Fractal Softworks Forum

Starsector => General Discussion => Topic started by: Gothars on September 25, 2012, 08:31:37 AM

Title: Does anyone like to use EMP weapons (for their EMP damage's sake)?
Post by: Gothars on September 25, 2012, 08:31:37 AM

I really wonder, never found them to be useful in support, strike or assault role.  Except the Salamander, which can be great.  The other "primarily" EMP weapons are the Ion Cannon and the Tachyon Lance and I never use those or heard of anyone who's fond of them. Sure, there are still situtaions were they are nice to have, but those are too rare to justify the huge OP investment. Other weapons like the phase beam are good, but I feel that's not thanks to their EMP aspect.
 
So, what do you think?

Spoiler

I listed a few shortcomings. To address one or some of those might be a good way to buff EMP, so I added suggestions to some.

EMP:

- does not influence shields in any way
That makes EMP weapons particularly useless against 360° shielded ships. If their shields are down they dont have the flux to do much damage anyway, and you'd probably rather want to deal hull damage.

Suggestion:

Spoiler

how about a delay in shield reactions if it's hit with EMP? Turn speed and deactivation time could be servery hindered as long as it is under EMP fire, heavy EMP bombardment like from Ion cannons could make turning and deactivating impossible

[close]

- can only influence sprite area that’s facing it
That doesn't sound too bad, but considering EMP damage is the only kind of damage that is limited by this it's a major drawback. For example, a support ship that managed to flank an enemy cruiser and deliver EMP damage to it's side does little to help it's allies fighting the cruiser from the front. Salamanders don't have this problem.

Suggestion:

Spoiler

a ship-wide effect could make it a good choice to keep firing. If for example hard flux was induced with hull hits, or the flux dissipation rate were diminished. 

[close]

- damage can’t exceed a certain maximum
Once a system is out it is out and will be online again after a few seconds. Further EMP damage has no influence on this. For other damage type weapons it is always an option to keep firing and deal damage, even if it's not the optimal type.

Spoiler

For this the solution would be the same as for the area problem: a ship-wide effect.

[close]

- can not inflict permanent damage
System are disabled for a brief moment (~ 10 seconds for medium slots I think), so EMP damage generates at best a window of opportunity, not a permanent tactical advantage. I don't think that's a bad thing or should be changed, but it is certainly a important difference to other weapon types.



- Can not/hardly damage weapons near the sprite center
So theoretical a ship could be EMP immune because of its turret and engine placement. That's not so much of a problem because the vanilla sprites don't feature many center weapons. It could be bad for mods though.

Spoiler

I see no real solution for this one, but at least a ship-wide effect could reduce the theoretical immunity to a theoretical resistance.

[close]

[close]

Title: Re: Does anyone like to use EMP weapons (for their EMP damage's sake)?
Post by: Faiter119 on September 25, 2012, 11:00:11 AM

I use some Ion cannons, on my Odyssey i use 2 Ion cannons, as they prove to be quite a help alot of the time.

Title: Re: Does anyone like to use EMP weapons (for their EMP damage's sake)?
Post by: Thaago on September 25, 2012, 11:12:18 AM

I've never used the ion cannon, but I do use the Tachyon Lance. I also find the EMP on the HVD to be extremely useful and makes up for its abysmal dps.

It would be interesting if EMP acted randomly over all weapons/engines - at the moment you can easily reproduce the local effect with any of the larger weapons... Plasma cannons in particular might as well have EMP because they knock out absolutely everything around where they hit. But in that case salamanders, probably the best EMP weapon in terms of feel, would be radically different.

Title: Re: Does anyone like to use EMP weapons (for their EMP damage's sake)?
Post by: legion on September 25, 2012, 01:04:13 PM

I do use the Phasebeam on the Wolf just for taking out Hounds. The stock Gravbeam is rather useless agains them. The EMP damage on it might look low, but it is continuous, unlike the other EMP weapons.

Title: Re: Does anyone like to use EMP weapons (for their EMP damage's sake)?
Post by: icepick37 on September 25, 2012, 01:07:20 PM

I use ions for lulz. Especially against fighters.

Title: Re: Does anyone like to use EMP weapons (for their EMP damage's sake)?
Post by: Reshy on September 25, 2012, 02:06:33 PM

Ion cannons I only ever use to suppliment other stronger weapons that might lack the punch to disable weapons.  Such as kinetic weapons or pulse lasers. 


The main problem I see with EMP are the following: 

For it's effect it takes far far too much flux to power the weapons.  240 FPS for a small Ion Pulse Cannon.

Ion weapons generally lack regular damage to suppliment the EMP and allow a degree of shield piercing.

Ion weapons generally cost more OP than their mirror weapon.

Ion weapons are easily negated by one of the most common hull mods.

Ion weapons only come in two flavors, Small Pulse Laser and Long Ranged Wave Motion Gun.  There's no intermeditary weapons or variation.


This combination of aspects is what holds Ion weapons back.



The fixes I would suggest woudl be the following:

Decrease the amount of Ion damage blocked by the Resistant Flux Coils to 25%, Ion will still do above average but will be signifigantly reduced still to only 150% rather than 200%.  However to compensate for this the flux bonus for the mod becomes 15%.

Allow EMP damage to harm shields for 20% of the EMP value so that shield penetration is possible.  In addition all EMP damage is taken as hard flux regardless of it's source.

Add Intermeditary weapons for Ion weapons including a Beam, Blaster, and larger Pulse laser variants.  At the very least there needs to be a medium Ion weapon.

Increase the damage of Ion weapons slightly so that they're more in line with weapons of a similar size and cost but not entirely.

Title: Re: Does anyone like to use EMP weapons (for their EMP damage's sake)?
Post by: naufrago on September 25, 2012, 03:40:16 PM

I equip 2x tachyon lance on each of my two paragons. The lances are inefficient as hell with their damage, but they wreak utter havoc with a ships weapons and engines if they manage to hit armor/hull. The long range also allow the Paragon to start being useful sooner; since the Paragon is so slow, it takes forever to get into battle.

So, the primary reasons I use Tachyon Lances is their long range and EMP damage.

Title: Re: Does anyone like to use EMP weapons (for their EMP damage's sake)?
Post by: JaytheJuggernaut on September 25, 2012, 03:48:13 PM

I'll occasionally outfit a hyperion with ion-cannons. I typically pilot it, and it works well when I hang with them on the very fringes, and as soon as they turn or lower the shields I go to town on the weapons. I find that using fighter/Fast frigates to flank makes this work better. Off the top of my head, I can only remember the tri-tachyon lance, and as has been said: Don't ever fire it at anything bigger than a frigate. If I'm using a large energy, I want a little more power against shields. It's mostly just my personal playstyle. Other than on hyperion, I can't think of anywhere that they can pay for themselves, so to speak. Even then, the flux consumption makes it a little meh.

Title: Re: Does anyone like to use EMP weapons (for their EMP damage's sake)?
Post by: Thaago on September 25, 2012, 03:58:52 PM

Quote from: legion on September 25, 2012, 01:04:13 PM

I do use the Phasebeam on the Wolf just for taking out Hounds. The stock Gravbeam is rather useless agains them. The EMP damage on it might look low, but it is continuous, unlike the other EMP weapons.

For comparison's sake, does anyone know how the EMP is applied over time? The value given is EMP/second?

Title: Re: Does anyone like to use EMP weapons (for their EMP damage's sake)?
Post by: Gothars on September 25, 2012, 05:42:54 PM

Quote from: Thaago on September 25, 2012, 03:58:52 PM

Quote from: legion on September 25, 2012, 01:04:13 PM

I do use the Phasebeam on the Wolf just for taking out Hounds. The stock Gravbeam is rather useless agains them. The EMP damage on it might look low, but it is continuous, unlike the other EMP weapons.

For comparison's sake, does anyone know how the EMP is applied over time? The value given is EMP/second?

DPS:

Ion Cannon      400
Tach Lance       172.5
Myolnir             133.3
Hyperv. Driver  100
Phase Beam      20


But I assume that subsystem health regenerates over time, so burst damage like from the Tachyon Lance is better then it's dps let you think.

Title: Re: Does anyone like to use EMP weapons (for their EMP damage's sake)?
Post by: Thaago on September 25, 2012, 06:42:15 PM

What I was wondering about was not the values, but how the Phase Beam/Tach Lance (which are both beams) apply their EMP. Is it all front loaded on impact, then renewed each second? Is it continuously applied over the whole impact time, with a discretized rate of (rated EMP) * dt?

The case of all other weapons is simple: The rated EMP is a per shot, applied at impact (probably) quantity. What is it for beams?

Title: Re: Does anyone like to use EMP weapons (for their EMP damage's sake)?
Post by: Gothars on September 25, 2012, 07:05:24 PM

I don't know what you mean with "front loaded". Or "dt". Delta time? damage*time? Neither makes sense to me, time is quite irrelevant.
I would assume that a beam simply induces a certain amount of (EMP) damage per frame. Quasi like a 1 shot/frame (or 60 shots/second with perfect speed) machine gun.

Title: Re: Does anyone like to use EMP weapons (for their EMP damage's sake)?
Post by: VikingHaag on September 25, 2012, 07:53:56 PM

I always like to keep a spare EMP heavy ship in my fleet.
It won't kill things on its own, but by gods sake is it glorious to ruin an onslaughts day by disabling all his weapons and causing a flameout.

Title: Re: Does anyone like to use EMP weapons (for their EMP damage's sake)?
Post by: CrashToDesktop on September 25, 2012, 07:58:02 PM

the EMP is based on EMP per shot (if a shot weapon) or EMP per second (on a beam weapon).  EMP on a beam weapon works the same as damage is given, except in EMP.

Title: Re: Does anyone like to use EMP weapons (for their EMP damage's sake)?
Post by: RSS_Ornel on September 26, 2012, 05:14:22 AM

I absolutly love ion cannons. Ive run a medusa with 2 gravs and 8 ions and 2 AC and it annihilated an onslaught. thopugh truth be told they are only useful on fast ship so you can circle around and knock their engines out

Title: Re: Does anyone like to use EMP weapons (for their EMP damage's sake)?
Post by: ArthropodOfDoom on September 26, 2012, 06:45:33 PM

The main weaponry on my Conquest loadout all have some EMP damage.
Why, you ask? Well, because of weapon knockouts.
It may take some time to effectively pound through shields,
but once that happens, it's all over for whatever was sitting inside said shields.

Title: Re: Does anyone like to use EMP weapons (for their EMP damage's sake)?
Post by: LordHerpDerpington on September 27, 2012, 12:05:09 AM

I use whatever makes the biggest explosions, and has the biggest Dakka. I don't need fancy EM-whatever, I have explosions and Dakka!

Title: Re: Does anyone like to use EMP weapons (for their EMP damage's sake)?
Post by: Gothars on September 27, 2012, 05:45:57 AM

Added a poll to the thread. Regards to the Archduke :)

Title: Re: Does anyone like to use EMP weapons (for their EMP damage's sake)?
Post by: DJ Die on September 27, 2012, 09:46:47 AM

i use HVDs on my Ons but mainly because of their flux eff and for shield takedowns so i can spray the target with TPCs and railguns.....EMP is a nice bonus that makes enemy ship harmless sooner

Title: Re: Does anyone like to use EMP weapons (for their EMP damage's sake)?
Post by: GUNINANRUNIN on September 27, 2012, 10:05:21 AM

Quote from: LordHerpDerpington on September 27, 2012, 12:05:09 AM

I have explosions and Dakka!

Title: Re: Does anyone like to use EMP weapons (for their EMP damage's sake)?
Post by: Temjin on September 27, 2012, 09:10:44 PM

The Hypervelocity Driver is a great "damned if you do, damned if you don't" gun, in that it does relatively high per-shot damage to shields, but also carries a sizable EMP payload if they decide to "tank" the shot on armor. The low flux per second is a bonus.

The Ion Cannon is great on small support ships that can sneak to undefended/unshielded areas of larger ones and knock out engines, but it especially excels against unshielded fighters. Other than that, its flux inefficiency is hard to stomach.

The Tachyon Lance, even post-nerf, is devastating, especially if you can field two or three of them. The burst damage will still rip apart frigates and fighters at absurd range, and a quick sweep of the beam across an unshielded target will knock out pretty much everything it touches. Plus, using them for support fire is incredibly dangerous.

Title: Re: Does anyone like to use EMP weapons (for their EMP damage's sake)?
Post by: Thaago on September 28, 2012, 07:44:37 AM

Quote from: DJ Die on September 27, 2012, 09:46:47 AM

i use HVDs on my Ons but mainly because of their flux eff and for shield takedowns so i can spray the target with TPCs and railguns.....EMP is a nice bonus that makes enemy ship harmless sooner

Quote from: Temjin on September 27, 2012, 09:10:44 PM

The Hypervelocity Driver is a great "damned if you do, damned if you don't" gun, in that it does relatively high per-shot damage to shields, but also carries a sizable EMP payload if they decide to "tank" the shot on armor. The low flux per second is a bonus.

...

I like HVD's because of their great range and accuracy (lets me swat those pesky frigates!), but what they don't have is high damage or good efficiency: 137.5 dps, 175 fps. Of ballistic, kinetic, weaponry it has the worst bar none flux efficiency and the lowest damage except for the single light autocannon, at a high cost of 13 OP. I think they are the best example of a weapon with really bad stats being good in practice.

Title: Re: Does anyone like to use EMP weapons (for their EMP damage's sake)?
Post by: VikingHaag on September 28, 2012, 08:01:14 PM

Quote from: Temjin on September 27, 2012, 09:10:44 PM

Plus, using them for support fire is incredibly dangerous.

True that. I'm not using them anymore unless i get a fleet with only 360º shield ships.
It hurts like hell to see a paragon sniper 2 lashers at once and hit your tempest while training the lances away. Lost way too many ships to be thrusting them with the AI again (I mean the lances)

Title: Re: Does anyone like to use EMP weapons (for their EMP damage's sake)?
Post by: Temjin on September 29, 2012, 03:06:01 PM

Quote from: Thaago on September 28, 2012, 07:44:37 AM

Quote from: DJ Die on September 27, 2012, 09:46:47 AM

i use HVDs on my Ons but mainly because of their flux eff and for shield takedowns so i can spray the target with TPCs and railguns.....EMP is a nice bonus that makes enemy ship harmless sooner

Quote from: Temjin on September 27, 2012, 09:10:44 PM

The Hypervelocity Driver is a great "damned if you do, damned if you don't" gun, in that it does relatively high per-shot damage to shields, but also carries a sizable EMP payload if they decide to "tank" the shot on armor. The low flux per second is a bonus.

...

I like HVD's because of their great range and accuracy (lets me swat those pesky frigates!), but what they don't have is high damage or good efficiency: 137.5 dps, 175 fps. Of ballistic, kinetic, weaponry it has the worst bar none flux efficiency and the lowest damage except for the single light autocannon, at a high cost of 13 OP. I think they are the best example of a weapon with really bad stats being good in practice.

Note I said "low" flux. Much lower than the medium-sized Heavy Autocannons, and much more useful than the Arbalests. They're my primary source of damage on Enforcers, with two HVDs in the diagonals, a Mauler in front, and two flak on each side. Incredibly effective, and even more so in groups thanks to the range of the weapons.

Title: Re: Does anyone like to use EMP weapons (for their EMP damage's sake)?
Post by: DragonV2 on September 30, 2012, 09:52:42 AM

ive found the omen to be alot of fun to fly on one on one fights, sure they may drag on, but shutting down his entire ship followed buy a barrage of missiles is alot of fun