release> Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 3 (for 0.65.2a)
Post by: xenoargh on February 14, 2015, 06:35:23 PM
Yeah, that and the OP bonuses, where it really should be math.max(<bonus>,1.0).  It has always bugged me that that doesn't work like it should.

The problem with the percentage on Advanced Optics is that it stretches the long-ranged ones quite a lot; 10% would mean that the Tac Laser got 715, rather than 750 after this last change, but HIL would go to 990.  The higher the percentage goes, the worse it gets.

Really, there is no simple win on that; 100 means that it can be consistent, though, and I can adjust around it.  200 felt like too much, though.  Anyhow, I'm about done with the latest changes; it's basically just that and tweaking the ranges on the pew-pew.  Not sure that's working quite right yet.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 4
Post by: xenoargh on February 16, 2015, 11:17:15 AM
Alpha 4 is now available.

Ballistic Weapons:
Fixed bug with LMG.

Energy Weapons:
Increased ranges for IR Pulse and Pulse Lasers.

Hull Mods:
Advanced Optics only gives 100 SU now.

Skills/Aptitudes:
Technology Aptitude gives +1 OP, flat, per level, plus 1% per level.
Mechanical Engineering and Computer Systems gives +1 OP, flat, per level, plus 1% per level.

Other:
Now in JAR format (all source is included though, as usual for my work).

This pretty much fixed up pew-pew, other than looking at Flux/DPS and flavor.  Missiles feel pretty good to me at this point, balance-wise; they're present and deadly, but they aren't completely dominant and other things can compete.

I feel like the overall balance is really starting to firm up here; there are a few areas where I think it can be tightened but it's not bad.  I'd like to get some more opinions before I start looking at ship balance issues.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 4
Post by: Ahne on February 16, 2015, 11:49:18 AM
Sorry but really thats the worst "rebalance" mod i have seen so far for starsector.

At the moment i read about infinite ammo for missles i stopped taking this rebalance stuff serious.
The simple idea is just silly why would you do that.

I can't even..what the.. i give up.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 4
Post by: xenoargh on February 16, 2015, 12:01:41 PM
That was a core game-design decision made by Alex; I'm just trying to make it balanced and consistent :)

Anyhow, since you clearly haven't played it, I'd suggest doing so for a couple of hours, then come back to the conversation.  If X is OP, let's hear about how it works in practice, rather than "I am sure X is OP because... well, because", which is not a good way to balance anything :)
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 4
Post by: Thaago on February 16, 2015, 01:31:59 PM
...
Skills/Aptitudes:
Technology Aptitude gives +1 OP, flat, per level, plus 1% per level.
Mechanical Engineering and Computer Systems gives +1 OP, flat, per level, plus 1% per level.
...

I see what you're doing here, but I don't think it will work without fractional OP. This would give a Wolf or Lasher 95 OP at level 10, a 90% increase (which will probably make the ships something like 4 times more deadly). I honestly think +30% OP at level 10 is ok.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 4
Post by: xenoargh on February 16, 2015, 02:16:01 PM
From what I've seen thus far, in practical play... it really doesn't move the dial much, in late-game Bounty engagements vs. Combat / Tech 10 opponents.

I may be wrong there; I'm not using a Frigate horde strat in testing atm, I went Tech/Combat first.  I'll test that and see. 

Honestly, I don't expect much change; most of the things you can shoehorn into a Frigate with a 50-point difference in OPs are player-useful, but not of massive benefit to an AI-piloted Frigate.  I guess the question is whether one-ship-at-a-time solo creeps back in, but thus far, that's not what I'm seeing here- the missile changes more-or-less put a final end to that as a thing, because it really increased the importance of having buddies and overlapping PD.

Really, I think that where this question gets interesting is what happens to Destroyers and Cruisers, where that margin really has helped them to stay relevant.  Not quite solo-Medusa-vs-Defense-Fleet levels of relevant, but "useful in their conceptual roles" relevant, for sure.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 4
Post by: Thaago on February 16, 2015, 03:08:08 PM
Is the AI even using the extra OP? I don't know whether AI variants will fill up OP or if its all just wasted.

If nothing else, the 30 extra OP means that the vents and caps will be at 20 each (from the other tech skills) and augmented engines gives a 40 speed boost. Thats on top of the extra 30% OP.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 4
Post by: Toxcity on February 16, 2015, 06:34:38 PM
So I've played some of the new version and it still needs some work.

The starter wolf is still powerful (mostly the phase lance and the fact that your fighting (D) ships), but has been reigned in by the beam range changes. The only thing is that Advanced Optics doesn't feel worth it with a 100 flat range increase. Maybe change it back to 200 and make beams generate more flux?

Eventually I switched out the wolf for an Afflictor and a Hermes.

One thing with the missile changes in this version, is that it makes playing with a non-phase ship seem impossible. Enemies would release their harpoons as soon as they were in range / the cooldown was up. This was especially noticeable in larger bounties, where cruisers could have 3 harpoon pods, and there could be multiple destroyers with harpoon racks.

Annihilators are also still ridiculous despite their speed decrease. Maybe try reducing the number fired per burst from 20 to 10 or back to 5.

Also regarding missiles is the fact that harpoon racks cost 10 OP now. They're not even that great considering that their burst fire and cooldown mean that you might waste them overkilling a frigate, and not be able to use them to break a heavier ships armor.

If you want to do regenerating missiles I recommend you change them to not all use the same method as the salamander in vanilla. There are standard ammo regeneration and clips, use them! It would even give Expanded Missile Racks a purpose.

There are also some non missile related problems too. For one, the LAG has better DPS than the Assault Chaingun. While the chaingun has 200 more range, the LAG generates less flux and has better accuracy. PD weapons like the Dual Flak Cannon also have a pretty long-range, which while it isn't a complete negative, it means they may waste flux that would be better used on more offensive weapons. Maybe decrease their range, or make them PD-ONLY.

Despite all this, I recommend people try out the mod! Diverse feedback will only make it better.

EDIT: This was played with version 1.2a so some of this may not be relevant.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 4
Post by: xenoargh on February 16, 2015, 10:04:04 PM
Quote
Is the AI even using the extra OP? I don't know whether AI variants will fill up OP or if its all just wasted.
Not yet; rebal on that has to await a general feeling that the balance is reasonable.  That said, some of the AI ships in high-end Bounties probably aren't actually "fair" in any real sense, plus they're being flown by maxed-skills Captains.

Quote
The starter wolf is still powerful (mostly the phase lance and the fact that your fighting (D) ships), but has been reigned in by the beam range changes. The only thing is that Advanced Optics doesn't feel worth it with a 100 flat range increase. Maybe change it back to 200 and make beams generate more flux?
I'm actually looking at another way to equalize it, by making ITU / DTC apply to Beam ranges.  This appears to work pretty well, but the issue is what it's doing to Destroyer / Frigate range bands; right now, DTC means 35/50% more range for the biggest ships; it might be healthier if ITU gives a flat 25% and DTC gives only 30/35%, giving Cruisers and capital ships a small, but not overwhelming, range advantage, especially as they're mounting more Medium / Large weapons that really push it out.  I'm still testing these ideas, but it appears to me that this keeps Beams in the game as meaningful players.  Advanced Optics might come down in OP cost a little, or Beam efficiency might go up a little, too; those ideas are on the table.  I'm finding Beams are, at the high end, playing an important, but not dominant, role with this change thus far; they're support and they can kill, but they aren't primary assault, but are pressure weapons that can put a foe in a position where they have to drop shields to free up enough Flux to survive missile strikes, which is an interesting dynamic.  Anyhow, not done evaluating that yet.

Quote
This was played with version 1.2a so some of this may not be relevant.
Yeah, I nerfed the Annihilators, changed the Harpoon mechanics and a bunch of other nerf / buff in Alpha 3; I think that fixed a lot of the worst suck there.  That said, I don't think it's a done deal; if Annihilators still need to be peeled back, I'm open to it; I just think that it's much closer to reasonable atm- missiles feel like they're dangerous, but not overwhelming, and Harpoons are definitely in the mix.

Quote
Despite all this, I recommend people try out the mod! Diverse feedback will only make it better.
Agreed, that's the whole point :)

Quote
One thing with the missile changes in this version, is that it makes playing with a non-phase ship seem impossible. Enemies would release their harpoons as soon as they were in range / the cooldown was up. This was especially noticeable in larger bounties, where cruisers could have 3 harpoon pods, and there could be multiple destroyers with harpoon racks.
Well, most of the changes Alex has been making are aimed, to some degree, at pushing people out of soloing whole fleets; I'm generally running with an early-game fleet of 2-3 Frigates and a Destroyer, then I transitioned to Destroyers with a Cruiser and a couple of Frigates to cap points; now I'm running a battleship with a Cruiser escort. 

One thing that is a little messed up, from where I sit, is how much you have to give up, in terms of Logistics costs, to get a single battleship with a single escort that matters.  Even though battleships are all quite awesome, I think Thaago's points about relative costs are important there, in terms of final adjustments.  For example, I can look hard at the relative efficiency / DPS of Large weapons, where they're primarily operating in ranges smaller vessels can't touch, but are Battleships a buy, vs. just smacking out tons of missiles from a Frigate swarm?  I don't have a firm answer on that atm.

Anyhow, I'll go look at a new start and make sure it's still feeling reasonable. 

I think it'll work, so long as you aren't biting off more than you can chew; the Wolf, in human hands, ought to be able to take on at least two-three AI Frigates (more, if they're crap, like (D) Hounds, etc.) without much trouble.  The issue here may be largely that the so-called "easy" start is actually not working terribly well right now; that is a fixable issue, though.  I've been thinking about that but I want to solve the core issues first.

I'm pretty much at the late midgame stage in my current playthrough, so I've seen everything up to AI Onslaughts with max buffs; things like the rocket launchers don't look terribly scary then, compared to the other scary things.  One thing that definitely occurs to me over and over again with the current changes, though, is that I really miss the Hephag from Vacuum, where it was a high-end Dual Flak, rather than being just another HE gun that has always seemed a bit lost in the shuffle.  I don't think changing its role that dramatically would be within the goals of this project, though.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 5
Post by: xenoargh on February 18, 2015, 10:00:38 AM
Alpha 5 has been released.

Energy Weapons:
Small tweaks to ranges and a few other things.
Last of the ammo / clip mechanics have been dropped, including for Pulse Lasers like the Guardian (we'll see how that goes, but thus far, it isn't scary).

Ballistic Weapons:
Arbalest has been given a distinctive role as a hard-hitting, slow-firing Kinetic AC.
Ammunition / Clip mechanics are gone, other than the LMG/HMGs (and probably the Needlers will get into that category after further testing).
Small range tweaks here and there.

Missile Weapons:
Swarmers, Atropos and Hurricane got their reload nerfed.  Hurricane might need to get pushed back, but we'll see.
Annhilators do 15 rockets per burst now, so they require a little more focus to be deadly.

Hull Mods:
Stabilized Shields is now an 85%, not 50%, Flux reduction for shields that are on.  This means that it is always a win vs. more Vents, for that very specific cost.
Integrated Targeting Unit and Dedicated Targeting Core both boost Beam ranges now.  Advanced Optics range boost is still 100 SU; this works out, I think, allowing Beams to be in range but not Ultimate Doomsday Kiting weapons.
Title: Re: [0.65.2aRC2] Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 6
Post by: xenoargh on February 18, 2015, 11:56:21 PM
Alpha 6 has been released.

Ballistic Weapons:
Thumper's behavior is now sane.  Oops!
Arbalest has been buffed, and is now effective in its role.

Missiles:
Cosmetic improvements to the Atropos' projectile.

Gameplay:
The population sizes for Jangala, Tibacena have been raised, to 6.  It is pretty ridiculous that the most-powerful faction in the game has a capital with fewer people than my hometown does, 200 years after the Fall.
Volturn's population is now 7, befitting it's status as the most Earth-like planet in the current Sector.  It also has more Aquaculture / Volturnian Lobster production (although it's being done in a cruddy way atm; I will fix that with code properly later).  This doesn't necessarily make it completely able to feed itself, but it's no longer a nonsensical basket case (seriously, after 2 centuries, everybody who was going to starve to death on a world where you can go fishing to stay alive... is dead already).  It keeps large_refugee_population and all the negatives, so it's still unstable, just not starving all the time.
Sindria is no longer affected by large_refugee_population, so it will be more stable.
Tibacena is now a Regional Capital, making it more stable.  Expect to actually be able to find some Tritachyon stuff to buy now.


Philosophical Stuff about the next steps, if you're interested
Spoiler
Core Gameplay:
I think that the first job, of getting all of the core weapons reasonably balanced and differentiated without creating any huge loopholes, is largely done at this point.  There are arguable issues here and there, but it's feeling pretty decent.  There are things where I really would like to see more fundamental change, like how the Hephag in Vacuum was the high-end AOE Flak, not just a mildly-duplicative HE gun that used a Large Slot, but that's a big deal and I'm not sure if that stays in the scope of the project.  Anyhow, I'm reasonably happy thus far; having learned all the hard-way lessons the first time, with Vacuum, there hasn't been a bunch of power-creep this time.

So, now it's time to look at the ships while continuing to screw down the places where weapon balance can still be improved. 

Where to start is a bit of a puzzler, but probably I need to work Frigates upwards.  They and Destroyers have gotten more relevant with the changes in their total OPs from Tech, which is great, but they're still having some fundamental problems here and there.

For example, the poor Hound is basically a two-trick pony, and neither of them involve using the Chain Gun- it can use a Heavy Mauler or a Hypervelocity Driver and be relevant as an annoying kiting ship that you cannot ignore and cannot kill easily.  But the single turret is a huge liability and its System is a complete joke.  I think the Hound is weaker now than it's ever been, and that sucks (imo) because it's one of the classic designs of the game.  I'm thinking it needs a 360 turret so that it's missile defense isn't zero, and a System that helps it rather than feeling like a consolation prize for breathing.  There are a bunch of ways to skin that cat.

That's just one example. 

While I'd say that there aren't a ton of ships that I feel are totally worthless, and some have improved to the point where they are serious contenders now, there are a few where I'm going to look at them, now that I'm feeling that weapons are getting close to a reasonable balance overall.

For example, the Hammerhead still kind of sucks, compared to the Medusa and the Enforcer; it is weaker both on offense and defense, and weaker on offense than the Sunder (although, personally, I think the Sunder got a little too nerfed by Alex's changes to its Flux pool / Vent).  How to make it better is probably a combination of things- perhaps it gets Burn 5 and a smallish armor buff?  It doesn't need a lot to be relevant; just enough of a difference that people are genuinely torn between it and something obviously sexy.

The other major core stuff that I need to evaluate is Hull Mods that are essentially useless or detrimental to play now, like Expanded Missile Racks and the ammo buffs and the Systems that are pretty iffy now. 

I feel like Fast Missile Racks is balanced pretty well, now that it's a true save-it-for-the-right-time buff, but there are others where I'm not so happy.

Campaign Gameplay:
I'd like to talk about the Independents.  I'm a bit torn about what's going on with them atm, and probably should leave changes to them off the table, but it's driving me a bit crazy to see how they're implemented.  Right now, Pirates transmogrify into Independents when they "change flags", rather than taking on a true false flag.  There is no way for players to blow their cover or deal with them in any meaningful way without getting into huge relationship trouble with the "real" Independents.  This is one of those things where it's obviously placeholder and I'm kind of torn, because it's relatively easy to address but it's going to get wrecked whenever Alex gets around to an official fix.

Moreover, there is nowhere where there is a big enough / stable-enough market for Independent goods to generate, meaning certain types of ships aren't really showing up in markets.  This is also an obvious problem with Tritachyon as well, but hopefully the Tibacena change fixed that.

There are also a bunch of issues with how the markets work, that really cannot be fixed with anything but code.  I'm very leery of getting into that side of things until Alex's stuff is more stable, though, and I feel like this is an iffy task when I'm just trying to get balance tuned a little better.  I may just let things slide.
[close]
Title: Re: [0.65.2aRC2] Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 6
Post by: Ahne on February 21, 2015, 06:03:06 AM
...and i thought you made the decision to take away all ammunition from missles only in your rebalance mod...but it was alex core game design decision holy cow,not cool.

I will try your mod out and i really hope it works out to be balanced, i mean, missles were broken as *** and to imagine that there is no ammunition shortage is hilarious. I have no idea how to deal with that, missle are so op. I hope its balanced...
Title: Re: [0.65.2aRC2] Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 6
Post by: xenoargh on February 21, 2015, 05:40:15 PM
Yeah, I'm just working with the basic premise. 

If missiles are OP in the mod, that's something that can be fixed, and I want to know if you find things you think aren't working; right now, I think that they're working fairly well, but I'm open to further nerfs if it's necessary.  People's feedback helps me get the balance right. 

I've fixed a couple of the things that were still screwy, like the HMG's DPS, and a couple of other things like that already.

Anyhow, I'm working on translating my Vacuum Ship / Autofire AIs to an AI that is compatible with Vanilla ships and balance concepts and acts in a similar way.  I don't know whether that belongs in this mod or whether I'll just make a companion mod for this that allows players to use those things.  It adds a lot of options, in terms of things that can be done to address core challenges.

It's mainly done, although I'm still working on some of the details and am refining the rough edges.  It does most of the things Vanilla's AI does, like dodge missiles, dodge other ships more properly, etc., already.
Title: Re: [0.65.2aRC2] Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 6
Post by: xenoargh on March 01, 2015, 02:59:36 PM
OK, the re-write of the Frigate-class AI and other AIs to support Vanilla SS play is just about done.  I need to get the AI variants working properly with Vanilla again to explicitly support AI Hull Mods, etc., so that those features are available.

I'm pretty excited about this; we're going to finally have a general-purpose Vanilla-compatible AI for modders to mess with that basically acts like Vanilla's AI, and it makes supporting some future releases simpler as well.

Anyhow, it'll probably be packaged as a secondary-mod release with this one, so that people who just want the AIs can do that and vice-versa.  I think I'm just about done with the weapon rebal stuff.

Title: Re: [0.65.2aRC2] Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 6
Post by: Lucian Greymark on March 05, 2015, 09:26:45 PM
Ok, So I decided to give this a shot just to see if yanno, I was talking out of my arse or not. And it turns out I wasn't, for the sake of experiment I tried a fairly straight forward built enforcer with 3 thumpers, 2 autocannons and 4 reapers.

Turns out with a bit of skillshot practise the enforcer can no apply constant and effective pressure (in the simulator with no appreciable leveling up done) to an onslaught with the infinitely regenerating reapers. Once I bought a second enforcer, and then a third, it became quite easy to go into a battle, fire a volley of 12 reapers at whatever was bothering me, kill it (obviously) and then back off for a while before going in to kill the next thing

When I got 5 enforcers with the same build I was able to wipe out an entire sdf, though as usual my game crashed after doing so -.-

Point is, remove unlimited reapers. it's really, really over powered.
Title: Re: [0.65.2aRC2] Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 6
Post by: xenoargh on March 06, 2015, 11:33:29 AM
There are a lot of ways to nerf Reapers. 

I kind of enjoy the danger when the AI uses them, especially Daggers, but I agree that it can get pretty silly when the player is using them in masses.

It probably doesn't need the ammo taken away, though.  Perhaps it should be made slower, so more PD can focus, or have the damage reduced, or have fewer hitpoints.  I doubt if it needs much, in the way of changes, before it tips back over the weird see-saw from being pretty ubiquitous to very squirrel-case again- useful for point-blank barrages but not much else, pretty much like they used to be.  That does leave questions about the Dagger

I'll give it a go and see what can work :)
Title: Re: [0.65.2aRC2] Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 6
Post by: Lucian Greymark on March 07, 2015, 02:23:21 PM
At the moment the weapon is already slow and fragile enough that firing one of them requires a great deal of skill to land it without the enemy dodging or shooting it down. If you change that any more the weapon will be forced into the 'can only be used in masses in the hope something hits' category

It's also expensive enough as it is, and fielding one on a ship is costly enough, any more and they'll just not be useful entirely.

It also does exactly the right amount of damage, combined with it's speed and durability it's a one shot heavy torpedo designed for strikes of opportunity. And that's what it should remain, instead of a (slow reloading) infinite fire shotgun that one shots many ships with a volley. Just make them a one shot disposable. Or, if you really really want them to have unlimited ammo, make the reload time over 2 minutes so that they may as well be 1 shot.
Title: Re: [0.65.2aRC2] Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 6
Post by: xenoargh on March 07, 2015, 05:10:14 PM
I can go that route; that puts them into a category where they're only "reloading" if you're in a capship duel... or have torpedo bombers.

Anyhow, I've gotten done with most of the AI port.  The AI is nastier than Vanilla's at this point, at least against my play-style.  I wish it wasn't taking so long to get it done; I'm really interested to see how people react to it.
Title: Re: [0.65.2aRC2] Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 6
Post by: Solinarius on October 28, 2015, 04:21:05 PM
I'm curious if you're planning to work on this anymore. I like being able to play around with hard flux on the beams, but I can't say I like the idea of non-assault particle weapons being shorter than 800, just for the sake of balance. It just doesn't feel right to me. This is mostly because I can't get over my love for Freespace 2's incarnation of badass, high-powered particle weapons (and other similar examples). SS's beams-as-fire-support theme has always felt weird to me.

The above said, I'd like to suggest a new angle (if possible): make it so that beams cause less damage the further they travel, lower the percentage of hard flux that beams can cause, give them their long range back, and double (possibly more) their damage and flux (from vanilla). My philosophy in the base game is that it doesn't matter how much damage you give beams (with the exception of completely silly numbers, which break the AI) as long as you raise flux equally or higher. Beams are a little funner when the cycle is sped up, in my opinion.

:edit: I was mostly referring to the Tac Laser and HIL.