Fractal Softworks Forum

Starsector => General Discussion => Topic started by: cp252 on November 09, 2014, 11:52:48 PM

Title: UI is way too obtuse
Post by: cp252 on November 09, 2014, 11:52:48 PM
Aha, nice rage inducing thread title.
Okay, let me make this clear first: Starsector's (I'll always call it Starfarer in my heart) complexity is what sets it apart from superficially similar space combat games like SPAZ. It's the reason I still have the shortcut on my desktop after more than a year of periodic cleanup, though I haven't come back and played in a while.

Here's the issue I'm having. Since the game has gained so many core features and significant rebalances since I've last played, I've got a bit of a noob perspective on things now.

I don't get any of it.

I'm reading the balance discussions and I'm intrigued at all the different stats weapons have and I can't tell which weapon has what anymore. They're meaningless numbers, and I don't think every new player would spend hours in simulation trying to work it out.

Also, it's been mentioned in depth before but outside of combat I am completely lost. Trade is incomprehensible.

Perhaps some UI work needs to be done on all sides? Take burn for example. It needs to be a kot more obvious when a particular ship is affecting your burn speed. I thought the shepherd was a fast carrier until someone pointed out it was too slow to keep up with a frigate fleet. Maybe a little bar in the fleet menu with sprites of your ships arranged along it like they're running a race? So I can instantly see who's fast an who's dragging their feet. That kid of thing. Side by side comparison interface would be nice too, like seeing a selected ship in the tooltip next to whatever ship you're pointing the cursor at, for easy comparison.

-typed on mobile, sorry for mistakes
Title: Re: Game is way too complex
Post by: cp252 on November 09, 2014, 11:54:58 PM
Oh, one more thing.
Maybe an intel thread would be nice too. A brief one-sentence description of the weapons of the game as the community sees them- which ships are useful for what, what they shouldn't be used for, etc. to a new player all ships and weapons are just pretty pictures right now.
Title: Re: Game is way too complex
Post by: Maniaks on November 10, 2014, 12:49:55 AM
Remember you can hover your mouse over any thing in UI you don't understand!

Hover mouse over your burn meter. It's written there very clear:
your total fleet burn = burn speed of slowest ship
It's that simple.

That ship comparison for burn speed is already there in it's info tooltip when you expand it (hover mouse -> press F1)
it shows it like:
ship X: 9
ship Y: 8
ship Z: 1
(your result burn = 1)

Weapons aren't complex at all. The flux mechanic is pretty simple, firing builds up flux (fancy way for heat in space) and blocking shots with shield also builds up flux. Again, if you don't know what "energy" weapon means just hover mouse over it's icon in weapon stats screen. Maybe the only thing that isn't explained is that weapon's listed flux cost already includes and calculates it's fire rate, flux per shot and/or charges.

Complete ship comparison you suggested would be awesome, there is a bit too many aspects of every ship that i have had a hard time "memorizing" stats when comparing them. I remember it was a pain to compare ships when i started to play starsector and there was even less stats back then =D
Title: Re: Game is way too complex
Post by: Gothars on November 10, 2014, 02:15:47 AM
Admittedly... I have to agree the complexity is verging on being problematic. I did need quite of bit time to understand every of the more intricate mechanics (combat/flux, CR/fleet management, trade/intel), and that was while I had the time to master one before the next was introduced. I can imagine having to learn all of them at once being overwhelming.

But since Starsector is, as you said, great because it is complex, better presentation seems the only way to go here. I'm sure Alex is aware of it, since he's constantly working on it. To know what has to be done is not to know how exactly it has to be done though, and the real difficulty lies there.

Mh...


I tend to agree that the heap of numbers is terrible for ship comparison. Though, I'm not sure that any UI could even remotely compare to simulator/fight experience with the ships. Combat is just way to multi-faceted and context dependent. So... give up on being comprehensive. The only way I can think of to really make this more approachable, is to reduce the UI complexity so much it becomes downright misleading. That is, give ships a few classification numbers and hide everything else behind a "more info" click. Like this:

Tempest:
Combat rating: 8
Logistic rating: 4
Burn speed: 6

Tarsus:
Combat rating: 2
Logistic rating: 7
Burn speed: 4

(1-10 could be the vanilla range, with potential for mods to be rated higher/lower. Maybe also include crew/freight/fuel.)

I think it is OK when a number is somewhat misleading/oversimplifying (which is has to be when the ratings are auto-generated), as long as the game is honest about it and doesn't claim/imply perfection.




I  also had the idea of tutorial courses within the game, offered on certain markets, that you can enroll in. So, for example, you enroll in a trade school and get all the trade related tutorial pop-ups. Or you find a smuggling tutorial on a pirate station. Same with fleet management and later features. That way you would not be spammed with tutorials that you presently don't care for, and you could repeat them at an time. In this context the game could also go more into the underlying principles, like that the trade is event based, not routine based.
Title: Re: Game is way too complex
Post by: WKOB on November 10, 2014, 02:21:42 AM
This is... interesting. I don't mean to call you guys dumb or anything, but I don't see it. I mean, every statistic is so self explanatory.
Title: Re: Game is way too complex
Post by: ValkyriaL on November 10, 2014, 02:34:54 AM
Considering iv'e played this game for 2-3 years and know more or less every stat and description on everything in my head, i usually rage at people saying the game is to complex, but...it really is, there is SO much stuff you have to cover and remember, even with the countless lists and windows explaining mechanics to you in a way that a 6 year old would understand, its simply to much to cover in the space of a week or a month.

just give it time.  :)
Title: Re: Game is way too complex
Post by: Gothars on November 10, 2014, 02:37:45 AM
Quote from: Austupaio on November 10, 2014, 02:21:42 AM
I mean, every statistic is so self explanatory.

Right, but its context, and thus what it does ultimately mean, can only be gauged with a lot of experience.
Title: Re: Game is way too complex
Post by: Regularity on November 10, 2014, 04:39:33 AM
Quote from: Gothars on November 10, 2014, 02:37:45 AM
Right, but its context, and thus what it does ultimately mean, can only be gauged with a lot of experience.

As someone who picked up the game less than a week ago, I found the tutorial to cover the basics of combat pretty well. Although its worth noting the tutorial doesn't cover non-combat gameplay very well -- but then again, non-combat tutorials tend to be painstakingly slow-paced, so it's something many of us would prefer to read about from the manual or in-game tooltips as needed.

But all in all, the learning curve for this game was MUCH more gentle than I had come to expect from most space sims. But that's just my anecdotal experience, and may differ for other players.
Title: Re: Game is way too complex
Post by: Newnonel on November 10, 2014, 05:03:56 AM
I learnt my way from getting blown up repeatedly.
Title: Re: Game is way too complex
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on November 10, 2014, 06:30:14 AM
I kinda agree with the OP... For those of us that have had the ability to learn the mechanics slowly through the releases, it is fine. But for those that jump into it all at once, it can be overwhelming. Case in point: My friend recently bought this game and the first thing he did was click on the codex. He, of course, got hit with all of the info on the ships at once and was intimidated by all of it (IE. Information overload) I helped him by writing up a SS "dictionary" of sorts
Title: Re: Game is way too complex
Post by: WKOB on November 10, 2014, 06:32:25 AM
So maybe he should play the tutorial and play the game a little by doing some simple frigate on frigate battles instead of getting "information overload" by opening the entire compendium of... information. I'm just saying, the game is not complex at all, take a ship, hold shift and left click at an enemy. In many battles, this can win it for you. Particulary if you're in a Wolf versus a Cerberus for example.
Title: Re: Game is way too complex
Post by: JohnDoe on November 10, 2014, 06:44:01 AM
Quote from: Austupaio on November 10, 2014, 02:21:42 AM
This is... interesting. I don't mean to call you guys dumb or anything, but I don't see it. I mean, every statistic is so self explanatory.

Not really. How better is a ship with 400 armor rating than one with 200 armor rating? Is a 200 base flux dissipation rate considered good or average for a frigate? It's not explained intuitively in the UI.
Title: Re: Game is way too complex
Post by: Maniaks on November 10, 2014, 07:09:56 AM
Quote from: JohnDoe on November 10, 2014, 06:44:01 AM
Quote from: Austupaio on November 10, 2014, 02:21:42 AM
This is... interesting. I don't mean to call you guys dumb or anything, but I don't see it. I mean, every statistic is so self explanatory.

Not really. How better is a ship with 400 armor rating than one with 200 armor rating? Is a 200 base flux dissipation rate considered good or average for a frigate? It's not explained intuitively in the UI.

This is learned in 10 minutes of combat (lets say tutorial) when damage is greatly represented in game with colored numbers. About considering if a frigate is good or average, in my opinion this is something you should find out yourself by playing and exploring the game.

For me only thing that can be confusing currently is the combat readiness because i find it quite an original mechanic not found in many games. It's not that hard once you learn it though.
Title: Re: Game is way too complex
Post by: cp252 on November 10, 2014, 07:17:34 AM
Yes yes, all these things -can- be learned. My primary concern is that the game is a mass of spreadsheets. While those of us who already understand the game mechanics and have a feel for the ships can say 'just play', that's way too much to expect from most new players and it's not a good thing if you want to attract players at all.
As it is now, whenever there's a balancing run I have to spend hours in sim fiddling and relearning, and I already know the mechanics. Imagine if you were new!
Plus, there's no way to embrace and learn the whole system and spectrum of equipment at once. You discover bits and pieces of new things as you go and they're all an unidentifiable blur to a new player, who might quickly give up after a point because he's hunting the same old small fleets and can't figure out what to optimise in order to improve.
With certain complex games (I'll take pokemon) there's big, complete wikis to help. Bulbapedia, to use pokemon as an example. The community does its part to nurture new players while the developer builds the game. We don't even have a brief list of what each mysterious weapon and ship is good for and why.
Yes, you could tell a new player to just learn to read the spreadsheets / learn from painful experience but not everyone will have the patience for that, and I don't want to see this beautifully complex game which Alex has worked so hard on to be forgotten or dismissed because of a huge, boring barrier to entry.

Edit: to simplify and clarify. This game's depth and complexity is one of its greatest strengths. It just needs to be properly presented in UI so the cliff-like learning curve doesn't turn potential fans away.

I also think the community could help a lot with that, by collating your combined wisdom- say, when it comes to the relative usefulness of ships. This would also let Alex see quickly if a particular ship, weapon or hullmod needs to be toned down or buffed.
Title: Re: Game is way too complex
Post by: Histidine on November 10, 2014, 07:37:04 AM
Personally, I think that if you play Starsector (at least the combat part; people are going to naturally try a spreadsheet approach to trade at first because that's how they assume it works) and have to touch a spreadsheet at any point prior to the grognardy optimise-all-the-things stage, you did something seriously wrong somewhere. The campaign's current unforgiving nature makes trial and error a costly proposition, but there are also missions, and you still don't need to touch any spreadsheets.

A practical example: What should I put on my Lasher; dual autocannon, railgun or light needler? Now, to be sure, someone presented with all three choices at once may instinctively try to figure out which of the three is best. But the fact is for the purposes of basic combat you can get away with just eyeballing the stats and picking the one you think might be most useful; they all fill the same general role in a comparable manner. Besides, the store probably only sells the basic autocannon. Later, when the player has figured out more of the game and picked up some bigger guns, they can go back and see if they can improve their build further based on what they've learned.

Quote from: cp252 on November 10, 2014, 07:17:34 AM
With certain complex games (I'll take pokemon) there's big, complete wikis to help. Bulbapedia, to use pokemon as an example. The community does its part to nurture new players while the developer builds the game. We don't even have a brief list of what each mysterious weapon and ship is good for and why.
Starsector wiki (http://starsector.wikia.com/)
Not entirely complete (Trade page Coming Soon™), but, well, it's a wiki - you know what to do.

That said, I think it'd be worthwhile to quickly whip up a list of
Quote
brief one-sentence description(s) of the weapons of the game as the community sees them- which ships are useful for what, what they shouldn't be used for
covering all the small and medium weapons, frigates and destroyers, with graphics included.
Title: Re: Game is way too complex
Post by: Andy H.K. on November 10, 2014, 07:39:19 AM
You don't need to fully understand the mechanics behind damage application to win battles. This is not some MMORPG where combats among to comparing spreadsheets. Combat in Starsector is primarily still an action game where good control and proper tactic matters.

It's fine if people doesn't immediately understand what all the number means. It doesn't matter when a newbie doesn't understand how better is a ship with 400 armor rating than one with 200 armor rating. All he need to know is that bigger number is better in this case. He doesn't need to understand armor's damage mitigation to tackle a ship with high armor, all he need to know is that HE hit harder to armor.

Of course when the newbie has raised interest, that's when he become an enthusiast and start to research the numbers behind them. that's when things get complex. However, by then he would've seen some blood, he would have experience to understand how things are interacting with each other. He would have developed a "starfaring" sense to analyse the statistics. Still, the basic remain the same, all one need to know is which number need to be large (DPS, speed, armor) and which need to be small (supply consumption, shield upkeep).

Isn't this learning process a big part of the "fun"?
Title: Re: Game is way too complex
Post by: SatchelCharge on November 10, 2014, 02:34:09 PM
Quote from: Andy H.K. on November 10, 2014, 07:39:19 AM
Isn't this learning process a big part of the "fun"?

I believe it is. I also have been playing Starsector since before the name change, and between many hours spent playing and reading these forums I had the game largely figured out (though I don't consider myself an 'expert' player.)

This update was rather daunting. The economy was frightening at first and then slightly disappointing when I, like many others, realized that it didn't really matter if I sold my pile of 100 ingots for $20/unit or $60/unit. At least not past the very early game. It's just gravy, not a serious way to make money. It adds a wonderful layer depth and atmosphere, but it's not quite there yet if the player is encouraged most simply to take advantage of a monthly food shortage between bounty-hunts.

A lot is being done right. Alex never makes terrible design decisions and the fact that a learning curve is there even on individual features he adds is (to me) a great sign and, I've already said, quite atmospheric when polished up. You said it well Andy, I suppose I'm just paraphrasing.
Title: Re: Game is way too complex
Post by: Dratai on November 10, 2014, 03:48:21 PM
Additionally, a lot of the relevant stats are readily available in the refit screen.
tooltips when hovering over items, things sorted by OP, flux capacity and so on in the upper right right next to the add capacitors/etc buttons. you don't have to move your eyes or hand to see how many points you have left to spend when dillying with it. when all guns are installed it tells you how much they are projected to require to fire continously and that is literally right underneath shield flux per hit/damage which again is right under flux reduction and capacity there again. the flux per second for just having the shield is mentioned too. so you can make a decision: is this a ship I really want to add reduction to? do I want more capacity? how much do I get per point? which one is better for this ship in particular?
And it is through making these decisions and seeing the results of our choices that we get better at playing the game.

It is certainly not the most optimal design for keeping track of things, it does not take that long to know where to look, and with some experience, much like your character levels up, you, the player, level up your ability/figure out what's more important to your playstyle.

Do you need less logistics rating  but more cargo space? sell your mule for a buffalo. Buy an atlas, not three tarsus.
Do you need a mobile fleet with a little storage space? get mules or buffalos, not the atlas.
Are you consuming too much supplies for your liking? sell or store the atlas when you're not using it.

My point is, much like anything you intend to engage in, you ought to put time into it to get better at it. The same goes for any other game with numbers, even the more obvious numbers.
That said, the numbers are many and varied. But if you look at them, a lot of these numbers are an extension of another number. A lot of the numbers that are relevant in a given situation are also just one or two of said numbers. Some numbers could use clarification.
Like an estimate for how much a flight deck actually does work wise. "Reliably supports X wings" for instance.
to insinuate this is the reccommended number of wings you ought to use with a one-decker. But also lets you know it is not the maximum possible and that more decks makes it go faster.
Though on the other hand, it's still alpha, and people are still occationally discussing how effective one deck is.

Meaning that yes, it is complex, the complexity lends itself to the experience.
And since it's alpha, not all of the numbers are in place yet, most likely.
That aside, the only real change I would suggest is easier comparing, I'll give you that there's a lot of numbers/buttons needing to be pressed to compare one ship to another in detail, but I personally think the current complexity is otherwise just a boon.
Title: Re: Game is way too complex
Post by: Dratai on November 10, 2014, 03:48:52 PM
(then again I'm a stickler for planning and crunching numbers, I may be biased)
Title: Re: Game is way too complex
Post by: Doogie on November 10, 2014, 05:38:30 PM
Keep in mind that this game is still in an epic beta. Undoubtedly, there will be some sort of tutorial mechanic introduced much later, but as of now the core mechanics of the game haven't been fully implemented (see industry).
Title: Re: Game is way too complex
Post by: WKOB on November 10, 2014, 05:55:16 PM
People keep talking about number crunching and stat optimization... but none of that is even necessary. It takes one look at the sleek lines and price (okay, technically a number) of the Tempest to know, that's the ship you want to kick major ass.

Alex and David highly value transparency in the ship designs as well, with highly visible or recognizable weapon slots, ship intention, the weapons themselves. Honestly, even if the game does feel complex at first somehow, I imagine it all comes together within an hour.

Unfortunately it was too long ago for me to know how I felt when I first launched the game.
Title: Re: Game is way too complex
Post by: Blaze on November 10, 2014, 06:29:49 PM
I do find that there are a few too many numbers that require a bit more thinking than others, particularly things like DPS/FluxPS.

And it does get somewhat troublesome when comparing ships, I keep having to check back from one and the other.

But that's more of an interface issue than a complexity issue; a way to compare weapons/ships side-by-side would be nice.

Personally, I find it easier to not bother calculating numbers and do it the simple way: Which weapon is better? Run a simulation and test it out.
Title: Re: Game is way too complex
Post by: WKOB on November 10, 2014, 06:39:16 PM
Quote
Personally, I find it easier to not bother calculating numbers and do it the simple way: Which weapon is better? Run a simulation and test it out.

Yeah, exactly! Particularly with things like DPS and FluxPS, those numbers have too many variables to be useful anyway. Just toss the weapon on, shoot it at a Cerebrus or a Mule, or just out into space to see how your flux level goes, and it's apparent.
Title: Re: Game is way too complex
Post by: MidnightSun on November 10, 2014, 07:02:41 PM
I definitely get where the OP is coming from, although I enjoy the nuanced complexity.

Perhaps a visual representation of stats such as burn, flux capacity, etc, etc (ie Hyperion has a full speed bar, Onslaught has a near-empty one) could be more useful? Many games that have hidden complexity in numerical stats represent these in the UI as various bars (ie: Mass Effect 3). Starsector could do the same, and have the actual numbers be visible by hovering over the bars.
Title: Re: Game is way too complex
Post by: Igncom1 on November 10, 2014, 07:03:04 PM
Heh, what's funny to me is what the tutorial taught you, and I have yet to pilot a single battle other then for show.

Playing as a admiral is really easy, because you can focus on the campaign map suff while the AI does the hard battling stuff.
Title: Re: Game is way too complex
Post by: NikolaiLev on November 10, 2014, 07:06:35 PM
I personally don't think it's complex enough.  It could still use a lot more.  Really, this just points to a lack of a sufficient tutorial.
Title: Re: Game is way too complex
Post by: Hopelessnoob on November 10, 2014, 07:08:50 PM
I find WHY trade things happen slightly confusing but its easy to figure out how to make money(damn tariffs). I like the complexity more complex more fun!
 
Title: Re: Game is way too complex
Post by: Alex on November 10, 2014, 09:19:09 PM
(Probably not in the best of shape to comment here; need sleep badly, but just a few non-comprehensive responses. Without quoting what I'm responding to, because sleep sooner.)

Remember a long time ago ship tooltips used to show a few basic stats (offense/defense/etc) on a 1-10 scale, using pips? There was a *lot* of feedback asking to see the actual numbers. I do generally agree that seeing the numbers isn't necessary to be able to play - most numbers, anyway. Burn and logistics are pretty important. I guess "seeing most combat numbers isn't necessary" is accurate, but it does *help* to see them once you start optimizing designs.

The Codex being overwhelming is probably an argument for removing the codex/making entries in the codex be unlocked through campaign gameplay. As far as I'm concerned, the Codex is a super-unfinished feature at the moment.


In general, I'm simplifying things here and there. The ship tooltip, for example, lost a couple of stats in the last update - iirc the CR loss/second value was standardized and so removed as a player-facing value. I've been thinking of culling a few other low bang-for-the-buck values like this as well. (shield/phase upkeep, perhaps? shield flux/damage could possibly be standardized as well, with notable differences expressed via built-in hullmods.)

It's hard for me to detach, but I'm not seeing "mass of spreadsheets". The most complex thing, iirc, is the ship tooltip. That is admittedly complex (and, as mentioned, I'm aiming to get it simpler by cutting complexity w/o cutting depth where possible), but what else rises to that level? Genuinely interested, esp. in new/returning-after-hiatus player perspectives.
Title: Re: Game is way too complex
Post by: WKOB on November 10, 2014, 09:31:10 PM
Quote
returning-after-hiatus player perspectives.
Well, where I'm coming from with my 'the game flows smoothly and is self-apparent regardless of the stats' perspective is after a year-long hiatus of not playing the game at all. There's been some significant changes, especially CR and I'm find that even CR isn't too complicated to understand. Get supplies, keep the supplies flowing.
Title: Re: Game is way too complex
Post by: cp252 on November 10, 2014, 09:59:14 PM
Alex:
Previously, having slowly learned the game mechanics as described by everyone else in this thread, I would have said the same as them- there are no problems.
As I see it now, even as someone who knows the mechanics, the UI's presentation of data is somewhat overwhelming. I don't think you need to reduce the complexity, but more infographics are always helpful- from the perspective of someone who can't read lots of numbers.
Yes, you have the option of working things out through sim. This doesn't quite work when I want to know whether to invest on a new ship or when I have ten small ballistic slot weapons to compare with each other. Thorough testing just takes too long.
My main points are such:
1) not everyone can easy read the current stats screen.
2) the community can help with a thread describing each item's place in the game's meta. For example, tempest is super kitey, we like putting heavy blasters on it.
3) yes, all these things can be learned with experience but as someone who is trying to relearn the intricacies of the game, I think I would have given up if I didn't already love this game.
Title: Re: Game is way too complex
Post by: TaLaR on November 10, 2014, 10:20:56 PM
Quote from: Alex on November 10, 2014, 09:19:09 PM
In general, I'm simplifying things here and there. The ship tooltip, for example, lost a couple of stats in the last update - iirc the CR loss/second value was standardized and so removed as a player-facing value. I've been thinking of culling a few other low bang-for-the-buck values like this as well. (shield/phase upkeep, perhaps? shield flux/damage could possibly be standardized as well, with notable differences expressed via built-in hullmods.)

While making stats more accessible is not a bad thing, there are actually some not displayed stats that i'd like to see:
- Ship acceleration and turn rate ( they were previously vaguely present as manoeuvrability).
For example it is possible to have about same speeds on slower frigates & Falcon with hullmods, but huge difference in these stats is not mentioned in tooltip and hard to measure in play.
- Ship system flux costs, durations, cooldowns, effect values (where applicable).
- Flux cost per shot for weapons (in addition to flux per second that is already present)
- Active vent rate (Not particulary important for vanilla, but many mods add hullmods that modify it)
Title: Re: UI is way too obtuse
Post by: cp252 on November 10, 2014, 11:07:26 PM
Maybe an option for the old dots system might work. Simple/complex stat display, so the experienced players are happy and newbies aren't intimidated.
Title: Re: Game is way too complex
Post by: JohnDoe on November 11, 2014, 12:27:45 AM
Quote from: Alex on November 10, 2014, 09:19:09 PM
Remember a long time ago ship tooltips used to show a few basic stats (offense/defense/etc) on a 1-10 scale, using pips? There was a *lot* of feedback asking to see the actual numbers.

Quote from: cp252 on November 10, 2014, 11:07:26 PM
Maybe an option for the old dots system might work. Simple/complex stat display, so the experienced players are happy and newbies aren't intimidated.

Why not show both? In this case the pips are computed by comparing weapon/unit stats against the average weapon/unit stats in that category.

Spoiler
(http://i.imgur.com/g4dRQfp.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/xBRvDyQ.jpg)
[close]
Title: Re: Game is way too complex
Post by: cp252 on November 11, 2014, 04:06:38 AM
Quote from: JohnDoe on November 11, 2014, 12:27:45 AM
Quote from: Alex on November 10, 2014, 09:19:09 PM
Remember a long time ago ship tooltips used to show a few basic stats (offense/defense/etc) on a 1-10 scale, using pips? There was a *lot* of feedback asking to see the actual numbers.

Quote from: cp252 on November 10, 2014, 11:07:26 PM
Maybe an option for the old dots system might work. Simple/complex stat display, so the experienced players are happy and newbies aren't intimidated.

Why not show both? In this case the pips are computed by comparing weapon/unit stats against the average weapon/unit stats in that category.

Spoiler
(http://i.imgur.com/g4dRQfp.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/xBRvDyQ.jpg)
[close]

YES! The Wargame series is a perfect example. Extremely deep and complex game with a huge number of stats but the coloured bars go a long way to helping- I can see at a glance which unit is good at once, and how they compare to other units.
Title: Re: UI is way too obtuse
Post by: Histidine on November 11, 2014, 05:21:09 AM
Crude test version of one-line weapons guide. (http://starsector.wikia.com/wiki/User:Histidine/Sandbox1) Not as good looking or useful as I'd imagined it would be.
Title: Re: UI is way too obtuse
Post by: SCC on November 11, 2014, 07:04:37 AM
Quote from: Histidine on November 11, 2014, 05:21:09 AM
Crude test version of one-line weapons guide. (http://starsector.wikia.com/wiki/User:Histidine/Sandbox1) Not as good looking or useful as I'd imagined it would be.
Damn, I was just about to do my own guide. I even started! And only started...
Title: Re: UI is way too obtuse
Post by: ahrenjb on November 11, 2014, 08:28:05 AM
Honestly, I don't fine the game OR the UI to be terribly complex or inaccessible. I picked this game up fairly quickly, and while there is nuance and detail to be learned, the core concepts of play come together pretty easily. I've not shown this game to someone that had true difficulty grasping it, and I personally find the complexity one of the attractive features of the game. It allows for a lot of variation, detail, and depth. Go play EVE sometime, or any other number of games equally or more complex than this game that are quite successful. Complex games just appeal to a different sort of playerbase than say, Minecraft or Candy Crush.
Title: Re: Game is way too complex
Post by: Alex on November 11, 2014, 03:59:34 PM
Quote from: TaLaR on November 10, 2014, 10:20:56 PM
Quote from: Alex on November 10, 2014, 09:19:09 PM
In general, I'm simplifying things here and there. The ship tooltip, for example, lost a couple of stats in the last update - iirc the CR loss/second value was standardized and so removed as a player-facing value. I've been thinking of culling a few other low bang-for-the-buck values like this as well. (shield/phase upkeep, perhaps? shield flux/damage could possibly be standardized as well, with notable differences expressed via built-in hullmods.)

While making stats more accessible is not a bad thing, there are actually some not displayed stats that i'd like to see:
- Ship acceleration and turn rate ( they were previously vaguely present as manoeuvrability).
For example it is possible to have about same speeds on slower frigates & Falcon with hullmods, but huge difference in these stats is not mentioned in tooltip and hard to measure in play.
- Ship system flux costs, durations, cooldowns, effect values (where applicable).
- Flux cost per shot for weapons (in addition to flux per second that is already present)
- Active vent rate (Not particulary important for vanilla, but many mods add hullmods that modify it)

Acceleration and turn rate are, imo, things that are too difficult to compare or get a real sense for from looking at the numbers. You get more from 3 seconds in the simulator, and besides, they're somewhat correlated with ship size and top speed. All in all, just not worth the UI space/complexity imo. Showing too much information is a bad thing too, it lowers the usefulness of all the information you're showing. And considering there are *four* numbers here (accel/decel/turn rate/turn accel...

Active vent rate: if a hullmod is there to call out the change, imo that's quite enough. The issue is when the value is important, changes, and not called out anywhere.

System flux stats: Hmm. I think that since you're not going to be comparing ships on the basis of this, or picking which system to add to a ship, that it's not actually all that important to show.

Flux per shot/other: Maybe, yeah. It's another tough call as to whether to add an easily-calculated piece of derived info, i.e. whether it's worth the extra screen space or not. I'd love to take another look at the weapon tooltip at some point, and, as mentioned elsewhere, making it easier to compare weapons there could be a very good thing.


All in all, I'm not necessarily a fan of showing information that can be figured out through playing, but that can be a delicate balance.


Quote from: cp252 on November 11, 2014, 04:06:38 AM
Quote from: JohnDoe on November 11, 2014, 12:27:45 AM
Quote from: Alex on November 10, 2014, 09:19:09 PM
Remember a long time ago ship tooltips used to show a few basic stats (offense/defense/etc) on a 1-10 scale, using pips? There was a *lot* of feedback asking to see the actual numbers.

Quote from: cp252 on November 10, 2014, 11:07:26 PM
Maybe an option for the old dots system might work. Simple/complex stat display, so the experienced players are happy and newbies aren't intimidated.

Why not show both? In this case the pips are computed by comparing weapon/unit stats against the average weapon/unit stats in that category.

Spoiler
(http://i.imgur.com/g4dRQfp.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/xBRvDyQ.jpg)
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YES! The Wargame series is a perfect example. Extremely deep and complex game with a huge number of stats but the coloured bars go a long way to helping- I can see at a glance which unit is good at once, and how they compare to other units.

I think David pointed me to this a while back :) It looks good, yeah! One of the issues is the vertical screen space; the ship stats panel would get about 2x taller with this approach. Another issue is picking the right scales for the bar. For example, for armor, would you show "armor within size class" or absolute? If you show "high armor (for frigates)", then it's useless for seeing how the armor of a frigate compares to a destroyer, and it's not always less. If you do absolute, then the nuances of frigate to frigate comparisons might get lost. Still, that's not that big a deal and the right way to approach that could probably get figured out. UI layout is the bigger issue.
Title: Re: UI is way too obtuse
Post by: Megas on November 11, 2014, 04:04:52 PM
Quote
Flux per shot/other: Maybe, yeah. It's another tough call as to whether to add an easily-calculated piece of derived info, i.e. whether it's worth the extra screen space or not. I'd love to take another look at the weapon tooltip at some point, and, as mentioned elsewhere, making it easier to compare weapons there could be a very good thing.
This is useful for weapons with a very slow rate of fire, such as antimatter blaster or tachyon lance.
Title: Re: Game is way too complex
Post by: Andy H.K. on November 11, 2014, 08:34:05 PM
Quote from: Alex on November 11, 2014, 03:59:34 PM
I think David pointed me to this a while back :) It looks good, yeah! One of the issues is the vertical screen space; the ship stats panel would get about 2x taller with this approach. Another issue is picking the right scales for the bar. For example, for armor, would you show "armor within size class" or absolute? If you show "high armor (for frigates)", then it's useless for seeing how the armor of a frigate compares to a destroyer, and it's not always less. If you do absolute, then the nuances of frigate to frigate comparisons might get lost. Still, that's not that big a deal and the right way to approach that could probably get figured out. UI layout is the bigger issue.
Not to mention the whole thing falls apart when mods, which may not be balanced against vanilla ships, is concerned. A single overpowered ship is going to wreck the scale. if the scale is automatically calculated, every "balanced" ship is going to be pushed to the lower end of the scale. If the scale is manually assigned, that means double the work for ship designers, and a mod ships's "average" may still be way better than the vanilla scale, and comparison with such result is disastrously misleading.

Of course modded ship can always leave half a panel of ship data empty.... but that wouldn't look nice, would it?
Title: Re: UI is way too obtuse
Post by: Gaizokubanou on November 11, 2014, 10:49:32 PM
One new interface that caught me off guard for a bit was the new store page.  After using it a bit having buy/sell, categories and open/military/blackmarket being 'tab-like' makes sense, but for the first few times it just felt very awkward to read and navigate.

I think the store front being more of a list than grid inventory (even if it's less space efficient, I'm just so dang used to viewing purchasing options in a list thanks to years of real web store usage) might make it look more natural as a store but that's whole new set of UI so it's probably not worth it this early.  But I do hope you would take it as a consideration Alex :)
Title: Re: Game is way too complex
Post by: JohnDoe on November 12, 2014, 01:07:58 AM
Quote from: Andy H.K. on November 11, 2014, 08:34:05 PM
A single overpowered ship is going to wreck the scale
There are various ways to deal with that problem; for starters the UI could instead show how many sigmas it's away from the trimmean.

Quote from: Alex on November 11, 2014, 03:59:34 PM
the ship stats panel would get about 2x taller with this approach
It doesn't have to be pips or bars; simple color coding works too. Surely it conflicts with the current color coding of skill/hullmod bonuses (like 2200(+200) flux capacity will be shown in light green), and I reserve my opinion on whether overriding the default one is a good thing.

Quote from: Alex on November 11, 2014, 03:59:34 PM
Another issue is picking the right scales for the bar. For example, for armor, would you show "armor within size class" or absolute? If you show "high armor (for frigates)", then it's useless for seeing how the armor of a frigate compares to a destroyer, and it's not always less. If you do absolute, then the nuances of frigate to frigate comparisons might get lost
Maybe show a frigate's armor value on a scale from average frigate armor value to average destroyer armor value, if it's above the frigate average but below the destroyer average, for instance.

I agree that UI layout would be a bigger issue.
Title: Re: UI is way too obtuse
Post by: jupjupy on November 12, 2014, 06:00:05 AM
Just wanna put this out there while we're at it:

Any chance we could get a codex for ship systems? I think that at this point we've got enough different systems that I'd like to be able to read up the stats for each of them. I don't actually know the hard flux/sec generation of Fortress shield, how much hull the Terminator drone has, or how far the Phase Skimmer teleports me, for example. Sure, I could guess from in-combat scenarios, which is probably why its not important enough to put under the ship info, but I'd like to go through and compare stuff, not to mention read the fluff that I do so love about this game.

Also, a little irrelevant, but I've noticed that some fighter-specific weapons (those in mods, since I think all the vanilla fighters have proper ship-variants) seem to have fighter-specific weapons that I cant find in the codex.
Title: Re: UI is way too obtuse
Post by: cardgame on November 12, 2014, 12:42:30 PM
The UI works fine for me, for the most part. One exception: the Logistics tab on the bottom left. 40/44 fleet points or whatever. OK, but there's abnsolutely nothing (to my knowledge) that describes that information as it correspods to actual fleet units. Grab a hound (3 deployment points), pop it in the fleet, 41/44 points. Grab a 12-point cruiser and it goes up by 8. Not much consistency that I can find and zero descriptive tooltips or info. Unless I'm just being obtuse myself and overlooking something simple.
Title: Re: UI is way too obtuse
Post by: CopperCoyote on November 12, 2014, 01:12:56 PM
Quote from: cardgame on November 12, 2014, 12:42:30 PM
The UI works fine for me, for the most part. One exception: the Logistics tab on the bottom left. 40/44 fleet points or whatever. OK, but there's abnsolutely nothing (to my knowledge) that describes that information as it correspods to actual fleet units. Grab a hound (3 deployment points), pop it in the fleet, 41/44 points. Grab a 12-point cruiser and it goes up by 8. Not much consistency that I can find and zero descriptive tooltips or info. Unless I'm just being obtuse myself and overlooking something simple.

The blue bar on the top of the quick reference dealie shows you the Logistic Rating. Not the deployment cost. They were separated in the Combat Readiness update.

On the F1 info pop-up the CR cost is toward the top center. It's what's subtracted from your LR.

So a hound costs 1 supply per day and it removes 1 from your logistics rating. I think the cruiser you're talking about is the eagle and it costs 8 supplies per day, and that's why it goes up by 8. (the hound is actually 1.1 total because crew requires 1 LR per 100 personnel and eagle is actually 9? It's either 9 or 10 after crew is added)

I think this is described in the help tooltips, but i haven't had them on in a while.
Title: Re: Game is way too complex
Post by: GUNINANRUNIN on November 12, 2014, 05:38:55 PM
Quote from: Austupaio on November 10, 2014, 02:21:42 AM
This is... interesting. I don't mean to call you guys dumb or anything, but I don't see it. I mean, every statistic is so self explanatory.
^^This.
Title: Re: UI is way too obtuse
Post by: SatchelCharge on November 13, 2014, 06:21:07 AM
My gripes with the UI are far and few between. It works very well considering the amount of data we get from it. The mouse-over + F1 tips are great.... play for 5 hours, 6 hours, and your eyes are trained to every part.
Title: Re: UI is way too obtuse
Post by: cardgame on November 13, 2014, 12:17:32 PM
Ah, so the supplies/day is the logistics rating? Thanks, Copper.
Title: Re: UI is way too obtuse
Post by: Kommodore Krieg on November 14, 2014, 03:01:51 PM
I don't know about anyone else, but when a game presents "stats" for something to me in a "simple" way (take the guns in BF4 for example; the "stats" are all displayed as a series of numberless but easy to read bars) I immediately leave the game so I can find some actual numbers online.  Starsector thankfully doesn't do this, all the numbers are right there in front of me.  Now, I am not saying the display could not be improved in some way, organized better or some such, but the display of actual statistics shouldn't be sacrificed on the altar of "ease of use". 
Title: Re: UI is way too obtuse
Post by: Nanao-kun on November 14, 2014, 03:15:57 PM
I've only played this since 0.6.2a so I don't really know how things were from before that, but I haven't had any problem with the current UI.

One thing that bothers me is fuel distance in hyperspace. The Intel tab's map tells me some info, as does hovering over the fuel gauge, but I have no clue how that corresponds to actual distance in hyperspace.

I'd love to see a "Fuel Used" or "Total Light Years" when pointing the cursor at a point on the Map tab.
Title: Re: UI is way too obtuse
Post by: orost on November 14, 2014, 04:27:42 PM
I don't really have any problems with the ship stat UI, it's perfectly clear to me.

I have some other gripes with the UI though:

Title: Re: UI is way too obtuse
Post by: JohnDoe on November 15, 2014, 12:18:39 PM
Quote from: orost on November 14, 2014, 04:27:42 PM
There is a desperate need for an in-battle summary of the state of your forces.

I strongly second that.