Fractal Softworks Forum
Starsector => General Discussion => Topic started by: Nanostrike on June 21, 2013, 09:16:49 PM
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Has anyone else noticed that after all the recent AI changes, that the AI is a little bit too spot-on with their shielding? I can understand this on Elite or Veteran-Crewed ships, but it's on all of them and it's really frustrating.
You can almost never overload them unless you launch missiles, because they will stagger their shields on and off every second JUST at maximum flux to minimize damage. And unless some other missile is incoming, they will ALWAYS drop their shields when a Sabot Missile is incoming.
I'm not saying they're unbeatable or even close, but it's made Sabots almost useless in my current game and it lets the larger ships do some ridiculous shield on-off stuttering to avoid damage.
Is there any chance of this getting adjusted? I know it was made so Elite/Veteran crews have better aiming, repairs, and performance boosts than Green/Regulars. I think that the AI efficiency of the ships needs to be scaled as well. Green Recruits shouldn't be able to perfectly time their shields to avoid overload every time.
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well... tbh I think the AI isn't the problem, I do the shield stutter all the time too
if anything, I think there could be a shield open delay or a flux cost like how phase shields are right now. That is, if you think shield stuttering is a problem at all, which I might be inclined to agree with but I'm not sure yet
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Sometimes, I find it the ai don't vent/ drop shields for extended periods of time when they could easily clear their flux buildup.
But I think that the Ai is a bit too good at using fortress shields :P
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Yea i think they should use venting more...
What i wish was that when my ship come with a omni shield gen, i can aim it without haveing to move my mouse. It is hard to hit something and when missles (or enemies) come room behind i have to stop shooting because i can't aim properly at the person in front .
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If you're confident in your ship's autofire capabilities, you can quickly look at a ship, target it, then move shields back into position and let your guns focus down the harasser.
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If anything the Shield AI is actually quite poor. It has difficulty handling priority over which side to block fire from. It doesn't drop as soon as it should which causes issues when dissipation is needed. It prefers to rotate the shield rather than dropping and bringing it back up to catch the projectile. Stuff like that leaves me doubtful it's anywhere near as good as you say.
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If anything the Shield AI is actually quite poor. It has difficulty handling priority over which side to block fire from. It doesn't drop as soon as it should which causes issues when dissipation is needed. It prefers to rotate the shield rather than dropping and bringing it back up to catch the projectile. Stuff like that leaves me doubtful it's anywhere near as good as you say.
Yes, because this game would be so fun to play if the AI was perfect at using the shield.
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It's not fun to play if the AI is poor at using its shields either.
In any case, I don't see how you got that claim from Reshy's comment. Did you quote the correct person?
From my experience and gleaming from the comments in the thread it seems that veteran players will know the defects of the AI's usage of the shields enough to abuse it, but the AI is smart enough that newer players or some people that don't pilot that well will face a challenge.
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I always get front shield emitter because i can't control the ship AND the shields at the same time. I wish i could set shields to auto-turning so i can focus on flying and shooting. I could be better than AI if i had 4 hands and 2 mice to control the ship.
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You dont want AI to control your omni-shield because once you near any friendly ship AI will try to shield ship from friendly "possible" ramming damage and ignore all enemy fire in the process. With front shield emitter its even worse.
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You dont want AI to control your omni-shield because once you near any friendly ship AI will try to shield ship from friendly "possible" ramming damage and ignore all enemy fire in the process. With front shield emitter its even worse.
finally someone who dont want auto sielding ;P
& a question as for the topic:
AI shielding too good. . . for . . . who ? (no offence )
human aint too perfect and neither do AI , i can't perfectly dodge or protect my ship with an omni shield but i certenally dont want AI don't it for me
this is't an EA game
what purpose is "playing" a game that plays it for you ?
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what purpose is "playing" a game that plays it for you ?
Level and/or money grinding! Especially if soft cap is at a level lower than one desires to play at.
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I can't tell if you're serious or not :D. I often wish that game designers had never discovered how addicting to players grinding is, because it can really annoy me...
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It was originally intended as a joke reply, but it has a sobering element of truth that can be taken seriously. I can see people grinding Starsector for days, or even weeks, to get a character beyond level 60. Years ago, people would play Diablo 2 for months, despite SEVERE experience penalties, just to get a character to maximum level of 99.
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Its sad that its true... in most games I find early and intermediate levels much more fun than the upper caps... that depends on the game and scaling system (if any) of course.
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back to the thread topic, I would agree with nanostrike that the AI's shield usage is what I'd call poor macro compensated by really good micro. It makes sub-optimal (bad) strategic decisions about when to vent, i.e. it doesn't when a small window opens up where a skilled player will trade off a bit of armor or hull damage to empty 25%-50% of the flux cap. Or, it waits in a long window to make absolutely sure no damage will hit it, when a skilled player would accept a bit of damage (if the AI suicided into them) in order to get the max speed boost, opening up tactical options for the player. It makes sub-optimal decisions on when to raise shields, such as right after! it bumps into the asteroid, imparting velocity that would prevent a second hit but not before taking the armor damage.
To be fair, it is likely really really hard to program an AI to make optimal decisions. I certainly can't think of a rule-set that would be required. So, in part to compensate for poor flux reduction choices there is spot-on flux cap management. It's a trade-off that can feel cheap sometimes, but what would the alternative be?
edit: and I guess to answer that question, I kind of like nanostrike's idea of crew levels imparting some differentiation within the AI's "micro" to use the above analogy, while the captain's traits would give differentiation to the "macro" AI decisions.
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back to the thread topic, I would agree with nanostrike that the AI's shield usage is what I'd call poor macro compensated by really good micro. It makes sub-optimal (bad) strategic decisions about when to vent, i.e. it doesn't when a small window opens up where a skilled player will trade off a bit of armor or hull damage to empty 25%-50% of the flux cap. Or, it waits in a long window to make absolutely sure no damage will hit it, when a skilled player would accept a bit of damage (if the AI suicided into them) in order to get the max speed boost, opening up tactical options for the player. It makes sub-optimal decisions on when to raise shields, such as right after! it bumps into the asteroid, imparting velocity that would prevent a second hit but not before taking the armor damage.
To be fair, it is likely really really hard to program an AI to make optimal decisions. I certainly can't think of a rule-set that would be required. So, in part to compensate for poor flux reduction choices there is spot-on flux cap management. It's a trade-off that can feel cheap sometimes, but what would the alternative be?
edit: and I guess to answer that question, I kind of like nanostrike's idea of crew levels imparting some differentiation within the AI's "micro" to use the above analogy, while the captain's traits would give differentiation to the "macro" AI decisions.
This is pretty much what I was saying. I can beat the AI pretty easily. It's just VERY annoying how easily they can stutter their shields on/off and perfectly time dropping them to avoid Sabots and such with a Green Crew while I watch my crew of Elites on an AI-Piloted ship do all sorts of stupid shennanigans with their shields, like being overloaded by Broadsword wings because they won't lower their shields and take the tiny bit of damage from those Swarm Missiles.
It's kinda at the point where you can't overload the AI's shields without either a Strike Weapon (Antimatter Blaster, ect) or some sort of missiles unless it makes a really boneheaded decision.
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When I try to kill the AI with a beam only ship, say starting Wolf vs. enemy Lasher, the AI "stutters" its shield usage perfectly such that it takes the longest time possible to kill it.
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When I try to kill the AI with a beam only ship, say starting Wolf vs. enemy Lasher, the AI "stutters" its shield usage perfectly such that it takes the longest time possible to kill it.
And it'll do this at nearly full flux. A human trying to play it that close would be at a HUGE risk of overload, but the AI can manage to perfectly time it. Stuff like this is what I'm talking about.
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Actully i take advantage of the AI shielding use.
I use Tempest... they are awsome. and there drones are helpful but not a nessecity to me.
In the early game i was a single tempest with either 2 Phase Beam or 1 Phase and 1 Gravity. (i aimed for the 2 phase). and I would easily kill the pirates even against larger ships. I play smart.
On a 1v1, (so me vs a Lasher or a larger ship) i use the phase beam to hit him, and his shields stay up. I use the long range of the beams to get out of his assults gun range and use my shields to avoid being hit by his crippling misslies. When ever my flux get to high, i actully just vent flux but keep within range of him. The ai will some how think that i am still going to shot him despit me venting. He keeps his shields up and I get to do this all over again. And when his flux gets to high, and he has to drop it. I get to tear him a new one.
Useing this i like to have a squadren of tempest. useing Hit and Run tactics. By seperating them out and using a bunch of tempest lasers at once. I can easily overload even the larger ships like the Enforcers. I was actully able to take out the Pirate Armada Fleet with just 5 Tempest. (though more than i liked escaped and i just had to fight them a 2nd time to die)
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The AI shield usage is quite good but has some noticeable flaws. On low tech ships, such as the dominator, it is far too cautious and keeps shields raised if you are so much as looking in its general direction. This prevents it from dissipating flux efficiently (due to the flux upkeep of the shield) for no real gain, as changes to the speed at which frontal shields raise has made it much more difficult to "snipe" or slowly pick away at the edges of the ship before shields can be raised to block the shots (which is most likely the reason for its overly cautious behaviour).
It is also predictable in always trying to block explosive missiles with the shield, to such an extent that raising the enemy ship to high flux and firing a harpoon will almost always cause it to raise shields and you can easily overload it by firing at it as the harpoon is on approach. I find doing so to be much more effective at overloading ships than using sabots funnily enough.
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Making shields have to drop at the same speed they deploy (or slower) would make dedicated anti-shield weapons with a travel time like Sabots much more useful. It'd also open up the possibility of a shield skill (and augment) that's more interesting than %upkeep reduction and %flux per damage. Perhaps even partly crew veterancy dependent.