Fractal Softworks Forum

Starsector => General Discussion => Blog Posts => Topic started by: Alex on May 25, 2013, 02:51:23 PM

Title: Logistics & Fleet Management
Post by: Alex on May 25, 2013, 02:51:23 PM
Blog post here (http://fractalsoftworks.com/2013/05/25/logistics-fleet-management/).
Title: Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
Post by: Thaago on May 25, 2013, 03:00:07 PM
Cool. I like the separation of combat vs non-combat role costs - should make for some interesting possible scenarios.
Title: Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
Post by: FloW on May 25, 2013, 03:04:17 PM
I can't wait for the new patch. This is all interesting stuff and I really want to see how it plays.

It's also nice to see that the game changes so much.

Seriously though, Alex, that new patch sounds awesome. How much of the coding is already done?
Title: Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
Post by: Alex on May 25, 2013, 03:14:53 PM
How much of the coding is already done?

For the whole update? Can't really estimate, though it's definitely winding down. For the stuff in the blog post, it's all functional, but the UI is very much WIP. You may have noticed a lack of screenshots; that's why.
Title: Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
Post by: Pelly on May 25, 2013, 03:34:03 PM
This is a really big updatemibob, so I will splurge out my thoughts on it.

From what I understand the Logistics side of thing will not (really) affect the combat side of things, unless you count the CR, which is really good that we now have something else to micromanage while pursuing the hordes of pirates for their supplies.

But I have one real big query apart from the obvious one that will mean all modded ships would need a bit of reworking to get the same kind of dynamic, the big query is what this new stat would mean for fighters and any other systems used in combat that uses supplies, would this affect the Logistics value? e.g. having 3 flights of Talons resupply in combat  would having that many fighters affect my Logistics value out of combat?
Title: Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
Post by: Alex on May 25, 2013, 03:43:10 PM
But I have one real big query apart from the obvious one that will mean all modded ships would need a bit of reworking to get the same kind of dynamic, the big query is what this new stat would mean for fighters and any other systems used in combat that uses supplies, would this affect the Logistics value? e.g. having 3 flights of Talons resupply in combat  would having that many fighters affect my Logistics value out of combat?

Good question, hadn't considered it; but the way fighters work will change, so that won't be an issue.
Title: Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
Post by: Pelly on May 25, 2013, 03:47:05 PM
Phew that made me worry a bit then.

(Adding/added in some 17 fighters so would not be happy if they broke in a month or less knowing how you ambush with releases :P )
Title: Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
Post by: Gigalith on May 25, 2013, 04:21:57 PM
I'm liking the focus on extra-combat logistics in general. I'm also liking the the way things like this act like "soft" caps. Yeah, you can have your giant mega-fleet without taking any extra skills, but you'll have constant accidents, low combat readiness, and whatnot.

I have a few thoughts/questions:

Does the CR reduction from overloaded logistics apply linearly? i.e. 50% LR gives -25% Max CR.

It seems to me that one could run a fleet for only a fraction of its cost if you had all ships with maximum CR. It'd shoot back up after the first battle. Might make sense for some kind of trading fleet sacrificing supply storage for more goods, hoping it never has to actually fight. Then again, depending on how hard it is to reach max CR this may or may not be actually viable.

How much does, say, the Hegemony SDF use in daily supplies? Will an Atlas need to keep the Onslaughts company?
Title: Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
Post by: Alex on May 25, 2013, 04:35:51 PM
Does the CR reduction from overloaded logistics apply linearly? i.e. 50% LR gives -25% Max CR.

Yep, linear.

It seems to me that one could run a fleet for only a fraction of its cost if you had all ships with maximum CR. It'd shoot back up after the first battle. Might make sense for some kind of trading fleet sacrificing supply storage for more goods, hoping it never has to actually fight. Then again, depending on how hard it is to reach max CR this may or may not be actually viable.

If you take a more careful look at the blog post, that's actually how it works :) Kind of. Maintenance costs a lot less supplies when ships are at maximum CR, the key difference being that the logistics impact of the ship is still the same - the full maintenance cost.

I'm sure we can come up with some reasonable in-fiction explanation for why that is. Lets, uh, say that the needs of a ship at maximum readiness are more difficult to anticipate, while a ship that's not at that level has a workplan all mapped out, since it's already clear what needs fixing where.


How much does, say, the Hegemony SDF use in daily supplies? Will an Atlas need to keep the Onslaughts company?

I'm aiming for maybe a 1-2 month deployment for larger ships w/o freighters and such. Frigate and destroyers can spend less time on their own, while fighters obviously need support due to not having any cargo capacity.

Of course, that time greatly depends on the repairs that need doing, and whether the fleet sees a lot of action.
Title: Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
Post by: Silver Silence on May 25, 2013, 04:39:06 PM
Eh, the blogpost didn't explain much for me either.  :P
Guess I'll just have to wait and play 0.6 and hope my one-man-army doom fleet still works. I much prefer flying my ships myself because I just don't trust the AI with what I think is a good (and usually expensive) fit, only to lose it in the first meagre fight. Fighters work for me because they no-clip which means no friendly fire issues or derpy AI blocking shots, and of course, they refit in combat.


How much does, say, the Hegemony SDF use in daily supplies? Will an Atlas need to keep the Onslaughts company?

I'm aiming for maybe a 1-2 month deployment for larger ships w/o freighters and such. Frigate and destroyers can spend less time on their own, while fighters obviously need support due to not having any cargo capacity.

Of course, that time greatly depends on the repairs that need doing, and whether the fleet sees a lot of action.

Will a lone battleship or carrier with fighters be able to handle "the great outdoors", as it were?
Title: Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
Post by: Decer304 on May 25, 2013, 05:34:14 PM
Very nice post. Although i do wonder, after reading about the supplies part,  would fighters that dock and repair at a carrier consume, or when a ship fixes its guns and engines consume supplies and if so, would there be some sort of section in the post-combat report where it gives you some stats and supplies consumed for the in-combat repairs? Because that would add alot more depth in the game.
Title: Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
Post by: Gigalith on May 25, 2013, 05:43:26 PM
I'm aiming for maybe a 1-2 month deployment for larger ships w/o freighters and such. Frigate and destroyers can spend less time on their own, while fighters obviously need support due to not having any cargo capacity.

Of course, that time greatly depends on the repairs that need doing, and whether the fleet sees a lot of action.

The ISS Black Star might not be quite so independent, then. The idea of a lone ship against the world has romance to it, if not necessarily logical sense. Perhaps there could a skill for reducing the costs of the piloted ship alone, to provide room for one-ship fleets.

Then again, the Max CR supply reduction might be enough on its own. There may be only one battle between resupplies, as I figure the standard mercenary life is as following:

1) Find mission.
2) Blow stuff up.
3) Return to base to repair, refit, and refuel, then back to 1).

This is, of course, if everything goes right.  ;)

@Decer304: Currently, repairing fighters does use supplies, and it says so in the battle messages. It doesn't give an amount used after battle as far as I know.
Title: Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
Post by: Sproginator on May 25, 2013, 06:01:11 PM
You just couldn't let me sleep, could you?
Title: Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
Post by: naufrago on May 25, 2013, 06:06:49 PM
Well, the blog post didn't really tell me much I hadn't already assumed from the patch notes, but it's good to have confirmation regardless. =p I do like how you handled things with LR, always a fan of clever design.
Title: Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
Post by: Gothars on May 25, 2013, 06:10:08 PM
Thank you for following up with a detailed explanation so swiftly Alex. It sounds all very intriguing. Can't wait to actually try it.

Still, questions:
If the maximum CR is reduced by a <100% LR value, where does the "reduced maintenance cost for ship with full CR" effect come into play? At absolute maximum CR or at the current, reduced maximum CR?


You said before that a 100%CR ship will be a rare sight and that about 50% CR ships will be the norm. That had me expecting that keeping a ship at ~50% would result in the lowest maintenance cost and keeping it at 100% would cost a lot of extra supplies and be only possible for a short time. Now it turns out that 100%CR has actually the lowest permanent costs. I could not really see anything that necessitates the condition described in your old statement, did I overlook something (Which is very possible due to large amounts of Haselnussschnaps. Yeah, we have words with 3 s now.) or did you change your approach?
Title: Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
Post by: naufrago on May 25, 2013, 06:22:21 PM
Thank you for following up with a detailed explanation so swiftly Alex. It sounds all very intriguing. Can't wait to actually try it.

Still, questions:
If the maximum CR is reduced by a <100% LR value, where does the "reduced maintenance cost for ship with full CR" effect come into play? At absolute maximum CR or at the current, reduced maximum CR?


You said before that a 100%CR ship will be a rare sight and that about 50% CR ships will be the norm. That had me expecting that keeping a ship at ~50% would result in the lowest maintenance cost and keeping it at 100% would cost a lot of extra supplies and be only possible for a short time. Now it turns out that 100%CR has actually the lowest permanent costs. I could not really see anything that necessitates the condition described in your old statement, did I overlook something (Which is very possible due to large amounts of Haselnussschnaps. Yeah, we have words with 3 s now.) or did you change your approach?


I'm assuming the bonus is only at 100%CR, not the reduced maximum.

Also, I would assume that it just takes a while for CR to get all the way up to 100%. That, combined with the likeliness of pushing your LR below 100% (fleet in need of repairs, carrying a ton of loot, etc.) makes 100%CR uncommon, especially for larger fleets that already have high logistics costs. Also, frequent combat deployment makes it unlikely for any non-civilian ship to maintain high CR for long.

EDIT: Oh, just noticed this-
Quote
The things that consume supplies are:
  • Ship maintenance – ships have a new stats that indicates how many supplies per day they require for maintenance. More on that later.
  • Combat readiness (“CR”) recovery

The daily supply expenditure on all of that is added up, and together with the logistics stat, is used to produce a logistics rating (“LR”), which is a percentage value.
...
The solution here is that recovering CR doesn’t actually cost any supplies. Rather, being at maximum CR reduces the ship maintenance cost dramatically, but the full value still counts against the logistics rating. So, CR changes have no impact on the logistics rating.

You may want to remove "Combat readiness (“CR”) recovery" from that list, since it's a bit confusing/contradictory and basically already covered by "ship maintenance".
Title: Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
Post by: Alex on May 25, 2013, 07:15:26 PM
Very nice post. Although i do wonder, after reading about the supplies part,  would fighters that dock and repair at a carrier consume, or when a ship fixes its guns and engines consume supplies and if so, would there be some sort of section in the post-combat report where it gives you some stats and supplies consumed for the in-combat repairs? Because that would add alot more depth in the game.

Refer to my answer to Pelhamds' question a little above :)

Will a lone battleship or carrier with fighters be able to handle "the great outdoors", as it were?

Sure. You probably would want to have some freighters along if you're going off exploring an area where resupply may be impossible, though.


The ISS Black Star might not be quite so independent, then. The idea of a lone ship against the world has romance to it, if not necessarily logical sense. Perhaps there could a skill for reducing the costs of the piloted ship alone, to provide room for one-ship fleets.

Then again, the Max CR supply reduction might be enough on its own. There may be only one battle between resupplies, as I figure the standard mercenary life is as following:

1) Find mission.
2) Blow stuff up.
3) Return to base to repair, refit, and refuel, then back to 1).

This is, of course, if everything goes right.  ;)

Right, that kind of a skill is a possibility. Also keep in mind that winning a battle is likely to give you a decent amount of supplies as loot.


Still, questions:
If the maximum CR is reduced by a <100% LR value, where does the "reduced maintenance cost for ship with full CR" effect come into play? At absolute maximum CR or at the current, reduced maximum CR?

It's based on the reduced maximum. Whenever I say "maximum CR", it's the current maximum. The absolute maximum is 100%, but since that doesn't change, one might as well refer to it as "100%" rather than "maximum".

Oh, side note: elite crew is back to requiring 100% of the crew to be elite on all ships, in the name of simplicity. Also, the actual average level is used, it's only discretized for picking which crew rank icon to display. So, a half and half green/regular crew would get a max CR of 55%, while all-regular would be 60%.


You said before that a 100%CR ship will be a rare sight and that about 50% CR ships will be the norm. That had me expecting that keeping a ship at ~50% would result in the lowest maintenance cost and keeping it at 100% would cost a lot of extra supplies and be only possible for a short time. Now it turns out that 100%CR has actually the lowest permanent costs.

An all-green crew gives +50% to maximum CR. An all-elite crew gives +80%. Combat aptitude 10 gives another +20% (+2% per level). These are all subject to change at some point, but with these values, the only way to get 100% CR right now is an all-elite crew and a captain with 10 combat aptitude.

So, for a ship with green crew, it's CR would max out at 50%, at which point the reduced supply cost would kick in.

... Haselnussschnaps. ...

So, google tells me this is a real thing. Oooook!


EDIT: Oh, just noticed this-
Quote
The things that consume supplies are:
  • Ship maintenance – ships have a new stats that indicates how many supplies per day they require for maintenance. More on that later.
  • Combat readiness (“CR”) recovery

The daily supply expenditure on all of that is added up, and together with the logistics stat, is used to produce a logistics rating (“LR”), which is a percentage value.
...
The solution here is that recovering CR doesn’t actually cost any supplies. Rather, being at maximum CR reduces the ship maintenance cost dramatically, but the full value still counts against the logistics rating. So, CR changes have no impact on the logistics rating.

You may want to remove "Combat readiness (“CR”) recovery" from that list, since it's a bit confusing/contradictory and basically already covered by "ship maintenance".

I think it makes sense as-is. The idea is to get across the point that CR recovery does cost supplies, and singling it out in that list does that, while the later explanation/correction clarifies just how it works.
Title: Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
Post by: PCCL on May 25, 2013, 11:05:05 PM
hmm...

am I the only one who doesn't quite like the "accidents occur when at %0 for over a day" thing? It's kinda like the current system where you can sail safely just under a certain threshold, but the moment you go juuuust a little bit over it all hell breaks loose, maybe something of an exponential increase might be more helpful here
Title: Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
Post by: Decer304 on May 25, 2013, 11:46:34 PM
hmm...

am I the only one who doesn't quite like the "accidents occur when at %0 for over a day" thing? It's kinda like the current system where you can sail safely just under a certain threshold, but the moment you go juuuust a little bit over it all hell breaks loose, maybe something of an exponential increase might be more helpful here

Yeah, your not alone. I'm not too sure about that as well, especially a day in the game is like a few seconds in real life. Maybe a week, then accidents can occur, i just feel that a day is a little too short. But, i cant tell for sure cos i, or anyone else that not alex havnt played the game with that implemented.
Title: Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
Post by: Gothars on May 26, 2013, 01:43:17 AM
No no no guys, it is beautiful! It is elegant and beautiful.

As you say gunny, right now a single piece of cargo makes the difference between accident risk or no such thing. The condition of the fleet is completely irrelevant for that.

With the update, everything is interlocked. You can absolutely go beyond the cargo limit, you just have to watch out that your fleet is up to it. Are heavy repairs going on in your fleet? You can actually pause them to carry that extra freight to the next station risk-free. Is your fuel limit exceeded as well? You can dumb some of that instead of your precious cargo. Oh, one of your ships has completed preparing for combat! It now can focus all its attention on safely storing extra cargo.

There are just so many ways to make your fleet focus on what you think is most important now, it's much more flexible and organic. The one day accident buffer is just so you have time to notice and act, I believe.



So, google tells me this is a real thing. Oooook!

See, I had my second question based on an assumed answer to the first one (whose falseness should also have been obvious from the beginning) without even noticing. I now feel deep and everlasting shame. Don't drink and try logical thinking kids, it could ruin your life!
Title: Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
Post by: harperrb on May 26, 2013, 07:29:05 AM
Quick question Alex,

Could/Should the system map mechanic of "moving" as opposed to "not moving"(or sitting there allowing time to pass) be a factor of LR as well? I don't understand it to be now. But, given the example of adjusting repair allowance; does it make sense that a stationary fleet would risk less and have less chance of accident than a mobile one? The intent not to penalize further, but to allow for some optional period of stationary repair before the decision has to be made to mothball, etc.    

One somewhat off-topic and perhaps future aspect this post did make me think off is the application of system phenomena mechanics could be (in its simplest form perhaps) a modifier of fleet LR - causing already strained fleets to be privy to accidents for a temporary state while they navigate through difficult areas (Gravity wells, nebulae, and asteroid fields)

And I continued to be excited and impressed by Starsector's developments
Title: Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
Post by: Alex on May 26, 2013, 10:01:57 AM
hmm...

am I the only one who doesn't quite like the "accidents occur when at %0 for over a day" thing? It's kinda like the current system where you can sail safely just under a certain threshold, but the moment you go juuuust a little bit over it all hell breaks loose, maybe something of an exponential increase might be more helpful here

Yeah, your not alone. I'm not too sure about that as well, especially a day in the game is like a few seconds in real life. Maybe a week, then accidents can occur, i just feel that a day is a little too short. But, i cant tell for sure cos i, or anyone else that not alex havnt played the game with that implemented.

Accidents get worse as time goes on. I mean, at *some* point you have to go from 0 chance of accident to some chance of accident, right? Generally speaking, accidents from being at 0% LR shouldn't come into play much, as they'd be due a player mistake. The lower-severity accidents reflect that, by targeting excess capacity with the accident result, if possible.


There are just so many ways to make your fleet focus on what you think is most important now, it's much more flexible and organic. The one day accident buffer is just so you have time to notice and act, I believe.

Right, exactly.


Could/Should the system map mechanic of "moving" as opposed to "not moving"(or sitting there allowing time to pass) be a factor of LR as well? I don't understand it to be now. But, given the example of adjusting repair allowance; does it make sense that a stationary fleet would risk less and have less chance of accident than a mobile one? The intent not to penalize further, but to allow for some optional period of stationary repair before the decision has to be made to mothball, etc.    

Hmm. That's an interesting question. I'm leery of things that encourage you to sit still, because that could get boring. I could see low LR giving a minor speed penalty to the fleet, though.

One somewhat off-topic and perhaps future aspect this post did make me think off is the application of system phenomena mechanics could be (in its simplest form perhaps) a modifier of fleet LR - causing already strained fleets to be privy to accidents for a temporary state while they navigate through difficult areas (Gravity wells, nebulae, and asteroid fields)

That could work, but not with the way LR is implemented. It's a derived value based on other stats, so you can't really reduce it. On the other hand, there's no reason that accidents couldn't happen for other reasons, in fact, part of the idea behind CR was to enable less ham-fisted accidents. For example, you're going through a charged nebula, and a ship suffers a 25% CR loss due to some electronics failing. That kind of thing couldn't be adequately represented with damage or supply/fuel/etc loss.
Title: Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
Post by: Gothars on May 26, 2013, 01:15:27 PM
One somewhat off-topic and perhaps future aspect this post did make me think off is the application of system phenomena mechanics could be (in its simplest form perhaps) a modifier of fleet LR - causing already strained fleets to be privy to accidents for a temporary state while they navigate through difficult areas (Gravity wells, nebulae, and asteroid fields)

That could work, but not with the way LR is implemented. It's a derived value based on other stats, so you can't really reduce it. On the other hand, there's no reason that accidents couldn't happen for other reasons, in fact, part of the idea behind CR was to enable less ham-fisted accidents. For example, you're going through a charged nebula, and a ship suffers a 25% CR loss due to some electronics failing. That kind of thing couldn't be adequately represented with damage or supply/fuel/etc loss.

Mh...you could try a "environmental conditions" stat that goes up in dangerous areas and then consumes supplies, effectively reducing LR.
Actually, this could be implemented as continuous damage being dealt at a rate under the repair rate. That way you'd have a level of control (by suspending repairs if needed) and if you're out of supplies you'd have the built-in penalty of your ships being slowly damaged.

CR reducing accidents are fine as a deterring mechanic, but not necessarily harsh enough at all cimcumstances.
Title: Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
Post by: PCCL on May 26, 2013, 01:25:37 PM

Accidents get worse as time goes on. I mean, at *some* point you have to go from 0 chance of accident to some chance of accident, right? Generally speaking, accidents from being at 0% LR shouldn't come into play much, as they'd be due a player mistake. The lower-severity accidents reflect that, by targeting excess capacity with the accident result, if possible.


oh... I thought it's like before where if you stay under the %150 it's all fine and dandy, then you go to %151 and OMG EXTREME ACCIDENT CHANCE EVERYONE IS GONNA DIE!!!

nvm then
Title: Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
Post by: Gigalith on May 26, 2013, 02:16:54 PM
An all-green crew gives +50% to maximum CR. An all-elite crew gives +80%. Combat aptitude 10 gives another +20% (+2% per level). These are all subject to change at some point, but with these values, the only way to get 100% CR right now is an all-elite crew and a captain with 10 combat aptitude.

So, for a ship with green crew, it's CR would max out at 50%, at which point the reduced supply cost would kick in.

Does this mean that with LR 0%, all green crews and no Combat Aptitude, your entire fleet has CR 0% (and thus can't be deployed)? Ouch, if that's the case.. Better start mothballing ships at that point.

For that matter, if your maximum CR is, say, 2% from low crew/logistics, can you still get the max CR supply bonus? It seems a weird way to exploit the supply rules, though the low CR would bring its own set of problems...
Title: Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
Post by: Hari Seldon on May 26, 2013, 03:04:03 PM
Is "Mothball" going to replace the current "store at abandoned station"?
Title: Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
Post by: Alex on May 26, 2013, 04:27:47 PM
Does this mean that with LR 0%, all green crews and no Combat Aptitude, your entire fleet has CR 0% (and thus can't be deployed)? Ouch, if that's the case.. Better start mothballing ships at that point.

Yep. Don't go to 0% LR!

For that matter, if your maximum CR is, say, 2% from low crew/logistics, can you still get the max CR supply bonus? It seems a weird way to exploit the supply rules, though the low CR would bring its own set of problems...

Crew being understrength acts as a multiplier to the current and max CR, so it can't change whether or not a ship is at max CR.

In any event, it wouldn't be an "exploit" if it did, since the ship stops recovering CR. Which is the reason for the supply use drop.

Is "Mothball" going to replace the current "store at abandoned station"?

They're unrelated. Actually about to rename that option in the abandoned station as we speak :)
Title: Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
Post by: CrashToDesktop on May 27, 2013, 11:44:36 AM
Might I be crawling out from under the bed? :)

Thank the lord for the Maxium Crew Level!  God, that will save me (and the rest of us, I'm sure) time from moving all our cargo ships behind the combat ones. :D I can't say much about the LR stat now - seems a bit confusing to me.

My only gripe about the Mothballed ships is that they start at 0% CR instead of 10% once you recover them - it eliminates 90% of the CR needed to sustain it.  There HAS to be some maintainence during it's time as mothballed - hence why it shouldn't start at 0% CR - and why it should start at 10% CR.
Title: Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
Post by: frag971 on May 27, 2013, 02:19:43 PM
Very nice details. I can almost see how it ties in with future features. But i've got a couple questions.

So Logistics is a fleet stat while combat readiness is a ship stat?

Have you thought or considered having Supply as a sort of ammo?
Spoiler
Like, each ship with have Storage and Cargo (i know they sound ambiguous).
Storage is how much Supply a ship can carry and Cargo is how much it can carry of other stuff like ammunition, guns, soldiers, etc...
This way fighters would have neither storage nor supply, frigates would have a bit of both and as ships become bigger their Cargo would go up while Supply would stay relatively the same.
That would lead to support/resupply ships with huge amounts of Storage space for all that extra Supply we need and they would have drones that transport additional Supply or ammo between ships (in combat?).
[close]

Are there any plans to have out-of-battle events influence in-battle events?
Spoiler
For example i was chasing Fleet A and Fleet B was chasing me behind.
I engage Fleet A but during the fight Fleet B caught up and enters the fight as a third side and we all engage in a 1-vs-1-vs-1 free-for-all.
I suppose you could count the travel time faster than battle time, so the passage of time in the system would slow down considerably during a player battle, and thus almost instant battles between NPC fleets when the player is out of battle.
[close]

Any chance, down the line, to have astronomical events actually influence game events?
Spoiler
A red giant turning supernova destroying the whole system. The player has to escape the system, but when he comes back there's a huge amount of mining resources and a black hole in the middle
which will destroy you if you get close (but oh so fun to stride close to it when enemies are behind me. kessel run ftw).
Or a gamma-ray burst as a wide beam across the entire system that does constant damage as long as you remain in it.
Or even a rare, alien-made wormhole that spawns an instance where you can battle overpowered aliens and get cool weird weapons and modules.
[close]
Title: Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
Post by: bobusdoleus on May 28, 2013, 08:43:36 AM
Doesn't this new system cause priority to play 'double duty' for ship repairs and crew distribution, something that may be unfavorable?

Supposing I had an awesome dreadnought, a secondary combat ship, one or more ships I captured that I'd want to tow around but not ever use, maybe some fighters, and some sort of cargo hauler. Some or all of these ships are lightly damaged. I use a lot of my crew capacity for marines, in case I ever run into a cappable onslaught or something.

The awesome dreadnought got severely damaged, but I don't want to lose it in combat, so until such a time as it's repaired, I don't want to field it in combat at all. Therefore, I don't mind it being undercrewed, because I need my secondary ship fully crewed - but I /do/ want it receiving repairs, at maximum priority, because when it's fixed I'll be fielding it in battle.

Currently, if you want something repaired maximum-fast, you also have to designate it to be fully crewed, which may not be an option if you don't want to fly damaged ships into combat (because you have other ships). This is especially a problem if this damaged ship is vastly larger than the other ships in your fleet: Otherwise you'd be able to field a bunch of smaller ships, and maybe skeletal-crew this one, but as is, all your crew are sucked into the dreadnaught leaving you far fewer ships you can field in combat.


With this you could argue 'But Bob, you have a high crew capacity with this supposition! This shouldn't be a problem!' Okay, then I present this: You used a bunch of smaller ships to defeat and capture a large capital ship of awesomeness. You use most of your personnel capacity for marines, to ensure this can happen. You want to field this giant ship as soon as possible, because it's giant and awesome, but you need your other ships to be crewed in the meantime so you aren't flying this damaged husk into battle. You can't just let it sit at the back of the line for repairs, because your other ships were somewhat damaged too, and you really want to repair this big ship before getting to the rest of them - once you do, you won't need the smaller ships anymore. What do?
Title: Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
Post by: Alex on May 28, 2013, 09:16:54 AM
So Logistics is a fleet stat while combat readiness is a ship stat?

Yep.

Have you thought or considered having Supply as a sort of ammo?

"Cargo" vs "Storage" sounds too complicated; there are already more than enough various capacities and stats to keep track of. So, I don't see doing something like that just on that basis alone.

Are there any plans to have out-of-battle events influence in-battle events?
Spoiler
For example i was chasing Fleet A and Fleet B was chasing me behind.
I engage Fleet A but during the fight Fleet B caught up and enters the fight as a third side and we all engage in a 1-vs-1-vs-1 free-for-all.
I suppose you could count the travel time faster than battle time, so the passage of time in the system would slow down considerably during a player battle, and thus almost instant battles between NPC fleets when the player is out of battle.
[close]

Definite no on a free-for-all. (Travel time IS way faster than combat time, but at the same time, whether battles remain instant or not remains to be seen.)

Any chance, down the line, to have astronomical events actually influence game events?
Spoiler
A red giant turning supernova destroying the whole system. The player has to escape the system, but when he comes back there's a huge amount of mining resources and a black hole in the middle
which will destroy you if you get close (but oh so fun to stride close to it when enemies are behind me. kessel run ftw).
Or a gamma-ray burst as a wide beam across the entire system that does constant damage as long as you remain in it.
Or even a rare, alien-made wormhole that spawns an instance where you can battle overpowered aliens and get cool weird weapons and modules.
[close]

A definite maybe :)


Spoiler
Doesn't this new system cause priority to play 'double duty' for ship repairs and crew distribution, something that may be unfavorable?

Supposing I had an awesome dreadnought, a secondary combat ship, one or more ships I captured that I'd want to tow around but not ever use, maybe some fighters, and some sort of cargo hauler. Some or all of these ships are lightly damaged. I use a lot of my crew capacity for marines, in case I ever run into a cappable onslaught or something.

The awesome dreadnought got severely damaged, but I don't want to lose it in combat, so until such a time as it's repaired, I don't want to field it in combat at all. Therefore, I don't mind it being undercrewed, because I need my secondary ship fully crewed - but I /do/ want it receiving repairs, at maximum priority, because when it's fixed I'll be fielding it in battle.

Currently, if you want something repaired maximum-fast, you also have to designate it to be fully crewed, which may not be an option if you don't want to fly damaged ships into combat (because you have other ships). This is especially a problem if this damaged ship is vastly larger than the other ships in your fleet: Otherwise you'd be able to field a bunch of smaller ships, and maybe skeletal-crew this one, but as is, all your crew are sucked into the dreadnaught leaving you far fewer ships you can field in combat.


With this you could argue 'But Bob, you have a high crew capacity with this supposition! This shouldn't be a problem!' Okay, then I present this: You used a bunch of smaller ships to defeat and capture a large capital ship of awesomeness. You use most of your personnel capacity for marines, to ensure this can happen. You want to field this giant ship as soon as possible, because it's giant and awesome, but you need your other ships to be crewed in the meantime so you aren't flying this damaged husk into battle. You can't just let it sit at the back of the line for repairs, because your other ships were somewhat damaged too, and you really want to repair this big ship before getting to the rest of them - once you do, you won't need the smaller ships anymore. What do?
[close]

First off, hi and welcome to the forum :)

Now then: in the situation you describe, you could designate your small ships as having logistical priority, but then suspend repairs on all of them. (If this weren't possible, though, I wouldn't consider this a problem - you shouldn't always be able to get the best of both worlds, otherwise there are no interesting choices. And there's a perfectly plausble lore justification available for linking the two, as someone has to be actually making all these repairs.)
Title: Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
Post by: phyrex on May 28, 2013, 09:27:50 AM
wouldnt (technically speaking) you need all the manpower possible to repair such a large ship as fast as possible ?
hence the "fully crewed repair team" thing ?
Title: Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
Post by: PCCL on May 28, 2013, 09:42:48 AM
Quote
Doesn't this new system cause priority to play 'double duty' for ship repairs and crew distribution, something that may be unfavorable?

Supposing I had an awesome dreadnought, a secondary combat ship, one or more ships I captured that I'd want to tow around but not ever use, maybe some fighters, and some sort of cargo hauler. Some or all of these ships are lightly damaged. I use a lot of my crew capacity for marines, in case I ever run into a cappable onslaught or something.

The awesome dreadnought got severely damaged, but I don't want to lose it in combat, so until such a time as it's repaired, I don't want to field it in combat at all. Therefore, I don't mind it being undercrewed, because I need my secondary ship fully crewed - but I /do/ want it receiving repairs, at maximum priority, because when it's fixed I'll be fielding it in battle.

Currently, if you want something repaired maximum-fast, you also have to designate it to be fully crewed, which may not be an option if you don't want to fly damaged ships into combat (because you have other ships). This is especially a problem if this damaged ship is vastly larger than the other ships in your fleet: Otherwise you'd be able to field a bunch of smaller ships, and maybe skeletal-crew this one, but as is, all your crew are sucked into the dreadnaught leaving you far fewer ships you can field in combat.


With this you could argue 'But Bob, you have a high crew capacity with this supposition! This shouldn't be a problem!' Okay, then I present this: You used a bunch of smaller ships to defeat and capture a large capital ship of awesomeness. You use most of your personnel capacity for marines, to ensure this can happen. You want to field this giant ship as soon as possible, because it's giant and awesome, but you need your other ships to be crewed in the meantime so you aren't flying this damaged husk into battle. You can't just let it sit at the back of the line for repairs, because your other ships were somewhat damaged too, and you really want to repair this big ship before getting to the rest of them - once you do, you won't need the smaller ships anymore. What do?

well, I presume you would need the crew on board to do the actual repairs...

for non-deployment, just don't deploy or retreat at start

gameplay wise, I think it makes sense to have to sacrifice the manpower to keep a ship operational (as in, many things are happening on board) but not have it in combat

EDIT: welp, didn't see the whole 3rd page, guess my opinion is expressed already
Title: Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
Post by: Gothars on May 28, 2013, 11:11:47 AM
OK, let me in on the hole-poking :)

Say I have three ships: A combat ship, a support ship and a freighter. I have not enough crew for all of them. I want my combat ship to be at high CR, so I give it logistical priority. I would like to have my support ship combat capable too, don't care about the freighter's CR, though. Now my remaining crew gets evenly distributed between the two and they both end up not combat ready (<10% CR I think?). Is there anything I can do to get my support ship into the fight without diminishing my combat ship's CR?
Sorry for deliberately constructing messy scenarios :)


OK, some more serious and general feedback:
I really like the LR concept, but I'm not sure about the implementation of the "Fleet Member Controls" at all. Maybe I still just don't fully grok it. You said this is supposed to be streamlining, I can see that in LR. But what about crew distribution? Before you had one way of controlling that, now there are 3: Logistical priority, max crew level setting and position.

Spoiler
Quote from: Blogpost
Any ships flagged as a “logistical priority” receive first pick of supplies for repairs, and crew. Any leftover crew and supplies then go to the rest of the ships, which in the case of repairs often means nothing until the priority ships are done. Both supplies and crew are distributed evenly among the ships in each group.

Quote from: Blogpost
The maximum level of crew to use on a given ship can be set. If no low-level crew is available, higher level crew will then be used.

Ship position does matter for crew allocation in that the highest-level crew goes to the first ship to need it, with "logistics priority" ships getting first dibs, in the order they are listed. That's actually the only thing it matters for now.
[close]


Also, you now get a bunch of new flags and toggles. At the moment you just have 2 (flagship/repairs) and position, for the update I count 8 (flagship/repairs/mothball/logistic p./crew level 1-4) and position (although that is less important). Of course it's completely premature to judge the ease of use of those controls without even seeing a screenshot. From what I imagine it has to be much more cumbersome, though. Of course you can do many new things with this and exert finer control, but I'm not convinced it will be worth it.


(At the moment I'm trying to come up with a way to implement all the options in a purely position based UI, I really liked the concept of just dragging a ship to a specific position to determine its status. Of course this is also premature, but I can't help thinking about it.)
Title: Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
Post by: Alex on May 28, 2013, 11:45:56 AM
OK, let me in on the hole-poking :)

Say I have three ships: A combat ship, a support ship and a freighter. I have not enough crew for all of them. I want my combat ship to be at high CR, so I give it logistical priority. I would like to have my support ship combat capable too, don't care about the freighter's CR, though. Now my remaining crew gets evenly distributed between the two and they both end up not combat ready (<10% CR I think?). Is there anything I can do to get my support ship into the fight without diminishing my combat ship's CR?
Sorry for deliberately constructing messy scenarios :)

No, there isn't. If there were, civilian ships might as well not require any crew to run at all. It might make sense to add some kind of super-low-CR-based campaign-level penalty to non-mothballed ships, just to make the need for crew on non-combat ships more explicit.

Spoiler
OK, some more serious and general feedback:
I really like the LR concept, but I'm not sure about the implementation of the "Fleet Member Controls" at all. Maybe I still just don't fully grok it. You said this is supposed to be streamlining, I can see that in LR. But what about crew distribution? Before you had one way of controlling that, now there are 3: Logistical priority, max crew level setting and position.

Spoiler
Quote from: Blogpost
Any ships flagged as a “logistical priority” receive first pick of supplies for repairs, and crew. Any leftover crew and supplies then go to the rest of the ships, which in the case of repairs often means nothing until the priority ships are done. Both supplies and crew are distributed evenly among the ships in each group.

Quote from: Blogpost
The maximum level of crew to use on a given ship can be set. If no low-level crew is available, higher level crew will then be used.

Ship position does matter for crew allocation in that the highest-level crew goes to the first ship to need it, with "logistics priority" ships getting first dibs, in the order they are listed. That's actually the only thing it matters for now.
[close]


Also, you now get a bunch of new flags and toggles. At the moment you just have 2 (flagship/repairs) and position, for the update I count 8 (flagship/repairs/mothball/logistic p./crew level 1-4) and position (although that is less important). Of course it's completely premature to judge the ease of use of those controls without even seeing a screenshot. From what I imagine it has to be much more cumbersome, though.



(At the moment I'm trying to come up with a way to implement all the options in a purely position based UI, I really liked the concept of just dragging a ship to a specific position to determine its status. Of course this is also premature, but I can't help thinking about it.)
[close]

Right, but the crew level control is one I'd not expect to see much use; it probably won't receive prominent billing in the UI. So, really, we're talking two extra toggles: mothballing and logistical priority. Both of those (as well as the "repair expenditure" limit) come along with logistics, so there's some increase in complexity there. On the other hand, there's a decrease in complexity in other areas since a lot of things get rolled into logistics, as well as it being a more flexible system overall. I think the tradeoff is a worthwhile one, but only playtesting - and getting the release out - will really tell.
Title: Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
Post by: icepick37 on May 28, 2013, 12:54:02 PM
It sounds elegant. Takes a while to sink in, though that could just be me being slow. I figure this will FEEL right when I am actually playing with it, haha.

Though a learning curve is a not a bad things (as this game shows in combat at least.  :)
Title: Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
Post by: Ripper1776 on May 28, 2013, 05:06:47 PM
You currently have two settings for ships, Combat and Mothballed.  I would argue for three and for changing the mothballed name.  As I understand it, the mothballed ships are those that fly with the fleet, but you don't want to use them in combat or give them a lot of support, i.e. crew and supplies.  Instead, call that Reserve, the ships that aren't ready to come in, but can be brought up when needed.  Oh, and I'd think they would still need a minimal crew and supplies if they're running around with the fleet.  For the other two designations, Combat = high crew levels and supplies, Non-Combat = whatever they need to function.  Non-Combat would be the ships you keep around for their usefulness outside of combat, freighters and the like.  Also, mothballing really would be what you do when you park a ship back at base.

On Boarding.  If you want to make it harder, I can see that.   But don't make it too hard.  Capturing the occasional ship to add to the fleet or sell is nice.  Gives a little variety to endlessly popping small pirate or other groups and just picking up cash, supplies, and fuel.

Can't wait to try out the new stuff.  Great Game  ;).

Ripper 1776
Title: Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
Post by: bobusdoleus on May 28, 2013, 07:59:02 PM
Now then: in the situation you describe, you could designate your small ships as having logistical priority, but then suspend repairs on all of them. (If this weren't possible, though, I wouldn't consider this a problem - you shouldn't always be able to get the best of both worlds, otherwise there are no interesting choices. And there's a perfectly plausble lore justification available for linking the two, as someone has to be actually making all these repairs.)

Ah, fair point, it is fixable after all.

I'd just add that the lore justification  - having men on your ship to repair them - WOULD make sense, if not for the fact that, if you don't play with the priority settings and just leave the ship languishing in the back, it'll start getting repaired when its turn comes around, even though it isn't fully crewed. That makes a bit of a disconnect.

Thanks for answering the question, even if it was mostly my fault for not thinking about it enough rather than a good question! Oops.
Title: Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
Post by: Reapy on May 30, 2013, 02:16:21 PM
UI suggestion that I probably don't need to ask for but just wanted to check... is there a tool tip or window of some sort near the LR of the fleet that breaks down all the factors that pop into it?

Like I see say LR 5% in red, so I know I need to fix it. I mouse over it (or maybe is already shown) to see all the things contributing (which already I can't remember :) ) but like Marine supply use 25%, crew supply use, loss from CR, loss from repairs etc.

Ideally you just want to visit that number, see you need to take action, then at a glance see a summary of problem areas so you can decide you want to say eject some marines into space, mothball a ship or two and halt repairs so you can limp back to base with your phat loot.

It also will help players see all the factors that lead into the LR rating so they can better think on how to form their fleet.

Also color coding of red/yellow/green on number values help people know whether a number is "good" or not, like if I had not read the posts here, seeing a repaired ship at 50% CR with my green crew would make me think the ship needs a lot of work, but if it's colored green it at least hints to me that 50% is OK.

Maybe calling it "+50% CR" would work too, just something to throw my brain off 50% being "at half" and instead more along the lines of "50% more", if that makes sense.

Anyway, interesting updates as usual, I like the LR idea a lot and I can see how those factors again drag more supply ships into fleets, which I like a lot.
Title: Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
Post by: Alex on May 30, 2013, 07:37:24 PM
UI suggestion that I probably don't need to ask for but just wanted to check... is there a tool tip or window of some sort near the LR of the fleet that breaks down all the factors that pop into it?

Yeah, the logistics tooltip is actually one of the next things on my list :) There's already an extensive one for CR - it shows the current maximum, the various factors that contribute to it, the effect it has, the recent CR-affecting events, etc. (It's expandable with a hotkey, with the basic version being pared down depending on what screen it's shown in.) The LR one should be in the same vein in terms of detail.

Maybe calling it "+50% CR" would work too, just something to throw my brain off 50% being "at half" and instead more along the lines of "50% more", if that makes sense.

That's actually how it's stated in the tooltip: "Crew experience: +XX%".
Title: Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
Post by: Reapy on May 31, 2013, 06:42:36 AM
I always knew this man was a genius ;)
Title: Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
Post by: Alex on June 01, 2013, 09:27:18 AM
@frump: Actually, this isn't the place for it because it's off-topic. You're free to start another thread on the subject or send me an email if you prefer that route.

I'm going to clean this up; apologies to all whose posts were deleted.
Title: Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
Post by: Silver Silence on June 01, 2013, 01:35:29 PM
Wait, what was deleted?  ???
So confusing when mods delete posts, then refer to said removed posts. Leaves me thinking "What in blue blazes are you talking about?". Though perhaps worded a bit more....vibrantly...

MID-POST EDIT:
Wait, was it that guy's rant about how development was stale? One step at a time, I say. Can't rush good things.
Title: Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
Post by: icepick37 on June 04, 2013, 12:46:01 PM
The mods do this so people will know NOT to refer back to those posts. Seems like there's always one or two guys who post after anyway, though.

EDIT: Also it seems off-topic to comment like that/this.  :p
Title: Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
Post by: LazyWizard on June 04, 2013, 06:45:24 PM
UI suggestion that I probably don't need to ask for but just wanted to check... is there a tool tip or window of some sort near the LR of the fleet that breaks down all the factors that pop into it?

Yeah, the logistics tooltip is actually one of the next things on my list :) There's already an extensive one for CR - it shows the current maximum, the various factors that contribute to it, the effect it has, the recent CR-affecting events, etc. (It's expandable with a hotkey, with the basic version being pared down depending on what screen it's shown in.) The LR one should be in the same vein in terms of detail.

Maybe calling it "+50% CR" would work too, just something to throw my brain off 50% being "at half" and instead more along the lines of "50% more", if that makes sense.

That's actually how it's stated in the tooltip: "Crew experience: +XX%".

Will mods be able to add contributing factors to Logistics and CR and add their own entries to the tooltip?
Title: Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
Post by: Alex on June 04, 2013, 07:23:50 PM
Will mods be able to add contributing factors to Logistics and CR and add their own entries to the tooltip?

There's a new String parameter for the various MutableStat.modifyXXX() methods - a description that shows up in tooltips and such, if a stat is being dissected for contributing factors. The maximum logistics capability and the maximum CR are two such.

On the other hand, if you're modifying the effects CR has, that means providing an alternate, full implementation of the CombatReadinessPlugin - so only one mod at a time can do this. (The source for the core implementation is in the api zip.) The effects of logistics are less moddable, except when it comes to the effect on CR. There are a bunch of values in settings.json that govern just how much things cost etc, but most of the mechanics themselves are in core.
Title: Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
Post by: Mattk50 on July 05, 2013, 08:14:31 AM
Aha, the fleet points beast is slain. Great changes alex.