How much of the coding is already done?
But I have one real big query apart from the obvious one that will mean all modded ships would need a bit of reworking to get the same kind of dynamic, the big query is what this new stat would mean for fighters and any other systems used in combat that uses supplies, would this affect the Logistics value? e.g. having 3 flights of Talons resupply in combat would having that many fighters affect my Logistics value out of combat?
Does the CR reduction from overloaded logistics apply linearly? i.e. 50% LR gives -25% Max CR.
It seems to me that one could run a fleet for only a fraction of its cost if you had all ships with maximum CR. It'd shoot back up after the first battle. Might make sense for some kind of trading fleet sacrificing supply storage for more goods, hoping it never has to actually fight. Then again, depending on how hard it is to reach max CR this may or may not be actually viable.
How much does, say, the Hegemony SDF use in daily supplies? Will an Atlas need to keep the Onslaughts company?
How much does, say, the Hegemony SDF use in daily supplies? Will an Atlas need to keep the Onslaughts company?
I'm aiming for maybe a 1-2 month deployment for larger ships w/o freighters and such. Frigate and destroyers can spend less time on their own, while fighters obviously need support due to not having any cargo capacity.
Of course, that time greatly depends on the repairs that need doing, and whether the fleet sees a lot of action.
I'm aiming for maybe a 1-2 month deployment for larger ships w/o freighters and such. Frigate and destroyers can spend less time on their own, while fighters obviously need support due to not having any cargo capacity.
Of course, that time greatly depends on the repairs that need doing, and whether the fleet sees a lot of action.
Thank you for following up with a detailed explanation so swiftly Alex. It sounds all very intriguing. Can't wait to actually try it.
Still, questions:
If the maximum CR is reduced by a <100% LR value, where does the "reduced maintenance cost for ship with full CR" effect come into play? At absolute maximum CR or at the current, reduced maximum CR?
You said before that a 100%CR ship will be a rare sight and that about 50% CR ships will be the norm. That had me expecting that keeping a ship at ~50% would result in the lowest maintenance cost and keeping it at 100% would cost a lot of extra supplies and be only possible for a short time. Now it turns out that 100%CR has actually the lowest permanent costs. I could not really see anything that necessitates the condition described in your old statement, did I overlook something (Which is very possible due to large amounts of Haselnussschnaps. Yeah, we have words with 3 s now.) or did you change your approach?
The things that consume supplies are:
- Ship maintenance – ships have a new stats that indicates how many supplies per day they require for maintenance. More on that later.
- Combat readiness (“CR”) recovery
The daily supply expenditure on all of that is added up, and together with the logistics stat, is used to produce a logistics rating (“LR”), which is a percentage value.
...
The solution here is that recovering CR doesn’t actually cost any supplies. Rather, being at maximum CR reduces the ship maintenance cost dramatically, but the full value still counts against the logistics rating. So, CR changes have no impact on the logistics rating.
Very nice post. Although i do wonder, after reading about the supplies part, would fighters that dock and repair at a carrier consume, or when a ship fixes its guns and engines consume supplies and if so, would there be some sort of section in the post-combat report where it gives you some stats and supplies consumed for the in-combat repairs? Because that would add alot more depth in the game.
Will a lone battleship or carrier with fighters be able to handle "the great outdoors", as it were?
The ISS Black Star might not be quite so independent, then. The idea of a lone ship against the world has romance to it, if not necessarily logical sense. Perhaps there could a skill for reducing the costs of the piloted ship alone, to provide room for one-ship fleets.
Then again, the Max CR supply reduction might be enough on its own. There may be only one battle between resupplies, as I figure the standard mercenary life is as following:
1) Find mission.
2) Blow stuff up.
3) Return to base to repair, refit, and refuel, then back to 1).
This is, of course, if everything goes right. ;)
Still, questions:
If the maximum CR is reduced by a <100% LR value, where does the "reduced maintenance cost for ship with full CR" effect come into play? At absolute maximum CR or at the current, reduced maximum CR?
You said before that a 100%CR ship will be a rare sight and that about 50% CR ships will be the norm. That had me expecting that keeping a ship at ~50% would result in the lowest maintenance cost and keeping it at 100% would cost a lot of extra supplies and be only possible for a short time. Now it turns out that 100%CR has actually the lowest permanent costs.
... Haselnussschnaps. ...
EDIT: Oh, just noticed this-QuoteThe things that consume supplies are:
- Ship maintenance – ships have a new stats that indicates how many supplies per day they require for maintenance. More on that later.
- Combat readiness (“CR”) recovery
The daily supply expenditure on all of that is added up, and together with the logistics stat, is used to produce a logistics rating (“LR”), which is a percentage value.
...
The solution here is that recovering CR doesn’t actually cost any supplies. Rather, being at maximum CR reduces the ship maintenance cost dramatically, but the full value still counts against the logistics rating. So, CR changes have no impact on the logistics rating.
You may want to remove "Combat readiness (“CR”) recovery" from that list, since it's a bit confusing/contradictory and basically already covered by "ship maintenance".
hmm...
am I the only one who doesn't quite like the "accidents occur when at %0 for over a day" thing? It's kinda like the current system where you can sail safely just under a certain threshold, but the moment you go juuuust a little bit over it all hell breaks loose, maybe something of an exponential increase might be more helpful here
So, google tells me this is a real thing. Oooook!
hmm...
am I the only one who doesn't quite like the "accidents occur when at %0 for over a day" thing? It's kinda like the current system where you can sail safely just under a certain threshold, but the moment you go juuuust a little bit over it all hell breaks loose, maybe something of an exponential increase might be more helpful here
Yeah, your not alone. I'm not too sure about that as well, especially a day in the game is like a few seconds in real life. Maybe a week, then accidents can occur, i just feel that a day is a little too short. But, i cant tell for sure cos i, or anyone else that not alex havnt played the game with that implemented.
There are just so many ways to make your fleet focus on what you think is most important now, it's much more flexible and organic. The one day accident buffer is just so you have time to notice and act, I believe.
Could/Should the system map mechanic of "moving" as opposed to "not moving"(or sitting there allowing time to pass) be a factor of LR as well? I don't understand it to be now. But, given the example of adjusting repair allowance; does it make sense that a stationary fleet would risk less and have less chance of accident than a mobile one? The intent not to penalize further, but to allow for some optional period of stationary repair before the decision has to be made to mothball, etc.
One somewhat off-topic and perhaps future aspect this post did make me think off is the application of system phenomena mechanics could be (in its simplest form perhaps) a modifier of fleet LR - causing already strained fleets to be privy to accidents for a temporary state while they navigate through difficult areas (Gravity wells, nebulae, and asteroid fields)
One somewhat off-topic and perhaps future aspect this post did make me think off is the application of system phenomena mechanics could be (in its simplest form perhaps) a modifier of fleet LR - causing already strained fleets to be privy to accidents for a temporary state while they navigate through difficult areas (Gravity wells, nebulae, and asteroid fields)
That could work, but not with the way LR is implemented. It's a derived value based on other stats, so you can't really reduce it. On the other hand, there's no reason that accidents couldn't happen for other reasons, in fact, part of the idea behind CR was to enable less ham-fisted accidents. For example, you're going through a charged nebula, and a ship suffers a 25% CR loss due to some electronics failing. That kind of thing couldn't be adequately represented with damage or supply/fuel/etc loss.
Accidents get worse as time goes on. I mean, at *some* point you have to go from 0 chance of accident to some chance of accident, right? Generally speaking, accidents from being at 0% LR shouldn't come into play much, as they'd be due a player mistake. The lower-severity accidents reflect that, by targeting excess capacity with the accident result, if possible.
An all-green crew gives +50% to maximum CR. An all-elite crew gives +80%. Combat aptitude 10 gives another +20% (+2% per level). These are all subject to change at some point, but with these values, the only way to get 100% CR right now is an all-elite crew and a captain with 10 combat aptitude.
So, for a ship with green crew, it's CR would max out at 50%, at which point the reduced supply cost would kick in.
Does this mean that with LR 0%, all green crews and no Combat Aptitude, your entire fleet has CR 0% (and thus can't be deployed)? Ouch, if that's the case.. Better start mothballing ships at that point.
For that matter, if your maximum CR is, say, 2% from low crew/logistics, can you still get the max CR supply bonus? It seems a weird way to exploit the supply rules, though the low CR would bring its own set of problems...
Is "Mothball" going to replace the current "store at abandoned station"?
So Logistics is a fleet stat while combat readiness is a ship stat?
Have you thought or considered having Supply as a sort of ammo?
Are there any plans to have out-of-battle events influence in-battle events?SpoilerFor example i was chasing Fleet A and Fleet B was chasing me behind.
I engage Fleet A but during the fight Fleet B caught up and enters the fight as a third side and we all engage in a 1-vs-1-vs-1 free-for-all.
I suppose you could count the travel time faster than battle time, so the passage of time in the system would slow down considerably during a player battle, and thus almost instant battles between NPC fleets when the player is out of battle.[close]
Any chance, down the line, to have astronomical events actually influence game events?SpoilerA red giant turning supernova destroying the whole system. The player has to escape the system, but when he comes back there's a huge amount of mining resources and a black hole in the middle
which will destroy you if you get close (but oh so fun to stride close to it when enemies are behind me. kessel run ftw).
Or a gamma-ray burst as a wide beam across the entire system that does constant damage as long as you remain in it.
Or even a rare, alien-made wormhole that spawns an instance where you can battle overpowered aliens and get cool weird weapons and modules.[close]
SpoilerDoesn't this new system cause priority to play 'double duty' for ship repairs and crew distribution, something that may be unfavorable?
Supposing I had an awesome dreadnought, a secondary combat ship, one or more ships I captured that I'd want to tow around but not ever use, maybe some fighters, and some sort of cargo hauler. Some or all of these ships are lightly damaged. I use a lot of my crew capacity for marines, in case I ever run into a cappable onslaught or something.
The awesome dreadnought got severely damaged, but I don't want to lose it in combat, so until such a time as it's repaired, I don't want to field it in combat at all. Therefore, I don't mind it being undercrewed, because I need my secondary ship fully crewed - but I /do/ want it receiving repairs, at maximum priority, because when it's fixed I'll be fielding it in battle.
Currently, if you want something repaired maximum-fast, you also have to designate it to be fully crewed, which may not be an option if you don't want to fly damaged ships into combat (because you have other ships). This is especially a problem if this damaged ship is vastly larger than the other ships in your fleet: Otherwise you'd be able to field a bunch of smaller ships, and maybe skeletal-crew this one, but as is, all your crew are sucked into the dreadnaught leaving you far fewer ships you can field in combat.
With this you could argue 'But Bob, you have a high crew capacity with this supposition! This shouldn't be a problem!' Okay, then I present this: You used a bunch of smaller ships to defeat and capture a large capital ship of awesomeness. You use most of your personnel capacity for marines, to ensure this can happen. You want to field this giant ship as soon as possible, because it's giant and awesome, but you need your other ships to be crewed in the meantime so you aren't flying this damaged husk into battle. You can't just let it sit at the back of the line for repairs, because your other ships were somewhat damaged too, and you really want to repair this big ship before getting to the rest of them - once you do, you won't need the smaller ships anymore. What do?[close]
Doesn't this new system cause priority to play 'double duty' for ship repairs and crew distribution, something that may be unfavorable?
Supposing I had an awesome dreadnought, a secondary combat ship, one or more ships I captured that I'd want to tow around but not ever use, maybe some fighters, and some sort of cargo hauler. Some or all of these ships are lightly damaged. I use a lot of my crew capacity for marines, in case I ever run into a cappable onslaught or something.
The awesome dreadnought got severely damaged, but I don't want to lose it in combat, so until such a time as it's repaired, I don't want to field it in combat at all. Therefore, I don't mind it being undercrewed, because I need my secondary ship fully crewed - but I /do/ want it receiving repairs, at maximum priority, because when it's fixed I'll be fielding it in battle.
Currently, if you want something repaired maximum-fast, you also have to designate it to be fully crewed, which may not be an option if you don't want to fly damaged ships into combat (because you have other ships). This is especially a problem if this damaged ship is vastly larger than the other ships in your fleet: Otherwise you'd be able to field a bunch of smaller ships, and maybe skeletal-crew this one, but as is, all your crew are sucked into the dreadnaught leaving you far fewer ships you can field in combat.
With this you could argue 'But Bob, you have a high crew capacity with this supposition! This shouldn't be a problem!' Okay, then I present this: You used a bunch of smaller ships to defeat and capture a large capital ship of awesomeness. You use most of your personnel capacity for marines, to ensure this can happen. You want to field this giant ship as soon as possible, because it's giant and awesome, but you need your other ships to be crewed in the meantime so you aren't flying this damaged husk into battle. You can't just let it sit at the back of the line for repairs, because your other ships were somewhat damaged too, and you really want to repair this big ship before getting to the rest of them - once you do, you won't need the smaller ships anymore. What do?
Any ships flagged as a “logistical priority” receive first pick of supplies for repairs, and crew. Any leftover crew and supplies then go to the rest of the ships, which in the case of repairs often means nothing until the priority ships are done. Both supplies and crew are distributed evenly among the ships in each group.
The maximum level of crew to use on a given ship can be set. If no low-level crew is available, higher level crew will then be used.
Ship position does matter for crew allocation in that the highest-level crew goes to the first ship to need it, with "logistics priority" ships getting first dibs, in the order they are listed. That's actually the only thing it matters for now.
OK, let me in on the hole-poking :)
Say I have three ships: A combat ship, a support ship and a freighter. I have not enough crew for all of them. I want my combat ship to be at high CR, so I give it logistical priority. I would like to have my support ship combat capable too, don't care about the freighter's CR, though. Now my remaining crew gets evenly distributed between the two and they both end up not combat ready (<10% CR I think?). Is there anything I can do to get my support ship into the fight without diminishing my combat ship's CR?
Sorry for deliberately constructing messy scenarios :)
SpoilerOK, some more serious and general feedback:
I really like the LR concept, but I'm not sure about the implementation of the "Fleet Member Controls" at all. Maybe I still just don't fully grok it. You said this is supposed to be streamlining, I can see that in LR. But what about crew distribution? Before you had one way of controlling that, now there are 3: Logistical priority, max crew level setting and position.SpoilerQuote from: BlogpostAny ships flagged as a “logistical priority” receive first pick of supplies for repairs, and crew. Any leftover crew and supplies then go to the rest of the ships, which in the case of repairs often means nothing until the priority ships are done. Both supplies and crew are distributed evenly among the ships in each group.Quote from: BlogpostThe maximum level of crew to use on a given ship can be set. If no low-level crew is available, higher level crew will then be used.Ship position does matter for crew allocation in that the highest-level crew goes to the first ship to need it, with "logistics priority" ships getting first dibs, in the order they are listed. That's actually the only thing it matters for now.[close]
Also, you now get a bunch of new flags and toggles. At the moment you just have 2 (flagship/repairs) and position, for the update I count 8 (flagship/repairs/mothball/logistic p./crew level 1-4) and position (although that is less important). Of course it's completely premature to judge the ease of use of those controls without even seeing a screenshot. From what I imagine it has to be much more cumbersome, though.
(At the moment I'm trying to come up with a way to implement all the options in a purely position based UI, I really liked the concept of just dragging a ship to a specific position to determine its status. Of course this is also premature, but I can't help thinking about it.)[close]
Now then: in the situation you describe, you could designate your small ships as having logistical priority, but then suspend repairs on all of them. (If this weren't possible, though, I wouldn't consider this a problem - you shouldn't always be able to get the best of both worlds, otherwise there are no interesting choices. And there's a perfectly plausble lore justification available for linking the two, as someone has to be actually making all these repairs.)
UI suggestion that I probably don't need to ask for but just wanted to check... is there a tool tip or window of some sort near the LR of the fleet that breaks down all the factors that pop into it?
Maybe calling it "+50% CR" would work too, just something to throw my brain off 50% being "at half" and instead more along the lines of "50% more", if that makes sense.
UI suggestion that I probably don't need to ask for but just wanted to check... is there a tool tip or window of some sort near the LR of the fleet that breaks down all the factors that pop into it?
Yeah, the logistics tooltip is actually one of the next things on my list :) There's already an extensive one for CR - it shows the current maximum, the various factors that contribute to it, the effect it has, the recent CR-affecting events, etc. (It's expandable with a hotkey, with the basic version being pared down depending on what screen it's shown in.) The LR one should be in the same vein in terms of detail.Maybe calling it "+50% CR" would work too, just something to throw my brain off 50% being "at half" and instead more along the lines of "50% more", if that makes sense.
That's actually how it's stated in the tooltip: "Crew experience: +XX%".
Will mods be able to add contributing factors to Logistics and CR and add their own entries to the tooltip?