Fractal Softworks Forum

Starsector => General Discussion => Blog Posts => Topic started by: Alex on July 24, 2014, 03:36:07 PM

Title: Fleet Creation
Post by: Alex on July 24, 2014, 03:36:07 PM
Blog post here (http://fractalsoftworks.com/2014/07/24/fleet-creation/).
Title: Re: Fleet Creation
Post by: JT on July 24, 2014, 03:54:08 PM
The only observation I have so far, at least as far as trade fleets go, is that it doesn't seem to represent the "windfall" singletons that occasionally operate -- your average schmoe who thinks "by God, I can turn a profit of 500 credits a bottle if I take X to Y!" and attempts to work their way up from the bottom in a lone freighter.  While these opportunities often fail in reality, they're part and parcel of interesting science-fiction, and they provide viable targets for bandits and raiders.

Or would that simply be handled with a different, more random spawning scheme?
Title: Re: Fleet Creation
Post by: Alex on July 24, 2014, 03:57:14 PM
Its actually handled, to some degree - the size of the trade fleet depends on the trade volume going across that route in the economy sim, and smaller-size fleets have a chance to spawn as independent as opposed to faction-controlled. If it's needed in larger/more reliable numbers for gameplay reasons, that'd be a good candidate for some "hand-crafting".
Title: Re: Fleet Creation
Post by: FasterThanSleepyfish on July 24, 2014, 03:59:36 PM
So, will there be a need for .faction files with predefined fleet role stuff? And I assume that the game will handle the amount of fleets (and their ship role content) based loosely on the economy?

Good stuff ;)
Title: Re: Fleet Creation
Post by: silentstormpt on July 24, 2014, 04:09:42 PM
Why despawning said fleets after doing their "bidding". Why not instead only despawn/refit them based on its faction needs (faction wasted too much money building/upgrading the fleet, sell the older/not needed/stolen ships)?
Title: Re: Fleet Creation
Post by: Alex on July 24, 2014, 05:24:55 PM
So, will there be a need for .faction files with predefined fleet role stuff?

Yeah. There's a file with the defaults, and there's an optional element in the .faction file which can override whatever is defined in the default. New ship roles can also be added if they're needed/used by mod scripts creating their own types of fleets.

And I assume that the game will handle the amount of fleets (and their ship role content) based loosely on the economy?

Not sure what you mean, could you elaborate?


Why despawning said fleets after doing their "bidding". Why not instead only despawn/refit them based on its faction needs (faction wasted too much money building/upgrading the fleet, sell the older ships not needed ships)?

It works kind of like that for patrols - they go back and orbit the world for a while, then go out on a new mission, and only despawn if they get below a certain fleet point threshold. For trade fleets, it'd get really messy, since you need different size fleets for different trade runs, and reuse is less likely. It's added complexity without a compelling reason, I think. It's not much different functionally. It might not even be better feel-wise, since updating a fleet on the fly probably might not look better than despawn/respawn, not without some graphical changes to go with it.

If there were explicit mechanics around keeping fleets around, supporting them, upgrading them, etc, then that kind of approach would make sense.
Title: Re: Fleet Creation
Post by: kazi on July 24, 2014, 06:21:39 PM
Really excited for this next update. Although the fleet creation process isn't particularly mind-blowing (the newer versions of Exerelin and UsS already have similar systems at work), it's definitely a much needed addition that will really improve player quality of life/replayability.

Strangely enough, the part of the blog post that I was most excited about was the night time city lights for planets. It adds so much more "feeling" to things, its not even funny. I actually tried to make my own hacked version by spawning another planet (set as a star) on top of the planet I wanted to draw lights on. Ended up not including it when it became apparent that I couldn't sync up the two planet's rotation haha... the whole "cities in the middle of lakes thing" wasn't really a good look (not to mention it played havoc with hyperspace travel/jump points).

Spoiler
(http://i.imgur.com/E2EAwD9.jpg)
[close]

On the topic of "adding feeling," I think it would be cool to have the ability to add more useless junk floating through space and give them descriptions (comets, derelict hulks, alien artifacts, etc.).  One of my absolute favorite things so far from both a modding perspective and a gameplay perspective is just flying around the universe and sightseeing around all the different planets/lore people have made. It would also be pretty cool to have a codex page for factions, planets, and star systems.

I know the next update is huge, but the fact that you are now adding content gives me hope that a release is imminent-ish. I don't want to make you commit to any deadlines or anything, but do you have a feeling as to when the next update will come out? Is it weeks, a month, multiple months?
Title: Re: Fleet Creation
Post by: Alex on July 24, 2014, 07:44:54 PM
(the newer versions of Exerelin and UsS already have similar systems at work)

Not surprising at all - it's really a pretty natural approach, once you start generating fleets through code.

Strangely enough, the part of the blog post that I was most excited about was the night time city lights for planets. It adds so much more "feeling" to things, its not even funny. I actually tried to make my own hacked version by spawning another planet (set as a star) on top of the planet I wanted to draw lights on. Ended up not including it when it became apparent that I couldn't sync up the two planet's rotation haha... the whole "cities in the middle of lakes thing" wasn't really a good look (not to mention it played havoc with hyperspace travel/jump points).

Spoiler
(http://i.imgur.com/E2EAwD9.jpg)
[close]

Hah, nice, especially considering what you had to work with :) One thing to note about it is the lights layer uses a light in the opposite direction from the light coming from the star, so lights showing up in weird places on the planet surface isn't an issue - you only see them on the dark side.

On the topic of "adding feeling," I think it would be cool to have the ability to add more useless junk floating through space and give them descriptions (comets, derelict hulks, alien artifacts, etc.).  One of my absolute favorite things so far from both a modding perspective and a gameplay perspective is just flying around the universe and sightseeing around all the different planets/lore people have made. It would also be pretty cool to have a codex page for factions, planets, and star systems.

I think this is in the patch notes somewhere, but in any case, custom entities will be possible in the next release. Don't know if you caught a ring of orbital junk around Sindia in the second screenshot, but that's how those are implemented. (Playing around with the idea of using orbital junk - in addition to the hab lights - to signify habitated planets.)

Comm relays are also implemented as "custom entities", and so are some of the stations. You can add tags to say what type of thing it is, for example a "station" tag or a "comm_relay" tag are checked for in various places to allow the right set of player interactions.

I know the next update is huge, but the fact that you are now adding content gives me hope that a release is imminent-ish. I don't want to make you commit to any deadlines or anything, but do you have a feeling as to when the next update will come out? Is it weeks, a month, multiple months?

You're right re: content being indicative of where in the release cycle things are, but, you know... soon(tm) :)
Title: Re: Fleet Creation
Post by: icepick37 on July 24, 2014, 08:11:01 PM
Ah another sweet blog post. It's fun seeing how your mind works. Can't wait to play with all of this. Sounds reasonable.

What do trade fleets do on arrival? Same orbit thing? Then head back?
Title: Re: Fleet Creation
Post by: Alex on July 24, 2014, 08:20:38 PM
What do trade fleets do on arrival? Same orbit thing? Then head back?

Yep. Spawn -> load -> travel -> unload -> load -> travel -> unload -> despawn.
Title: Re: Fleet Creation
Post by: Degraine on July 24, 2014, 09:02:15 PM
Is there provision in ship roles for multiple ships fulfilling a single preference? Eg, if an outpost is really short on gear and can't even field a medium combat ship, it falls back even further to a pair of frigates, for instance. Or a strike force would prefer to have several frigates and fighter wings, but has to swap in a couple of fast destroyers in a pinch.
Title: Re: Fleet Creation
Post by: Dark.Revenant on July 24, 2014, 11:04:13 PM
Based on how it appears to be set up, that might already be possible; see the "1" next to combatMedium.
Title: Re: Fleet Creation
Post by: Debido on July 24, 2014, 11:42:40 PM
To help make the sector feel busy and make it feel alive, I'd like to see lots of 'individual' transport and courier style ships. People still need to travel from planet A to planet B whether on a high speed transport or a bus, and people need the stuff express delivered in un-catchable millennium falcon archetypes.

Title: Re: Fleet Creation
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on July 24, 2014, 11:43:27 PM
Based on how it appears to be set up, that might already be possible; see the "1" next to combatMedium.
I think that 1 is the "weight" of the choice, not the number
Title: Re: Fleet Creation
Post by: Linnis on July 25, 2014, 12:13:35 AM
... It might not even be better feel-wise, since updating a fleet on the fly probably might not look better than despawn/respawn, not without some graphical changes to go with it.

If there were explicit mechanics around keeping fleets around, supporting them, upgrading them, etc, then that kind of approach would make sense.

So instead of the ring of space junk, why not make a dynamic ring of civilian ships orbiting the planet and stations whos size increase and decrease depending on market stability that trade fleets emerge and vanish from and to.
Also can add a simple visual indicator of how well a planet is generally doing.
Title: Re: Fleet Creation
Post by: Gothars on July 25, 2014, 01:45:09 AM
- Question about procedural vs. handcrafted: AFAIK most of the Sector is going to be procedurally generated (maybe exempt from core worlds etc.). If you say something is "handcrafted", what does that mean in this context?
Does it "just" mean that you teach the algorithm a lot of special cases? For example, an event or a (set of) market condition(s) generate a fleet profile with ship roles defined specifically for this event/condition. Or do you really mean to assemble certain fleets by hand and script their behavior? (But how would they fit into a procedural world? That would only seem to make sense for things so small or so enormous that they are independent from the state of the sector, or things coming in from the outside...)


- Something else: Can you already share anything about the way fleets with no (necessarily) clear destination behave? I.e. explorers, tech mining fleets, pirates, headhunters, freelancers, maybe patrol fleets. Do you plan on some kind of search or roaming algorithm? Or will the destination be made up (pseudo-) randomly before the fleet is even generated? Maybe with waypoints?


- Putting fleets in orbit sounds neat, visually. What happens if it is are attacked, anything special about that? Modified CR, loot or even combat scenario? Support from the planet?



So instead of the ring of space junk, why not make a dynamic ring of civilian ships orbiting the planet and stations whos size increase and decrease depending on market stability that trade fleets emerge and vanish from and to.
Also can add a simple visual indicator of how well a planet is generally doing.

Debris was already a cool idea, but yeah, combining it with orbital traffic would be really fancy.
Title: Re: Fleet Creation
Post by: flanker37t on July 25, 2014, 08:46:14 AM
Oh, an awesome update, Alex, it seems the Sector will be much more alive now! :)

However, I have a kinda off-topic question: will the NPC ships' loadouts be generated in the same way as fleets? I mean, I can beat any ship with closed eyes mainly because I know all the loadouts by heart. A more or less random loadouts would bring an immense depth to combat, players will actually scan ships first to see what's going on, we will have to adapt our combat techniques to different fleets even if they belong to the same faction, etc.
Title: Re: Fleet Creation
Post by: Wyvern on July 25, 2014, 09:47:38 AM
My only question is how well this works with multiple mods in play; it looks like you'd need a way to specify "Add this ship to Escort Medium with this weight", so that the final escort medium ship role is a merged conglomeration of multiple mods...
Title: Re: Fleet Creation
Post by: Alex on July 25, 2014, 11:32:08 AM
Is there provision in ship roles for multiple ships fulfilling a single preference? Eg, if an outpost is really short on gear and can't even field a medium combat ship, it falls back even further to a pair of frigates, for instance. Or a strike force would prefer to have several frigates and fighter wings, but has to swap in a couple of fast destroyers in a pinch.
Based on how it appears to be set up, that might already be possible; see the "1" next to combatMedium.
Based on how it appears to be set up, that might already be possible; see the "1" next to combatMedium.
I think that 1 is the "weight" of the choice, not the number

For fallbacks, there's only one option, so there's no weight needed - it is indeed a quantity. So yeah, it can work like this, except for the case where you're going from a small to a medium ship - it currently would just swap out one for one, not two for one. Might need to think about that at some point.


To help make the sector feel busy and make it feel alive, I'd like to see lots of 'individual' transport and courier style ships. People still need to travel from planet A to planet B whether on a high speed transport or a bus, and people need the stuff express delivered in un-catchable millennium falcon archetypes.

Hmm. More civilian traffic in general sounds good.

So instead of the ring of space junk, why not make a dynamic ring of civilian ships orbiting the planet and stations whos size increase and decrease depending on market stability that trade fleets emerge and vanish from and to.
Also can add a simple visual indicator of how well a planet is generally doing.

I've been thinking about adding some ships to the orbital junk (it's not strictly junk, btw - more like smaller stations, satellites, etc). It'd just take more coding than I want to devote to that right now. Having a ring of ships in orbit that represent the available ships is a *really* interesting idea, though. I'll definitely keep it in mind.


- Question about procedural vs. handcrafted: AFAIK most of the Sector is going to be procedurally generated (maybe exempt from core worlds etc.). If you say something is "handcrafted", what does that mean in this context?
Does it "just" mean that you teach the algorithm a lot of special cases? For example, an event or a (set of) market condition(s) generate a fleet profile with ship roles defined specifically for this event/condition. Or do you really mean to assemble certain fleets by hand and script their behavior? (But how would they fit into a procedural world? That would only seem to make sense for things so small or so enormous that they are independent from the state of the sector, or things coming in from the outside...)

Both/either; a special case in an algorithm or "manually" assembling a fleet is pretty much the same thing. As for being "handcrafted", as I mentioned in the post, nothing is entirely one or the other. To your example, one of the stages in a food shortage event generates a relief fleet. That's a mix of handcrafted and procedural, but it's more "handcrafted" than it would be if the event simply generated a trade fleet, renamed it, and used that instead. Or, for example, there might be a special fleet that needs to be in existence at the start of the game, and factors into the backstory.


- Something else: Can you already share anything about the way fleets with no (necessarily) clear destination behave? I.e. explorers, tech mining fleets, pirates, headhunters, freelancers, maybe patrol fleets. Do you plan on some kind of search or roaming algorithm? Or will the destination be made up (pseudo-) randomly before the fleet is even generated? Maybe with waypoints?

Generally, the approach is to generate the assignments for a fleet when the fleet is created, and the assignment involves a final step where the fleet goes somewhere and despawns.

I just recently added the ability to attach scripts to fleets (and other campaign entities), though, and that's been useful for creating a higher-level assignment AI for fleets. For example, patrols will only get an assignment to orbit their source world initially. Their script will then wait until they don't have any assignments, and will generate a new mission for them - for example, something like "patrol around comm relay for 30 days, come back and orbit for 6 days". Fleets without assignments patrol around the system they're in - this is very much an implementation detail, though. Fleets need assignments to do something meaningful, but there's no reason for them not to have assignments at all times.


- Putting fleets in orbit sounds neat, visually. What happens if it is are attacked, anything special about that? Modified CR, loot or even combat scenario? Support from the planet?

For now, same as always. Except for trade fleets not having trade goods on board until they finish loading :)

(Re: support from the planet: maybe later. I've been thinking about this on an off, can't wait to actually get to it.)


However, I have a kinda off-topic question: will the NPC ships' loadouts be generated in the same way as fleets? I mean, I can beat any ship with closed eyes mainly because I know all the loadouts by heart. A more or less random loadouts would bring an immense depth to combat, players will actually scan ships first to see what's going on, we will have to adapt our combat techniques to different fleets even if they belong to the same faction, etc.

I know what you mean. Dynamic loadouts are another thing I'm really looking forward to adding (or at least trying, though I suspect it'd work out nicely); probably around the time autofactories/blueprints/ship production/etc exist.


My only question is how well this works with multiple mods in play; it looks like you'd need a way to specify "Add this ship to Escort Medium with this weight", so that the final escort medium ship role is a merged conglomeration of multiple mods...

There's file merging, same as with everything else. A mod could add ships to a specific faction's role, to a default role, etc.


Title: Re: Fleet Creation
Post by: xenoargh on July 25, 2014, 12:56:46 PM
I like the general idea; it's a good approach to the problems of making fleets varied.  That said, there are a couple of critiques I'd like to offer:

1.  I'd really prefer to see more visual uniformity amongst the Factions, to give them a more coherent look and feel.  Of them, only Tri-Tachyon has a distinct visual feel, and the rest feel very generic... and I'd really like to see the game move away from that and towards giving the Factions a unique look and feel, ala Freelancer.  This change will mean that fleets are even less heterogeneous in character, which may be potentially good / bad from a gameplay perspective, but it's going to cost the Factions even more of what makes them visually unique.

Depending on the state of the game art, this may or may not be a big deal to implement; perhaps just some palette manipulations and minor stat changes would be all it took to give each Faction's ships a more cohesive character- a Hegemony Enforcer might have better armor but slightly less speed than a Pirate one, etc. 

2.  I don't mind that, if there's nothing "better" around, the Hegemony will produce a Medusa, but it sounds like creating the web of dependencies is going to be really time-consuming, if one wants to ensure that a given planet won't have anything it can build if the Faction's preferences say ABC but the only Blueprint around is D.  How is that eventuality being handled?

Questions:

1.  The .faction files are well and truly broken, in terms of backwards compatibility now?

2.  Enabling which Blueprints are available happens through setup of the Markets by code fiat (for now), yes?

3.  Special fleets can still be built via code by adding new FleetMembers and all that?
Title: Re: Fleet Creation
Post by: Alex on July 25, 2014, 01:12:58 PM
1.  I'd really prefer to see more visual uniformity amongst the Factions, to give them a more coherent look and feel.  Of them, only Tri-Tachyon has a distinct visual feel, and the rest feel very generic... and I'd really like to see the game move away from that and towards giving the Factions a unique look and feel, ala Freelancer.  This change will mean that fleets are even less heterogeneous in character, which may be potentially good / bad from a gameplay perspective, but it's going to cost the Factions even more of what makes them visually unique.

Depending on the state of the game art, this may or may not be a big deal to implement; perhaps just some palette manipulations and minor stat changes would be all it took to give each Faction's ships a more cohesive character- a Hegemony Enforcer might have better armor but slightly less speed than a Pirate one, etc. 

The TT visual feel is more of a coincidence at this point (it's really the "high tech" visual feel, not TT), although I'd imagine they're still likely to get access to higher-tech blueprints when those are in the game. One of the things I'm thinking about here is making hullmods something faction-specific; this would likely entail some skill changes, too.

I don't actually like the idea of factions having completely non-overlapping ship sets. Some unique ships are good, but it feels like stuff like the Hound or the Lasher, standard workhorse type ships, should be pretty universally available. Part of it is that there are, say, only so many frigates you can have before they start being basically the same thing, so if you have 10 factions or whatnot, having several unique frigate choices per becomes unreasonable. Part of it is it wouldn't make in-fiction sense for the sets to be non-overlapping. Yet another part is that I'd like blueprint discovery to be something the player can use to influence the world (e.g., find Onslaught blueprint, sell to some minor independent world, watch total and utter chaos unfold).

We'll see, though. This is something that needs more thinking through.


2.  I don't mind that, if there's nothing "better" around, the Hegemony will produce a Medusa, but it sounds like creating the web of dependencies is going to be really time-consuming, if one wants to ensure that a given planet won't have anything it can build if the Faction's preferences say ABC but the only Blueprint around is D.  How is that eventuality being handled?

I don't quite understand the question. Is there a missing negation somewhere, maybe?

1.  The .faction files are well and truly broken, in terms of backwards compatibility now?

The original fleetCompositions still work. Not taking that out at the moment.


2.  Enabling which Blueprints are available happens through setup of the Markets by code fiat (for now), yes?

Blueprints aren't a thing at this point. The way it works is by basically assuming that everything is available, so, preferences are what matters.

3.  Special fleets can still be built via code by adding new FleetMembers and all that?

Yes. That's how patrols and trade fleets are created, actually. There's a MarketAPI.pickShipAndAddToFleet(String role, CampaignFleetAPI fleet) method that makes this work.
Title: Re: Fleet Creation
Post by: HELMUT on July 25, 2014, 01:27:17 PM
I like the general idea; it's a good approach to the problems of making fleets varied.  That said, there are a couple of critiques I'd like to offer:

1.  I'd really prefer to see more visual uniformity amongst the Factions, to give them a more coherent look and feel.  Of them, only Tri-Tachyon has a distinct visual feel, and the rest feel very generic... and I'd really like to see the game move away from that and towards giving the Factions a unique look and feel, ala Freelancer.  This change will mean that fleets are even less heterogeneous in character, which may be potentially good / bad from a gameplay perspective, but it's going to cost the Factions even more of what makes them visually unique.

Lore wise it actually make sense that the Hegemony also make use of high-tech ships. Strike Force Pollux are soldiers from the Domain so it's not surprising that they are armed with high-end weaponry like Paragons and other high-tech toys. Since they are now leading the Hegemony, it make sense that their core world's SDF are much more advanced than other systems. When you look at the local Hegemony colony in Corvus which share its own system with Pirates and hostile Tri-tachyons, they are probably a backward, isolated system, which would explain their extensive use of lower tech vessels.

The same thing could apply for TTs, an isolated TT system, for some reasons might be on a shortage of their usual high tech ships so they instead use something else until it can be replaced.

But overall the usual identity "Hegemony=low-tech, Tri-tachyon=high-tech" could still be somewhat working. After all the Hegemony seems much more expanded so most of their worlds only have low techs stuffs available, while Tri-tachyons as a corporation must keep their fleets standardized, perhaps?

Anyway, it's a very nice addition. I'm curious to see how fast you can switch a planet to a wealthy, organized world into a pirate haven.
Title: Re: Fleet Creation
Post by: PCCL on July 25, 2014, 02:17:08 PM
Quote
Lore wise it actually make sense that the Hegemony also make use of high-tech ships. Strike Force Pollux are soldiers from the Domain so it's not surprising that they are armed with high-end weaponry like Paragons and other high-tech toys.

well..... they were sent from the domain "many years ago" on slower than light travel, so I'm not entirely certain that that is the case

afaik (and this may be headcanon, I forgot how much of these i actually saw)

low tech: started "many years ago" before the invention of effective energy weapon and shielding, most of which brought to the sector by Pollux
midline: current level civilian tech, declassified weapons for civilian and local militia use, "standard" tech level at the time of collapse
high tech: cutting edge domain technology at time of collapse, kept in working order and safeguarded by the elitist Tri-Tachyon corporation
Title: Re: Fleet Creation
Post by: Toxcity on July 25, 2014, 02:54:06 PM
Well the Aurora's description in-game mentions that it's used by the Hegemony, but is mostly used by corporations.

Quote
In engagements, the Aurora's large energy turrets annihilate targets at extreme ranges with impunity, while missile launcher hardpoints deal with what is left. Most blueprints required to manufacture an Aurora-class ships are closely guarded corporate secrets, but a few have also seen service in the Hegemony Defense Force and rarely, in the hands of enterprising mercenary captains.
Title: Re: Fleet Creation
Post by: Gothars on July 25, 2014, 03:15:50 PM
I'd really prefer to see more visual uniformity amongst the Factions, to give them a more coherent look and feel. 

For this it would be great to have faction icons painted on (some of the) ship hulls.


well..... they were sent from the domain "many years ago" on slower than light travel, so I'm not entirely certain that that is the case

They arrived via hyperspace, but without a gate. So their journey may have taken hundreds of years, and their ships were probably (updated) antiques even when the started. :)


low tech: started "many years ago" before the invention of effective energy weapon and shielding, most of which brought to the sector by Pollux
midline: current level civilian tech, declassified weapons for civilian and local militia use, "standard" tech level at the time of collapse
high tech: cutting edge domain technology at time of collapse, kept in working order and safeguarded by the elitist Tri-Tachyon corporation

As I understand it, only expansion-epoch (high-tech) ships were used in the time before the collapse, core-epoch (midline) and mastery (low-tech) ships are both historical relics. Even the fact that they are named after historical eras strongly indicates that.
It's a bit as if we would start building WW2 fighter planes again after a major collapse of civilization, because nobody has the know-how to assemble a modern jet.
Title: Re: Fleet Creation
Post by: kazi on July 25, 2014, 04:12:07 PM
I'm going to second the motion for more visually uniform factions. Mixing and matching ships from different epochs/tech levels/whatever really grinds my gears aesthetically. I find myself always gravitating towards fielding only midlines, only high-tech, or only low-tech. Usually I don't mix and match except with ships that are kinda in between (Apogee = high/medium tech, Sunder = low/medium tech, etc.).

I think less well off/smaller/independent factions should use a hodgepodge of ships, but stronger/larger factions should have a very consistent feel and style.
Title: Re: Fleet Creation
Post by: PCCL on July 25, 2014, 07:14:24 PM
agreed.....

most sci fi games have a single distinct "feel" for a faction, but then that's justified by the factions usually being alien races who developed their technology apart from ours... In human vs human space battles (which is actually terribly rare in media....) one would imagine the ships all have a similar aesthetic....

where SS is stuck with is the idea that people would be using ships from distinctly different eras of human development, yet somehow these ships are on a (more or less) even playing field

It's a bit as if we would start building WW2 fighter planes again after a major collapse of civilization, because nobody has the know-how to assemble a modern jet.

like that, except the WW2 fighter can somehow still take down a modern jet, which is pretty much impossible unless technology has barely advanced for the past hundreds of years BEFORE the collapse

eh... idk.... somehow I feel this is gonna take some mental gymnastics to justify.... even more so now that factions are getting more disjointed from their tech level
Title: Re: Fleet Creation
Post by: xenoargh on July 25, 2014, 07:23:26 PM
Quote
I don't actually like the idea of factions having completely non-overlapping ship sets. Some unique ships are good, but it feels like stuff like the Hound or the Lasher, standard workhorse type ships, should be pretty universally available.
I agree with this in principle- I just want to see paintjob variations, really, that gives each Faction more of a cohesive look visually.  Ideally, they'd have small stat-line differences, but just having them use a Sprite swap would be good enough and easily implemented :)

As an example, right now the only thing that separates the Pirates from the Hegemony visually is Onslaughts.  Hence, they don't feel very distinct culturally.  

In this regard, look at the modded factions, where each one has a distinct visual feel; this is more appealing to me as a player, because it creates a much stronger sense of identity; I can build up a fleet of X Faction ships, if I want to RP.  

Anyhow, without knowing anything about the state of the art assets, I can't speak to the level of difficulty / time that making things more coherent would create.  I'd suspect that it's not a big deal in terms of time spent, though; doing straightforward palette manipulations is going to do it for a lot of cases.

Quote
I think less well off/smaller/independent factions should use a hodgepodge of ships, but stronger/larger factions should have a very consistent feel and style.
I agree with this strongly.  It's quite OK to engage in a lot of asset re-use for minor factions, and if done cleverly, it can create a feeling that they're a blending-point, culturally, with the other groups they share space with.  With the big factions, I kind of expect a lot more uniformity.

Quote
I don't quite understand the question. Is there a missing negation somewhere, maybe?
More that I didn't really express myself clearly due to my limited understanding of the underlying mechanic, sorry :) 

Anyhow, the question is, "If Factions have strict preferences to build ABC, but only have Blueprint D, will there be a mechanic that will allow that to happen, or will the Faction not build anything at all?"
Title: Re: Fleet Creation
Post by: Alex on July 25, 2014, 08:02:57 PM
As far as tech levels: think of it in terms of technology having mostly plateaued a long time ago. The "tech levels" more represent different schools of design thought. Sure, some slight improvements to engine technology may have been required to create the "high tech" ship designs, but they were far from being a qualitative change, and likely came with their own set of trade-offs.

Anyhow, the question is, "If Factions have strict preferences to build ABC, but only have Blueprint D, will there be a mechanic that will allow that to happen, or will the Faction not build anything at all?"

Ah. That shouldn't be a problem, would probably just make it fall back to the default role specification if the faction role specifications failed to produce an available ship. The default roles should contain every ship/variant that's meant to be used, so it would work out.
Title: Re: Fleet Creation
Post by: heskey30 on July 25, 2014, 08:29:51 PM
Well I am going to have to be a good fanboy and give Alex some support here.  :P

If the fleets are all of one solid type, that limits what kinds of fleets we can fight. For example, what would an onslaught be like if it had hyperion escorts? Nobody knows, they don't exist, but I bet it would be pretty nightmarish. The different tech levels each do some things better than the other ones, and they each have their weak points and strong points. If each faction always has the same weak points it makes the game seem more flat. Yeah, the factions then seem more differentiated, but they aren't even supposed to be, compared with many sci-fi game factions, which have alien races. In starsector they are all humans, and they all use the same technology.  And remember, this is supposed to be somewhat post-apocolyptic - nobody is going to be too picky about the weapons they use as long as they do the job.

Don't worry, I am sure Alex will make sure the factions are differentiated enough.

And on a related note, pirate fleets and Hegemony fleets might look similar, but if you fight the hegemony you can certainly tell the difference.  ;D
Title: Re: Fleet Creation
Post by: PCCL on July 25, 2014, 08:59:55 PM
oh, from a gameplay perspective, sure....

which is why paintjobs would probably be the best way of going about this, the coding and art involved though.... :P
Title: Re: Fleet Creation
Post by: Debido on July 25, 2014, 09:29:05 PM
Maybe the designs all look the same as the designs were so good in the first place there was no need to make changes to the platform
 Considering how much customisation options a captain has in terms of weapons, hull mods and flux; I don't see there being a lot of divergent designs if every platform capability niche is fulfilled.
Title: Re: Fleet Creation
Post by: Megas on July 26, 2014, 06:26:32 AM
While I prefer a fleet of uniform tech level (e.g., all low-tech or all high-tech), either on my side or the AI, there are some roles that can be done only by one epoch, and no self-respecting warrior who wants to win a war will limit his choice of weapons just because they feel wrong or look ugly.  If the most effective fleet is a blend or mash-up, then that is what will be used.  Some call this min-maxing and/or munchkin.  Well, min-maxing wins fights.

Fighters:  If I want to kill things, I use Broadswords and Thunders.  If I want a decoy to soak hits until my Odyssey flagship arrives to utterly destroy whatever, I use Xyphos.

Frigates:  I use a variety depending what I want to do.

Destroyer:  As a flagship, there is no substitute for the Medusa.  It is powerful enough to solo any fleet and fast enough to catch up and kill frigates.  It is true all-purpose ship.  It is also the only destroyer with decent burn speed.  If I pump up Navigation high enough, I may give AI Enforcers to pilot.  Ballistics are generally superior to energy weapons.  For carriers, I would avoid the Condor at all costs; the only way it can fight is Pilum spam.  Gemini can at least fight in a pinch.  For freighters, Buffalo is just bad.  I would use either Tarsus or Mule.  Tarsus because it can flee with burn drive.  Mule because it can fight.

Cruisers:  High-tech cruisers stink - none of them can focus-fire more than two blasters, and thus, do not outperform Medusa significantly enough to justify bigger profile, greater logistics cost, and slower speed.  The Eagle, with max Combat and Technology, can mount and focus-fire three blasters (and shield-buster ballistics) and smash fleets faster.  Thanks to maneuvering jets, it can be fast when it needs to.  As for carriers, Heron is the best.

Capitals:  If I feel like using only one ship to battle, it is Paragon.  If I want support while I zip around in a smaller ship, Onslaught.  Low-tech also has the only superfreighter (Atlas) in the game.

Generally, while I prefer high-tech ships, the CR costs for most of them are so bad that I avoid using them as AI escorts.  Often, I need disposable Lashers for the AI to use so that I can fight more before running out of CR.
Title: Re: Fleet Creation
Post by: Linnis on July 26, 2014, 06:30:01 AM
oh, from a gameplay perspective, sure....

which is why paintjobs would probably be the best way of going about this, the coding and art involved though.... :P


I think a paint job would not be something hard to code, A color layer on top of ship or simply have a few color presets. It would make sense when you order a ship from the auto factory you can input desired color scheme.
Title: Re: Fleet Creation
Post by: MidnightSun on July 26, 2014, 03:36:16 PM
oh, from a gameplay perspective, sure....

which is why paintjobs would probably be the best way of going about this, the coding and art involved though.... :P


That's been my favorite idea from the start; it's been mentioned several times over the months/years. If the sprites could each accommodate some minor visual modifications based on a faction's color or logo (color might be less tacky...), such as with Mass Effect's armor stripe colors, it could go a long way to making it much easier to identify enemy/friendly ships in the heat of battle, and lend some unity to factions' ships.

Sure, it'll take some time to code and make visual modifications, but I think it's an effort that'll pay off in the long run.
Title: Re: Fleet Creation
Post by: Gothars on July 26, 2014, 04:50:26 PM
That's been my favorite idea from the start; it's been mentioned several times over the months/years. If the sprites could each accommodate some minor visual modifications based on a faction's color or logo (color might be less tacky...), such as with Mass Effect's armor stripe colors, it could go a long way to making it much easier to identify enemy/friendly ships in the heat of battle, and lend some unity to factions' ships.

Sure, it'll take some time to code and make visual modifications, but I think it's an effort that'll pay off in the long run.


That was actually tested, let me point you to this (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=2888.msg41083#msg41083). Doesn't look too pretty, in my opinion.

Heard nothing official about icons, though. Some of the backrock ships look great with them.
Spoiler
(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a350/cycerin/brdy_convergence_zps0b8ab487.png)(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a350/cycerin/brdy_eschaton_zps6983f3a3.png)
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Title: Re: Fleet Creation
Post by: kazi on July 26, 2014, 06:26:22 PM
That's been my favorite idea from the start; it's been mentioned several times over the months/years. If the sprites could each accommodate some minor visual modifications based on a faction's color or logo (color might be less tacky...), such as with Mass Effect's armor stripe colors, it could go a long way to making it much easier to identify enemy/friendly ships in the heat of battle, and lend some unity to factions' ships.

Sure, it'll take some time to code and make visual modifications, but I think it's an effort that'll pay off in the long run.


That was actually tested, let me point you to this (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=2888.msg41083#msg41083). Doesn't look too pretty, in my opinion.

Heard nothing official about icons, though. Some of the backrock ships look great with them.
Spoiler
(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a350/cycerin/brdy_convergence_zps0b8ab487.png)(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a350/cycerin/brdy_eschaton_zps6983f3a3.png)
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Oh man, those look so much better than the vanilla sprites its not even funny. I absolutely love the Sunder and Wolf paint schemes!

Then again, I'm the guy who paints bright stripes over all of his stuff already, so...
Title: Re: Fleet Creation
Post by: Megas on July 27, 2014, 05:54:19 AM
Another comment:  Some ships look like they could belong to another epoch, if recolored.  For example, the Heron feels more high-tech than midline.  It has all energy slots (except for medium universal), it is the fastest cruiser, and it has a soft, rounded appearance.  If its color was shifted to blue and its CR cost raised (and maybe drones changed to lasers), it would look like a high-tech ship.
Title: Re: Fleet Creation
Post by: Mattk50 on July 27, 2014, 06:27:01 AM
As far as tech levels: think of it in terms of technology having mostly plateaued a long time ago. The "tech levels" more represent different schools of design thought. Sure, some slight improvements to engine technology may have been required to create the "high tech" ship designs, but they were far from being a qualitative change, and likely came with their own set of trade-offs.
high tech ships are more expensive to build and maintain, for one. Which means you can have more low tech ships than you can high tech, even if the high tech are individually more powerful it means little if they're overwhelmed. Something like that, right? :p
Title: Re: Fleet Creation
Post by: Linnis on July 27, 2014, 09:46:25 AM
The biggest problem is just the player don't have enough logistics to support enough high-tech ships to fight mid-large low tech AI fleets, and while the high tech ships being more costly to buy and maintain they almost never pay for themselves in anything other then frigate vs frigate battles.
Title: Re: Fleet Creation
Post by: MidnightSun on July 27, 2014, 12:11:05 PM
That was actually tested, let me point you to this (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=2888.msg41083#msg41083). Doesn't look too pretty, in my opinion.

Heard nothing official about icons, though. Some of the backrock ships look great with them.
Spoiler
(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a350/cycerin/brdy_convergence_zps0b8ab487.png)(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a350/cycerin/brdy_eschaton_zps6983f3a3.png)
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Right, those were the images I was thinking about, thanks for the link! I think overall they look good, actually. The colors could be more subtle, and I think the Astral is a bit overdone. In general though, I do like the effect. If the Hegemony had one color (ie. faded blood red), the TT had another (ie. faded light-blue), it'd be quite interesting. Would lend uniformity irrespective of the fleet ship composition.
Title: Re: Fleet Creation
Post by: PCCL on July 27, 2014, 12:28:41 PM
those stripes would work better if the ships themselves have a relatively uniform color scheme and design to begin with, imo, but as is it's hard to make them look good without changing the color of the entire ship

EDIT: quick mockup of the "for the greater lud", with a midline style low tech fleet, I wonder if it's possible to apply color schemes, icons, etc on top of that

Spoiler
(http://i.imgur.com/6VH4xYl.png)
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Title: Re: Fleet Creation
Post by: Thaago on July 28, 2014, 01:21:23 PM
Looks very nice. Question about the fleet preferences: it seems they are variant dependent, so how does it know if a specific variant can be made? Also, would it be possible to have "groupings" of ships? For example, if all of a sudden no carriers are available then maybe the patrol should swap its fighters out for frigates (so the groups would be carrier+fighters with the fallback being a number of frigates).

On the orbiting supply fleets - would it look good to have shuttles going between the fleet and its target? Probably not clickable or saved or anything, but just visuals to show activity.

Are you planning on tweaking costs/rewards a bit? It seems hand in hand with the economy - balancing the trader and raider playstyles just a bit. (Bloody Hegemony wants 50% of my take for giving a letter of Marque... grumble...)
Title: Re: Fleet Creation
Post by: Alex on July 28, 2014, 03:39:58 PM
Looks very nice. Question about the fleet preferences: it seems they are variant dependent, so how does it know if a specific variant can be made? Also, would it be possible to have "groupings" of ships? For example, if all of a sudden no carriers are available then maybe the patrol should swap its fighters out for frigates (so the groups would be carrier+fighters with the fallback being a number of frigates).

Right now, it just assumes everything is available, both in terms of hulls and weapons. Later on, what I'd like to do is generate variants based on what's available, with the specific variant being the "ideal" that it will aim for. Hopefully that'll pan out.


On the orbiting supply fleets - would it look good to have shuttles going between the fleet and its target? Probably not clickable or saved or anything, but just visuals to show activity.

It might, yeah. Not something I really want to mess with right now, though. That kind of stuff is important, but I'd like to beat everything into playable shape first.

Are you planning on tweaking costs/rewards a bit? It seems hand in hand with the economy - balancing the trader and raider playstyles just a bit. (Bloody Hegemony wants 50% of my take for giving a letter of Marque... grumble...)

Yeah, will have to do that for this release. Probably pretty extensively.
Title: Re: Fleet Creation
Post by: Alex on July 28, 2014, 06:47:15 PM
Looks very nice. Question about the fleet preferences: it seems they are variant dependent, so how does it know if a specific variant can be made? Also, would it be possible to have "groupings" of ships? For example, if all of a sudden no carriers are available then maybe the patrol should swap its fighters out for frigates (so the groups would be carrier+fighters with the fallback being a number of frigates).

Right now, it just assumes everything is available, both in terms of hulls and weapons. Later on, what I'd like to do is generate variants based on what's available, with the specific variant being the "ideal" that it will aim for. Hopefully that'll pan out.

Edit: As far as grouping, you can tell whether a ship was added successfully or not; managing groups would be done on the level of the code putting together the fleet, not the code picking a ship.

On the orbiting supply fleets - would it look good to have shuttles going between the fleet and its target? Probably not clickable or saved or anything, but just visuals to show activity.

It might, yeah. Not something I really want to mess with right now, though. That kind of stuff is important, but I'd like to beat everything into playable shape first.

Are you planning on tweaking costs/rewards a bit? It seems hand in hand with the economy - balancing the trader and raider playstyles just a bit. (Bloody Hegemony wants 50% of my take for giving a letter of Marque... grumble...)

Yeah, will have to do that for this release. Probably pretty extensively.
Title: Re: Fleet Creation
Post by: Zaphide on July 28, 2014, 10:50:22 PM
Looks great Alex :) (as usual)

Weirdly, I am most excited about:
Quote
Adding an extra step where fleets orbit each world, loading and offloading cargo for several days, made a huge difference in terms of feel.

I think this will make a massive difference to making the game world feel 'alive'! I'm also looking forward to playing around with the new fleet creation stuff :)

On this, are you going to allow new fleet behavior to be modded in at some point? There is only so much that can realistically be done with the current available fleet assignments... :P
Title: Re: Fleet Creation
Post by: Linnis on July 29, 2014, 12:28:26 AM
One major concern I have, a really good example is if you play updated uomoz where there are plenty of fleets large or small (update where more fleets spawn in the system you are in) [great job btw!]

The small fleets act really finicky, frequently they will decide to make 180s or just spin in circles because there are too many fleets they are interacting with. What ends up happening is looking like a giant mosquito mating ball, also very annoying trying to catch a fleet even if they are significantly slower.

Perhaps cut down on "opportunistic" behavior so small fleets dont get chased around by large fleets causing them to fly around looking like fools.

Title: Re: Fleet Creation
Post by: Gothars on July 29, 2014, 01:38:36 AM
Are you planning on tweaking costs/rewards a bit? It seems hand in hand with the economy - balancing the trader and raider playstyles just a bit. (Bloody Hegemony wants 50% of my take for giving a letter of Marque... grumble...)

Yeah, will have to do that for this release. Probably pretty extensively.

Yay! Will you try anything yet to invert the (at the moment upside-down) difficulty curve? Trading should offer a great starting point to that end, shouldn't it?
Title: Re: Fleet Creation
Post by: Alex on July 29, 2014, 07:07:27 PM
On this, are you going to allow new fleet behavior to be modded in at some point? There is only so much that can realistically be done with the current available fleet assignments... :P

Most likely, yeah - I'd like to make fleet AI fully moddable at some point.

Right now, though, there's already a great increase in flexibility. You can override the text that the fleet tooltip shows - both in a fleet-global way, and per-individual-assignment - and along with the ability to control fleet movement, that gets you most of the way there, if in a round-about way. You can also now attach scripts to fleets (and other SectorEntityTokens), which is how the assignments are being managed here in some cases. For example, there's n "patrol assignment AI" script attached to a patrol that waits to see when there's no current assignment - i.e. the last set of assignments ran out - and then figures out what the next set of assignments should be.

The small fleets act really finicky, frequently they will decide to make 180s or just spin in circles because there are too many fleets they are interacting with. What ends up happening is looking like a giant mosquito mating ball, also very annoying trying to catch a fleet even if they are significantly slower.

Perhaps cut down on "opportunistic" behavior so small fleets dont get chased around by large fleets causing them to fly around looking like fools.

I'll keep an eye out. Haven't been seeing this in vanilla, but haven't really been playtesting it beyond functional testing at this point.


Yay! Will you try anything yet to invert the (at the moment upside-down) difficulty curve? Trading should offer a great starting point to that end, shouldn't it?

It's a start, yeah, but I don't think the pieces are quite there to make the endgame more challenging. That's almost certainly going to take giving AI fleets skilled combat officers. I'm more looking at balancing out trade income vs combat income, which isn't quite the same as changing the curve, though that can't help but change somewhat anyway. Hopefully in a good direction, but this isn't a pass where I'm terribly worried about the curve, beyond it being playable.
Title: Re: Fleet Creation
Post by: Mattk50 on July 30, 2014, 08:05:54 AM

It's a start, yeah, but I don't think the pieces are quite there to make the endgame more challenging. That's almost certainly going to take giving AI fleets skilled combat officers. I'm more looking at balancing out trade income vs combat income, which isn't quite the same as changing the curve, though that can't help but change somewhat anyway. Hopefully in a good direction, but this isn't a pass where I'm terribly worried about the curve, beyond it being playable.

the curve was already the same before the skill systems, so combat officers alone would probably only tip the scale back in the other direction, against new player characters. Overworld map AI that starts to take notice of you and proactively tries to take you down would be cool in the future.