You liar, that's not cool.
Alex: January 19, 2014, 10:28:30 PM
"I'm going to have to be a bit economical with my reply - :-X"
Nice! My 2 cents: it absolutely makes sense for there to be a lack of profitable trade routes (race to the bottom, etc) if there is enough shipping in an area. If there's not enough shipping, then imbalances should pop up. Those could be made by an event (pirates preying on shipping, industrial accident...) or possibly by the player (kill all the competition, then run the routes yourself).
I'm very excited to see what you and David have been coming up with for systems and stories - I'm thinking the atmosphere of the game is going to start changing. :)
In any case, trading is something to do when my units are too weak to fight stuff. Once my units can fight anything, commerce is only good for getting shinies that cannot be won from combat or acquired any other way.
Heres a question, will there be multiple ways to handle an event that DON'T involve a monetary profit?
I know you mentioned that if a player has ill will towards a planet they could potentially blockade to stop all supplies coming in, but other than selling mass quantities of food to starving people can we just give them food? I know in a former blog post ( or somewhere) you had mentioned Morality and how that would affect how people see you. But then this might be saying too much of the future.
I didn't expected trade to be like that. This version of trade that Alex show us is actually seems more like a quest system than a trading system. Random quest appears, choose whether or not you want to do it, the quest involve basic "Get things, give them to dude, get money".
For some reasons i expected a more 4X mechanic. Player faction set an automated trading route to get resources, other factions can interact with the routes and influence your faction (pirate raid, Hegemony blockade...), you can choose to defend or attacks trades routes to influence the game.
I'm not saying it is bad by any mean, it will be probably very important for the implementation of the rest of the eventual missions mechanics. But to me it's not "real" trading.
But as Alex said, trading would be quickly boring. Some mods already feature a similar mechanic and while being a freighter captain can get you some safe money, it's not as interesting as blowing up stuffs. Maybe later on (or with mods) we'll be able to set AI trading routes that you will manage, not necessarily as a captain but more as a company director, Starsector Tycoon style.
Not sure if this will be the direction Alex want his game to go though. Starsector seems to be more of a SPAZ's like rather than a 4X or a RTS.
I approve. :)
A lot of trading games would benefit enormously from a trading system closer to what you've described than what they have.
Sounds absolutely amazing. But im still looking forward to having my own planet in the future. :P hopefully it will be difficult to "own" one, and even more difficult to maintain more then one. But thats just my personal hope for this game. That said, this whole post made me excited for this game once again. :)
Excellent. This will really liven up the Sector. I love the idea of being on the ball and looking for opportunities to make a profit, or looking for people trying to make a profit and making a profit off preying on them. Or even making a profit off escorting OTHER traders trying to make a profit... Profit.
how will the update affect our current saves? i saved up 4 million which i would hate to lose.
and is there any update on more ships and factions?
Also, if I'm not mistaken, this blog post seems to imply that planets may also be getting some vital statistics so they're more than just scenery, which is pretty cool.
One thing I'd like to see would be a UI tab dedicated to trade and those things that fall within it (and some skills of course to complement it (also would like to see being able to expand the functionality of non-critical UI elements for giving more information)).
That is, something to track last known prices of objects everywhere and sort into lists, have a 'subordinate' create trade routes from that data (based on last known/time you visited so it could be totally wrong for more flavor :3 ) and other ways to keep track of money and how it's being used - especially as this will be essential once you implement the more simulated aspects of industrial production requiring precursor goods to make the screws that hold the robot together that makes your widgets that let people poop in space. Also need to be able to figure out who else is making parts and pieces inside that Vertical monopoly so you can dissuade them from impinging on your profits (kill them dead).
So er, more an Economics tab... but come on, I enjoy Spreadsheet Online for a reason.
Can't wait for the point we're talking about a SigInt tab for information \o/
Will this system extend to ships? For example X system was hit badly by a pirate raid and needs ships asap, but only the type of ships it can properly maintain? Like backwater systems preferring some Lashers instead of an Aurora?
IIRC, there is an Android (maybe IOS too?) game called Star Traders RPG that has a mechanic like this in a glorious fashion. Perhaps you could check it out and take some ideas from that, as I think that being a space trader in that game is ridiculously fun. The game is turn-based and text-based (albeit with pictures and cute graphics)
Here's a basic description.SpoilerThere are around a dozen different types of goods you can buy/sell at different worlds with dynamic prices. Three of which (weapons, artifacts, electronics) you have to have a trade permit from a respective in-game faction in order to carry, to which also brings in the prospect of smuggling (patrol ships will subject you to searches). Every so often, one of the many worlds will have a surplus or shortage of a certain resource, and that will affect both prices and production of that world and faction. You can find out about these either by witnessing them personally, or hearing a rumor via the in-game bar on each planet. Naturally, this brings the potential to make massive profit, or end up with a bunch of useless cargo if the shortage ends before you get there.
Implementing this in real time would be an amazing game mechanic.[close]
Having the known min/max prices of goods shown at planets would be a godsent though. Memorizing all the information is a pain in some games.
So what stops you from continually blockading and hoarding precious trade good X for later profit. Does the trade event ramp up the AI trader fleet protection until it's an SDF escorting a lone mule?
I was thinking of doing that here, but the post is already getting pretty long, so I’ll hold off on that.
Mmm, yes I can see how It would become impractical eventually, as well as keeping all that data in memory. That said, the label on the tin suggested we could be the perpetrator of the event rather than reacting to a random timer the event of a station or planet running out of supplies.
"Cripple core world supply lines to cause chaos and create easy prey for piracy or bolster the rule of law and try to reverse the sector’s descent into anarchy"
I'm not sure if it's been answered yet, but can our actions cause the event to occur? Can I for instance stop the Oxygen trader getting through the planet, thereby denying breathing air and causing mass death.
Or maybe you supply aphrodisiacs to the planet and 9 months later there is a sudden population boom therefore requiring more food/oxygen.
I'm so happy if I don't have to write down a thousand different prices of a thousand different things on a thousand little slips of paper - I've done that too often, I never want to do that again.
I'm a little skeptical how a regular, grinding type of trade should be viable for automated outpost affairs and at the same time not for the player. Either you can make no benefit, then an automated system can't make one either, or you can. Maybe it's just the existence of a far better alternative approach that removes "normal" trading from the viable options for the player controlled fleet?
By the way, the picture of the Atlas with the planets in the backdrop rocks! The trade goods icons look good too, although I can't identify most of them yet. (Best Guess: Rocks - infernium - autofacs - household goods - food - water - luxury items - weapons)
QuoteI was thinking of doing that here, but the post is already getting pretty long, so I’ll hold off on that.
What in the world gave you the idea a blogpost could ever be too long? ;D
-snip-
However the less hegemony (and more pirate) activity the less traders work in a sector and colonies there are constantly in need of certain wares they pay at a premium for.
This way you could also differenciate the trader fleet compositions in systems depending on their "safety levels" with solitary Buffalos flying around in safe ones Mules/Hounds in mildly dangerouns ones and infrequently a fleet of Tarsus/Atlas class ships escorted by Hegemony Cruisers/Destroyers in the most dangerous sectors the hegemony has some interest in shipping large ammounts of freight in and out.
This way a player that wants to focus on trading gets something to do between (semi) random disasters (that let him earn thick wads of cash if he plays the cards right).
You know what would be awesome if that last part about relatively unprotected fleets in really safe areas goes in?
instead of playing the bounty hunter who kills all the pirates, or the trader who runs whole economies, being the boldest pirate in the sector that sets up shop right in the heart of the hegemony and makes all those unprotected buffalos and other freighters fear for their lives. for a fast frigate fleet it'd be like taking candy from a baby, delicious money flavored candy. ( especially at a high NAV level with that and hullmods most frigates can sustain a 14 or 16 burn level while not even in hyper space) Although i imagine being the only hostile target in a system filled with hegemony patrols and defense fleets might get very hectic very fast when suddenly everyone wants you dead.
I wonder what's the biggest change in the story since David took over the lore rudders. Looking forward to finding out.
A more general question, Alex: Can you estimate how much of your dev time is spent on conceptualizing/design, and how much is the actual programming/implementation? I can't help to notice that by now you came up with a whole bunch of pretty unique, intricate game mechanics of which I had never heard before. I wonder if you maybe spent much more time thinking about what you're doing than it is the case in the average game production.
Oh, and on the news reports: Will they be objective, reliable reports or will they be colored by faction politics? What I want to know is basically if they are going to be "just" an UI element or another game mechanic, a battlefield of information.
And I have to mention how great this whole thing could work in conjunction with the boarding system: Intercepting freighters just before they reach their target and boarding them to maximize the amount of the currently "hot" resource you get in your greedy claws - that's a real good motivation to attempt a now oh so risky boarding maneuver!
While i like the ideas of events that shape the sector (and let you earn thick wads of cash) i still think trading should be profitable... at least usually.
BUT
there will be a lot of competotors in safer sectors with a lot of hegemony presence so the earnings will be miserable when you take fuel and ship maitenance costs into account.
However the less hegemony (and more pirate) activity the less traders work in a sector and colonies there are constantly in need of certain wares they pay at a premium for.
Of course you could bring a well armed fleet there and trade without worrying about pirates... till they decide to gang up.
Or the planet there is too small or underdeveloped to generate enough trade goods for your atlas and three escort onslaughts to be profitable when taking maitenance costs into account.
I wonder what's the biggest change in the story since David took over the lore rudders. Looking forward to finding out.
In general terms I *think* Ivaylo had more of a Warhammer 40k/Dune-ish angle on things, some kind of 'operatic scifi' maybe (I guess that's "space opera", but the meaning has mutated, expanded, and been reinterpreted a bit), though I can't say for sure because I'm not Ivaylo nor do I know Warhammer 40k in any depth - while I'm more ... um, I'd have to write you a list of sf books. Which is a great idea for a blog post actually! (And I recall that the manual for Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri had a reading list in the back, which was awesome.)
But some of my favourite SF authors (right now) are probably Iain M. Banks (may he RIP), Alastair Reynolds, maybe Ken Macleod which probably tells you something if you're familiar with their work. May be forgetting some; growing up I used to read all sorts of stuff from my mom's science fiction collection, which was huge. Probably read most of the "years best SF" collections edited by Gardner Dozois for example; tons of Bear, Brin, Niven, Heinlein, LeGuin, KSR, etc. I'll go into more detail in a hypothetical blog post. History is also a big source of material, making parallels to historical events & etc.
Bewarned I can ramble on about this for quite some time.
I should say that there's one case where I'd like something like regular trade to be profitable - shipping exotic, luxury goods. The idea there is that they bring in more profit further away from their world of origin, so design-wise, you're guaranteed that it's going to be a very long trip. Then, if the trip itself is difficult enough (having to refuel/resupply on the way, maybe pirates specifically hunting you since they know you carry high-value stuff, etc), it could work without becoming repetitive. Really need to see it in action, though, and it might need even more star systems than the next release will have to work properly.I agree. I think it would be cool if there were 4 luxury goods (maybe faction specific?) each made in one of the 4 corners of the sector (not literally but close) that would require a fairly long trek.
I should say that there's one case where I'd like something like regular trade to be profitable - shipping exotic, luxury goods. The idea there is that they bring in more profit further away from their world of origin, so design-wise, you're guaranteed that it's going to be a very long trip. Then, if the trip itself is difficult enough (having to refuel/resupply on the way, maybe pirates specifically hunting you since they know you carry high-value stuff, etc), it could work without becoming repetitive. Really need to see it in action, though, and it might need even more star systems than the next release will have to work properly.I agree. I think it would be cool if there were 4 luxury goods (maybe faction specific?) each made in one of the 4 corners of the sector (not literally but close) that would require a fairly long trek.
Also form a pure traders perspective its infinitely better than having to prey on RNG events since those while fun are definitely not a reliable form of income.
how would you even count the time spent, you know, creating the five prior versions of one thing or another, until it finally felt right, or close to it?
Oh, and on the news reports: Will they be objective, reliable reports or will they be colored by faction politics? What I want to know is basically if they are going to be "just" an UI element or another game mechanic, a battlefield of information.Very much leaning towards the latter, tempered by not making things much too complicated.
And I have to mention how great this whole thing could work in conjunction with the boarding system: Intercepting freighters just before they reach their target and boarding them to maximize the amount of the currently "hot" resource you get in your greedy claws - that's a real good motivation to attempt a now oh so risky boarding maneuver!
Hmm, yeah. Hadn't considered that, but that's pretty neat and "free".
I should say that there's one case where I'd like something like regular trade to be profitable - shipping exotic, luxury goods.I agree. I think it would be cool if there were 4 luxury goods (maybe faction specific?) each made in one of the 4 corners of the sector (not literally but close) that would require a fairly long trek.
Wait, does this mean we can't play the utterly amoral speculator who buys out 80% of a system's much-needed resources with his superior credit balance then drip-feeds it back in at extortionary prices?No, you can do that behavior, too; simply dump vast quantities of Resource X into the Neutral Station and wait for opportunity to come knocking.
Also form a pure traders perspective its infinitely better than having to prey on RNG events since those while fun are definitely not a reliable form of income.
I like the move towards that versus the "standard" trading. In reality, the buy-low-sell-high trading system doesn't actually make much sense; Most of the time, that sort of thing is handled behind closed doors, with businesses and corporations working with specific suppliers. I can see it work for less civilized worlds, but for mega-corporations, I can't imagine they'd operate like normal space games do, except in of course very unusual circumstances like these events.
Not that that sort of trading shouldn't be at least potentially viable. But in reality, I can't see it being such a way to get rich easy like most games. Trading would generally work more like getting employed for freight work or mercenary contracting.
I hope the luxury goods are intended to be traded in large enough quantities for making it worthwhile for traders to invest in freighters
Wait, does this mean we can't play the utterly amoral speculator who buys out 80% of a system's much-needed resources with his superior credit balance then drip-feeds it back in at extortionary prices?No, you can do that behavior, too; simply dump vast quantities of Resource X into the Neutral Station and wait for opportunity to come knocking.
In the end, that's probably the most efficient way to earn money under the system as proposed.
3. The only issue I see with this is that, for it to really work well and feel like much of a challenge, smaller fleets need to attack the player; the way that it works right now, where they're very risk-averse, seems like it might not create a lot of challenge, if the player stays in good relations with everybody but the Pirates.
Another way to handle this is by having such activities be the first official mechanic that (finally) effects reputation in a dynamic way. So you might bring much-needed Fertilizer to a Tri-Tachyon facility, which makes them happier with you but is looked upon with skepticism by the Hegemony (slight negative rep. per unit moved) and might be considered a criminal action by a third party (significant negative rep. per unit moved), putting the player on their hit-list.
One thing I would like to comment on is an issue I have had with many other games with trade mechanics. that is visibility of the economy.
what do I mean by that? I mean that I'm hoping for a system here where it will be easy to see the profitable trades. perhaps some indicator of demand when you are looking to trade goods. i agree that having a repetitive buy here, sell here at a profit would be very boring, and having to find the opportunities out there would be a great was of keeping it very interesting, but i would be concerned if the process was too opaque. i hope we will be able to see these deals and make use of them the instant we start playing!
Well, this certainly sounds like a system that ought to make trading more interesting than hopping back and forth between planets, dodging pirates. And I like the idea of its implications going beyond just the trading subsystem.
And I'm really excited to see that whole new areas of gameplay are going to be opening up in the next update. I, at least, have been waiting for something like this for quite some time now! :)
Wish I had some useful information to give you Alex regarding your post, but all I can say is, "Agree." Can't wait to play around with it.
Any thoughts on goods with an expiration date? I could imagine that it might be interesting for luxury goods if you had a timer on the delivery, and after it has run down their value starts to decrease. That could be because you have actually perishable goods,
... but they could also fall victim to the changing fashion, which is quite volatile for most anything considered luxurious.
In combination with the more-distance-more-profit mechanic that would also give incentive to use fast trading fleets over slow and capacious ones. You can carry more items in slow fleets, but you can't reach the highest paying markets before their value starts to decrease.
Will the new systems added actually begin to involve "Core Worlds" and whatnot? Corvus has always been the nexus of the Starsector campaign, is that going to change now?
Something like that is actually under consideration. The details might be tricky, though. Wouldn't want permanent hostility with the Hegemony because you sold 1 unit of hand weapons to Tri Tachyon 3 cycles ago.
What neutral station? Actually, it'll probably be around for the next release, but I wouldn't count on that sticking around forever.I eliminated it from Vacuum and most people weren't all that unhappy to see it go, but that's because there aren't any serious issues with choice anxiety in the mod, other than "what pew-pew shall I use to blow things away with".
Also: buying 80% of a system's much-needed resources is going to cost a LOT of money, more than selling it back would gain you. And they're not going to sell you their last supplies etc. You can probably still find a way to set things up well for yourself, but if "buy stuff, sell it back" actually netted any profit at all, that'd be a broken system.First off, I think we have a bit of confusion here; I'm not actually saying that cornering markets will be profitable or useful. I think that's one thing that this system won't really allow for or it'll be pretty pointless, in terms of reward.
I know its still conceptual, but for clarity, is the intent:
A. that 'events' are the catalyst- A generated chance occurrence based on conditions that produce a change in the environment (AKA Ship Malfunctions). EVENT: Pirate Blockade - There is a 12% chance that local raiders spawn in a system, when it occurs, the planet gains the status "famished" and prices for food increase by 200%; if GatherInformation[PLAYER STAT(>= LEVEL(10))], they are notified
or
B. that 'events' are the result - Existing information produced based on activities, displayed to the player based on their GatherInformation stat. A pirate fleet leaves Pirate Base Alpha, in System Gamma, arrives at a Hegemony Planet Beta, in System Delta, existing traders are unable to land, food stores run low, prices increase; meanwhile the player in system Charlie has GatherInformation >= LEVEL (11), is notified of the Event: a Hegemony trader announces that he was run off by pirates orbiting Planet Beta in the Delta System.
tltr: So are events the catalyst or the result.
- I'm not too sure about trade being relegated to being random quests.
-If the principles of race to the bottom are in effect, will there be many more traders and freighters running around than there are now?
what about commissioned shipping? being paid to haul cargo that isn't technically yours? I'm not sure if that falls within the purvue of the economy system, or even the scope of your game, but I always though it would be great to have a contract-based shipping element.
perhaps this would fall under a faction based job or mission, and may not be planned for the economy updates, but it's something I thought about.
QuoteWhat neutral station? Actually, it'll probably be around for the next release, but I wouldn't count on that sticking around forever.I eliminated it from Vacuum and most people weren't all that unhappy to see it go, but that's because there aren't any serious issues with choice anxiety in the mod, other than "what pew-pew shall I use to blow things away with".
I think that the concept of off-board storage is super-important in RPGs where scarcity of things to buy / loot is a given; if there's nowhere to put that Ion Cannon you've looted and don't want to sell, it can create a bit of choice anxiety for players and that's generally not a good thing.
I mainly skirted that issue in Vacuum by making sure that there was very little choice anxiety- pretty much anything you want, you can find it- but if I rein in the amount of goods available, then it's going to promptly rear its head again. Anyhow, just my $0.02 on that; choice anxiety is always present in a RPG to one extent or another but this is one of the kinds that is usually more trouble than it's worth.
...
I would like to see this be one of the first things that outposts allow: storing your stuff. Hollowing out an asteroid, painting it black, and stuffing it full of loot would actually be a really good way of hiding things in space (As Douglas Adams points out, space is unbelievably big). And a lot easier than building a 'mini-colony' that produces goods. Just don't tell anyone where it is...
@Cosmitz: Yeah, this came up a couple of posts back. It's nice to get a high-level idea that someone did something similar and it worked out well, but the last thing I want to do is pore over the details and copy it.
This means there shall be more worlds for Hegemony and Tri-Tachyon, and more variables for pirate fleets.
Im a little worried about the... validity of the trade system. if it is *only* random events creating trade opportunities, there is a large problem. Additionally, some profit should be possible even without these events, so you have something to scrounge if you really need to.
What i mean is, all these fleets of traders roaming around, if a certain station has a pirate infestation at a certain point in its orbit maybe, that prevents any traders from getting to that station, during that period prices should rise due to lack of traders visiting and prices could go up.
I agree with the assessment that from your blog post, it sounds like trading will be nothing more than a thing you get a popup quest for every now and then and do, rather than a real profession that makes buying an atlas fleet worth it. It could just be from the blog's presentation rather than your actual intentions though.
Edit: additionally, if im not a trader getting trader event popups could get very annoying. it did in evochron mercenary and that was only for distress calls.
An Atlas fleet might be just the sort of thing you can use to really cash in on an event you took pains to predict/cause, while a faster fleet might be able to be more reactive, but wouldn't have the cargo space to really capitalize.Right now, player needs Atlas fleet just to loot equal-sized opponents (bad in standard, worse in Exerelin), and being forced to use multiple Atlas ships (and Oxen and/or Navigation 10 to speed them up) for optimal play, which is a significant drain on Logistics, is obnoxious and not fun.
I will just stick to killing and looting everything that moves, and conquering NPCs' assets if possible.
I'm not sure why trade being event based would be a problem; you're saying it's because you need to be able to scrounge something up if you need to but... why is *that* necessary? In a nutshell, I see making money from standard trade as a bad thing because it encourages safe, boring trade runs. You might say that responding to an event isn't any better, but the difference (hopefully) is that you can do more interesting things to set yourself up to respond to an event effectively (such as, say, cultivating connections to get the information early, or even acting to create the necessary conditions for an event to occur), and then the actual "trade run" is the culmination of that work and planning, rather than being the actual work.
the game has also a LOT of missions you could do for money be it capturing criminals and delivering them to the police station or delivering some ornate statue to a faraway stationThis is what keeps people playing, mainly; it's like the difference between a Cardamine run in Freelancer, which was very profitable, very hazardous and very lengthy, and being able to stack up credits taking care of local bandit problems.
So the only good thing about trade in that game is that you don't have to do it? oOWell yeah trade in flatspace was just dull as hell. Pretty much a textbook example of how to not do trading as it was totally undynamic so if you found one station selling and one buying then all you EVER did as a trader was just going back and forth between them. There was no looking for trade routes supply/demand (aside of literally random price fluctuations that were too small to matter anyway because if you bought someting from an exporter and sell it to an importer you WILL make profit) or production chains at all.
But as you said, there are already plenty games that do spreadsheet trading, so I think it's great that we are getting something new here.
So the only good thing about trade in that game is that you don't have to do it? oOWell yeah trade in flatspace was just dull as hell. Pretty much a textbook example of how to not do trading as it was totally undynamic so if you found one station selling and one buying then all you EVER did as a trader was just going back and forth between them. There was no looking for trade routes supply/demand (aside of literally random price fluctuations that were too small to matter anyway because if you bought someting from an exporter and sell it to an importer you WILL make profit) or production chains at all.
But as you said, there are already plenty games that do spreadsheet trading, so I think it's great that we are getting something new here.
Now Alex wants to tie trade with events. And that's a great idea but making trade unprofitable EVERYWHERE else pretty much removes one playstyle and throws it out of the window.
Exploiting opportunities is all well and good until those opportunities dry up, in which case a player with a fleet full of freighters and tugs might as well just hold down shift until an appropriate event pops up. That might be an issue, but it wouldn't break trading.
Exploiting opportunities is all well and good until those opportunities dry up, in which case a player with a fleet full of freighters and tugs might as well just hold down shift until an appropriate event pops up. That might be an issue, but it wouldn't break trading.
Well, if the average time between events is < the average time needed to resolve an event, there should be no problem. In fact, Alex plans to actually limit the information we get about events, so I would assume there will be several of them happening simultaneuosly, of which you have to choose one to interact with. Of course getting information abut an event is part of the challenge as well, that's probably what a trader spents his time on between actual runs.
If profitable trading can come only from pop-up quest events, it does not sound like something worth bothering.I have to agree with Megas here. I think the main reason why people wanted trade is that they wanted another source of income incase of "death spiral" situations. Trade has almost always been the low risk, low reward non combat income choice for people starting out or restarting. (IE got blown up and have very little money) But in this situation the risk is higher, the reward is unknown and the source of income isn't always there, relies on the RNG AND could involve combat from the looks of it.
I will just stick to killing and looting everything that moves, and conquering NPCs' assets if possible.Quote from: AlexAn Atlas fleet might be just the sort of thing you can use to really cash in on an event you took pains to predict/cause, while a faster fleet might be able to be more reactive, but wouldn't have the cargo space to really capitalize.Right now, player needs Atlas fleet just to loot equal-sized opponents (bad in standard, worse in Exerelin), and being forced to use multiple Atlas ships (and Oxen and/or Navigation 10 to speed them up) for optimal play, which is a significant drain on Logistics, is obnoxious and not fun.
I think the main reason why people wanted trade is that they wanted another source of income incase of "death spiral" situations. Trade has almost always been the low risk, low reward non combat income choice for people starting out or restarting.Also for those who care less about low-level twitch-fighting and care more about high-level corporate management. For example, one player just wants to blast ships like in an arcade shump, while another wants to abstract away all combat and focus on building up and running a (virtual) business.
...
Also, why bother having a "normal" trade system in if all you are going to do is make it an unprofitable trap for new players? And yes, I truly feel as this is a newbie trap.
...
-Death Spiral
...
-Since this isn't a "quest," most likely the only reward will be money, meaning that combat WILL be needed to level up industry
...
There are also some REDACTED ideas about making travel through non-hostile territory hazardous.
This new trade system kind of reminds me of how the crew of Firefly got by - looking for opportunities, making deals with shady sorts... they certainly didn't have a cake trade run to go back and forth on. Then again their ship was unarmed and constantly falling apart due to lack of funds for repairs... (CR problems anyone?)
The way of the pirate pros:The biggest one for me not yet mentioned - XP and levels! I want to reach level 50+ for power!
And speaking of levels, will they be getting rebalanced? Will the soft cap be moved upwards? Will there be an increase in what you get per level?This is why I anticipate Industry with dread, if it gets must-have skills akin to Fleet Logistics. Level 40 is roughly my soft cap in standard 0.6.2, but my preferred level is higher.
There are also some REDACTED ideas about making travel through non-hostile territory hazardous.This new trade system kind of reminds me of how the crew of Firefly got by - looking for opportunities, making deals with shady sorts... they certainly didn't have a cake trade run to go back and forth on. Then again their ship was unarmed and constantly falling apart due to lack of funds for repairs... (CR problems anyone?)
Mh, I wouldn't mind it at all if some of the hazards of space travel were of technological nature. Especially early on, while your tech skills are low and you fly an old rust bucket, maybe something just gives and you have no hope but to be rescued. You know, Firefly's "Out of Gas"-episode.
As intriguing as I find the idea, I cannot see any semblance of fun in the suggestion :-\ it's just taking control away from the player and forcing them to rely on the lucky chance that a good person rescues them rather than pirates or someone they're hostile withActually, the "ran out of gas" mechanic in EV was a lot more fun than the current "ran out of gas" mechanic in SS.
The death spiral is mostly a myth. Yes it takes a little time to get used to the system, but once you do its easy to not death spiral.Wait, no. Last update was mainly about CR rebal and a whole in-game tutorial system, just to fix the problems with 0.6, yo. Note the complete lack of flamey posts these days about this stuff; it got fixed.
I think that ability to scrounge if you need to is neccasarry because currently, especially for new players, doing anything at all can be difficult without a straight winning streak vs very small hostile fleets. This streak is even harder to accomplish considering that they are actually new players who are still learning combat. Anyone who gets wiped out gets shot back down to one frigate, and if they didnt save, no money. there has to be something for people to do in these situations other than just gamble on finding enough lone enemy frigates to kill before their supply cost outweighs the gain.Im a little worried about the... validity of the trade system. if it is *only* random events creating trade opportunities, there is a large problem. Additionally, some profit should be possible even without these events, so you have something to scrounge if you really need to.
What i mean is, all these fleets of traders roaming around, if a certain station has a pirate infestation at a certain point in its orbit maybe, that prevents any traders from getting to that station, during that period prices should rise due to lack of traders visiting and prices could go up.
I agree with the assessment that from your blog post, it sounds like trading will be nothing more than a thing you get a popup quest for every now and then and do, rather than a real profession that makes buying an atlas fleet worth it. It could just be from the blog's presentation rather than your actual intentions though.
Edit: additionally, if im not a trader getting trader event popups could get very annoying. it did in evochron mercenary and that was only for distress calls.
Was just looking through the comments and realized I totally missed this one; sorry about that!
I'm not sure why trade being event based would be a problem; you're saying it's because you need to be able to scrounge something up if you need to but... why is *that* necessary? In a nutshell, I see making money from standard trade as a bad thing because it encourages safe, boring trade runs. You might say that responding to an event isn't any better, but the difference (hopefully) is that you can do more interesting things to set yourself up to respond to an event effectively (such as, say, cultivating connections to get the information early, or even acting to create the necessary conditions for an event to occur), and then the actual "trade run" is the culmination of that work and planning, rather than being the actual work.
An Atlas fleet might be just the sort of thing you can use to really cash in on an event you took pains to predict/cause, while a faster fleet might be able to be more reactive, but wouldn't have the cargo space to really capitalize.
As far as the UI, popups would indeed be annoying. The idea is that you get messages (in the lower left corner, that widget is being reworked), and you can click on them to get additional information if you're interested. Otherwise, they can just be ignored.
At some point, there probably needs to be structures in place that negatively reward killing everybody indiscriminately as well, like bounty hunters being sent directly after you, etc. I really think that the life of the Pirate should be pretty exciting, in that sense.To that, I say "more XP and loot!", much like the Tarman zombie (from Return of the Living Dead) exclaiming "More brains!"
-snip-Matt here took the words right out of my mouth. While most vets here can beat the initial hurdle relatively easy, most newbies won't as they won't have the information that we do and in war, intel is power.
Anyone who gets wiped out gets shot back down to one frigate, and if they didnt save, no money. there has to be something for people to do in these situations other than just gamble on finding enough lone enemy frigates to kill before their supply cost outweighs the gain.
Players who like to be traders in games laugh at the idea of "i will trade when a popup tells me i can", because its rediculous.
I'm figuring on the several events at once thing as well, and I would assume at least some of the perks from the industry tree would have to do with getting information quicker or getting more precise information
Alex, you're going to have a tab in the UI we can go to that just shows the current Events, right?
If we highlight an Event, will it do nice UI stuff like highlight the destination(s) so that newbies know where to go? I think that's important.
Heck, it'd be really nice if newbies could call up the Hyperspace map even when they aren't in Hyperspace, too; that's a fairly-small UI project that could go a long way, especially if they could call that up, click on a destination System, see the System in that view, click on their final destination, and have their fleet's autopilot do like the AI's does, pathfinding-wise.
Are Events going to get their own completion Dialog? Or get tied into existing Dialogs? I'd prefer the former, honestly; I think it'll be much more flexible and it won't break mods.
I think that ability to scrounge if you need to is neccasarry because currently, especially for new players, doing anything at all can be difficult without a straight winning streak vs very small hostile fleets. This streak is even harder to accomplish considering that they are actually new players who are still learning combat. Anyone who gets wiped out gets shot back down to one frigate, and if they didnt save, no money. there has to be something for people to do in these situations other than just gamble on finding enough lone enemy frigates to kill before their supply cost outweighs the gain.
and the main issue with it is that you cant become a "trader" you're just at most some guy who has an atlas sitting in storage for these random events that pop up once in awhile. I feel like it could be more, especially if there were outside factors you could use to manipulate prices such as deciding to blockade a certain outpost or a source of materials, or shooting down rival trade fleets.
In mount and blade, a game with a similar sandbox overworld, trade was somewhat nebulously presented to the player, but the way it worked is an interesting example. Every town had a certain amount of prosperity determined by the facilities built within, how much surplus it had, and how many traders would come to it. Now, traders would only trade with prosperous towns, creating a feedback loop. The differences in prices of goods between towns became legitimate, because towns with serious bandit infestation problems in the surroundings would pay much more. This scales the risk with the reward for trading: there isn't a force on the player to necessarily find the absolute safest route because the profit won't be worth his time. If the player risks being spotted by a party of bandits, he may have to defend himself. If he outmaneuvers them, he gets away.
The challenge for Alex will be to make 'events' appear congruent with the actions within and around the systems so that the player can get to either predict or attempt to influence the various variables that make things happen.
I could be wrong of course, but it sounds to me like this is the sort of thing that is being aimed for - events aimed to be more like specific things that REFLECT the state of a system, which are necessarily granular so that the player has a chance of identifying and interacting with these things - but are not necessarily determined on the basis of a roll of a d6, or having a certain number active at any time.
Could you talk a bit about Trade scale? The "large Atlas convoys" mentioned in the Atlas description makes it seem like you can't fix a food shortage on a core world even if you max your fleet out with Atlases. You would need multiple fleets? You would need to encourage or protect other convoys too?
BTW, thanks for interacting with your community to the degree you do. Its really quite incredible, many devs like to insulate themselves from most suggestions and any criticisms, and i think there's something lost when that happens.
And I would also like to thank Alex for his involvement in the community!
I tried being a merchant in M&B btw, was bored the moment I saw that the ideal trade routes were already mapped out by others on the net.
I don't imagine they'd get a "Dialog" at all. You'll find out that an event is over through the news.Oh; I figured you'd get a Pat On The Back for delivering those Antivirals to the world that had been struck by the Phage Plague or whatnot, or a nasty message from Tri-Tachyon after helping to deliver those Universal Weapons Kits to a Shrine of Ludd :)
QuoteI don't imagine they'd get a "Dialog" at all. You'll find out that an event is over through the news.Oh; I figured you'd get a Pat On The Back for delivering those Antivirals to the world that had been struck by the Phage Plague or whatnot, or a nasty message from Tri-Tachyon after helping to deliver those Universal Weapons Kits to a Shrine of Ludd :)
Anyhow, just a thought; it helps make things special for the player and provide motivation and all that. But I'll be happy enough if it just doesn't break everything to the point where I have to rebuild Vacuum a fourth time, lol :)
Will you be making station inventory stocking more limited and realistic during this phase of development?
Altho if making a trade system irks you tnen maybe... Transport Tycoon IN SPACE!
Simply put if your relations with a planet are good enough you can get "freight" missions that require the transporation of a certain ammount of goods provided by the planet to another planet (connected with a trade route).
You can do those missions manually or delegate some of your ships to do the freight running for you and with time (and planetary reations) you might get a contract to deliver goods at a regular basis you can (and should) delegate ships to because doing so manually would be a bore. Also cowardly officers that might become availble in the future would be the PERFECT ones for the job.
Over time you freight empire would span several planets and bed things wold happen if you decided to stop transporting goods for some reason.
This way we get some "trading" a logical trade system and a relatively safe source of credits in case of unforseen things happening to your fleet.
Of course said credits would not be great considering you're not the actual trader but do the footwork for ACTUAL traders.
I'm not sure why trade being event based would be a problem; you're saying it's because you need to be able to scrounge something up if you need to but... why is *that* necessary? In a nutshell, I see making money from standard trade as a bad thing because it encourages safe, boring trade runs. You might say that responding to an event isn't any better, but the difference (hopefully) is that you can do more interesting things to set yourself up to respond to an event effectively (such as, say, cultivating connections to get the information early, or even acting to create the necessary conditions for an event to occur), and then the actual "trade run" is the culmination of that work and planning, rather than being the actual work.
There is a thing you overlook alex. There are players who simply LOVE doing spreadsheet style trading. Look at the X series and its fanbase... a giant part of the game is about trade and creating/shipping goods.
While you might think that simply going from A to B is boring ther ARE people who like doing just that so instead of discouraging people from commerce at every corner you should instead encourage people to do something else.
It's a valid point about new players, but, a counter-point: the "event" system could actually make it much easier for someone getting started. Part of the early difficulty is in figuring out what to do; profitable trade routes don't help if you don't know about them. One open route that you know about, due to news about something happening, is worth 10 routes you'd have to try to go all Excel on to figure out.
There are also some REDACTED ideas about making early-game combat more new-player-friendly in a way that makes in-fiction sense. But it's REDACTED.
coconut-hungry dancing robots that refuse to dance without themI... man, that almost makes me want to make an Event system prototype.
-snip-
Indeed, what would be a better time to bring these things up than when things are still in motion! ;)-snip-
You know that nothing is finalized, right?
He's really only presenting the basic premise of where this game will go next.
Agreed. It will be the first big mechanic outside the combat system. As such it will be indicative of if Alex' ability to carry over his design skill from combat to other aspects of the game. How great of a game can Starsector become? I'm very hopeful.
New version shall be released on Fri, April 11th 2014. How do I know this?idk, that seems soon. more likely right before finals
Simple. I have two MBA assignments due the Monday after.