Fractal Softworks Forum

Starsector => Suggestions => Topic started by: SafariJohn on January 22, 2023, 03:59:06 PM

Title: Disabled Ship = Escape Pods, not Boom
Post by: SafariJohn on January 22, 2023, 03:59:06 PM
I suggest when a ship is disabled it spews out escape pods/shuttles instead of exploding.

Pods flying out from under a ship and fading down like missiles should be about as flashy as an explosion. If capitals are too big for that to suffice, disabling all the weapons (along with the engines per usual) should make up the difference.
Title: Re: Disabled Ship = Escape Pods, not Boom
Post by: Thaago on January 22, 2023, 04:28:03 PM
I think this alongside some minor explosions would really sell the idea that the ship finally bit it and the crew have had enough.

Bonus points if automated ships eject their AI core :D
Title: Re: Disabled Ship = Escape Pods, not Boom
Post by: Embolism on January 22, 2023, 06:22:47 PM
I'm reminded of SPAZ 1 where destroyed ships shoot out all their crew in pods at high velocity, which you can then either pick up or shoot to watch the exposed crewmen flail and die in the vacuum of space...

Also fighters should do this too, and maybe if the carrier has recovery shuttles it will also send out tiny pods to retrieve pilots...
Title: Re: Disabled Ship = Escape Pods, not Boom
Post by: Rusty Edge on January 22, 2023, 07:12:04 PM
Improved escape protocols could be a nice hullmod for Rugged construction ships.
Drastically reduces casualities for disabled ships, at the cost of reduced effective hull integrity (crew escaping before hull is completely compromised.)
Title: Re: Disabled Ship = Escape Pods, not Boom
Post by: Ontheheavens on January 22, 2023, 09:21:14 PM
I suggest when a ship is disabled it spews out escape pods/shuttles instead of exploding.

Pods flying out from under a ship and fading down like missiles should be about as flashy as an explosion. If capitals are too big for that to suffice, disabling all the weapons (along with the engines per usual) should make up the difference.

Absolutely loving this idea - reminds me of Highfleet escape pods, which really added to the atmosphere.
Title: Re: Disabled Ship = Escape Pods, not Boom
Post by: Schwartz on January 22, 2023, 09:52:23 PM
Yeah, would be cool. Also let enemy ship PD target escape pods. Doesn't have to change any statistics, but this could give a tiny temporary downside to the upside of having one less enemy ship against you.
Title: Re: Disabled Ship = Escape Pods, not Boom
Post by: gG_pilot on January 23, 2023, 05:49:23 AM
I suggest when a ship is disabled it spews out escape pods/shuttles instead of exploding.
+1
Yeah, would be cool. Also let enemy ship PD target escape pods.
  +1
Space combat is rough,  when automatic systems like PD are controlled by AI, then  no mercy  could be  expected. Most crew at space  ships  are repair-man or programmers. Idea that a weapon  is directly controlled by a human  is nonsense. Even a idea that each target  have to be  approved by   human is  too slow. Future wars dont need   fighters but technicians and managers.
Title: Re: Disabled Ship = Escape Pods, not Boom
Post by: Soda Savvy on January 23, 2023, 08:10:53 AM
Edgy.

Everyone would have very obvious 'This is an escape pod' beacons to avoid that very scenario. The PD can already track and distinguish between missiles, flares, fighters, friendlies of the same, and debris as it is.

And anyone dumb enough to spoof it would find a guarantee of death no matter the case.

Title: Re: Disabled Ship = Escape Pods, not Boom
Post by: gG_pilot on January 23, 2023, 08:42:29 AM
Edgy.

Everyone would have very obvious 'This is an escape pod' beacons to avoid that very scenario. The PD can already track and distinguish between missiles, flares, fighters, friendlies of the same, and debris as it is.

And anyone dumb enough to spoof it would find a guarantee of death no matter the case.
LOL When you fit any system who recognize enemy escape pod by id beacon, at this moment I start to produce escape pods  filled by explosives. When your ship get nice hole size of a ping-pong table, you  might  guarantee whatever you like. You have few minutes left of your life.

You can  only make it work for your own pods, even in this case it is a security threat. When your codes for pods get into opponent hand you are a dead man walking.
Title: Re: Disabled Ship = Escape Pods, not Boom
Post by: FooF on January 23, 2023, 08:57:51 AM
As a visual effect, this would add a cool “flavor” of space battles but then to have PD shoot them down? Nope.

2 objections to making escape pods targetable: one gameplay, the other perception. First, I don’t want to waste one iota of flux on non-enemy targets. I don’t want to waste one second of PD coverage on targets that can’t hurt me. If dead ships tie up my PD or cause me to waste flux, that’s an instant veto from me as a player.

Perception-wise, we all know crew are getting butchered by the thousands in these battles but shooting down defenseless escape pods is morally/ethically objectionable. Thus far, the battles in SS have been abstracted to the point of being bloodless. You don’t see crew being jettisoned or dismembered bodies all over. I would think that’s intentional. Yes, it’s just a game but I don’t particularly want to RP as a person who kills surrendered/defeated foes for the lulz.

If, however, a purely visual effect of dozens of escape pods occurred on disabled ships that had no gameplay impact, I think that would be pretty nice touch.
Title: Re: Disabled Ship = Escape Pods, not Boom
Post by: Ruddygreat on January 23, 2023, 08:58:19 AM
Edgy.

yeah, this lol.
Rusty edge had a neat idea (though it probably wouldn't be used by players, it does make sense) & it would make for some nice visual flair, but everyone else in this thread is being annoyingly edgy.
Title: Re: Disabled Ship = Escape Pods, not Boom
Post by: SafariJohn on January 23, 2023, 05:28:14 PM
Mechanical effects I would like to see:
- get some crew back from disabled ships after the battle ends
- ships that break apart can't be recovered (with sMods, etc. preventing break apart)
- chance of post-battle event that lets you recruit crew from enemy's life pods

Rusty Edge's idea is cool. Probably not worth using, but cool.

everyone else in this thread is being annoyingly edgy.

Only Schwartz and gG_pilot.
Title: Re: Disabled Ship = Escape Pods, not Boom
Post by: Schwartz on January 23, 2023, 07:49:21 PM
What's edgy about it? I'm looking at this purely from an interesting game mechanic standpoint.

I also don't think there's official "rules of engagement" in the StarSector universe? Hegemony may have a code regarding this, but when there's no watchful eyes, everybody could and does probably play dirty.
Title: Re: Disabled Ship = Escape Pods, not Boom
Post by: Ontheheavens on January 23, 2023, 11:28:41 PM
Mechanical effects I would like to see:
- get some crew back from disabled ships after the battle ends
- chance of post-battle event that lets you recruit crew from enemy's life pods

Seconding this.

- ships that break apart can't be recovered (with sMods, etc. preventing break apart)

Isn't that already the case with vanilla?

Quote
Improved escape protocols could be a nice hullmod for Rugged construction ships.
Drastically reduces casualities for disabled ships, at the cost of reduced effective hull integrity (crew escaping before hull is completely compromised.)
Rusty Edge's idea is cool. Probably not worth using, but cool.

Cool as it may be, I think it doesn't fits with Rugged Construction at all. Keep in mind that Rugged Construction is itself a hullmod which, apart from Low Tech, is also present on Derelict drones. These ships are old, simple and straightforward, with hardly any delicate machinery - "Improved Escape Protocols" (if to be implemented at all) is something that I believe to be a much better fit on High Tech.

Rusty edge had a neat idea (though it probably wouldn't be used by players, it does make sense) & it would make for some nice visual flair, but everyone else in this thread is being annoyingly edgy.

The real annoyance are the people who belittle others for their opinions and ideas.
Title: Re: Disabled Ship = Escape Pods, not Boom
Post by: Doctorhealsgood on January 24, 2023, 12:24:39 AM
I suggest when a ship is disabled it spews out escape pods/shuttles instead of exploding.
+1
Yeah, would be cool. Also let enemy ship PD target escape pods.
  +1
Space combat is rough,  when automatic systems like PD are controlled by AI, then  no mercy  could be  expected. Most crew at space  ships  are repair-man or programmers. Idea that a weapon  is directly controlled by a human  is nonsense. Even a idea that each target  have to be  approved by   human is  too slow. Future wars dont need   fighters but technicians and managers.
Lorewise there is technological augmentations for gunners (it is also a skill) so needless to say chances are human ran weapons still exist
Title: Re: Disabled Ship = Escape Pods, not Boom
Post by: Jackundor on January 24, 2023, 12:31:12 AM
I suggest when a ship is disabled it spews out escape pods/shuttles instead of exploding.
+1
Yeah, would be cool. Also let enemy ship PD target escape pods.
  +1
Space combat is rough,  when automatic systems like PD are controlled by AI, then  no mercy  could be  expected. Most crew at space  ships  are repair-man or programmers. Idea that a weapon  is directly controlled by a human  is nonsense. Even a idea that each target  have to be  approved by   human is  too slow. Future wars dont need   fighters but technicians and managers.
by that logic why do fighters need pilots and ships such big crew complements?
Title: Re: Disabled Ship = Escape Pods, not Boom
Post by: SafariJohn on January 24, 2023, 03:00:40 AM
- ships that break apart can't be recovered (with sMods, etc. preventing break apart)

Isn't that already the case with vanilla?

Just tested, made sure to break apart both enemies, both were (SP) recoverable.
Title: Re: Disabled Ship = Escape Pods, not Boom
Post by: Rusty Edge on January 24, 2023, 03:41:29 AM
Quote
Cool as it may be, I think it doesn't fits with Rugged Construction at all.

 Quick clarification, I mean that it would compliment Rugged construction well, NOT that it should come built in to any ships by default.

 Also, I respectfully disagree with your conclusion. Escape pods are already present in all ships by default. Regardless of technology level. And protecting your crew may have even been more of a priority during some age long past, at a time when human life had a higher value.
 The primary thing that would change is the crew's proceedure once the hull is close to being compromised. At a certain hull integrity, the crews leave their posts and head to the nearest pod.

 Narrative wise, the hullmod might add some extra escape pods to the cargo bays (captains frequently install entire fighter autoforges and launch bays in these areas already, so some modified cargo containers with limited life support and beacons shouldn't be a challenge.)
 
 At this point in development,  all it would do is reduce crew casualties, and possibly increase the odds of the ship being recoverable with no D-mods. (Enemy may or may not waste time firing on an abandoned ship, I know pirates and scavengers would try to take it intact.
 But future updates may include some system for morale, or ship crew experience, or your character's public image as a
hero or a ruthless mercenary.

 Anyhow, I would like to see an addition like this, and I'm sure there are a few other players who would.
Title: Re: Disabled Ship = Escape Pods, not Boom
Post by: Bulletkin on January 24, 2023, 08:54:36 AM
I'm personally against certain ships sort of planning for failure when they're disabled. Taking down an enemy and getting a big cloud of point-defense chaff for your trouble doesn't sound too fun. However, I definitely support the concept for a little visual flair. It's great.
Title: Re: Disabled Ship = Escape Pods, not Boom
Post by: ForestFighters on January 24, 2023, 10:08:26 AM
The value of human life, ignoring the player's view, pathers, and pirates, is at an all-time high in the sector.
The sector's population is very low, under a billion, and certainly not growing particularly fast with all that is going on.

Mindlessly gunning down escape pods for no reason other than "war crime funny" is stupid. It is a waste of time, ammo, and focus on a battlefield.
False flagging missiles and fighters as escape pods is just going to mean your pods will be indiscriminately targeted. It is a simple thing, don't do it and your pods are safe against normal opponents. It is just the same as false identifying medics IRL.

The only factions that are going to be intentionally targeting escape pods are the pathers and tri-tachyon's phase fleets.
Even pirates understand the value of a good ransom.
Title: Re: Disabled Ship = Escape Pods, not Boom
Post by: gG_pilot on January 24, 2023, 12:03:14 PM
by that logic why do fighters need pilots and ships such big crew complements?
  Good  question. Large crew volume in ships is most probably a mistake. Overlook. fix is easy, slash numbers by 3 and rise salary by 3.
 Pilots  in Fighters are a sort of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battlestar_Galactica or SarWars  meme. e.i.  popular sci-fi born in 70" when author  could imagine  a  humanoid walking and talking robot, but  can not imagine that robot  is also better at piloting  and shooting. I think,  only low performance fighters  can afford humans inside. High  performance fighter can do manoeuvres  which  human body can not  survive.  Even Formula 1 racing very quickly find  out ( back in 80'')that pilots  fade out due to  high G. Therefore  they have forbid certain technical constructions which allowed such moves.

When  you design  perfect space fighter it would look  like a ball with 3-5 engines evenly spread on the surface. This  will grant  best manoeuvrability and best thermal efficient shape. Well, popular [redacted]  doritos  looks   like prefect space fighters,  assuming those spikes are engines.  ;)

Humans in space ship are expensive. Not  because of "human value" (whatever it means) but because of life  support equipment.  People are  squishy and need lot of cubic meters empty space.

Disabled  but compact  ships  on battlefield bring a new challenge for game AI. How to avoid it. Current AI just  ignore  debris and waste  rockets or fux to shoot on them. I guess, that main problem for Mr. Alex is, how to adapt AI to avoid  disabled ships floating acroos battle.
Title: Re: Disabled Ship = Escape Pods, not Boom
Post by: Amazigh on January 24, 2023, 12:36:31 PM
Personally, i think just as a visual effect, it would be neat.
Just some non-interactable pods that get fired out of the ship, and linger on the battlefield for a while before fading out. No need to have them collidable/targetable, that wouldn't really fit the theming of the game, if you read the writing/interactions in the game the player is not depicted some bloodthirsty maniac after all.

Quantity of pod could vary based on the ships crew count, and how many crew would survive the ships loss, could even have it so the ship always fires its maximum number of escape pods, (explained away as them automatically launching as the ship explodes) but only the ones that'd have surviving crew have a little flashing light / light up window on them, might be a neat little detail.

Could even have different pod graphics depending on the hullstyle of the ship, to add some extra visual flair to them.


The only thing that could be deemed a problem with this, is it'd add "clutter" to the battlefield, and having lots of little pods scattered around could make it harder to "read" what is going on in combat.
Title: Re: Disabled Ship = Escape Pods, not Boom
Post by: Rusty Edge on January 24, 2023, 12:59:28 PM
Quote
Disabled  but compact  ships  on battlefield bring a new challenge for game AI. How to avoid it. Current AI just  ignore  debris and waste  rockets or fux to shoot on them. I guess, that main problem for Mr. Alex is, how to adapt AI to avoid  disabled ships floating acroos battle.

 Mechanically, abandoned ships could just be "disabled" like any other disabled ship in the base game. And the hullmod may increase the same variables as Reinforced bulkheads or Rugged construction.
 Alternatively, the abandoned ship could get the "mothballed" state at 5% to 10% hull. I think Ai still shoots down mothballed ships, but this wouldn't really matter.
Title: Re: Disabled Ship = Escape Pods, not Boom
Post by: gG_pilot on January 24, 2023, 07:49:14 PM
The only factions that are going to be intentionally targeting escape pods are the pathers and tri-tachyon's phase fleets.
Even pirates understand the value of a good ransom.
Did you ever asked, where are "Harvested Organs" came from ?
https://starsector.fandom.com/wiki/Harvested_Organs
Title: Re: Disabled Ship = Escape Pods, not Boom
Post by: Doctorhealsgood on January 24, 2023, 08:39:34 PM
I see zero reason for this to be anything but purely aesthetical as it adds  nothing to the table if you ask me.
Title: Re: Disabled Ship = Escape Pods, not Boom
Post by: Jackundor on January 24, 2023, 10:11:17 PM
by that logic why do fighters need pilots and ships such big crew complements?
  Good  question. Large crew volume in ships is most probably a mistake. Overlook. fix is easy, slash numbers by 3 and rise salary by 3.
bruh.
just no.
Title: Re: Disabled Ship = Escape Pods, not Boom
Post by: Ontheheavens on January 24, 2023, 10:23:38 PM
Good  question. Large crew volume in ships is most probably a mistake. Overlook. fix is easy, slash numbers by 3 and rise salary by 3.

This sounds absolutely ridiculous. What are the chances Alex and David were blatantly shortsighted to such a degree so as to not think about basic assumptions of their setting?

What you think to be a mistake is a conscious design decision based on their general idea of Starsector as something like "WW2 naval warfare in space" (read their blog). That's also why there are Heavy Machine Guns and Flak Cannons on the spaceships.

When  you design  perfect space fighter it would look  like a ball with 3-5 engines evenly spread on the surface. This  will grant  best manoeuvrability and best thermal efficient shape. Well, popular [redacted]  doritos  looks   like prefect space fighters,  assuming those spikes are engines.  ;)

Humans in space ship are expensive. Not  because of "human value" (whatever it means) but because of life  support equipment.  People are  squishy and need lot of cubic meters empty space.

This is not a Children of a Dead Earth.
Title: Re: Disabled Ship = Escape Pods, not Boom
Post by: Jackundor on January 25, 2023, 05:07:17 AM
Disabled  but compact  ships  on battlefield bring a new challenge for game AI. How to avoid it. Current AI just  ignore  debris and waste  rockets or fux to shoot on them. I guess, that main problem for Mr. Alex is, how to adapt AI to avoid  disabled ships floating acroos battle.
disabled but intact ships are in the game rn.............. also yes, AI doesn't shoot at them because why wouldn't it?
Title: Re: Disabled Ship = Escape Pods, not Boom
Post by: Jackundor on January 25, 2023, 05:09:13 AM
Disabled  but compact  ships  on battlefield bring a new challenge for game AI. How to avoid it. Current AI just  ignore  debris and waste  rockets or fux to shoot on them. I guess, that main problem for Mr. Alex is, how to adapt AI to avoid  disabled ships floating acroos battle.
also, disabled but intact ships are in the game rn... and yes, AI doesn't shoot at them because why would it?
oops, i wanted to revise the wording of my other post a bit but quoted it accidentally
Title: Re: Disabled Ship = Escape Pods, not Boom
Post by: ForestFighters on January 25, 2023, 02:32:03 PM
Yeah, lets keep in mind the basic assumptions of Starsector's setting.
Otherwise you get to the question of "why isn't every weapon a nuke in some way?"

As for my take on the central topic, escape pods should be an almost entirely visual effect, and maybe some post-battle events could pop up every once and a while.
They are non-combatants with no way of escaping. Unlike a logi ship that might be able to flee, they are entirely dependent on the outcome of the battle.
Adding them as targetable, in-battle effects would cause some AI-related shenaniganry and would also begin to do the awkward thing of there inevitably being a war crime metagame.
That is stupid and is just going to attract a bad sort of crowd, while doing little else.
Title: Re: Disabled Ship = Escape Pods, not Boom
Post by: Doctorhealsgood on January 25, 2023, 06:53:28 PM
bad sort of crowd?
Title: Re: Disabled Ship = Escape Pods, not Boom
Post by: ForestFighters on January 26, 2023, 11:05:49 AM
bad sort of crowd?
Hoi4 players
Title: Re: Disabled Ship = Escape Pods, not Boom
Post by: Bulletkin on January 26, 2023, 01:46:47 PM
bad sort of crowd?
Hoi4 players
I shudder at the very thought...