Fractal Softworks Forum

Starsector => General Discussion => Blog Posts => Topic started by: David on May 21, 2014, 09:53:28 PM

Title: Let Me Draw You A Starsector Ship, Part 2
Post by: David on May 21, 2014, 09:53:28 PM
The blog post by yours truly can be found here (http://fractalsoftworks.com/2014/05/22/let-me-draw-you-a-starsector-ship-part-2/).
Title: Re: Let Me Draw You A Starsector Ship, Part 2
Post by: MShadowy on May 21, 2014, 10:32:07 PM
Nice read.  Thanks for sharing your workflow with us.
Title: Re: Let Me Draw You A Starsector Ship, Part 2
Post by: xenoargh on May 22, 2014, 01:28:28 AM
Lovely result on that, it feels boxy-but-good :)

In terms of the asymmetry:
Spoiler
A lot of really interesting designs in sci-fi get their kick from the rear silhouettes being unique, but I agree it's hard sometimes to find the right balance, and it's one of the harder things to get right; while there are lots of designs where they're practically mirrors (X-Wings, Star Destroyers, practically every race in Star Trek) there are the exceptional designs where the asymmetry there really gives it a kick.  While it's hard to pull off, it looks really nice when it happens.

It think it's cool, when it works, because it agrees with physical reality or at least feels right.  It's also one of the reasons why asymmetry in designs of this sort are risky- it's really hard to get that figured out sometimes.

IRL, an asymmetric design creates a lot of practical issues, in terms of dealing with center of mass (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_of_mass) and more importantly, the amount of force being applied to the structure at the point where thrust is being created.  There is torque to consider, as well; you may need X kilotons of force to cease rotation in Y time, but you're limited structurally and may not be able to solve for Y without shearing pins all over the place, heh.

With computerized fly-by wire and adjustable thrust levels, symmetry isn't necessary; a ship can calibrate itself and find its center of mass pretty easily and adjust accordingly (and they need to, if they're moving much mass around internally), but balanced forces are pretty important, especially if changing vectors.

With a simple rocket with complete symmetry and a center of mass that's completely centered, you're looking at a pretty simple picture- rear thrusters for major changes in the vector of travel and small thrusters in the front and perhaps in the back to change the vector the ship is pointed at at any given moment without imparting a lot of velocity.

But when the mass is distributed much more asymmetrically, this gets a lot more complicated, especially when we're talking about structures needing to handle the loads along the primary axis of thrust.  A traditional rocket is very simple that way, since it just needs to be braced for 3 force vectors in two pretty specific places.  Something that's basically symmetrical like the Millennium Falcon is a minor change in thrust levels to compensate.  The cockpit is a large part of it being a brilliant design; the original concepts weren't terribly interesting until that was added.  But in terms of mass, it's pretty minor, and the engines don't need to reflect that, although it would have been cooler if they had.

A B-Wing?  Why does that work, though?  It wasn't a happy accident; it's because the concept artist was thinking about the physics involved.

The reason the design works, imo, is that it's putting forces roughly where they'd make sense; there are only major thrusters right where one presumes the center of mass would be (http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080929233321/starwars/images/f/f2/Bwing_egvv.jpg).  It feels right, because mass feels about even from the center of the thruster pods to everywhere else; we can imagine this object rotating in all directions without much distress. 

It'd work even better if there were thrusters out on the end of the main wing, imo, to provide for precession, but Star Wars tech doesn't involve thrusters except where they feel like it, apparently.  But it's quite clear from the early concepts (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Fo_9U2UK18w/UomUj0SGy-I/AAAAAAAARnM/YSc9aHVU1m4/s640/b-wings-design-art.jpg) that this concept of centering the mass was key to the development of the final form.

Just looking at other folks trying to make this kind of thing work (https://www.flickr.com/photos/46304451@N04/11329002674/) (btw, this comes from a whole series of Lego concepts (https://www.flickr.com/groups/asymmetric/pool/48553964@N04/) I think you might find interesting) the ones that are really radical and work are almost always ones where the center of mass is clearly defined by the design and the design reflects the physics to some degree.

The physics of making a working thing create a weird beauty, in short; a design where the asymmetry is oriented around the greebly bits will feel less "right" than one where it's obviously about the center of mass.

Anyhow, that was what I was getting at there, but I didn't want to step on your toes while you were figuring out the design :)

I'll probably do some drawings for this stuff at some point, but I'm still busy working on code for other stuff atm.  Alex, one other thought; figuring the center of mass is wherever the ship's centroid is placed, you could have the engine length / size code auto-adjust, asymmetrically, according to the current rate of turn and the distance from the centerline of thrust; that'd look really, really cool on ships with engines asymmetrically placed and it'd be pretty easy to add in :)
[close]
Title: Re: Let Me Draw You A Starsector Ship, Part 2
Post by: Gothars on May 22, 2014, 03:04:43 AM
Really like the ship, looking forward to piloting it.


[engage: nerdmode] I want to point out that the B-Wing is actually symmetrical along one axis, just like all the other iconic Star Wars fighters. It is a bit special because the cockpit is not anywhere near the center of mass and can rotate, but its symmetry is nothing out of the ordinary. [end]
Title: Re: Let Me Draw You A Starsector Ship, Part 2
Post by: Nick XR on May 22, 2014, 09:51:06 AM
This is great, I really appreciate it!
Title: Re: Let Me Draw You A Starsector Ship, Part 2
Post by: Debido on May 22, 2014, 10:02:12 AM
Now all I have to do is learn how to draw...
Title: Re: Let Me Draw You A Starsector Ship, Part 2
Post by: Cycerin on May 22, 2014, 10:27:23 AM
Your dedication to hunting unnecessary visual clutter and noise makes me feel like a real sloppy artist. There's a lot to learn from your workflow, though, especially since I also use photoshop. Looking forward to see what happens to this ship in the end, if it gets a special drone system or some sort of limited flight deck.
Title: Re: Let Me Draw You A Starsector Ship, Part 2
Post by: Thaago on May 22, 2014, 10:51:41 AM
That was really interesting, thanks for showing us!

For some reason I see this ship having big, beefy drones armed with mini-mining blasters. Like you said, no good against missiles, but potent against other frigates.
Title: Re: Let Me Draw You A Starsector Ship, Part 2
Post by: ArkAngel on May 22, 2014, 11:31:46 AM
I do like the new "shepard". It fits into the same civilianesque style of the mule and the venture quite well. It would be interesting to see how it turns out in game. Thanks again David for showing us your workflow.
That was really interesting, thanks for showing us!

For some reason I see this ship having big, beefy drones armed with mini-mining blasters. Like you said, no good against missiles, but potent against other frigates.
I absolutely love that idea. A minature mining laser on drones that would be potent against frigates sounds awesome.
Title: Re: Let Me Draw You A Starsector Ship, Part 2
Post by: Erick Doe on May 22, 2014, 01:27:17 PM
Quote
“barnacled” pods
Hah! New space-tech terminology.

I'm happy to be able to read up on your workflow in such detail, David.
Title: Re: Let Me Draw You A Starsector Ship, Part 2
Post by: CrashToDesktop on May 22, 2014, 03:34:02 PM
It's always nice to see these blog posts - gives some insight as to how people work.  Interesting ship, but even more interesting is that you use the pen tool to do ships.  It's something that I use a lot in one of my graphics arts classes, but I never did think about using it for these sprites - maybe they were just too small for me to think about the pen tool.  I might just take up to it. :)

I suspect that "non-yet-implemented ship sprite" might be called a Crig.
Title: Re: Let Me Draw You A Starsector Ship, Part 2
Post by: Vinya on May 22, 2014, 05:38:52 PM
Cool tutorial.

Any chance you'd be able to post more unused/early-stage sprites for us kitbashers to tear apart? Matching vanilla style is always easier with more parts. :3
Title: Re: Let Me Draw You A Starsector Ship, Part 2
Post by: FasterThanSleepyfish on May 22, 2014, 09:58:52 PM
Caught this: the LMG drones you put on the new frigate are from the Gemini, not the Astral! You bring disgrace on the whole fleet! 
Title: Re: Let Me Draw You A Starsector Ship, Part 2
Post by: ahrenjb on May 23, 2014, 02:08:11 PM
Cool tutorial.

Any chance you'd be able to post more unused/early-stage sprites for us kitbashers to tear apart? Matching vanilla style is always easier with more parts. :3

Kitbashing, the surefire way to create uninspired and boring ships with precisely zero character or quality. Yes, let's have more of this please.
Title: Re: Let Me Draw You A Starsector Ship, Part 2
Post by: Toxcity on May 23, 2014, 02:17:29 PM
Kitbashing, the surefire way to create uninspired and boring ships with precisely zero character or quality. Yes, let's have more of this please.

While I agree that some kitbashes are terrible, I think many on this forum look great, such as those done by HELMUT or the ones in Mesotronik's Infernal Machine mod.
Title: Re: Let Me Draw You A Starsector Ship, Part 2
Post by: ValkyriaL on May 23, 2014, 02:18:21 PM
There are many kitbashed ships out there that look amazing, and combining hand drawing with kitbashing produces the ultimate sprites.
Title: Re: Let Me Draw You A Starsector Ship, Part 2
Post by: PCCL on May 23, 2014, 04:34:02 PM
a minor question: The astral uses high tech laser drones, are you talking about the new midline carrier?
Title: Re: Let Me Draw You A Starsector Ship, Part 2
Post by: FasterThanSleepyfish on May 23, 2014, 05:09:49 PM
Hay, I already asked that question!

But yeah, he made a mistake. I hope its 2 special mining drones with mining blasters, slow and powerful!
Title: Re: Let Me Draw You A Starsector Ship, Part 2
Post by: CrashToDesktop on May 23, 2014, 05:15:39 PM
He DID say that after his initial test, he downgraded the drones. ;)
Title: Re: Let Me Draw You A Starsector Ship, Part 2
Post by: PCCL on May 23, 2014, 07:46:00 PM
bah, didn't catch that skimming through 1st page :P

I like this ship though, reminds me of the Cerberus conversion i did. A heavy support frigate with a degree of logistic utility built in
Title: Re: Let Me Draw You A Starsector Ship, Part 2
Post by: David on May 24, 2014, 11:59:31 AM
In response to a bunch of people - Thanks for the kind words!

Drones:
Uhhh, I was just poking around in the ships.csv 'til I found something that caught my eye to copy & paste, wasn't too worried about the details. Alex is hooking up something more appropriate so it's nothing to fret about. You'll see :)

About posting unused/in-progress sprite work:
You'll probably get a similar answer from any artist, but I'm just not into showing all of the stuff that's still being worked on or pondered upon or floating around in my virtual sketchbook. Feels better to have what I release to the public be a product of my intent, you know? Though blog posts like this reveal a bit of the dirt and details of the process, of course, that's serving an intent as well.

(Speaking of: Did anyone notice a secret sprite for something that I "accidentally" revealed?)

Regarding the Pen tool:
This thing is seriously powerful. Have it snap to the pixel grid and you're in business for doing all kinds of weird curvy stuff with spriting! Just look at any of the high tech ships and you're probably seeing a lot of use of the pen tool.
Title: Re: Let Me Draw You A Starsector Ship, Part 2
Post by: ciago92 on May 24, 2014, 12:12:28 PM
Spoiler
half of a station in the background? :-D
[close]
Title: Re: Let Me Draw You A Starsector Ship, Part 2
Post by: CrashToDesktop on May 24, 2014, 03:05:19 PM
I sense it's a ship called the "Crig" (I'm amazed no one has caught my sneaky hidden text a few posts ago). :D Although I could be horribly wrong.  It looks more like a pointy spire in space.  Or it could be those bits sticking out of the bottom of the window - fighters?  They look too station-like to be, maybe different objectives or objective defenses?
Title: Re: Let Me Draw You A Starsector Ship, Part 2
Post by: Cosmitz on May 25, 2014, 11:10:40 AM
Do you wanna draw a staaaaarship?

It doesn't have to be a staaaarship.
Title: Re: Let Me Draw You A Starsector Ship, Part 2
Post by: David on May 25, 2014, 08:11:56 PM
Spoiler
half of a station in the background? :-D
[close]

There we go!
Title: Re: Let Me Draw You A Starsector Ship, Part 2
Post by: Roka on May 29, 2014, 07:35:27 AM
This makes me so happy, this is the exact kind of ship i was hoping for. Cant wait to play around with it. <3
Title: Re: Let Me Draw You A Starsector Ship, Part 2
Post by: Doom101 on May 29, 2014, 09:35:38 AM
i've always enjoyed the ships that blur the lines between civilian and military, i call them Civilitary ships having another one to play with is basically all i've ever wanted. this might just replace the venture as my favorite ship depending on how it's system turns out. ( the venture's fast missiles put it way lower than it should be on my list)
Title: Re: Let Me Draw You A Starsector Ship, Part 2
Post by: DeMatt on November 13, 2014, 06:42:24 PM
Something that's been bugging me... when you mirror-flipped the Shepherd, you also mirror-flipped the Shepherd's navigation lights.  So now they're green to port and red to starboard - the opposite of what the Buffalo and Atlas have.