Fractal Softworks Forum
Other => Discussions => Topic started by: Cubano on December 21, 2022, 09:00:42 PM
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Just sayin...
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DF went on Steam when it was ready. Starsector will not go on Steam until it is ready.
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DF was in development for 16 years before its release, so if anything its success vindicates the current development model.
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There's been a lot of people saying 'Well.. Steam won't generate any more of a player-base than it already has'
I personally think that is grossly wrong, Steam will generate not just plenty of revenue for Alex, but also fresh enthusiasm and a whole extra community of players and content creators.
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There's been a lot of people saying 'Well.. Steam won't generate any more of a player-base than it already has'
I have seen nobody say that. A big problem is it will result in many new players and the new player experience is still lacking in some areas.
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There's been a lot of people saying 'Well.. Steam won't generate any more of a player-base than it already has'
I have seen nobody say that. A big problem is it will result in many new players and the new player experience is still lacking in some areas.
DF is not exactly a player friendly game. Even with the new graphics, it is way more opaque than Starsector. I mean, we're playing already so it doesn't affect us but IMO it would be very well received and provide the dev team the compensation I think they deserve.
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There's been a lot of people saying 'Well.. Steam won't generate any more of a player-base than it already has'
I have seen nobody say that. A big problem is it will result in many new players and the new player experience is still lacking in some areas.
Not gonna "subtweet", but I think something I said in another thread about Starsector being on Steam is one of the posts they were referring to, in which I said "I disagree with the idea of this game's launch on Steam being its big time in the limelight. IMO, this game has simply been in development for too long, had way too much attention put towards it, and had way too much polish put in it for the majority of people that would play this game to think of it as an exciting new release." and "Releasing this game on Steam would just be a nicety at this point."
I honestly don't think the game being difficult to get into will be much of a deterrent, there are games that are muuuch more difficult to get into than Starsector that have found success on Steam, I think the bigger problem is just that this game isn't done yet; if we're to wait for it to be done, then... well, here we are, and if the game were to release on Early Access, then it would be in an environment where a) people are distrustful after being screwed over by developers abandoning games and b) people will think the game is dead if it doesn't get an update every 6 months.
Also, to the OP directly, I personally don't believe that Dwarf Fortress and Starsector are comparable; as someone else pointed out, Dwarf Fortress has been in development for much longer, was released on Steam for a certain reason regarding the healthcare issues of one of the developers, and had a complete graphical and UX overhaul following its Steam release. Part of the appeal of buying the Steam version is, more or less, that you're actually getting a playable game with graphics, and a lot of the reviews indicate that people already knew the game existed, but are only picking the game up because the game is now easier to get into than ever before. Starsector doesn't have a graphics and gameplay accessibility problem in the same way that Dwarf Fortress did, and as a result, its release on Steam wouldn't really be the same thing as Dwarf Fortress's.
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Now that we're relatively close to release, it would be silly IMO to release Starsector on Steam prematurely. You're (still) looking at lengthy wait times between major versions, which is bound to *** people off. Yes, it's very polished but is an early release worth the downvotes of all the people who don't know this game's developmental mindset?
Yes, it should absolutely be on Steam, but doing it prematurely is likely a move that burns some potential unnecessarily.
Virtually everybody knows what Dwarf Fortress is about. Its prohibitive UI and general depth are legendary stuff of memes and there are no misunderstandings what you're getting into. Starsector is an underdog. It has not made it into the collective gamer mind in the same way. Although people who are seriously into PC gaming, such as a lot of streamers, know about it.
It's one of those "quick cash now" vs "more cash later" situations. Where it's not just cash but about customer feedback & satisfaction also.
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Dwarf Fortress was already quite well-known before its Steam release.
I don't really get why people can't just accept that Starsector will be on Steam when Alex feels it's ready. He's made the decision that he feels this is the best way, and I don't think any amount of nudging and *hint hint*s will change that. Nor should they.
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Dwarf Fortress was already quite well-known before its Steam release.
I don't really get why people can't just accept that Starsector will be on Steam when Alex feels it's ready. He's made the decision that he feels this is the best way, and I don't think any amount of nudging and *hint hint*s will change that. Nor should they.
WAs reading reddit, when someone posted something to the effect of "There is no good games made in java". Starsector was the 3rd top voted example just below runescape.
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That guy can't have been very much into the indie gaming scene. There's lots.
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Dwarf Fortress was already quite well-known before its Steam release.
I don't really get why people can't just accept that Starsector will be on Steam when Alex feels it's ready. He's made the decision that he feels this is the best way, and I don't think any amount of nudging and *hint hint*s will change that. Nor should they.
WAs reading reddit, when someone posted something to the effect of "There is no good games made in java". Starsector was the 3rd top voted example just below runescape.
Wasn't minecraft also made in java? Anyone making such a claim doesn't know what games were made in java, I guess. Which means they don't know what they're talking about.
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Starsector, Minecraft, Project Zomboid, Rise to Ruins, Slay the Spire, Space Haven... and that's just what I have installed. ;)
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Considering the reasons behind Dwarf Fortress being sold on Steam (to help fund health-related expenses), I'm glad it's doing well.
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DF was in development for 16 years before its release, so if anything its success vindicates the current development model.
And starsector was in development for 11 years lol
I have no idea what the f is wrong with people on this forum and their assumptions that steam which features all levels of vaporware, is unfit for starsector which is in a pre-release state.
Not alpha, not tech demo, not beta, not your grandmother's teeth, but version 0.95
It doesnt need to be on steam, the developer is free to lose any amount of money they wish to, but these dipsh*t posts on the forum make me see red.
Not one of you clowns can justify coherently why starsector cant go on steam, but you defend your clown ass f-ing incoherent, fully *** and detached bs opinion like you actually could reason it. Yet you cant.
I can list you a hundred games that are in varying stages of alpha and beta. Some with hundred thousands of supporters despite delivering 1-2 content patches a year like valheim, and some which have been abandoned for years now, but still are being sold.
Yet your clown ass firmly plants your own foot in your mouth and go like "it ain redy deddy cuz eh sed so".
I cant.
I just cant.
Fckin irrational clowns.
At least have the common courtesy, decency and common sense to stick to factual reality, would you?
Alex doesnt want to and thats it.
Alex has his own reasons, its his product, his choice, his whatever. Every decision lies with him. Acceptable. Fine.
Yet you are here, making up *** on his behalf, talking absolute horse shait all over the place, making zero sense and antagonize people who offer a perfectly valid point.
Do you think starsector is a kpop band or some sh*t where you can spasm out in a literal 0 iq fanboy religious fervor?
Is this your religion or some shait? Is that why you cant present as much as two fcking coherent thoughts which are connected to eachother?
I wish i could at least remotely comprehend what drives chat bot intellect level bots like you people.
But i cant.
And it pisses me off.
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Damn, I've never seen someone so hurt because a game isn't available on Steam.
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DF was in development for 16 years before its release, so if anything its success vindicates the current development model.
And starsector was in development for 11 years lol
I have no idea what the f is wrong with people on this forum and their assumptions that steam which features all levels of vaporware, is unfit for starsector which is in a pre-release state.
Not alpha, not tech demo, not beta, not your grandmother's teeth, but version 0.95
It doesnt need to be on steam, the developer is free to lose any amount of money they wish to, but these dipsh*t posts on the forum make me see red.
Not one of you clowns can justify coherently why starsector cant go on steam, but you defend your clown ass f-ing incoherent, fully *** and detached bs opinion like you actually could reason it. Yet you cant.
I can list you a hundred games that are in varying stages of alpha and beta. Some with hundred thousands of supporters despite delivering 1-2 content patches a year like valheim, and some which have been abandoned for years now, but still are being sold.
Yet your clown ass firmly plants your own foot in your mouth and go like "it ain redy deddy cuz eh sed so".
I cant.
I just cant.
Fckin irrational clowns.
At least have the common courtesy, decency and common sense to stick to factual reality, would you?
Alex doesnt want to and thats it.
Alex has his own reasons, its his product, his choice, his whatever. Every decision lies with him. Acceptable. Fine.
Yet you are here, making up *** on his behalf, talking absolute horse shait all over the place, making zero sense and antagonize people who offer a perfectly valid point.
Do you think starsector is a kpop band or some sh*t where you can spasm out in a literal 0 iq fanboy religious fervor?
Is this your religion or some shait? Is that why you cant present as much as two fcking coherent thoughts which are connected to eachother?
I wish i could at least remotely comprehend what drives chat bot intellect level bots like you people.
But i cant.
And it pisses me off.
This is not acceptable behavior on this forum. Please familiarize yourself with the forum rules, especially the part about treating other members with respect:
https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=2668.0
And please consider this an official warning.
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DF is at a much more completed state. The play hours to see "everything" is around 2k hours played, cuz the interactions in the game go deep and players can find more cool things to do way after. Conversely, DF is also near a dead end in development, only thing would be animations, better isometric, readability on happenings, all of which is baisically near impossible at this point.
While starsector has a well developed combat and... That's it. All the other aspects could be improved so much more that honestly, unless some real life events force it, doesn't make sense to release it. A player realistically can pkay about 12 hours before exhausting most of the stuff to do.
You only get to release a game once. Release it now, get 1/10 of the people when you release at 20 years. Anything artistically creative reap more benifits the "deeper" it goes untill a certain completion point. Starsector is faaaaaarrrrr from that point.
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Just sayin...
who cares ?
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DF is at a much more completed state. The play hours to see "everything" is around 2k hours played, cuz the interactions in the game go deep and players can find more cool things to do way after. Conversely, DF is also near a dead end in development, only thing would be animations, better isometric, readability on happenings, all of which is baisically near impossible at this point.
While starsector has a well developed combat and... That's it. All the other aspects could be improved so much more that honestly, unless some real life events force it, doesn't make sense to release it. A player realistically can pkay about 12 hours before exhausting most of the stuff to do.
You only get to release a game once. Release it now, get 1/10 of the people when you release at 20 years. Anything artistically creative reap more benifits the "deeper" it goes untill a certain completion point. Starsector is faaaaaarrrrr from that point.
If you're talking about Steam release of DF, then I'd have to disagree. On release that game had game-breaking bugs and a lot of hiccups that made players experienced with the old version upset. Also there is still no adventure mode, which is a big part of the game.
Starsector has enough "developed" stuff for what it is worth. Certainly there are things to add here and there, but I've sunk many hours into my first playthrough not because I am fan of the genre or for some other invalid reason. Who knew exploring space could be so fun and engaging. Also, even the 12 hours you mention is way more than what I spend on most AAA titles this days.
The only thing I feel the game is lacking is probably a smoother transition from tutorial to the open world, but that's only IMO.
As for the steam release. I would love to see this game get the attention and support level it deserves, but I am not sure if Steam release would help in that matter.
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Generally, i really don't understand the attitude of "the game isn't finished". Yes, Alex doesn't consider it finished, but realistically you can consider it finished as a 1.0 since years with everything after being just expansions
While starsector has a well developed combat and... That's it. All the other aspects could be improved so much more that honestly, unless some real life events force it, doesn't make sense to release it. A player realistically can pkay about 12 hours before exhausting most of the stuff to do.
.... the hell? i've put way more hours into this game... this is only true if you think doing everything in the game once iis the entirety of what you can in this game
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I waited until DF hit Steam to buy it. I'm doing the same with Starsector.
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As opposed to buying DF directly from Toady, you mean? ;D
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for the record I think alex is 100% correct to wait to upload this to steam. subnautica is a great game & i never got to experience its finished experience bc i played it in its alpha state to saturation, such that when it reached its 1.0 it had effectively been ruined by my having already consumed it. like eating the raw pasta out of the pot until you're full before the chef has finished making the spaghetti sauce & then getting huffy when he insists on the children staying out of the children
(of course SS is an exception, its beta state (doing simulator & missions for hundreds of hours) happened to be the game i wanted to play & all the rest is cherry on top but the majority of the players who don't seek the game out on its forum & blogspot site won't share my specific brand of autism)
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for the record I think alex is 100% correct to wait to upload this to steam. subnautica is a great game & i never got to experience its finished experience bc i played it in its alpha state to saturation, such that when it reached its 1.0 it had effectively been ruined by my having already consumed it. like eating the raw pasta out of the pot until you're full before the chef has finished making the spaghetti sauce & then getting huffy when he insists on the children staying out of the children
(of course SS is an exception, its beta state (doing simulator & missions for hundreds of hours) happened to be the game i wanted to play & all the rest is cherry on top but the majority of the players who don't seek the game out on its forum & blogspot site won't share my specific brand of autism)
Not sure I would compare it to eating raw pasta out of the pot.. that wouldn't end well in any scenario.
I agree with your points about getting bored of alpha/beta releases.
I had the same problem with Elite Dangerous, played it way too much during the first kick-starter beta.
Star sectors a little different though in that regard, it's much closer to being a full 1.0 product than any other game I've played 'too early' (imo)
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The biggest factor there is the replayability and length of said game. Starsector thankfully being very replayable and not super long gives it a ton of effective time someone might enjoy it, so each patch is a different experience (and that's not even mentioning mods). Then there's more straight forward games, let's say adventure, action something that has half of the game done, and it slowly adds on content until the end is implemented. Such games made for one, maybe two playthroughs tend to be bad in this regard since the devs usually add QoL and bug fixes towards the end of development cycle. So the early experience is both very unstable, and unsatisfying due to the incomplete story and progression. So it can leave a bad taste in someone's mouth, meaning they never experience the full thing.
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The biggest factor there is the replayability and length of said game. Starsector thankfully being very replayable and not super long gives it a ton of effective time someone might enjoy it, so each patch is a different experience (and that's not even mentioning mods). Then there's more straight forward games, let's say adventure, action something that has half of the game done, and it slowly adds on content until the end is implemented. Such games made for one, maybe two playthroughs tend to be bad in this regard since the devs usually add QoL and bug fixes towards the end of development cycle. So the early experience is both very unstable, and unsatisfying due to the incomplete story and progression. So it can leave a bad taste in someone's mouth, meaning they never experience the full thing.
I agree, the (very) early release of Mount Blade 2 was a good example of that.
I just want to see a story mode progression in the next update as I've been waiting what seems like forever since the big Ziggurat update.
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i think if SS waits until the right time (after a similar-ish AAA open world game flops?) to launch on steam it could do insane numbers. a couple years ago i wouldnt have believed it but this game has become a cult classic over time, i hear ppl bring it up out of nowhere at least once a month