Fractal Softworks Forum
Starsector => General Discussion => Blog Posts => Topic started by: Alex on August 25, 2014, 04:07:42 PM
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Blog post here (http://fractalsoftworks.com/2014/08/25/trade-smuggling/).
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How do you define "evading" customs inspectors? Does they have to bring you up on comms first? Is that when you refuse to cooperate and then leave? Or is evading being able to get around the inspectors without them interacting with you and bringing up the comms message/inspection/scan?
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How do you define "evading" customs inspectors? Does they have to bring you up on comms first? Is that when you refuse to cooperate and then leave? Or is evading being able to get around the inspectors without them interacting with you and bringing up the comms message/inspection/scan?
The way it works is first there's the comm ping, and then a few seconds after that - if you're still in range - a dialog pops up telling you to stop etc etc. If you manage to get away before that happens (i.e. moving far away, or initiating a jump), you get away without any consequences, but they'll probably try again soon.
If you evade in any way *after* the initial dialog pops up, there are consequences. What they are depends on exactly what happened. The worst case scenario is they find contraband, and then you refuse to give it up and have to retreat. Well, I guess the worst case would be you refuse to give it up and then *attack* them, but I mean "worst case where it's not insta-hostile".
Edit: there actually is a case where you get away scot-free after the inspection starts, and that's if either you or the patrol get attacked by a third party during the scan.
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Using bounty hunting and smuggling to balance your reputations? Sound like a good Han Solo thing we could have going on here.
I for one love that, and will almost certainly be trying out a one ship fleet in the next update to try and get that effect.
the question is which ship, if a single destroyer can evade fleets then it will almost certainly be a destroyer.. medusa's are fast and good in a fight but can't carry cargo worth a crap.. the hammerhead on the other hand.. this requires some thought which is better put elsewhere than here. ( over in General discussion if you want to add something)
Regardless of all that I find this next update looking rather excellent, cracking job there Alex & David ( sorry if i forgot anyone)
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This gives me the warmfuzzies all around. Sector's gonna feel so much more alive. Your choices will actually mold the "character" you feel like you're playing as.
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If only I had the <Dump Memory> option IRL...
Anyways, cool stuff. Me gusta the amount of lore and character on SS's IV drip;D
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Hm... With there being a time delay between ping and hail, you can even dump contraband before they scan. Presumably there's some easy way to tell which bits of cargo a given patrol is likely to consider contraband?
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Hm... With there being a time delay between ping and hail, you can even dump contraband before they scan. Presumably there's some easy way to tell which bits of cargo a given patrol is likely to consider contraband?
the patrol will refer to their faction guidelines as to what is contraband, so the hegemony probably won't like people smuggling drugs around. so you would dump those. i presume there will be a way to see those faction guidelines, probably at the market/black market.
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Presumably there's some easy way to tell which bits of cargo a given patrol is likely to consider contraband?
Oh, good point. Made a note to add that to the faction info tab on the intel screen, hopefully can work that in. Aside from that, you can tell stuff is illegal when you can't sell it on the open market - the background of the inventory tile is red, and the tooltip has an explanation. Doesn't help you know if that independent patrol is going to take issue with your cargo of Harvested Organs, of course.
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Ok sounds good so far. You evade the inspectors, can you still dock with a station or land on a planet to trade goods? I can imagine it being possible to successfully evade an enemy by flying into an atmosphere and under the clouds, or blend in with other cargo ships etc. if you're fast enough. Or will it become impossible to land/dock because the station/planet is on alert and looking for you?
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Will we be able to do inspections and or pings as well?
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Ok sounds good so far. You evade the inspectors, can you still dock with a station or land on a planet to trade goods? I can imagine it being possible to successfully evade an enemy by flying into an atmosphere and under the clouds, or blend in with other cargo ships etc. if you're fast enough. Or will it become impossible to land/dock because the station/planet is on alert and looking for you?
If you make a clean getaway and then come back around, yeah, you can do that. You can't do it while a patrol is chasing you, though - the port authority will refuse docking clearance, and more unsavory elements you might otherwise trade with won't take the chance.
Will we be able to do inspections and or pings as well?
No. I could see something like that happening later if, say, there's a way for you to sign up with a faction and do this kind of work, but as that's not currently possible (and may or may not be, later), these are kind of inapplicable.
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Will a customs inspection fleet leave you alone if...say you cruise in with 3 Onslaughts and a Atlas full illegal goods (they overwhelmed)? Or would a destroyer and a couple of frigates acting as customs inspectors be ballsy enough to scan you?
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Will a customs inspection fleet leave you alone if...say you cruise in with 3 Onslaughts and a Atlas full illegal goods (they overwhelmed)? Or would a destroyer and a couple of frigates acting as customs inspectors be ballsy enough to scan you?
They'll still try to inspect. What will happen then is you'll have the choice of either complying, trying to disengage (in which case they'll harass you -> CR loss, some rep loss for you), or engaging them (in which case they'll run, and this is going to drop the relationship to hostile right away). They've got the weight of the faction's authority behind them, and as long as there aren't open hostilities, there's no reason to run. And if there *are* open hostilities, the question of a customs inspection doesn't come up.
And, if you've got a fleet that heavy, you're not going to be able to sneak in, so punching through isn't really an option. What kind of black market player is going to want to trade with you after making that much noise? That's just asking to be taken down by the authorities.
If the relationship is still at "suspicious" after you were harassed and got away, then you *will* be able to dock legally and trade. Can think of that as sort of muscling the patrol, but not quite to the point where word gets around and it gets really bad. Still, hmm. Let me note this down/think about it a bit.
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So what are the fleet size and cargo tolls that Mr. Petty is charging you there? I'm guessing it means that every time you get inspected (regardless of whether or not they find things), you pay a toll? Or do those only come into effect when you get assessed fines?
Also, it doesn't seem to make sense that you always lose relationship when trading on the black market. That implies that the authorities always somehow find out and know everything that happens at the station. It wouldn't be a "black market" if that was the case. Just seems a little weird.
Unrelated, but after looking at the screenshot, it looks like everyone in the sector is starving simultaneously... :(
*edit - Is this the patch where we get music control through the API? pleasepleasepleasesayyesalex :)
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So what are the fleet size and cargo tolls that Mr. Petty is charging you there? I'm guessing it means that every time you get inspected (regardless of whether or not they find things), you pay a toll? Or do those only come into effect when you get assessed fines?
Every time. Ship toll is based on fleet points (might change that), cargo toll on the base value of the cargo.
Also, it doesn't seem to make sense that you always lose relationship when trading on the black market. That implies that the authorities always somehow find out and know everything that happens at the station. It wouldn't be a "black market" if that was the case. Just seems a little weird.
It's not immediate like that - rather, you trade, and then a bit later, you get a message about the relationship going down. It might be months, if you haven't met the threshold for at least a point's worth of change. So, it's not that directly connected - otherwise, I agree, it might feel weird if literally every transaction with the black resulted in an instant reputation loss.
As it is, there's no practical difference between "authorities always find out" vs "authorities sometimes find out" since we're talking about longer-term accumulation, and it'd average out.
It's also not "find out", but more "suspect". "Find out" is an investigation event, which may be kicked off due to high-volume black market trade. If the investigation finds you guilty, then the relationship drops like a rock. It's also possible you get stuck with the blame, even if you're not involved in the smuggling - as long as you've traded with that market, that market has a lot of smuggling activity, and they already don't like you (i.e. you're convenient scapegoat).
Unrelated, but after looking at the screenshot, it looks like everyone in the sector is starving simultaneously... :(
I was wondering if someone would notice :) The chances of that are extremely high right now for testing purposes - it's all food shortages all the time.
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would your crew need food? Or is upkeep still just supply only for now?
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Supplies conceptually include food, so no, crew doesn't need food, and it's likely to stay that way. Think MREs/field rations vs "1000 bags of chips".
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fair enough.
are there any new goods that are for more than just trading either in this update or planned for the future? handguns to equip marines? harvested organs to save officers/crew? things like that?
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Well, supplies and fuel are in the economy, so there's that. Hand weapons/organs/drugs have a much higher destabilizing effect when sold on the black market, compared to other goods.
Some of the commodities are in the supply chain for fuel/supplies, so they matter in that sense. For example, the fuel production facility on Sindria needs organics, volatiles, rare metals, and heavy machinery. Heavy machinery in turn requires metals (among other things), which require ore. And so on.
You'd have to move a staggering quantity to make a difference, though (on the order of 200k of just organics to go from zero to peak production for about a cycle, assuming everything else was available), so that's more of looking towards a possible future when you're able to hook outposts you own into the economy.
That aside, you bring up a good point. Eventually, I'd like to make commodities more individually meaningful. It doesn't even have to be systemic, I think. Just a one-off use for "heavy machinery" in an event somewhere would do a lot to make it feel more unique. I don't know about trying more things directly to gameplay, though (such as "handguns for marines" or "organs to save crew"). If you do too much of that, you just end up with a huge inventory of stuff the player has to acquire and carry to function. Supplies are abstracted specifically to avoid that.
Going purely speculative: I could see something like a special device that lets you do something unique - say, a wormhole generator that lets you go to hyperspace from anywhere, or something along those lines. Something that's a lot of bang for your buck and not just logistics.
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Going purely speculative: I could see something like a special device that lets you do something unique - say, a wormhole generator that lets you go to hyperspace from anywhere, or something along those lines. Something that's a lot of bang for your buck and not just logistics.
This could open up another avenue of exciting gameplay as well. I've observed and implemented with the API systems that are 'not connected' to hyperspace, this leads to some cool things. But my real point is that you could not just have wormholes direct to hyperspace, but special one-off systems not connected to hyperspace. Systems that you can randomly generate like special loot maps in Torchlight. These other systems are cut off so it's a one way in, one way out with your special device. Like special loot maps there could be interesting or unique enemies, weapons for sale, purchasable trade goods etc. The exploration aspect would be interesting too.
Also such a device could be useful for situations when you want to quickly jump to one of your bases that are under attack.
Hm, anyway.
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So what are the fleet size and cargo tolls that Mr. Petty is charging you there? I'm guessing it means that every time you get inspected (regardless of whether or not they find things), you pay a toll? Or do those only come into effect when you get assessed fines?
Every time. Ship toll is based on fleet points (might change that), cargo toll on the base value of the cargo.
Doesn't this mean that player is basically punished for being too slow to avoid inspections? Or more exactly for flying near or staying around a station, while being not fast enough...
It feels like actual incentives for player here do not quite match what you try to achieve with this system.
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Will paying a toll exempt you from further tolling for a while? How long does this exemption last? Is this exemption recognised by other fleets, or only by the fleet who levied the toll? If you can get "double taxed", you'll infuriate every Republican who plays the game ;-)... jokes aside, it just generally feels very gamey and wrong. Abstractly speaking, they should know that you have the paperwork to back things up, so once you've paid your dues they should leave you well enough alone.
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Gods I can't wait to get my hands on your next build Alex :D
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Looking forward to this update. :)
Some questions:
How can your reputation drop if you performing a smuggling run successfully? The idea of smuggling is that, if done correctly, smugglers remain anonymous. I don't like the idea of omniscient factions too much. What about pirating, if you raid a ship and leave no witnesses, how can anyone know?
What about bribes, i reckon that bribing is a large part of smuggling. This holds some connection to previous questions, law keepers could probably trace smugglers after they deliver their goods, to avoid this you could basically bribe, threat or blackmail someone, additionally, you could maintain good connection with dealers so they cover their source (you), or have a false identity.
That brings me to another thing, maybe some part of reputation could be ship bound. You could have a reputation as a person which would suffer/increase if you get caught or admit your acts openly, or if the factions ascertain yours identity through investigation, which may be prevented with some skill. Other than that, you may be just an infamous pirate ship.
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IMO smuggling alone should only be able to decrease standing down to suspicious (after all, they can only "suspect" that you're behind it)
if you get caught or start avoiding scans, well.... Then they start having problems
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Damn, the next update is going to be quite big, isn't it? :o
Looking forward to it, although not looking forward to updating my mods. ;D'
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Looking forward to it, although not looking forward to updating my mods. ;D'
Same here...
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This sounds great, there is going to be such a shift in the way that the game is / can be played in the next release.
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It does look like the toll can be quite punishing... smuggler or not, the best option is to always avoid the patrol for best profit. This is especially worse for legal traders who had to pay the tariffs to begin with.
Seriously, those "patrol" look more like reputation salesman to me.... don't force me to buy it, I'll buy it somewhere else when I need it.
Hopefully the toll would be meager and tied to reputation, as in you get extorted less if you're on good term, or have connections with the higher-up.
I also agree that one should be able to bribe their way out when they got caught with contraband. More options for the player, the choice to take a hit in reputation or profit.
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Looks absolutely amazing.
I share the concern about being tolled to oblivion if I'm near a friendly station - at least you can only have your contraband caught once :P
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Very interesting blogpost. The price map looks spectacular :) What's the reason for your change from event based trading to events plus prices, Alex?
smuggler or not, the best option is to always avoid the patrol for best profit.
Not necessarily. Assuming you need a nimble fleet to evade patrols, using heavy ships would not be an option. But having the cargo capacity of an Atlas at your disposal could counterbalance the costs of tolling.
So this mechanic might actually make the small fleet play stile more viable, even if you're not smuggling.
Speaking of that, does fleet size have an influence on the likelihood of being stopped by a patrol?
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Going purely speculative: I could see something like a special device that lets you do something unique - say, a wormhole generator that lets you go to hyperspace from anywhere, or something along those lines. Something that's a lot of bang for your buck and not just logistics.
This could open up another avenue of exciting gameplay as well. I've observed and implemented with the API systems that are 'not connected' to hyperspace, this leads to some cool things. But my real point is that you could not just have wormholes direct to hyperspace, but special one-off systems not connected to hyperspace. Systems that you can randomly generate like special loot maps in Torchlight. These other systems are cut off so it's a one way in, one way out with your special device. Like special loot maps there could be interesting or unique enemies, weapons for sale, purchasable trade goods etc. The exploration aspect would be interesting too.
Also such a device could be useful for situations when you want to quickly jump to one of your bases that are under attack.
Hm, anyway.
Hah, yes. This is the reason I try to avoid going speculative, it's so easy to get to awesome-sounding stuff that may or may not fit in later on.
So what are the fleet size and cargo tolls that Mr. Petty is charging you there? I'm guessing it means that every time you get inspected (regardless of whether or not they find things), you pay a toll? Or do those only come into effect when you get assessed fines?
Every time. Ship toll is based on fleet points (might change that), cargo toll on the base value of the cargo.
Doesn't this mean that player is basically punished for being too slow to avoid inspections? Or more exactly for flying near or staying around a station, while being not fast enough...
It feels like actual incentives for player here do not quite match what you try to achieve with this system.
I don't understand what you mean, could you elaborate? The idea is, in fact, to reward faster fleets...
Will paying a toll exempt you from further tolling for a while? How long does this exemption last? Is this exemption recognised by other fleets, or only by the fleet who levied the toll? If you can get "double taxed", you'll infuriate every Republican who plays the game ;-)... jokes aside, it just generally feels very gamey and wrong. Abstractly speaking, they should know that you have the paperwork to back things up, so once you've paid your dues they should leave you well enough alone.
Looks absolutely amazing.
I share the concern about being tolled to oblivion if I'm near a friendly station - at least you can only have your contraband caught once :P
Right now, you can only get hit with a toll once every 30 days within any given system. I'll probably change it so that it's once a month per system per faction, though - otherwise, it's exploitable, as you could get stopped on purpose by a faction that doesn't consider your cargo illegal and then have free reign for a month.
The way it works is the faction controlling the largest market in-system may stop you anywhere in the system, or in hyperspace around the system. Factions controlling smaller markets will only stop you in-system, near those markets. For example, the desert world in Corvus, Asharu, is independent, and so you'll see a few independent patrols in-system, but they'll only consider stopping you when you're very close to Asharu. The Hegemony, controlling Jangala (the jungle planet you start next to), may stop you anywhere in-system or nearby.
Gods I can't wait to get my hands on your next build Alex :D
:) I know I say this all the time, but I really can't wait to get this out. Just have to tidy up a *lot* of stuff and tune things into something resembling a balance between combat and trade, so that'll probably take a bit.
How can your reputation drop if you performing a smuggling run successfully? The idea of smuggling is that, if done correctly, smugglers remain anonymous. I don't like the idea of omniscient factions too much. What about pirating, if you raid a ship and leave no witnesses, how can anyone know?
I think that's highly debatable. Smuggling on any decent scale is probably known about; I'd imagine the issue is having enough evidence to act/the smuggler being protected by people in high places/etc. If you're trading on the black market, chances are that means you've got some connections, which may in turn exert some pressure to keep you from being looked at *too* closely, etc. As for leaving no witnesses, there's 1) your own crew 2) black boxes 3) long-range sensors etc.
Rephrasing what I said earlier, I think there's no practical difference between, say, half your smuggling being known about or all your smuggling being known about at half the impact, due to how the system works.
What about bribes, i reckon that bribing is a large part of smuggling. This holds some connection to previous questions, law keepers could probably trace smugglers after they deliver their goods, to avoid this you could basically bribe, threat or blackmail someone, additionally, you could maintain good connection with dealers so they cover their source (you), or have a false identity.
I also agree that one should be able to bribe their way out when they got caught with contraband. More options for the player, the choice to take a hit in reputation or profit.
I've been thinking about bribes, and mostly want to stay away from that, at least for this release. It doesn't feel like a strongly differentiated choice in this particular situation: the toll *already* is paying credits to avoid a reputation hit, as the biggest hit comes from refusing to pay. It's also something that would tie in with personalities, and that's not something that exists. There's one case I'm thinking about adding bribes for, but :-X for now.
That brings me to another thing, maybe some part of reputation could be ship bound. You could have a reputation as a person which would suffer/increase if you get caught or admit your acts openly, or if the factions ascertain yours identity through investigation, which may be prevented with some skill. Other than that, you may be just an infamous pirate ship.
Yeah, that makes sense. I've been thinking about this on and off for a while. For this update, I think that's definitely digging too deep. It's a neat idea, but the details around it are really, really tricky, and may or may not fit in in the end.
IMO smuggling alone should only be able to decrease standing down to suspicious (after all, they can only "suspect" that you're behind it)
if you get caught or start avoiding scans, well.... Then they start having problems
Gameplay-wise, I think it makes sense for it to go to "inhospitable", where they refuse to trade with you. Call it "suspect" and "strongly suspect" :)
Damn, the next update is going to be quite big, isn't it? :o
Looking forward to it, although not looking forward to updating my mods. ;D'
Looking forward to it, although not looking forward to updating my mods. ;D'
Same here...
I think someone's called it the "modpocalypse" :) I'm trying to keep things as backwards-compatible as possible, but yeah, there are a lot of things that can't be helped.
This sounds great, there is going to be such a shift in the way that the game is / can be played in the next release.
Yeah! Hopefully, it won't be too broken, gameplay-mechanics-wise :) I'd imagine some issues will crop up, though - it's a fairly massive set of changes, and playtesting is only going to expose so much. Ah, I guess that's why they call it alpha.
Seriously, those "patrol" look more like reputation salesman to me.... don't force me to buy it, I'll buy it somewhere else when I need it.
Hopefully the toll would be meager and tied to reputation, as in you get extorted less if you're on good term, or have connections with the higher-up.
You get extorted less often, yeah. I wouldn't call them reputation salesmen, they're more selling the lack of a reputation change, if you get my drift. Good work if you can get it.
Very interesting blogpost. The price map looks spectacular :)
I just love all those icons :) Like, a lot.
What's the reason for your change from event based trading to events plus prices, Alex?
Well - it's still mostly based on events. Most of the high/low prices you see are due to events, either directly or through stability changes. The map is, in that light, a price-focused visualization of the impact of ongoing events. (I should mention, the prices you know about are approximate and can go out of date.) You also see average prices that enable you take advantage of low/high prices elsewhere - i.e., buy average-priced here, sell high there. You often need to see *some* non-event prices to exploit event prices.
The main exceptions to being event driven are due to smuggling, for two reasons. One, there are no tolls. What tolls do is cover the price differential the economic simulation generates, ensuring trade is unprofitable. Remove tolls, and a few cases of profit-enabling prices slip through, just due to how the simulation works. I might actually add a 5-10% toll to the black market, just to nuke most of those cases.
Two - closely related to one - is that the economic sim generates higher price differences across enemy lines. So, for example, trading from Sindria to Umbra (pirate-controlled) can be profitable, event or not, *if* you're going all black market. The difference still isn't high enough for legal trade, with its 30% tariffs on both ends. This is intentional, the idea is to encourage smuggling across these types of routes. They also naturally have higher reputation penalties - smuggling penalty, plus "trading with an enemy" penalties. Hopefully the risks involved are enough to offset the greater availability/reliability of those routes; and you're better off taking advantage of an event when one is available, anyway.
smuggler or not, the best option is to always avoid the patrol for best profit.
Not necessarily. Assuming you need a nimble fleet to evade patrols, using heavy ships would not be an option. But having the cargo capacity of an Atlas at your disposal could counterbalance the costs of tolling.
So this mechanic might actually make the small fleet play stile more viable, even if you're not smuggling.
Yeah, that's the idea. Need to playtest this a lot, though.
Speaking of that, does fleet size have an influence on the likelihood of being stopped by a patrol?
Some. A lone frigate won't be stopped until the reputation is low. A fleet with up to 3 frigates has reduced chances of being stopped unless the reputation is low. We'll see if more tweaking is necessary; for these two changes, the idea was to stop a new player from being hit with tolls right away. Whether larger fleets need a higher chance of being stopped is TBD pending playtesting with larger fleets :)
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Just occurred to me that Easy mode allows Medusa and Mule start, which exceeds the small fleet limit defined by the blog.
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What happens when you can't pay the tolls?
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Just occurred to me that Easy mode allows Medusa and Mule start, which exceeds the small fleet limit defined by the blog.
Good point. I'll probably have to look at the starting ships, anyway; will keep that in mind.
What happens when you can't pay the tolls?
Reputation hit.
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Will a customs inspection fleet leave you alone if...say you cruise in with 3 Onslaughts and a Atlas full illegal goods (they overwhelmed)? Or would a destroyer and a couple of frigates acting as customs inspectors be ballsy enough to scan you?
They'll still try to inspect. What will happen then is you'll have the choice of either complying, trying to disengage (in which case they'll harass you -> CR loss, some rep loss for you), or engaging them (in which case they'll run, and this is going to drop the relationship to hostile right away). They've got the weight of the faction's authority behind them, and as long as there aren't open hostilities, there's no reason to run. And if there *are* open hostilities, the question of a customs inspection doesn't come up.
And, if you've got a fleet that heavy, you're not going to be able to sneak in, so punching through isn't really an option. What kind of black market player is going to want to trade with you after making that much noise? That's just asking to be taken down by the authorities.
If the relationship is still at "suspicious" after you were harassed and got away, then you *will* be able to dock legally and trade. Can think of that as sort of muscling the patrol, but not quite to the point where word gets around and it gets really bad. Still, hmm. Let me note this down/think about it a bit.
It would be cool if, when an inspector was heavily outgunned and runs (and successfully gets away), if a custom fleet was spawned with the sole purpose of hunting down the reported smuggler super fleet (I.E., you.) The fleet could also have a very limited lifespan, so it would return to base and despawn if it doesn't find you in say two or three days (or whatever is reasonable). If the fleet catches you, you it acts like a normal inspector fleet ( well, with a lot of firepower ), letting you cooperate, evade, or resist (though let's be honest, if evading were really a viable option, you wouldn't be talking to the cops right now anyway, would you?) If you cooperate, and there's nothing illegal aboard, then it could drop the charges. "Looks like our information was bad" kind of response.
It would provide a reason for a diversified fleet since an Onslaught isn't going to catch a Lasher or whatever, and give high volume smuggling an even more desperate feel. (E.G., you've got to unload those goods somewhere, or the fuzz are going to put you in a fight far more dangerous and rep-reducing than you are potentially prepared for)
Granted, I'm not sure the idea fits with how inspectors are planned to work, but being chased by the po-po is fun!
Also, modpocalypse aside, I think a lot of the mod authors are going to have a complete blast with all the new features they have to play with once they get their stuff sorted.
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I'm not sure i understand the reasoning behind being tolled even if you're doing nothing illegal. ( or did i misconstrue that?)
While i'm not an expert at dictatorships in space based on giant ships, in the real world if a cop stops you and finds nothing wrong they send you on your way usually with an apology or if you're really inconvenienced, like say being jailed wrongly they pay you a settlement to atone for their error, not the other way around.
Is it entirely down to how the military is run? for example dictatorships like the hegemony will toll you regardless while someone with morales like independents would apologize and leave without giving you further trouble? I realize this would also work on a inspector by inspector basis with different personalities but let's not get into that.
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I'd imagine its similar to being taxed. They need the money to keep their ships running and their soldiers fed. In return, you get a "safe" space to trade in, and a hanger to dock in, ect.
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These aren't police. They're more like border patrol/customs units. The fee is either extortion, a security tax, a mix of both, or perhaps some other tax.
But, as I said, they aren't police.
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But you're in their space, using up all their... well, space!
I think the tolls add to the semi-feudal feel that seems to be the aim of Starsector's background fiction. They're taxing you for flying around in space because they need the money, and the fact that you're flying around in space proves you can pay. More to the point, they're not going to get any off you from poll tax or local housing tax or any of the other many forms - at BEST they can hope for the tariffs for trade. Those are pretty harsh as well, which implies all of the factions would prefer stability and control over freer trade and independent travelling.
You might well have a point with the independents, mind you. Maybe they and the pirates, should either be "We like you, you may come and go as you will" or "We don't like you, prepare to be boarded/destroyed"?
On the other topic, I agree that after the Modpocalypse passes, the results there are going to be amazing!
(Edit: It wouldn't let me post, people kept adding new posts before mine :) Took three tries!)
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Very interesting post. This update is looking amazing :)
Right now, you can only get hit with a toll once every 30 days within any given system. I'll probably change it so that it's once a month per system per faction, though - otherwise, it's exploitable, as you could get stopped on purpose by a faction that doesn't consider your cargo illegal and then have free reign for a month.
I may not be interpreting this correctly, but wouldn't that still be exploitable anyway? Couldn't you get yourself inspected by the Hegemony in Corvus while you have nothing to hide, then move as much contraband as you want to the orbital dockyard for an entire month without any risk?
Seems to me like it should be based entirely on chance. That way there's always an unpredictable risk of inspection.
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I think the tolls add to the semi-feudal feel that seems to be the aim of Starsector's background fiction. They're taxing you for flying around in space because they need the money, and the fact that you're flying around in space proves you can pay. More to the point, they're not going to get any off you from poll tax or local housing tax or any of the other many forms - at BEST they can hope for the tariffs for trade. Those are pretty harsh as well, which implies all of the factions would prefer stability and control over freer trade and independent travelling.
I recall that I rambled about the toll towers of the Rhine Raubritters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robber_baron) at quite some length to Alex via email, so yes, totally *this*.
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Very interesting post. This update is looking amazing :)
Right now, you can only get hit with a toll once every 30 days within any given system. I'll probably change it so that it's once a month per system per faction, though - otherwise, it's exploitable, as you could get stopped on purpose by a faction that doesn't consider your cargo illegal and then have free reign for a month.
I may not be interpreting this correctly, but wouldn't that still be exploitable anyway? Couldn't you get yourself inspected by the Hegemony in Corvus while you have nothing to hide, then move as much contraband as you want to the orbital dockyard for an entire month without any risk?
Seems to me like it should be based entirely on chance. That way there's always an unpredictable risk of inspection.
Simple enough fix - allow customs to scan as often as their algorithm would make them and just don't charge the toll for any scans past the first in a given month. Depending on how practical it is to store ships a legal merchant might be able to game this by running a Lasher up to pay their tolls before grabbing their Atlas armada but unless the tolls are exorbitantly high and ship storage is free and convenient then it probably wouldn't be worth the time (as in you would literally make more money just paying the fee and using the saved time to do more trading).
The gradual reputation decay from black market activities actually makes a lot of sense and is a great way to abstract that maybe you never get caught with a box of organs in the trunk but you always make a trip to see Shady Joe whenever you're in town.
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Very interesting post. This update is looking amazing :)
Right now, you can only get hit with a toll once every 30 days within any given system. I'll probably change it so that it's once a month per system per faction, though - otherwise, it's exploitable, as you could get stopped on purpose by a faction that doesn't consider your cargo illegal and then have free reign for a month.
I may not be interpreting this correctly, but wouldn't that still be exploitable anyway? Couldn't you get yourself inspected by the Hegemony in Corvus while you have nothing to hide, then move as much contraband as you want to the orbital dockyard for an entire month without any risk?
Seems to me like it should be based entirely on chance. That way there's always an unpredictable risk of inspection.
Simple enough fix - allow customs to scan as often as their algorithm would make them and just don't charge the toll for any scans past the first in a given month. Depending on how practical it is to store ships a legal merchant might be able to game this by running a Lasher up to pay their tolls before grabbing their Atlas armada but unless the tolls are exorbitantly high and ship storage is free and convenient then it probably wouldn't be worth the time (as in you would literally make more money just paying the fee and using the saved time to do more trading).
The gradual reputation decay from black market activities actually makes a lot of sense and is a great way to abstract that maybe you never get caught with a box of organs in the trunk but you always make a trip to see Shady Joe whenever you're in town.
Good idea - it would take quite a bit of effort to exploit that. A possible solution even is that you pay the difference in fleet size on future scans ("oh, your Lasher is good for this month, but that Atlas is unregistered!").
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Honestly, I'm not too worried about the tolls. I think Alex has really good taste as far as mechanics go and I think this will work out well.
Also thanks for the explanation of the delayed black market reputation loss. That actually makes a lot of sense.
I think that adding an ability to wait in port for X amt of days/weeks should be an option (for trade oriented players), maybe with a handy slider to determine wait time. This would allow you to possibly wait for new events if you didn't want to pass time by fighting. Also it would make the repairing at dock actually take "real" game time. Waiting at port would cost you a slightly reduced amount of supplies/day, plus docking fees charged by the port for every day you were there perhaps? This would make the game a bit more realistic, and the player would have to carefully weigh the possibility of new/good trade events appearing/repairing their ships versus the price of docking fees/supply use for waiting. Could be an interesting mechanic.
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I recall that I rambled about the toll towers of the Rhine Raubritters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robber_baron) at quite some length to Alex via email, so yes, totally *this*.
It would be lovely if this was addressed by ingame lore and characters, so the player is given to understand that this is far from what you might understand as legitimate taxes. I'd imagine that these toll are a pretty big bone of contention between factions with different ideologies.
Which brings me to the question: Will there be any difference in how different factions handle station tariffs and fleet tolls? Aside from pirates, of course. I'd imagine some semi-independent border systems to be much less strict (and organized) about such things than the Hegemony.
Gameplay wise, the tolling puts further emphasis on fleet movement on the system view. Will there be any changes to account for that?
At the moment it still seems pretty basic, especially the AI (no intercept flight path, all-or-nothing detection based solely on range, no memory of you when that range is left, no awareness of secondary threads when fleeing from a primary threat...).
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Honestly, I'm not too worried about the tolls. I think Alex has really good taste as far as mechanics go and I think this will work out well.
Also thanks for the explanation of the delayed black market reputation loss. That actually makes a lot of sense.
I think that adding an ability to wait in port for X amt of days/weeks should be an option (for trade oriented players), maybe with a handy slider to determine wait time. This would allow you to possibly wait for new events if you didn't want to pass time by fighting. Also it would make the repairing at dock actually take "real" game time. Waiting at port would cost you a slightly reduced amount of supplies/day, plus docking fees charged by the port for every day you were there perhaps? This would make the game a bit more realistic, and the player would have to carefully weigh the possibility of new/good trade events appearing/repairing their ships versus the price of docking fees/supply use for waiting. Could be an interesting mechanic.
I guess that this will be available for modders once 0.65 comes out. At least there will be waiting times in the game (we saw that while hacking the relay station few month ago), so these may be easily added for any dialogue option at station.
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I disagree slightly with the article's assessment of where the balance point between a supplier and a consumer of certain goods is. If they did balance out so that the prices for both are the same, and the tariffs at either end actually mean you'd make a loss transporting that freight--well, then, nobody else is going to be daft enough to make that run either, the consumer will rapidly run out of the goods they're after, and the price will go up again. If there's an equilibrium point it will be at a level where there's a profit to be made shipping from the supplier to the consumer, but possibly only in bulk (so a guy with several large freighters in their fleet might still be able to do it, but the Han Solo-types won't).
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Factotum: The point there is that, as an independent trader, you have to pay the tariffs. Government sponsored trade fleets don't. Big corporate trade fleets that can afford to lobby politicians for special exemptions, don't. So, yeah, as a small independent trader running around with a single fleet, you have to live at the edges of things, taking advantage of events, maybe smuggling or bounty hunting a bit on the side... but that doesn't mean there aren't people still making a profit when the prices are nearly even.
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So, since factions tend to look the other way if you're friendly with them, does that mean someone could tear a faction down from the inside? Would it be possible to become well-liked with the Tri-Tachyon and then do some smuggling runs and epicly destabilize their main trade markets without too much reputation loss? It would be a fun roleplay thing to do.
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Very interesting post. This update is looking amazing :)
Right now, you can only get hit with a toll once every 30 days within any given system. I'll probably change it so that it's once a month per system per faction, though - otherwise, it's exploitable, as you could get stopped on purpose by a faction that doesn't consider your cargo illegal and then have free reign for a month.
I may not be interpreting this correctly, but wouldn't that still be exploitable anyway? Couldn't you get yourself inspected by the Hegemony in Corvus while you have nothing to hide, then move as much contraband as you want to the orbital dockyard for an entire month without any risk?
Seems to me like it should be based entirely on chance. That way there's always an unpredictable risk of inspection.
Simple enough fix - allow customs to scan as often as their algorithm would make them and just don't charge the toll for any scans past the first in a given month. Depending on how practical it is to store ships a legal merchant might be able to game this by running a Lasher up to pay their tolls before grabbing their Atlas armada but unless the tolls are exorbitantly high and ship storage is free and convenient then it probably wouldn't be worth the time (as in you would literally make more money just paying the fee and using the saved time to do more trading).
The gradual reputation decay from black market activities actually makes a lot of sense and is a great way to abstract that maybe you never get caught with a box of organs in the trunk but you always make a trip to see Shady Joe whenever you're in town.
Good idea - it would take quite a bit of effort to exploit that. A possible solution even is that you pay the difference in fleet size on future scans ("oh, your Lasher is good for this month, but that Atlas is unregistered!").
Good point/interesting ideas; let me give that a bit more thought.
Also thanks for the explanation of the delayed black market reputation loss. That actually makes a lot of sense.
Cool!
I think that adding an ability to wait in port for X amt of days/weeks should be an option (for trade oriented players), maybe with a handy slider to determine wait time. This would allow you to possibly wait for new events if you didn't want to pass time by fighting. Also it would make the repairing at dock actually take "real" game time. Waiting at port would cost you a slightly reduced amount of supplies/day, plus docking fees charged by the port for every day you were there perhaps? This would make the game a bit more realistic, and the player would have to carefully weigh the possibility of new/good trade events appearing/repairing their ships versus the price of docking fees/supply use for waiting. Could be an interesting mechanic.
Yeah, that sort of thing makes sense/sounds good, but it's not exactly central to making anything work, so I'd rather spend that time on something that's required to get the release out - for now, anyway. There'll probably be a more dedicated pass at expanding planet/port interactions at some point.
Which brings me to the question: Will there be any difference in how different factions handle station tariffs and fleet tolls? Aside from pirates, of course. I'd imagine some semi-independent border systems to be much less strict (and organized) about such things than the Hegemony.
Right now, the numbers/behaviors are all set the same, but they're adjustable per faction.
Gameplay wise, the tolling puts further emphasis on fleet movement on the system view. Will there be any changes to account for that?
At the moment it still seems pretty basic, especially the AI (no intercept flight path, all-or-nothing detection based solely on range, no memory of you when that range is left, no awareness of secondary threads when fleeing from a primary threat...).
I have the same concern, but no, there won't be any changes. Or many changes, anyway. I don't think fleet movement on the campaign level is something you can bandaid into being "good", it's going to take a more dedicated effort and a bunch of different mechanics coming together.
Factotum: The point there is that, as an independent trader, you have to pay the tariffs. Government sponsored trade fleets don't. Big corporate trade fleets that can afford to lobby politicians for special exemptions, don't. So, yeah, as a small independent trader running around with a single fleet, you have to live at the edges of things, taking advantage of events, maybe smuggling or bounty hunting a bit on the side... but that doesn't mean there aren't people still making a profit when the prices are nearly even.
Yeah, very much that.
As a side note... I did say the prices stabiize where they're the same in the post, but that's not actually true. There's some difference, and it grows more pronounced with longer distances between markets. It's just not nearly enough to overcome 30% tariffs on both buying and selling.
So, since factions tend to look the other way if you're friendly with them, does that mean someone could tear a faction down from the inside? Would it be possible to become well-liked with the Tri-Tachyon and then do some smuggling runs and epicly destabilize their main trade markets without too much reputation loss? It would be a fun roleplay thing to do.
I don't see why not :)
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Two more questions: How are the "normal" prices going to be compared to the current prices?
And how "big" are bounty targets going to get? Could we possibly get something along the lines of an Onslaught? And are they going to be single ships or could they be fleets as well?
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Two more questions: How are the "normal" prices going to be compared to the current prices?
Could you rephrase/elaborate? I'm not sure exactly what you're asking.
And how "big" are bounty targets going to get? Could we possibly get something along the lines of an Onslaught? And are they going to be single ships or could they be fleets as well?
The way bounties work is a market will declare it for a system, and taking on any enemies of that faction in/near the system will give you a bounty based on the ships you destroyed or disabled. It's not a bounty for a specific ship or fleet (though that's a possibility for later on!)
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Two more questions: How are the "normal" prices going to be compared to the current prices?
Could you rephrase/elaborate? I'm not sure exactly what you're asking.
And how "big" are bounty targets going to get? Could we possibly get something along the lines of an Onslaught? And are they going to be single ships or could they be fleets as well?
The way bounties work is a market will declare it for a system, and taking on any enemies of that faction in/near the system will give you a bounty based on the ships you destroyed or disabled. It's not a bounty for a specific ship or fleet (though that's a possibility for later on!)
I like the way Uomoz has handled the ship/fleet bounties in UsS, and I think it would work well alongside a more generalized 'war bounty' for any ships of a given faction. What I mean is that the generalized bounty could reward cash based on number of targets killed, but obviously not at a fantastic rate (can't be bankrupting the empire on mercenaries, now can we?) whereas specific targets could award much greater rewards, such as rare weapons, valuable cargo, or ships, as those marks are considered high priority targets by the issuing party.
Even without individual target contacts though, I am super excited for the bounty system :D ("Wait, you're not only going to let me kill him, but pay me for it too? Right on!")
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Yeah, the way I see the "war bounty" (good name, btw!) system is as the first step for that sort of thing. Just don't want to get too far into it yet, with economy being much of the focus.
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Two more questions: How are the "normal" prices going to be compared to the current prices?
Could you rephrase/elaborate? I'm not sure exactly what you're asking.
What I am asking is what will the prices (both buying and selling) of ships, supplies and crew be now that there is a 30% tarrif. Is it going to be the same as we have now?
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Ah, I see - almost certainly not. Going to start an extensive balancing pass over prices/income/salvage/etc soon.
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Well if you need any beta testers to help with the balancing etc. I know a few hundred guys...
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I recall that I rambled about the toll towers of the Rhine Raubritters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robber_baron) at quite some length to Alex via email, so yes, totally *this*.
It would be lovely if this was addressed by ingame lore and characters, so the player is given to understand that this is far from what you might understand as legitimate taxes. I'd imagine that these toll are a pretty big bone of contention between factions with different ideologies.
Agree completely. I don't see anything wrong with bully-tolls as a mechanic, but it seems strange that every faction would do it. Making factions leverage taxes in different ways seems like a good way to diversify them in a more meaningful way than just flavor.
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I'm pretty sure that the entire game is already in an extended development-testing cycle already.
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A question. Hypothetical situation: we have two planets that are economically dependent from each other, and so they trade a lot. This means there will be a lots of trading fleets flying betwen them. But it is not that they trade everything - they just trade some specifical goods betwen themselfs. Now, let's say I like to pirate stuf for profit. If I will attack, and succesfully destroy (disable) trade fleet, what loot will I get? So far we are getting lot's of credits, tons of supply, some fuel and a few weapons. Will it now change? Will we start getting as loot traded goods in described situation? Can we expect that trading goods to be mostly of same type that is being traded betwen said planets?
Also - I do remember that there are plans of making fighting with other fleets to be rather economical burden, than way to earn money. Now with addition of trade and smugling, we will get another way of earning credits. Will that influence loot obtained from defeting other fleets? Or is it still unafected in this update?
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Right now, the numbers/behaviors are all set the same, but they're adjustable per faction.
I very much hope that it is not just 'adjustable', but also can be adjusted inside the campaign at some specific conditions (becoming allies, buying a trading license, earning price drop off for some specific deeds and etc.)
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If I damage my reputation with one faction by smuggling, will this have an impact on my reputation with other factions? Particularly those that like the faction that suspects me of smuggling? For example, if the Sindrian Diktat and the Hegemony are on good terms, and I get caught (or am strongly suspected of) smuggling within Hegemony space, will my standing with the Sindrians fall?
Also, regarding the war bounties thing: perhaps you could require that a player purchase a privateering license before being able to earn a bounty on predominantly non-combat ships of the faction against whom the bounty is being offered.
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A question. Hypothetical situation: we have two planets that are economically dependent from each other, and so they trade a lot. This means there will be a lots of trading fleets flying betwen them. But it is not that they trade everything - they just trade some specifical goods betwen themselfs. Now, let's say I like to pirate stuf for profit. If I will attack, and succesfully destroy (disable) trade fleet, what loot will I get? So far we are getting lot's of credits, tons of supply, some fuel and a few weapons. Will it now change? Will we start getting as loot traded goods in described situation? Can we expect that trading goods to be mostly of same type that is being traded betwen said planets?
It keeps track of what's actually being traded/transported, and that factors into the salvage.
Also - I do remember that there are plans of making fighting with other fleets to be rather economical burden, than way to earn money. Now with addition of trade and smugling, we will get another way of earning credits. Will that influence loot obtained from defeting other fleets? Or is it still unafected in this update?
As I mentioned a couple of posts back, there's going to be an extensive balancing pass there. So, yes, it'll change, and likely a lot, but I can't say exactly how. The days of supply pinatas are most likely over, though.
Right now, the numbers/behaviors are all set the same, but they're adjustable per faction.
I very much hope that it is not just 'adjustable', but also can be adjusted inside the campaign at some specific conditions (becoming allies, buying a trading license, earning price drop off for some specific deeds and etc.)
Yeah, it's all moddable, with varying degrees of ease/difficulty. The tariff is a MutableStat (per market, with the possibility of adjusting it per-submarket). The customs inspection interaction is done in the way a mod would do it, and can be replaced wholesale (or adjusted, though that can be trickier depending on what aspect of it one wants to tweak).
If I damage my reputation with one faction by smuggling, will this have an impact on my reputation with other factions? Particularly those that like the faction that suspects me of smuggling? For example, if the Sindrian Diktat and the Hegemony are on good terms, and I get caught (or am strongly suspected of) smuggling within Hegemony space, will my standing with the Sindrians fall?
Not right now, no. Probably eventually.
Also, regarding the war bounties thing: perhaps you could require that a player purchase a privateering license before being able to earn a bounty on predominantly non-combat ships of the faction against whom the bounty is being offered.
Yeah, lots of ways to expand that :) Not going to be tempted into doing any of them for the next release! ... I hope.
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As I mentioned a couple of posts back, there's going to be an extensive balancing pass there. So, yes, it'll change, and likely a lot, but I can't say exactly how. The days of supply pinatas are most likely over, though.
I think I'm gonna go cry in my corner now...
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The days of supply pinatas are most likely over, though.
Good riddance! I am sick of filling most of my fleet with slow freighters to loot everything from one battle without crashing LR to 0%, and relying on one Medusa to do all the fighting, all of time, while fighting with objectives (due to civilians bloating my fleet size), just for optimal play for my Combat/Technology character.
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Right now, you can only get hit with a toll once every 30 days within any given system. I'll probably change it so that it's once a month per system per faction, though - otherwise, it's exploitable, as you could get stopped on purpose by a faction that doesn't consider your cargo illegal and then have free reign for a month.
A time base system can be played, how about just a simple 'flag' that lasts until you dock. Not like you will specifically target freighters with illegal goods after you get scanned to sell back without the danger of getting inspected again. That just seems a very round-about and hard way to make credits when you could be doing almost anything else.
As for the frequency itself, to be fair i'd consider it differently while still tied, as a separate event, to reputation. Say you have a base standard 50% chance of getting searched per faction initially. If you get searched and are found with contraband, it gets bumped up to 60% chance, with that faction, and say it scales down universally with other factions (55% say), up to whatever limit you see reasonable, 90%/100%. If you often smuggle and get caught smuggling, you'll be targeted more often, and eventually raise that chance even with factions you don't trade with.. 'being notorious'. This will fit in with the reputation system that if you do get caught and they look the other way, it won't affect that chance more.
If you engage in legal trade, get inspected, and found all clear, that percentage drops. If you carry food to starving children and medicine to far-flung worlds, i'm sure everyone eventually will think of you as a trader-saint, even if you do eventually end up smuggling some drugs with the medicine. Still, this should be capped at say 10% just to make sure you can't 'saint' yourself in consequence-free smuggling.
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Aside from that, any way there could be a situation where i'd suck in the fines and STILL make a profit off smuggling? That'd be broken. I don't think you mentioned if the inspectors confiscate your contraband or not? If you can't pay the tolls they should just rob you blind.
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Oh, and as a last thing, would it be possible to target periods of high activity, when inspectors are overrun with scanning other fleets (if that even happens), so you can make a break for it? I'd love a lot more interaction and gameplay on the galaxy map.
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@Cosmitz:
On the confiscation thingy, from what Benjamin Petty is saying in the final screenshot from the blog, goods DO get confiscated.
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I'm not sure how much I like once per month scans (unless it's scan whenever, and tolls once a month), since you can go into a system, get scanned, then grab whatever contraband you want with no consequence
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As far as I get it - you get tolled once per month, but can be scanned quite regularly within this month depending on your standing with the faction. And another thing I learned - flying a one-ship (frigate?) fleet wont trigger scans and tolls, but probably wont bring much of a profit (even if smuggling) to be a viable option for a player long enough after start.
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As I mentioned a couple of posts back, there's going to be an extensive balancing pass there. So, yes, it'll change, and likely a lot, but I can't say exactly how. The days of supply pinatas are most likely over, though.
I think I'm gonna go cry in my corner now...
And I could not be more happy about THIS than I am :) Finnaly! :D
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It keeps track of what's actually being traded/transported, and that factors into the salvage.
Any idea yet if boarding will factor into this?
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Great. Now I don't have to chase down pirates(and blow them to bits) to make a living.
Question: How much is the average profit a starting fleet(a medusa & a mule) will make if they only engage in legal trades?
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Just wondering how close are we for the next update? ??? ??? ???
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Just wondering how close are we for the next update? ??? ??? ???
Shush you gonna scare him* :P
*Alex - dev dude :D
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When It's Ready... that agonizing time which only seems to get further away the more we yearn. That said, implicitly quite soon. I'm up to refreshing the blog about 3-4 times a day just in case... I'd guess at within a month? Could be entirely wrong on either end though!
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This really raises some questions about communication abilities of ships out in the void. If I get pulled over by a customs inspector while I'm smuggling and blast him to peices with no witnesses, do they automatically know you killed them back home or do they just come up with a lost patrol? Do they have instantaneous (ish) communication in system or black boxes or something?
Edit: also, will there be any possibility of trickery such as sneaking into a market amidst a neutral trade fleet to kind of blend in with traffic?
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This really raises some questions about communication abilities of ships out in the void. If I get pulled over by a customs inspector while I'm smuggling and blast him to peices with no witnesses, do they automatically know you killed them back home or do they just come up with a lost patrol? Do they have instantaneous (ish) communication in system or black boxes or something?
Edit: also, will there be any possibility of trickery such as sneaking into a market amidst a neutral trade fleet to kind of blend in with traffic?
Normal speed of light communication (aka radio) would be perfectly sufficient to inform anybody in system within minutes. For further distances there are comm relays (http://fractalsoftworks.com/2014/04/16/comm-relays/).
Edit: also, will there be any possibility of trickery such as sneaking into a market amidst a neutral trade fleet to kind of blend in with traffic?
Doubt it, but you could probably do it inside a fleet that's neutral to you and hostile to the market.
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Yeah, Lore wise comm relays use the exact same tech as the Tachyon lance, except lower power. This allows them to communicate long distances almost instantly. IIRC
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Yeah, Lore wise comm relays use the exact same tech as the Tachyon lance, except lower power. This allows them to communicate long distances almost instantly. IIRC
That would be news to me, got a source?
I had assumed they'd send signals through hyperspace.
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Yeah, Lore wise comm relays use the exact same tech as the Tachyon lance, except lower power. This allows them to communicate long distances almost instantly. IIRC
That would be news to me, got a source?
I had assumed they'd send signals through hyperspace.
See the description of the Tachyon Lance. It's explained there...
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For those who don't have the time to review the codex:
Uncanny range and damage capability make this burst operated beam deliver a devastating amount of cascading EMP damage to targets at extreme ranges.
A weapon so rare and powerful that it has achieved mythical status in the Sector, the Tachyon Lance uses the same core technology as all FTL communication systems, but with a twist. Instead of using the hyperdimensional properties of the tachyon particle for communication, n-brane manipulation and anti-plasma generators create a charged tachyon stream that travels in hyperspace. Minimum energy requirements are set at 35 terawatts. This amount of power can only be generated for a few seconds by the largest power capacitors, which are housed within the weapon system.
Unlike the beams fired from normal beam weapons, the tachyon stream is not lensed or altered in any way - in fact once the initial tachyon marker is actuated the reaction takes on a life of its own, rapidly consuming the power stored in the capacitors and unleashing destruction. When normal space is exposed to such high levels of anti-plasma, a combined electro-magnetic, gravitic and thermal cavitation effect shreds anything that stands in its way, while also severely damaging nearby electronics equipment.
Normal tachyon streams used for communication have infinite range. It is not entirely clear why this weapon has limited range, and it is suspected that it is a limit somehow hardcoded into the baryonic emitter assembly by thoughtful and practical Domain weapon designers.
After all, if the weapon had infinite range, how would you know you are not hitting an unintended target thousands of light years away?
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Any special bonuses planned for phase ships regarding smuggling or detection of illegal cargo onboard?
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Yeah, Lore wise comm relays use the exact same tech as the Tachyon lance, except lower power. This allows them to communicate long distances almost instantly. IIRC
For those who don't have the time to review the codex:
Uncanny range and damage capability make this burst operated beam deliver a devastating amount of cascading EMP damage to targets at extreme ranges.
A weapon so rare and powerful that it has achieved mythical status in the Sector, the Tachyon Lance uses the same core technology as all FTL communication systems, but with a twist. Instead of using the hyperdimensional properties of the tachyon particle for communication, n-brane manipulation and anti-plasma generators create a charged tachyon stream that travels in hyperspace. Minimum energy requirements are set at 35 terawatts. This amount of power can only be generated for a few seconds by the largest power capacitors, which are housed within the weapon system.
Unlike the beams fired from normal beam weapons, the tachyon stream is not lensed or altered in any way - in fact once the initial tachyon marker is actuated the reaction takes on a life of its own, rapidly consuming the power stored in the capacitors and unleashing destruction. When normal space is exposed to such high levels of anti-plasma, a combined electro-magnetic, gravitic and thermal cavitation effect shreds anything that stands in its way, while also severely damaging nearby electronics equipment.
Normal tachyon streams used for communication have infinite range. It is not entirely clear why this weapon has limited range, and it is suspected that it is a limit somehow hardcoded into the baryonic emitter assembly by thoughtful and practical Domain weapon designers.
After all, if the weapon had infinite range, how would you know you are not hitting an unintended target thousands of light years away?
For what it's worth, this doesn't mean that the only difference between the tachyon streams used for communications and the tachyon lance is the power level. LEDs and laser diodes use the same 'core technology,' but the difference between an LED and an LD goes far beyond the power applied to or output by the system. For that matter, depending on the LED and LD in question, it's entirely within reason that the LED might be at least as powerful than the LD, in terms of total emitted energy or the power applied to the system.
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Yep, the power level is not an only difference... Anyway, what he wanted to say is that the tachyon transmission has an infinite range.
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(Sorry for the delayed response here. Right then, going to dig right in. If I miss something, please let me know.)
As for the frequency itself, to be fair i'd consider it differently while still tied, as a separate event, to reputation. Say you have a base standard 50% chance of getting searched per faction initially. If you get searched and are found with contraband, it gets bumped up to 60% chance, with that faction, and say it scales down universally with other factions (55% say), up to whatever limit you see reasonable, 90%/100%. If you often smuggle and get caught smuggling, you'll be targeted more often, and eventually raise that chance even with factions you don't trade with.. 'being notorious'. This will fit in with the reputation system that if you do get caught and they look the other way, it won't affect that chance more.
If you engage in legal trade, get inspected, and found all clear, that percentage drops. If you carry food to starving children and medicine to far-flung worlds, i'm sure everyone eventually will think of you as a trader-saint, even if you do eventually end up smuggling some drugs with the medicine. Still, this should be capped at say 10% just to make sure you can't 'saint' yourself in consequence-free smuggling.
Hmm. This... basically sounds equivalent to the reputation system, as the chance of being inspected already depends on your standing. If you get caught, your standing drops, and the chance goes up. It's nearly identictal :)
Aside from that, any way there could be a situation where i'd suck in the fines and STILL make a profit off smuggling? That'd be broken. I don't think you mentioned if the inspectors confiscate your contraband or not? If you can't pay the tolls they should just rob you blind.
I don't know if it'd be broken, but whatever contraband is found does get confiscated. Unless you refuse to hand it over, in which case you take a much bigger rep hit.
Oh, and as a last thing, would it be possible to target periods of high activity, when inspectors are overrun with scanning other fleets (if that even happens), so you can make a break for it? I'd love a lot more interaction and gameplay on the galaxy map.
If there are enemy fleets around, patrols won't perform inspections, so there's that.
I'm not sure how much I like once per month scans (unless it's scan whenever, and tolls once a month), since you can go into a system, get scanned, then grab whatever contraband you want with no consequence
I'm not sure you ever *want* to get scanned; that's a lot of credits down the drain. But yeah, tweaking some things re: that.
It keeps track of what's actually being traded/transported, and that factors into the salvage.
Any idea yet if boarding will factor into this?
Only in the way it does now, increasing the amount of stuff you get from salvage a bit.
Question: How much is the average profit a starting fleet(a medusa & a mule) will make if they only engage in legal trades?
Can't really say, since that's down to that balancing pass I've been talking about. Also, I'm not sure what kind of answer you'd expect here. "Some?" :) It also depends on what you're trading, whether you're taking advantage of events, whether you're successfully avoiding tolls, etc etc.
Any special bonuses planned for phase ships regarding smuggling or detection of illegal cargo onboard?
No - that might factor in later if phase ships get special campaign-level abilities, but for now, I think adding special cases like this for phase ships would just be adding baggage to sort through later.
This really raises some questions about communication abilities of ships out in the void. If I get pulled over by a customs inspector while I'm smuggling and blast him to peices with no witnesses, do they automatically know you killed them back home or do they just come up with a lost patrol? Do they have instantaneous (ish) communication in system or black boxes or something?
This is one of those things where gameplay squarely trumps any sort of realism. I mean, you can imagine how word gets around (rumors, your own crew talking, black boxes, distress signals, etc), but actually simulating much of that would, I think, be going way overboard.
Edit: also, will there be any possibility of trickery such as sneaking into a market amidst a neutral trade fleet to kind of blend in with traffic?
Hmm. Messing around now with making patrols occasionally inspect NPC fleets (which would create a "distraction"); will see how that goes.
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As for the frequency itself, to be fair i'd consider it differently while still tied, as a separate event, to reputation. Say you have a base standard 50% chance of getting searched per faction initially. If you get searched and are found with contraband, it gets bumped up to 60% chance, with that faction, and say it scales down universally with other factions (55% say), up to whatever limit you see reasonable, 90%/100%. If you often smuggle and get caught smuggling, you'll be targeted more often, and eventually raise that chance even with factions you don't trade with.. 'being notorious'. This will fit in with the reputation system that if you do get caught and they look the other way, it won't affect that chance more.
If you engage in legal trade, get inspected, and found all clear, that percentage drops. If you carry food to starving children and medicine to far-flung worlds, i'm sure everyone eventually will think of you as a trader-saint, even if you do eventually end up smuggling some drugs with the medicine. Still, this should be capped at say 10% just to make sure you can't 'saint' yourself in consequence-free smuggling.
Hmm. This... basically sounds equivalent to the reputation system, as the chance of being inspected already depends on your standing. If you get caught, your standing drops, and the chance goes up. It's nearly identictal :)
Hm. I was thinking of an extra layer of roleplay and gameplay with 'notoriety', separated as such from faction reputation. As in, that system dictates how often you're searched, while reputation handles how that will work out. So you can be a known as a generally honest guy so they'll search you less but when they do search you, if you're carrying contraband then reputation comes in, and if they dislike you, they will levy heftier fees for example. (plus a drop to your 'honest guy' status). If you're clean, as a positive standing, they may even give you rumors, since you were mentioning making events more central to the design. (plus the consequential boost to 'even more honest guy')
The cross faction mention was just so you could end up getting searched more in TriTachyon space since you've been caught more there, while keeping a low profile and a good notoriety in Luddite space for example and you'll be searched less there. But by all means, keep it universal and simple initially..
If there are enemy fleets around, patrols won't perform inspections, so there's that.
In this case, would it be possible to 'drag' a pirate fleet after you so you can 'avoid' getting searched by pure virtue of getting hounded by pirates,thus a hostile fleet? It's easy enough to match speed and to also adjust it mostly on the fly with mothballing and refitting.
Also, since we're talking about inspection fleets (Customs Fleets?), can they never go hostile if your faction drops enough? I mean, if you get past hostile, would it not be possible to interact with them since they will auto attack? They should leave the fighting to any military/police units in the area if you ask me. ;p
If i can still land on their planet/station, i should still interact normally with customs. Sure, they'll call in support after they search me, but i hope smuggling will not be hampered as such by everything of a faction auto-attacking once you drop past a certain faction point. We've been doing that in the campaign for the last few years already... :)
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I'm not sure how much I like once per month scans (unless it's scan whenever, and tolls once a month), since you can go into a system, get scanned, then grab whatever contraband you want with no consequence
I'm not sure you ever *want* to get scanned; that's a lot of credits down the drain. But yeah, tweaking some things re: that.
A fairly straightforward solution might be to have fleets scan you at random but they only toll you once a month.
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I'm not sure how much I like once per month scans (unless it's scan whenever, and tolls once a month), since you can go into a system, get scanned, then grab whatever contraband you want with no consequence
I'm not sure you ever *want* to get scanned; that's a lot of credits down the drain. But yeah, tweaking some things re: that.
A fairly straightforward solution might be to have fleets scan you at random but they only toll you once a month.
I agree. One thing though is that I would add that if you are caught with contraband, the toll should be charged again. After all, you DID just get caught with illegal goods...
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It also depends on what you're trading,whether you're taking advantage of events, whether you're successfully avoiding tolls, etc etc.
I see that my question was quite vague... Well, we'll see when it is released. Thanks!
Seems something is changed with the UI window(the one you see when you approach a fleet). Doesn't it shows the fleet compositions anymore?
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I'm not sure how much I like once per month scans (unless it's scan whenever, and tolls once a month), since you can go into a system, get scanned, then grab whatever contraband you want with no consequence
I'm not sure you ever *want* to get scanned; that's a lot of credits down the drain. But yeah, tweaking some things re: that.
A fairly straightforward solution might be to have fleets scan you at random but they only toll you once a month.
Actually, when you think about it, this exploit is not necessarily a bad thing. It makes sense that there might be a law that limits scans so that the hegemony can't just harass someone out of business. If the player can figure this out, or even better, hear about it in game at some point, then they can take advantage of the law to be a better smuggler. They will still get some reputation loss and stability loss so it isn't really cheating anyway.
Of course, we're all already in the know. :P
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In this case, would it be possible to 'drag' a pirate fleet after you so you can 'avoid' getting searched by pure virtue of getting hounded by pirates,thus a hostile fleet? It's easy enough to match speed and to also adjust it mostly on the fly with mothballing and refitting.
Sure, why not? Sounds like a solid ploy to me :)
Also, since we're talking about inspection fleets (Customs Fleets?), can they never go hostile if your faction drops enough? I mean, if you get past hostile, would it not be possible to interact with them since they will auto attack? They should leave the fighting to any military/police units in the area if you ask me. ;p
They're regular patrols otherwise. If they're hostile, they won't bother trying to inspect you but will just attack instead. Or run away.
If i can still land on their planet/station, i should still interact normally with customs. Sure, they'll call in support after they search me, but i hope smuggling will not be hampered as such by everything of a faction auto-attacking once you drop past a certain faction point. We've been doing that in the campaign for the last few years already... :)
The blog post talks about it, but basically: factions will refuse to trade with you when you're hostile, but you can still make contact with the black market if your fleet is small enough to be inconspicuous.
Seems something is changed with the UI window(the one you see when you approach a fleet). Doesn't it shows the fleet compositions anymore?
You mean the portrait in the screenshot? That's just normal for when you've opened a comm link. The starting view still shows the fleets.
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Will there be a trade permit system that allows you to trade illegal goods legally to a faction if your relationship with them is high enough?
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Not as of yet, though we'd talked about specifically this internally. It's one of those details that probably isn't warranted now, but might be useful later if it fits in nicely with something else that comes along.
However, if you're trading with the military, you'll be able to buy and sell some otherwise-illegal goods (i.e. hand weapons) that you wouldn't be able to trade in on the open market.
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God, I cannot wait for this update to come out. Not too excited about having to wait for all my mods to update though... Oh, well. I'll have this new stuff to play with! Also, I wish there was a system where you could actually officially join a faction's fleet, which means you have to stay with them for a few cycles, you get access to their ships-of-the-line (battleships/battlecruisers), you would be given orders and you could choose to follow them and stuff. As you rank up, you get more access to more free stuff, seeing as you can't really attack anyone but your enemies. Well, you could, but the other faction would declare war on your faction, and you would most likely be kicked. Also, dreadnoughts! Want. Want now. They could be like super-capital ships that you could launch frigates and light cruisers from, and when they dock, they could be slightly repaired in terms of armor and structural integrity. Also, don't you just hate it when you just run out of ammo for your Hephaestus Assault guns? You can reload partially there. It would add another level of strategy to a fight, and extend them. But dreadnoughts are super-capital ships. And super-expensive. And super-slow. So, they're really not that viable in battle, unless they have very long-range beam weaponry. Also, they should be really survivable.TM But, you ask, what if you outfit all of your guys with Reapers? That'd be really OP... hmm. Well, the same goes with cannon weaponry, I guess. Partially reloaded. Also, the amount ships can be repaired should depend on the dreadnought's combat readiness, which can go all the way up to 100%, even if your fleet is entirely composed of green crew. Which shouldn't happen if you can afford a dreadnought. Ooh! Another idea! Shields should have something like... lattice... uhh..... lattice integrity? I dunno, something fancy like that. In addition to having flux. The lattice integrity should degrade slowly when being subjected to enemy fire. Most of the damage should be translated into flux, but a portion of that damage is absorbed by the actual shield, reducing "lattice integrity." That can be recharged at the dreadnought too. There are different kinds of lattices, that can absorb different amounts, like lattices that can absorb a LOT overall, but not take that much damage per hit, but there are others for which the opposite is true. It depends of your play-style. More customization! Also! Completely utterly modular ships! Actually, that's probably hard to code. I'm not really a programmer, so I don't really know how hard it is to refit all your ship's modules, modules meaning how that ship's exterior looks, and how many weapons you can fit on it, what arcs they have, and what tier and type they are. Can also increase OP, but adds mass, decreasing overall speed. Take the Atlas' cargo pods. You can switch those out for 2 small weapon ports or 1 medium. It adds firepower, but reduces cargo space. This would be useful if you trade in an unstable system where pirates are everywhere. Adds more defense, reduces cargo, but you can still pull a profit because of the unstable market, and wildly differing prices. So, adding or switching around modules can create a design that is uniquely your own, especially if you make something crazy, mixing up Hegemony and Tri-Tachyon modules. Also, I want massive slots for dreadnought super weapons that can pop off a cruiser with a projectile that hits like a space truck. Well, maybe not that overpowered, but still pretty dang powerful. Speaking of dreadnoughts still, when they are destroyed, I want them to go super-critical in their reactors or something, exploding and destroying everything smaller then a cruiser and heavily EMPing and overloading everything that's bigger. And while everyone is drifting around, I want the yay that you hear when you headshot an Uggnoy (Grunt) in Halo to play a couple seconds after, because it'd be hilarious. Then the fight resumes. Anyways, I think that's all of my ideas. I'll check back in if I have anymore. Hope the update comes out soon! ;D
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God, I cannot wait for this update to come out. Not too excited about having to wait for all my mods to update though... Oh, well. I'll have this new stuff to play with! Also, I wish bork bork bork
That pretty much turned Swedish Chef right around the point I mentioned, as that was wayyyyy too massive to read and understand, especially since you actively disincentivised reading with a lack of paragraph breaks. =)
I will note however that Suggestions should go on the Suggestions board, one suggestion per topic, after you've searched for anything that has already been suggested. I will also note that Suggestions are usually only considered if they are immediately relevant to the current development (e.g., right now, development is focused on, of course, trade and smuggling). Third is that the Blog Post is oriented towards discussion of the feature in the blog post itself.
Welcome to the boards, though!
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Oops. Well, I don't really know much about Starsector's forums. Sorry. As for the mistakes with the paragraphs, I was kinda tried when I posted it, so forgive me for that. Also, thanks for telling me about the suggestions sub-forum! :)
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Can't wait for this update to hit, keep up the good work Alex! ;D
ps- not to forget dgbaumgart with the art too!
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Maybe call it would be more clear to call it a system/faction pilot license instead of a toll? The way it's described in the blog post it sounds more like a license that can expire and has to be renewed than a toll.
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Can't wait for this update to hit, keep up the good work Alex! ;D
ps- not to forget dgbaumgart with the art too!
:)
Maybe call it would be more clear to call it a system/faction pilot license instead of a toll? The way it's described in the blog post it sounds more like a license that can expire and has to be renewed than a toll.
I think toll fits conceptually; you not being bothered about it for a while is more of implementation detail than something the player is going to be directly exposed to. Calling it a license would open up a can of worms - the player would expect to see license status, etc.