Fractal Softworks Forum
Starsector => Suggestions => Topic started by: tomatopaste on December 19, 2022, 10:39:20 PM
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The pulse laser is easily the least useful medium energy weapon in my experience because it lacks any specialised role and just isn't worth the slot when weapons like the ion pulser exist. Giving the pulse laser a ~25% bonus vs shields would go a long way to making it have any effective use in high tech loadouts.
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Literally the new kinetic medium blaster.
I do agree that the Pulse Laser kinda sucks though. Especially the medium. It does terrible armor damage and only 1:1 shield damage. It also has pretty crappy value in general. You would probably be better off running a single Ion Pulser or 1 Heavy Blaster than two Pulse Lasers. I would've expected it to have better flux efficiency like its smaller cousin.
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The problem with Pulse Laser is the nature of high tech ships, not the weapon itself (although it could be a bit more interesting). You pretty much always go with either burst, or some support builds with beams and missiles. There's currently 2 slow high tech ships which go against the tech doctrine and both have no place for Pulse Lasers. It takes too long to do anything so it puts close range ships in a bad situation. Midline ships just don't need a 1.0 energy weapon with a weak punch when they have ballistics.
So what if we double down on that playstyle and make it do increased damage (or faster attack speed), the longer it fires. Much like the teased Graviton change, but the inverse formula. Meaning the damage/speed slowly ramps up, but the max effect has the biggest leap and it caps out at say 10 seconds for example. Not sure what else can be done since it was already buffed twice I think, and both times it received better efficiency.
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Not sure what else can be done since it was already buffed twice I think, and both times it received better efficiency.
Even MORE efficiency of course.
Actually, checking the Pulse Laser's description on wiki it has an entire section about its supposed special properties: "Greater energy delivered in shorter time means the target is ablated, a process that causes the vaporization of small surfaces sections. The resulting shock waves do additional structural damage." Sounds to me like it originally had some secondary effect, like extra damage vs. hull? That never really materialized because of the residual 5% armor.
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I don’t think every Energy weapon needs a secondary effect. The Pulse Laser is the king of mediocre doing equal damage to shields and armor. It just has short range and poor armor penetration. It’s meant to be a middle ground between Ballistics and Kinetics but not as specialized. But…
…let’s say it ignored residual armor. Against lighter targets, the damage boost would be like 10-15% but against super heavy armor (2,000+) with 100+ residual armor, it’s now doing 2x more damage. Basically, it’s always 300 DPS against hull. To be honest, since it has awful armor penetration, that might not be a terrible trade-off. If you can get past the armor, the Pulse Laser eats through hull about as well (and far more efficiently) than a Heavy Blaster.
That would make it more interesting but that also means Low Tech advantages could get eaten by Redacted fleets with a bunch of Pulse Lasers. Getting through hull is the most time-consuming task in time-to-kill so a Pulse Laser being good at that would be a huge buff.
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If you can get past the armor, the Pulse Laser eats through hull about as well (and far more efficiently) than a Heavy Blaster.
Cruiser residual armor is like 50 (0.05 * 1000), and low tech capitals with heavy armor is like 100 (0.05 * 2000)
Pulse laser is 100 hit strength, so 200 DPS (0.66 damage per flux) to cruiser hull and 150 DPS (0.5 damage per flux) to low tech capital hull.
Heavy blaster is 500 hit strength, so 454 DPS (0.63 damage per flux) to cruiser hull and 416 DPS (0.57 damage per flux) to low tech capital hull.
At the large end of ships (which is where you need the help crushing hull to be honest), the Heavy Blaster is in some cases more flux efficient than the Pulse Laser at destroying hull, and very comparable at the Cruiser tier, while doing over twice the DPS in the same mount (or in other words, saving OP for other things).
So I wouldn't call over a factor of 2 difference in DPS comparable, nor is it significantly more efficient against targets for which hull damage efficiency matters.
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If you can get past the armor, the Pulse Laser eats through hull about as well (and far more efficiently) than a Heavy Blaster.
Cruiser residual armor is like 50 (0.05 * 1000), and low tech capitals with heavy armor is like 100 (0.05 * 2000)
Pulse laser is 100 hit strength, so 200 DPS (0.66 damage per flux) to cruiser hull and 150 DPS (0.5 damage per flux) to low tech capital hull.
Heavy blaster is 500 hit strength, so 454 DPS (0.63 damage per flux) to cruiser hull and 416 DPS (0.57 damage per flux) to low tech capital hull.
At the large end of ships (which is where you need the help crushing hull to be honest), the Heavy Blaster is in some cases more flux efficient than the Pulse Laser at destroying hull, and very comparable at the Cruiser tier, while doing over twice the DPS in the same mount (or in other words, saving OP for other things).
So I wouldn't call over a factor of 2 difference in DPS comparable, nor is it significantly more efficient against targets for which hull damage efficiency matters.
(To give exact numbers, Heavy Blasters have higher efficiency against hull/armor whenever armor > 61.8, or the residual for any ship with at least 1235.96 armor)
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To me the pulse laser is a weapon whose niche is in attacking smaller ships, and in that role it is effective because it has high accuracy, shot speed, high enough damage to deal with frigate/light destroyer armor, high dps, and is good enough vs shields. For targets with light armor, its a "no finesse" weapon to go up against: you can't win by taking shots on either armor or shields, so there's no way to mitigate the incoming damage - kind of like the plasma cannon for larger ships (the pulse laser has better efficiency and better dps/OP than the plasma cannon... it just can't deal with heavy armor!).
I like to use the pulse laser on tempest/wolves (least bad option)/glimmer/pirate mules (in the early game), on the back mediums of a paragon (to deal with flanking frigates and fighters), and on medusas. Depending somewhat on what I'm going up against. I have in a pinch used them on Falcons and Eagles as anti-small ship/assault weapons, and they worked well enough there, but the synergy between phase lances and kinetics is too high and pushes the pulse laser out (not to mention that Falcons/Eagles I'm expecting to fight larger ships in the mid to late game).
In terms of anti shield DPS, its not bad at 300. Thats more than an HVD, and more than many HAC's because of missing so many shots. The flux efficiency of 1.0 is worse than both of those weapons which matters a lot for symmetric contests - Wolves struggle 1v1 vs anything with shields, even kites, because they just don't have enough flux to run a pulse laser, but I'd argue that more a Wolf problem than a pulse laser problem (Grievous mentioned this in that the nature of high tech ships doesn't always work well with the pulse laser, and I'd say this is true for wolves that are trying to 1v1 things).
Its terrible vs high armor which makes it a bad choice for ships that need to deal with that! Otoh, there are 2 other weapons of the same size class that are good at heavy armor: the heavy blaster and the phase lance. And also missiles if the ship has access to those.
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If you can get past the armor, the Pulse Laser eats through hull about as well (and far more efficiently) than a Heavy Blaster.
Cruiser residual armor is like 50 (0.05 * 1000), and low tech capitals with heavy armor is like 100 (0.05 * 2000)
Pulse laser is 100 hit strength, so 200 DPS (0.66 damage per flux) to cruiser hull and 150 DPS (0.5 damage per flux) to low tech capital hull.
Heavy blaster is 500 hit strength, so 454 DPS (0.63 damage per flux) to cruiser hull and 416 DPS (0.57 damage per flux) to low tech capital hull.
At the large end of ships (which is where you need the help crushing hull to be honest), the Heavy Blaster is in some cases more flux efficient than the Pulse Laser at destroying hull, and very comparable at the Cruiser tier, while doing over twice the DPS in the same mount (or in other words, saving OP for other things).
So I wouldn't call over a factor of 2 difference in DPS comparable, nor is it significantly more efficient against targets for which hull damage efficiency matters.
I was alluding to the idea of Pulse Lasers doing 2x damage to high armor because it ignored residual (the full 300 DPS against 100+ residual armor, instead of <150) vs. the Heavy Blaster’s 415ish. Yes, the DPS is still higher for the HB but its flux efficiency is .58 compared to the (proposed) Pulse Laser’s 1.0. I’m saying the change would actually favor the Pulse Laser from an efficiency standpoint. Currently, if you have 100+ residual armor, the Pulse Laser’s efficiency is <.50 and yes, worse than the HB.
If the Pulse Laser ignored residual armor, I’m saying it suddenly becomes a decent-to-great weapon against super-heavy targets (once the armor is stripped)…which feels kind of weird.
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If you can get past the armor, the Pulse Laser eats through hull about as well (and far more efficiently) than a Heavy Blaster.
Cruiser residual armor is like 50 (0.05 * 1000), and low tech capitals with heavy armor is like 100 (0.05 * 2000)
Pulse laser is 100 hit strength, so 200 DPS (0.66 damage per flux) to cruiser hull and 150 DPS (0.5 damage per flux) to low tech capital hull.
Heavy blaster is 500 hit strength, so 454 DPS (0.63 damage per flux) to cruiser hull and 416 DPS (0.57 damage per flux) to low tech capital hull.
At the large end of ships (which is where you need the help crushing hull to be honest), the Heavy Blaster is in some cases more flux efficient than the Pulse Laser at destroying hull, and very comparable at the Cruiser tier, while doing over twice the DPS in the same mount (or in other words, saving OP for other things).
So I wouldn't call over a factor of 2 difference in DPS comparable, nor is it significantly more efficient against targets for which hull damage efficiency matters.
I was alluding to the idea of Pulse Lasers doing 2x damage to high armor because it ignored residual (the full 300 DPS against 100+ residual armor, instead of <150) vs. the Heavy Blaster’s 415ish.
Oh, that's a failed reading check on my part. Re-reading that with your clarification, and the surrounding discussion, that argument does makes sense to me. In which case 50% better efficiency is significant. Sorry for the confusion.
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Just nerf the Heavy Blaster instead.
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Just nerf the Heavy Blaster instead.
Heavy Blaster has enough going against it already. It is too inefficient to use on everything with a medium mount.
The problem with Pulse Laser is the nature of high tech ships, not the weapon itself (although it could be a bit more interesting). You pretty much always go with either burst, or some support builds with beams and missiles. There's currently 2 slow high tech ships which go against the tech doctrine and both have no place for Pulse Lasers. It takes too long to do anything so it puts close range ships in a bad situation. Midline ships just don't need a 1.0 energy weapon with a weak punch when they have ballistics.
Assuming one of the slow ones is Apogee, Pulse Laser is nice in the back for anti-small ship. Of course, if I desperate for more OP, I may downgrade to IR PLs.
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Just nerf the Heavy Blaster instead.
Yea let's nerf the only good medium weapons so the rest looks less bad in comparison /s
Ion Pulser nerf was justified, I don't see how Heavy Blaster could be nerfed without killing it.
Assuming one of the slow ones is Apogee, Pulse Laser is nice in the back for anti-small ship. Of course, if I desperate for more OP, I may downgrade to IR PLs.
Yea I can't justify spending 20 OP on high flux fly swatters, small Burst PD works fine.
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Assuming one of the slow ones is Apogee, Pulse Laser is nice in the back for anti-small ship. Of course, if I desperate for more OP, I may downgrade to IR PLs.
Yea I can't justify spending 20 OP on high flux fly swatters, small Burst PD works fine.
Fighters, maybe; but frigates and destroyers could use some more oomph to take them out, especially if my ship does not a heavy (homing) missile yet. Now if Apogee did not have flares, I would probably use burst lasers. But with flares taking care of missiles, pulse lasers (small or medium) seem more useful against non-missile threats.
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.... Yea I can't justify spending 20 OP on high flux fly swatters, small Burst PD works fine.
What if the Pulse Laser had its OP cost lowered, making it a budget option?
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.... Yea I can't justify spending 20 OP on high flux fly swatters, small Burst PD works fine.
What if the Pulse Laser had its OP cost lowered, making it a budget option?
Perhaps, it might indirectly help the Wolf since now it can squeeze a bit more on flux stats.
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Yea let's nerf the only good medium weapons so the rest looks less bad in comparison /s
Yes, that's how you balance things without powercreep. "Only good" is just another way of saying overpowered.
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Yes, that's how you balance things without powercreep. "Only good" is just another way of saying overpowered.
Or all the other medium energies suck.
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Yea let's nerf the only good medium weapons so the rest looks less bad in comparison /s
Yes, that's how you balance things without powercreep. "Only good" is just another way of saying overpowered.
Medium energy weapons is the only "class" where I don't use like half of the weapons because they stink or are too niche.
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Or all the other medium energies suck.
Medium energy weapons is the only "class" where I don't use like half of the weapons because they stink or are too niche.
All of the above!
Most medium energy weapons are underwhelming or specialized tools. They are at least one among low-powered (Graviton Beam, Heavy Burst Laser, Ion Beam), horrible range (Mining Blaster, Ion Pulser), or inefficient (the rest).
If the mount is hybrid or universal, I would very likely use some ballistic (or rarely heavy blaster) over pulse laser.
If I need to use medium energy weapons for anti-shield, my first choice is IR PLs if the ship has ePD+IPDAI. If not, then either Pulse Lasers or (occasionally) HSA Graviton Beams.
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Ion Pulser is great wtf. First time (this patch) I heard someone mention it in a negative way.
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Same tbh - the performance of the ion pulser is one of the reasons that the pulse laser feels weak in many situations. Even though the pulse laser has better range, sustained dps, and efficiency, burst damage is just very powerful on mobile skirmisher ships and so is a flanking source of burst ion!
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I would not want to use Ion Pulser as a workhorse (shield-cracker) weapon unless it can overload their shields in a single burst. I usually use it either as a finisher or non-missile PD. The main annoyance of Ion Pulser is poor range on non-SO ships.
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The Pulse Laser is the definition of a do-it-all generalist weapon. It does precisely half the damage of a Medium Ballistic or Kinetic, at less range, for 50% more flux, but with perfect accuracy, little overkill/decent rate of fire, in one mount and only 10 OP. It doesn't do anything remarkable for good or ill, but that's kind of the point. In a sea of specialization, it does look bad by comparison but truly, it's the ideal generalist weapon.
I suppose if you really wanted to modify it slightly, increase its damage to 150 and only fire twice a second. It would be the same shield DPS but have greater armor penetration. The trade-off is that it wouldn't deal with fighters quite as well and be slightly inferior as a pressure weapon. However, I think the Pulse Laser is overall fine for what it is.
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I think accuracy is an important consideration when it comes to comparing the pulse laser to a kinetic because the pulse laser is so accurate. HVDs have great accuracy but only 275 DPS vs shields, although at much greater range. HACs have 428 DPS vs shields, but miss a lot - if 2/3 of the shots are hitting they do 285 DPS.
So the 300 DPS of a pulse laser really isn't that bad. They cost more flux which is bad on ships with mixed armaments, they have low range (but high tech ships are often fast), and they are bad vs medium+ armor (but then against kinetics are bad vs light+ armor).
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The Pulse Laser is the definition of a do-it-all generalist weapon. It does precisely half the damage of a Medium Ballistic or Kinetic, at less range, for 50% more flux, but with perfect accuracy, little overkill/decent rate of fire, in one mount and only 10 OP. It doesn't do anything remarkable for good or ill, but that's kind of the point. In a sea of specialization, it does look bad by comparison but truly, it's the ideal generalist weapon.
I suppose if you really wanted to modify it slightly, increase its damage to 150 and only fire twice a second. It would be the same shield DPS but have greater armor penetration. The trade-off is that it wouldn't deal with fighters quite as well and be slightly inferior as a pressure weapon. However, I think the Pulse Laser is overall fine for what it is.
That's exactly why it needs changing. While it may be the most generalist, the nature of high tech ships is such that they have no use for it, since specialised weapons are virtually always the better option for effective loadouts. The pulse laser is certainly not worth 10 OP in its current state.
The new kinetic blaster will probably replace the pulse laser in the few places I use it like on wolf loadouts, which is why the pulse laser needs some kind of edge, since it currently does not have a niche. There are far better missile options for cracking armour especially now that the breach is available.
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Simple way to buff the pulse laser without actually changing any of the values (because it doesn't need changing, it's flux-efficient and an energy projectile weapon.. it has enough perks): Halve the fire rate, double the damage/flux cost per shot. Or reduce fire rate by x0,66, up damage/flux by x1,33. Something like that.
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For me, the biggest competitor of Pulse Laser is two IR PLs boosted by ePD+IPDAI (because ships tend to have plenty of mounts, but not enough dissipation for all of the mounts). More efficient and better range. Worse anti-armor, but if I wanted anti-armor, I would use a blaster.
Pulse Laser is only generalist because the other assault weapons are anti-armor specialists (blasters or lances), or disabler in case of Ion Pulser. Pulse Laser is not good enough as a generalist. Its anti-armor is not very good, and it is not efficient enough for shield-cracking, even if has better efficiency than other medium energy assault weapons.
If Pulse Laser needs a buff, either better efficiency like IR PL or Autopulse, or OP cost lowered to 8 or 9, or (sacrilege) boost its range by 50 or 100.
I like to see Wolf be able to support Pulse Laser. So far, Wolf with hard flux weapons can only sort of brawl with ePD+IPDAI IR PLs and/or Ion Pulser. If I try medium Pulse Laser Wolf against a shielded 4 or 5 DP frigate, Wolf always loses the flux war unless it has a massive skill and flux advantage (which often includes leaving some mounts empty).
P.S. Given all usable (human) medium energy weapons, Pulse Laser's primary role is shield-cracker, even if designed as a generalist because the other options are worse at anti-shield.
HSA Gravitons are an OP pig (after spending OP on HSA) and cannot use small mounts like IR PLs.
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That's exactly why it needs changing. While it may be the most generalist, the nature of high tech ships is such that they have no use for it, since specialised weapons are virtually always the better option for effective loadouts. The pulse laser is certainly not worth 10 OP in its current state.
The new kinetic blaster will probably replace the pulse laser in the few places I use it like on wolf loadouts, which is why the pulse laser needs some kind of edge, since it currently does not have a niche. There are far better missile options for cracking armour especially now that the breach is available.
I'd argue the exact opposite. High tech always has a use for it, there are just better options if you have the OP to spare and the specialized weapon is available. Don't forget, Heavy Blasters, Ion Pulsers, Ion Beams, etc. are higher tier weapons and not always available. Pulse Lasers, on the other hand, are ubiquitous. They're the Heavy Mortars/Arbalests of High Tech. You have to have lower-tier weapons available otherwise you're stuck with Mining Blasters and Gravitons in every Medium Energy mount. We can't assume everyone has access to the best weapons at all times.
You can't just look at the Pulse Laser from the perspective of the player. You also need weapons to fight against. Enemy fleets with Pulse Lasers might not be quite as challenging, but then again, player skill is all over the place and some folks might need an easier target (though I'd argue that the only thing a Pulse Laser allows you to do is armor tank a bit better). Also, any kind of buff to the Pulse Laser is also going to buff REDACTED fleets, who use them a lot.
Regarding the Kinetic Blaster, I was under the impression only Diktat are going to use it and it wouldn't be widely available. It might be a better weapon but it will be very limited, at least that was my understanding.
Simple way to buff the pulse laser without actually changing any of the values (because it doesn't need changing, it's flux-efficient and an energy projectile weapon.. it has enough perks): Halve the fire rate, double the damage/flux cost per shot. Or reduce fire rate by x0,66, up damage/flux by x1,33. Something like that.
I suggested that just two posts above yours... :P
If Pulse Laser needs a buff, either better efficiency like IR PL or Autopulse, or OP cost lowered to 8 or 9.
P.S. Given all of energy weapons usable in medium energy, Pulse Lasers primary role is shield-cracker, even if designed as a generalist because the other options are worse at anti-shield.
IR Pulse being .9 efficiency was a good buff but Pulse Laser went from 1.1 to 1 in the same patch. Better efficiency doesn't help its primary deficiency, which is anti-armor. What really stands out is that the Ion Pulser's damage/shot is 90 compared to the PL's 100. Basically, its 90% as good against armor as the PL but it also has the added EMP effect. Yes it has shorter range and lower sustained DPS but that's where the PL create some separation with higher damage/shot.
I suppose the real question is why the PL has such a high rate of fire. Its accuracy is perfect so the "spray n' pray" methodology doesn't really fit and I suppose it makes it better against fast targets (more opportunity to hit) but it's really not advertised as anti-fighter. Increasing its damage/shot, but lowering the RoF, seems like a good fit if you were going to alter it in any way. Even a modest bump, like 135 damage/shot would help, at like 130 flux/shot (.96 efficiency) would be all it needs and puts it below the Autopulse (which is 150 damage/shot at 125 flux/shot already).
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IR Pulse being .9 efficiency was a good buff but Pulse Laser went from 1.1 to 1 in the same patch. Better efficiency doesn't help its primary deficiency, which is anti-armor. What really stands out is that the Ion Pulser's damage/shot is 90 compared to the PL's 100. Basically, its 90% as good against armor as the PL but it also has the added EMP effect. Yes it has shorter range and lower sustained DPS but that's where the PL create some separation with higher damage/shot.
IR PL currently has about 0.8 efficiency.
Pulse Laser is deficient against both heavy armor and shields. There are other anti-armor weapon options but not anti-shield (aside from ePD+IPDAI IR PLs). I consider mediocre anti-shield performance the primary deficiency on Pulse Laser.
If Pulse Laser has better anti-armor, then heavy blaster's only niche left would be DPS on one-mount wonders like Shrike and Fury.
Regarding the Kinetic Blaster, I was under the impression only Diktat are going to use it and it wouldn't be widely available. It might be a better weapon but it will be very limited, at least that was my understanding.
That is what I understood too. Maybe no blueprints and no orders with illegal gunrunners, dropped only by Lion Guard's Executors. (Grunt Diktat Executors might use standard human weapons.)
Some human weapons are rare enough that I consider them unlimited only after I get the blueprint and Heavy Industry online.
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Even if we raised the Pulse Laser's damage/shot to 135-150, it's still vastly inferior to the Heavy Blaster's 500. Even with higher single-shot damage, the Pulse Laser is in absolutely no way in danger of usurping the Heavy Blaster.
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Even if we raised the Pulse Laser's damage/shot to 135-150...
That is about autopulse tier, which is also not very good against heavy armor. (Autopulse running on sustained only in a protracted fight is not very impressive.) Sure, about 150 per shot is better anti-armor than what pulse laser has today, but not so much better that I would take it primarily for anti-armor. My ship still needs a shield-cracker, which would be an energy weapon if it does not use or cannot carry enough Sabots.
I have used Mining Blaster instead of Autopulse (early in the game when I had limited weapon availability) on starter Apogee because of armor penetration problems against heavy armor targets like enemy Ventures or weaker battlestations.
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I don't think the pulse laser should be good - or even decent - against heavy armor. That's what phase lances and the blasters are for.
And if armor isn't good against weapons like the medium pulse laser, what is all that plating even for?
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Sorry FooF, I was being lazy and didn't read every single post. We just had the same great idea. ;)
Yes, Pulse Laser doesn't have to be great at armor-cracking. Giving it stronger damage with lower RoF still would not make it amazing vs. armor. The difference between 100 and 150 is pretty much piddly. It would make it a good deal better vs. frigates and light destroyers though - which the Phase Lance also obliterates thanks to its extreme burst that the AI cannot deal with nor properly anticipate. I never felt Pulse Laser was weak. In fact, for the longest time I thought Phase Lance needed the buff more because it lacks the flux efficiency. But thanks to how AI does (not) handle it, Phase Lance actually excels whereas PL is just the definition of average. It's still one of the best energy weapons up to that size for winning flux battles vs. shields. If it loses that crown in the next version, it would deserve something extra, yes.
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If the pulse laser is to get a buff damage shouldn’t really be it.
It does 300 dps and has 100 armor pen. That is objectively good for a medium weapon. The only problem it has is that it also costs 300 flux per second and because it’s neither HE nor Kinetic you get neither the “it’s very valuable to flux dump this into armor” nor the “it’s very valuable to flux dump this into shields” advantage that HE and Kin have.
Two IR pulse do 304 dmg for 242 flux. This is worse Vs armor (50 Vs 100 pen) and has lower range but given that the range difference isn’t that much and running multiple pulse lasers is difficult for most ships anyway… the two IR pulse might be better than the single pulse laser because your anti-armor value doesn’t much matter if you lose the flux War and your weapons shut off.
Now, if you only have one medium slot this isn’t an issue. But very few ships have slot and flux stats that make it make sense. *
So if pulse lasers are to be buffed (and I am not sure they should be, after all, weak weapons are fine, they give AI loadouts things to use and players upgrade space) it should be in flux efficiency or in OP cost. RoF I don’t think is great because most ships already have difficulty firing a pulse laser.
*the shirke being I think the only one, and it still has small slots to utilize IR pulse. (This because a single pulse laser can start winning the flux war on a small ship from further away and an antimatter blaster rather than IR pulse can finish the job). But the Shrike still has the flux to maybe like a HB instead.
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If the pulse laser is to get a buff damage shouldn’t really be it.
It does 300 dps and has 100 armor pen. That is objectively good for a medium weapon. The only problem it has is that it also costs 300 flux per second and because it’s neither HE nor Kinetic you get neither the “it’s very valuable to flux dump this into armor” nor the “it’s very valuable to flux dump this into shields” advantage that HE and Kin have.
Two IR pulse do 304 dmg for 242 flux. This is worse Vs armor (50 Vs 100 pen) and has lower range but given that the range difference isn’t that much and running multiple pulse lasers is difficult for most ships anyway… the two IR pulse might be better than the single pulse laser because your anti-armor value doesn’t much matter if you lose the flux War and your weapons shut off.
Now, if you only have one medium slot this isn’t an issue. But very few ships have slot and flux stats that make it make sense. *
So if pulse lasers are to be buffed (and I am not sure they should be, after all, weak weapons are fine, they give AI loadouts things to use and players upgrade space) it should be in flux efficiency or in OP cost. RoF I don’t think is great because most ships already have difficulty firing a pulse laser.
*the shirke being I think the only one, and it still has small slots to utilize IR pulse. (This because a single pulse laser can start winning the flux war on a small ship from further away and an antimatter blaster rather than IR pulse can finish the job). But the Shrike still has the flux to maybe like a HB instead.
Pulse Laser efficiency is precisely why raising the damage/shot but lowering the ROF makes sense to me. No, you're not getting through shields any faster (it's still 300 DPS for 300 flux) but you are getting through armor/hull faster because of the greater damage/shot. Saying "I don't worry about the Pulse Laser (or IR Pulse) getting through armor" doesn't necessarily mean you turn these weapons off once they get through shields. I would imagine you're still firing them. That means any kind of reduction in time-to-kill is an efficiency gain, just on the backend.
Now, I think it's much simpler to reduce Pulse Laser flux/shot to 90 and be done with it. It makes it a better shield-breaker by virtue of efficiency. Or you could combine both ideas and raise to 135 damage/shot for 125 flux (.92 efficiency), and reduce RoF to .45 (or 2.22 shots per second). That would make it slightly better in both armor penetration and shield breaking, without changing actual DPS values.
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But I don’t want it better at breaking armor. It’s fine at breaking armor as it is. And the Heavy Blaster is the dedicated armor breaker that is good at breaking armor. No need to make the PL good enough at breaking armor and better at breaking shield than the HB. I would prefer increasing its RoF and giving it more DPS and flux usage than increasing its damage per shot.
The “problem” with the pulse laser, if there is one, is that it’s bad at breaking Shields. You have a hard time effectively flux dumping into enemy shields because your efficiency is 1 to 1 and your raw output is lower than HBs. You then do not win the flux war against any ship that has even a modicum of kinetic.
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Pulse Laser efficiency is precisely why raising the damage/shot but lowering the ROF makes sense to me. No, you're not getting through shields any faster (it's still 300 DPS for 300 flux) but you are getting through armor/hull faster because of the greater damage/shot. Saying "I don't worry about the Pulse Laser (or IR Pulse) getting through armor" doesn't necessarily mean you turn these weapons off once they get through shields. I would imagine you're still firing them. That means any kind of reduction in time-to-kill is an efficiency gain, just on the backend.
Yes, my ships continue firing pulse lasers at targets after shields drop because that is all they have or part of the entire assault package.
Giving unlimited weapon access and sufficient dissipation, the only reason I would use Pulse Laser instead of Heavy Blaster for the ships is better shield-cracking efficiency, and only when IR PL is not a better option.
Pulse Laser getting through armor faster does not matter if it fails to win the flux war in the first place.
The “problem” with the pulse laser, if there is one, is that it’s bad at breaking Shields. You have a hard time effectively flux dumping into enemy shields because your efficiency is 1 to 1 and your raw output is lower than HBs. You then do not win the flux war against any ship that has even a modicum of kinetic.
This is main problem of Pulse Laser. I go out of my way to put ePD+IPDAI on the ship to buff IR PLs and make two of them better than each Pulse Laser. I suppose I could use Safety Override instead and chop shot range of everything else (although I start using blasters with that much dissipation).
Aside from IR PL having 0.8 efficiency, Autopulse also has somewhere between 0.8 and 0.9 efficiency. Pulse Laser tries to be mini-plasma cannon, but its hit strength or DPS is not good enough for that role with only 1.0 efficiency.
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Think about how efficient a pulse laser is Vs a HB Vs Shields
In 1 second the pulse laser does 300 dmg and the HB 500. The pulse laser eats 300 and the HB 720.
So it looks like the HB is way behind. It is 320 net flux behind. The HB ship has taken 1020 flux and the PL ship has taken 800. The PL is way ahead.
But assume Youre shooting something that has lots of kinetics. (Which is common because kinetics are good) and is firing at exactly 1 to 1 before the kinetic bonus. Well then it gets another 200 flux each second to shoot kinetics at you, which is worth 400 damage. Now youre now only 20 flux ahead using the “shield killing” PL. this gets better the better your Shields are and the better the enemies Shields are (and gets worse the better the enemies weapon efficiency is). But it’s still not a terribly huge difference. And if you have your own kinetic weapons why would you trade a net 20 flux trade advantage for the raw power of HB?
(Though they may be a lot better Vs high tech ships which only have energy, it may be worth testing Vs redacted, but I suspect you will do better with IR pulse in that instance)
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Think about how efficient a pulse laser is Vs a HB Vs Shields
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I have observed this in previous releases. If enemy has more time to shoot back, the attacker (with PL) takes more flux from the enemy - hard flux at that!
Another advantage blasters have over pulse laser is no-windup, which is more friendly for strikes or hit-and-run.
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It is exacerbated by the fact that a lot of ships that would use PL are “punch down” ships rather than “hold the line” ships (which tend to have kinetics for obvious reasons) and as a result are always on a “enemy ships will show up to aid the isolated one” timer. So if you have HB you’re going to be in fewer multi-ship engagements. You will have time to reset your max cap.
Edit: like. Name one ship that is going to sit on the line and trade/push away with medium energy weapons. The eagle can do it but probably not with pulse lasers
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It is exacerbated by the fact that a lot of ships that would use PL are “punch down” ships rather than “hold the line” ships (which tend to have kinetics for obvious reasons) and as a result are always on a “enemy ships will show up to aid the isolated one” timer. So if you have HB you’re going to be in fewer multi-ship engagements. You will have time to reset your max cap.
Yes, my ship feels stuck to the enemy and needs to drill with pulse lasers for a while just to damage enemies effectively. With blasters, ship can run-and-gun popping off shots like Doomguy with super shotgun.
Edit: like. Name one ship that is going to sit on the line and trade/push away with medium energy weapons. The eagle can do it but probably not with pulse lasers
It hurts. I have tried it with various ships (like Medusa and Aurora), but not very satisfied with the performance even when they can win like that. Often, even if the ship wins the flux war, it may have less than a second to cause damage safely, and a steady weapon with windup is not very good at exploiting brief openings like a heavy blaster can.
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I think I could maybe make it work on an Eagle. I like phase lances there usually because the burst flattens fighters. But 3x PL with 3 kinetic in front would probably be fine at winning flux wars.
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Pulse Eagle is pretty cool but suffers from being a high throughput but low cap build - it doesn't have the stamina to really put on the hurt.
In general I've found that giving Eagle fits plenty of caps helps it quite a bit. Heavy armor to let it go shield-down a bit helps as well.
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The only change I want to see to the pulse laser is... make it an actual laser! That's right, turn it into a crappy beam weapon.
Before the IR Autolance was revealed I'd say this would be actually feasible, but now probably not since trying to make it viable would make it too similar to the Autolance. But really my only reason for this change is because it always irked me that the pulse lasers shoot projectiles that obviously aren't lasers.
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The only change I want to see to the pulse laser is... make it an actual laser! That's right, turn it into a crappy beam weapon.
Before the modern Phase Lance, the game had Phase Beam, which was about a double strength Tactical Laser with minor EMP damage (no arcing) and costs 12 OP. It was Xyphos' original main weapon.
This was back when beams cost more OP (Tactical Laser was 5 OP), small and medium beams had less range (while HIL had 1200 and Tachyon had 2500+). HIL also did 250 energy damage instead of 500 HE, which was underwhelming.
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In terms of 'sit on the line and fire a pulse laser' the Shrike is a rare ship that comes to mind because it has the flux and slots to be using pulse laser + am blaster/ion cannon (Goumindong mentioned this in their original post) and because the AI uses its system to move in, not move out.
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It’s still a “punch down” destroyer or “swarmer” though at its heart. It can utilize a PL because it’s got only one medium slot and can use smalls for AMB. But I wouldn’t want to utilize that as a “hold the line ship”. It’s got 350-550 / 245-445 flux dissipation(pre/post shield). Which can feel a tad low for a HB plus others. So you can still punch down/swarm with the PL. But even then you’re not firing your entire flux when you’re shooting just the PL unless you skimp on dissipation (which you maybe should do, I do not know)
It just does not have the range or the efficiency to stand up to a destroyer fit with kinetics. So it cannot “hold the line” at any point in the game. Like. As much as people dislike the Eagle the Eagle does a really god job of both not dying and also putting out shield pressure on other ships. It’s kind of, but not quite an ideal “hold the line” ship. The purpose of which isn’t to kill anything but simply to tie up more than it’s DP with of enemies for long enough for the rest of your fleet to do things.
The shirke cannot do that. If you put it near the center of your formation unless you’re a lot stronger than the enemy fleet it’s going to be flattened
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Pulse Laser already has a (theoretical) niche of punching down on low armor ships. The only issue is that the gun is absolutely horrendous. Just buff the the thing from being the absolute death sentence of a 1:1 flux eff energy weapon to being actually efficient like it's smaller cousin. Problem solved of doing horrid damage and problem solved of not overfluxing everything that should be able to mount it.
This kinda steps on the toes of the kinetic thing though so I'd also buff the damage slightly while keeping the same dps and drop the flux/sec to 200-250 or so.
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This kinda steps on the toes of the kinetic thing though so I'd also buff the damage slightly while keeping the same dps and drop the flux/sec to 200-250 or so.
I would not count Lion's Guard weapons if they are too hard to obtain.
At least Prometheus II blueprint could be dropped in salvage, or the ship ordered from some gunrunners if blueprint does not drop. Lion's Guard tech may not even have that, which would make them no more common than Remnant fighters. And farming Executors will hurt rep, which is another annoyance to deal with if I want to maintain some relations with Diktat.
Speaking of Remnants, Brilliant will lose its bay, so unless there are new Remnant variants with Converted Hangar, or Scintillas are present in every fleet, Remnant fighters will get rarer.
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Pulse Laser already has a (theoretical) niche of punching down on low armor ships. The only issue is that the gun is absolutely horrendous. Just buff the the thing from being the absolute death sentence of a 1:1 flux eff energy weapon to being actually efficient like it's smaller cousin. Problem solved of doing horrid damage and problem solved of not overfluxing everything that should be able to mount it.
This kinda steps on the toes of the kinetic thing though so I'd also buff the damage slightly while keeping the same dps and drop the flux/sec to 200-250 or so.
Why is 1:1 flux a death sentence? Especially in the case of "punching down" 1:1 flux is not a problem at all, or in situations where you have multiple ships swarming one target and swapping in/out (the ion pulser or heavy blaster are probably better weapons in the latter scenario tbh, but the point of 1:1 flux efficiency not being a death sentence there stands).
Several things about the gun are good: Its dps/OP and DPS/mount type, its accuracy/shot speed, and vs enemies where 100 shot size is enough being a "no win" gun like the plasma cannon is to bigger ships (pulse laser has better dps/OP and efficiency than a plasma cannon). Its main issue is that for many targets 100 shot size is not enough and it becomes 'ok vs hull, ok vs shields, bad vs armor' instead of 'good, ok, ok'.
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I think it the 1:1 flux is seen as a problem because the kinds of ships that want to use a pulse laser are mostly midline. High tech ships have the flux vents for better stuff like HBs and Ion Pulsers which have the burst DPS to punch through shields and then do something to the ship they hit, and take advantage of those ships' streigths.
Midline can't do that, and 1:1 trading against shields at shortish range with the pulse laser on ships that also have kinetic ballistic options that are at worst 0.66 (HVD) vs shields just isn't worth it. As anti-armor it is just not a good option, and anti-hull is most of the times not particularly important. Most ballistics are not generalist weapons, which means mixing them with pulse lasers just doesn't work that well.
300 DPS just isn't a whole lot vs shields, even the Arbalest does more than that while being cheaper OP and flux-wise. And just like kinetics, the pulse laser is not good at armor striping, although it is definitely better.
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I generally use Pulse Laser on high-tech because most cannot use kinetics or heavy energy weapons. Midline that can use medium energy can also use ballistics or a heavy energy weapon.
On Sunder and Conquest, medium energy mounts are the first to be left empty if I need more OP for more important things or run out of dissipation to support more weapons.
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I am starting to come around on the idea that it’s DPS/OP isn’t actually that good.
The arbalest has 334 DPS/8 OP at 700 range Vs shields. A heavy mortar has 440@440 Vs armor for 7 OP
The combination has 444 vs shields for 15 OP. 29.6 DPS/OP.
Now granted accuracy is a reasonable look but the pulse laser isn’t actually more efficient than the two weakest ballistic weapons in combination. And because armor is very fixed you can set efficiently by having generally more kinetic than HE rather than what was examined above. And those weapons are more efficient.
Light needlers are 37.5. Light autocannons are 50 and LDAC are 57.2. The HB is 41.66
So the pulse laser just isn’t providing quality DPS/OP. Certainly not quality punch down DPS OP especially because as a punch down ship you tend to have only a few medium energy slots. A single pulse laser on a shrike would be OK if enemy frigates tended to only have one single small ballistic. Two pulse lasers on a fury simply cannot cut it unless the capacitor advantage is absurdly huge.
Which is why the superior HB tends to be used. Much better DPS/OP. Functionally better or equivalent flux efficiency due to its much higher DPS/slot.
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300 dps just isn't that good, especially on a weapon with short range and unimpressive efficiency.
More range or a decent efficiency boost would definitely help the pulse laser have a niche other than: "underwhelming general purpose weapon that is mostly for AI filler ships".
Giving it longer range might be an interesting option, making it still a generalist with mediocre stats, but at least one exceptional thing when compared to the other medium energies, which are either short ranged, or support beams. (and the phase lance, which is perfect where it is)
With its current range bracket, it is just an unappealing option when compared to the other short ranged medium energies.
Speaking of the phase lance, they share the same range bracket, and on the surface they would pair together well, with the pulse laser building hard flux and the lance bursting and tearing up hull.
Problem is, just grabbing one of each is 561 flux/s total, and 20 OP. You could get a single heavy blaster for only 12 OP. Yes, it is more flux, but you also have more OP to use for vents and caps and it is 100% hard flux anti-armor. And you get a free medium energy slot to put one of the many support options on. If the pulse laser was to keep it's current stats with no changes, it should probably have a decent OP cost drop to at least make it a budget option.
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double post
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Speaking of the phase lance, they share the same range bracket, and on the surface they would pair together well, with the pulse laser building hard flux and the lance bursting and tearing up hull.
I don't know about that - hardflux weapons and softflux weapons really work at cross purposes - one doesn't care much about softflux, and vice versa for hardflux. Better to go whole-hog.
Fully agreed that the Heavy Blaster a better deal though, or to put it in my own words, either undercosted or overperforming.
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I am starting to come around on the idea that it’s DPS/OP isn’t actually that good.
I agree with this, but I suspect Pulse Laser costs 10 DP as part of the "energy is inferior to ballistics" idea.
Pulse Laser feels more like energy Arbalest or Heavy Mortar than energy HAC.
300 dps just isn't that good, especially on a weapon with short range and unimpressive efficiency.
More range or a decent efficiency boost would definitely help the pulse laser have a niche other than: "underwhelming general purpose weapon that is mostly for AI filler ships".
Giving it longer range might be an interesting option, making it still a generalist with mediocre stats, but at least one exceptional thing when compared to the other medium energies, which are either short ranged, or support beams. (and the phase lance, which is perfect where it is)
With its current range bracket, it is just an unappealing option when compared to the other short ranged medium energies.
More range would make Pulse Laser an alternative to ePD+IPDAI IR PLs. Boosting one of efficiency or range only would still make it worse than ePD+IPDAI IR PLs.
Speaking of the phase lance, they share the same range bracket, and on the surface they would pair together well, with the pulse laser building hard flux and the lance bursting and tearing up hull.
Problem is, just grabbing one of each is 561 flux/s total, and 20 OP. You could get a single heavy blaster for only 12 OP. Yes, it is more flux, but you also have more OP to use for vents and caps and it is 100% hard flux anti-armor. And you get a free medium energy slot to put one of the many support options on. If the pulse laser was to keep it's current stats with no changes, it should probably have a decent OP cost drop to at least make it a budget option.
Phase Lance is a burst or strike weapon. Pulse Laser is a steady-firing stream. The ships I want to use Phase Lance on would not work well with Pulse Laser because of either Advanced Optics or (in case of phase ships with eFM) Phase Anchor.
Phase Lance is good because it is the best weapon for some ship classes.
If Pulse Laser, with no change to DPS or efficiency, is to be more competitive with ballistics, it probably should cost 8 OP.
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I agree with this, but I suspect Pulse Laser costs 10 DP as part of the "energy is inferior to ballistics" idea.
Weapon types should be tradeoffs, not just flat stronger or weaker. (Obviously excluding size)
Medium slot-wise:
Ballistics have excellent specialized options at every range but have no true general-purpose weapons (of course, kinetics basically fill that role).
Missiles are extremely powerful but have limited ammo.
And energy has beams that all have a good niche now with the graviton buff (excluding the HBL), and very strong short-range options that specifically focus on pressing flux advantages.
The pulse laser cannot push flux advantages like the sheer burst power of the Heavy Blaster or Ion Pulser and doesn't really do what beams do.
It wants to be a generalist medium range option, but that is such a good type of weapon that energy slots really want that it has been made very weak to prevent it from being super optimal on everything.
Making it actually a budget option lets it keep that role while still being able to be relatively weak, because at least it will be priced appropriately.
At least then it can actually fill the "filler weapon" role well.
Phase Lance is a burst or strike weapon. Pulse Laser is a steady-firing stream. The ships I want to use Phase Lance on would not work well with Pulse Laser because of either Advanced Optics or (in case of phase ships with eFM) Phase Anchor.
Yeah, the Pulse Laser + Phase Lance combo is very much one that only exists when you look at it in a vacuum.
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Out of curiosity, has anyone done or seen an analysis of the efficiency benefits of the Pulse Laser accuracy compared to say, those Arbalests and Heavy Mortars? Even Heavy Needlers and Heavy Autocannons? Similar to what is being done in the Conquest simulation thread?
I just opened the Random Battle mission, equipped a HAC and Heavy Mortar on an Enforcer and took it against the sim Lasher, just by eye, it looks like a 50% hit rate for both, if not worse. Take 2 Pulse Lasers and put them on a Medusa, and it was literally 100% hit rate. Not a single pulse missed (although some where intercepted by harpoons).
Against small and agile targets, accuracy and turn rate matters far more than 10 or 20% flux/damage efficiency. Even against something like a Hammerhead, you're going to be getting misses at longer ranges with a HAC or Heavy Mortar.
So for me, a Pulse Laser is an anti-small ship weapon as opposed to an anti-cruiser/capital weapon since it reliably hits fighters, frigates, and some fast destroyers within its range and has sufficient armor penetration to reasonably handle that tier of armor. And it does it right out of the box, without skills, without hullmods, in missions as well as within the first encounter of the campaign. The same cannot be said of Heavy Mortar. Imagine putting a Heavy Mortar on a Shrike and trying to hit Pather Hounds early in the game. Or HACs. Against large targets, this is less of a problem, although in player hands Pulse Lasers can drill the exact same spot on the armor, less so with most ballistics.
To bring the kinetics accuracy up, you often need to include armored weapon mounts and turret gyros, along with Gunnery Implants. Elite Ballistics Mastery also helps with the projectile speed.
Pulse lasers, because of their innate accuracy, turn rate, projectile speed, and placement on faster ships means some of those support skills and hullmods don't provide nearly as much help as they do to the kinetics since they are already hitting. On the other hand, that also means they don't need as much of that help.
So here is a question. What skills or hullmod are suppose to help the medium energy projectile weapons in the same way the ballistics get helped out with their poor turn rates, their poor recoil accuracy, and poor shot speed?
Another way to look at it is to ask, what skills and hullmods could I have taken instead of elite point defense or elite ballistics mastery and turrget gyros and armored weapon mounts, to help Pulse lasers? Doesn't help in the medium energy comparisons admittedly, but Pulse Lasers does fall into the hard flux energy mount that you can actually put on a Wolf or non-SO Shrike niche.
If you swap Elite Energy Weapon Mastery for Elite Point defense, and IPDAI for some vents/caps, then you're comparing range 700, 0.8 flux/damage efficiency, 19 DPS/OP for 4 IR Pulse Lasers on a Fury against range 600, perhaps 0.81 flux/damage efficiency, 30 DPS/OP (assuming +10% average damage bonus, -10% flux cost) on the same Fury. 50% more DPS per OP spent at a cost of 100 range and less anti-missile cover (which can either be good or bad depending on what the target is firing).
So I don't think it's a fair comparison to apply elite Point Defense + IPDAI to IR Pulse Lasers and give nothing to the Pulse Lasers. Sure, you can get longer range, but on the other hand, adding elite Energy Weapon Mastery does make Pulse lasers much more flux/damage efficient. At which point ePD + IPDAI still has the 100 range advantage (which is significant to be fair), but at an extra OP cost and a tendency to take a lot of pot shots at missiles instead of the primary ship target.
I would setup some tests of ePD + IR pulse Furies against eEWM + Pulse Laser Furies if I could figure out how to add campaign skills. Although, I suppose I could just mod the range, flux cost, and average damage for that test.
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I count ePD+IPDAI because it is a huge upgrade for IR PL or any other small energy or ballistic non-PD weapon in any mount that accepts them. (PD weapons only need ePD.) It is not just good for upgrading energy weapons for high-tech ships, but ballistics too on non-SO anything where Ballistic Rangefinder does not apply (frigates, ships with hybrid or universal mounts).
Elite on Point Defense is a huge change compared to elite on most other skills. If my officer has Point Defense, it is likely the no-brainer choice or one of the top choices to upgrade to elite.
So I don't think it's a fair comparison to apply elite Point Defense + IPDAI to IR Pulse Lasers and give nothing to the Pulse Lasers.
That is because there is nothing Pulse Lasers can have that IR PLs cannot have too (aside from IR PLs not fitting in a medium synergy mount). Energy Mastery applies to all energy weapons, not just Pulse Laser. Unless you refer to ships that cannot take Point Defense (like unofficered ships).
For my fleet commander, Energy Mastery has stiff competition from Gunnery Implants and other higher Tech skills (if I want more than Gunnery Implants). I will not get Energy Mastery unless I need it for a specific ship build (like max damage Afflictor or four plasma cannon Paragon) and stick with that specialized flagship for a long time.
Also, for Energy Mastery, that absolute 600 range breakpoint for full damage is a real killer for non-SO ships with range boosts, which is nearly always thanks to ITU and maybe Gunnery Implants.
Pulse Lasers does fall into the hard flux energy mount that you can actually put on a Wolf or non-SO Shrike niche.
Yes, but Wolf is bad at it thanks to terrible dissipation. So bad that if I have ePD+IPDAI on Wolf, I actually put IR PL in the medium mount and a second one on the center turret... unless I want Ion Pulser in the hardpoint, two IR PLs in the side turrets.
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TBH I never even use the pulse laser much, but I don’t think it needs a big buff or even a buff at all. The only things that come to mind is to slightly reduce OP cost or maybe give it an extra 50 range. Anything with improving flux efficiency or or shield damage would make it overlap with the new Kinetic blaster that’s coming in the new update.
From the sounds of it the kinetic blaster isn’t going to be efficient, so slight improvement in efficiency of the pulse laser would just make it straight up better than the kinetic blaster. Won’t really see how it pans out until the Soon TM new update.
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Why is 1:1 flux a death sentence?
Other guns offer something else, like energy weapons giving armor crack, or EMP or such. Kinetic or HE weapons give you doubled eff in certain cases. A Pulse Laser is always going to either be a net neutral for you or worse. You're doing the same amount of damage to yourself as you are dishing out. Hence why every other energy weapon that has low hit str also has <1.0 efficiency.
Also as others have said, if you want a punch down weapon you are usually gonna want to run something that actually punches down better.
I think the simplest way to make it better is to just reduce the flux. Give it a niche that isn't "HB but worse", and let it be mounted on some of the single medium energy ships that don't have the flux for any big guns (looking at you wolf)
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TBH I never even use the pulse laser much, but I don’t think it needs a big buff or even a buff at all. The only things that come to mind is to slightly reduce OP cost or maybe give it an extra 50 range. Anything with improving flux efficiency or or shield damage would make it overlap with the new Kinetic blaster that’s coming in the new update...
I agree with the OP cost reduction, bump off a few points and make it by far the cheapest energy weapon in the medium category. That'll be it's niche, sure you can have other things that'll do the job better but they'll cost you.
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Why is 1:1 flux a death sentence?
Other guns offer something else, like energy weapons giving armor crack, or EMP or such. Kinetic or HE weapons give you doubled eff in certain cases. A Pulse Laser is always going to either be a net neutral for you or worse. You're doing the same amount of damage to yourself as you are dishing out. Hence why every other energy weapon that has low hit str also has <1.0 efficiency.
While the Pulser Laser may need some improvements, I would argue there is nothing special about the 1.0 efficiency line itself, at least for hard flux weapons. Simply because weapons don't exist alone in space and have to be fitted to ships which have flux dissipation and shield efficiency values.
Firing a 0.8 efficient IR pulse laser into a shield with 0.6 efficiency (say a Medusa) is having "you doing more damage to yourself then you are dishing out". For each 1.0 hard flux you cause to the enemy ship, you've raised your own soft flux by 1.33. That's even true of something like a Heavy Autocannon (0.5 efficient against shields) firing into a Medusa's shields with Hardened Shields and a Field Modulation officer (0.43 efficiency shield).
The nature of soft flux being removable while shields are up and baseline ship dissipation of course renders that analysis inapplicable in game. So for the same reason that you put might put IR Pulse on a ship and still fire them at Medusa, you might put a 1.0 efficient energy weapon on as well.
I find the arguments comparing to the other low damage per hit energy weapons to be more persuasive. Or the fact that Wolves are over fluxed with the Pulse + Ion cannon combination, unless s-modded, in a fleet with Flux Reguation, and piloted by an officer with Ordinance Expertise or elite Energy Weapon Mastery (or both). Assuming something like 30 OP on weapons (Pulse Laser, Ion cannon, 2x Double Atropos, 2x PD Laser), a pair of s-mods, you can get flux neutral with shields up and firing the Pulse Laser and Ion cannon on a Wolf (150 base + 15 Flux Regulation + 150 vents + 30 s-mod flux distributor + 60 Ordinance Expertise - 30 s-mod stabilized shields = 375 vs 360). If you include the PD, then it's still slightly over even with elite Energy Weapon Mastery (375 vs 396). But that's basically throwing everything and the kitchen sink at it just to be not overly fluxed out.
On the other hand, 300 DPS is on the higher end of raw weapon DPS for medium ballistic/energy mounts (6 have more raw DPS, 12 less), and there typically is a cost to pay for that in some way. It just that DPS doesn't actually happen against armor on larger enemies (cruisers and up, and the occasional Enforcer), although against hull it is pretty respectable. Unlike say, Plasma Cannons, which are terrifying because they have amazing anti-armor performance that has decent shield performance. Dropping shields won't save you. A cruiser dropping shields against Pulse Lasers will save it.
Overall, I think dropping efficiency to 0.66 (i.e. the 200 flux/second) while maintaining 300 DPS would be too extreme, as that's pushing very close to kinetic efficiency territory while still having better than autocannon/needler anti-armor and reasonable anti-hull DPS.
I look at it this way, 2 Pulse Lasers is 600 DPS for 600 flux/second right now (1.0 efficiency).
A Heavy Autocannon and a Heavy Mortar is 538 shield DPS, 547 armor DPS (although really depends on how much armor), and 434 Hull DPS (again depends on residual armor) for 394 flux/second (0.73, 0.72, 0.9).
Dropping to 200 flux/second is 0.66 flux/damage to shields, better than the mixed ballistics case. Even comparing to a Heavy Needler + Heavy Mortar is 380/610 = 0.62, which isn't that far off, with nearly identical shield through put, and better armor/hull through put.
I could see 240 flux/second (0.8 efficiency), as that matches IR Pulse and Autopulse, and doesn't come across as just being plain better than the mixed ballistics case. It's also the ratio I'd expect to balance against a kinetic + HE mixture. Assuming 1.0 efficiency for kinetic and HE, 50% + 200% / 2 = 125% damage per flux, while and 1.0/0.8 = 125% damage per flux if using energy.
Overall ability to fit improves by 10 OP and 300 flux (so ~40 OP worth of stats), to 10 OP and 240 Flux (so ~34 OP worth of fitting stats), so approximately 15% easier to fit and use. It gains baseline range and armor penetration over the IR Pulse Laser in that case. It's also in region of barely flux neutral on Wolf without skills/fleet buffs (i.e. 150 + 100 + 30 (flux distributor) - 30 (stabilized shield) = 250 flux vs 240). Flux Regulation then lets you also throw on an Ion cannon even for unofficered Wolves.
Another alternative to throw out there which hasn't been mentioned is to reduce the overall damage as well as an efficiency improvement. Essentially give it the 0.9a Plasma Cannon treatment, to make it more affordable for the ships that might want to mount them in braces (i.e. Eagle, Apex, etc). Drop damage to 250 and flux to 200/second (fire 2.5 seconds, 100 damage per shot, 80 flux per shot), which would make it quite comfortable on a Wolf, and perhaps result in an Apex that can actually afford to fire its primary armament. Keeping in mind, most medium mounts are not usually twice the damage of a small mount for twice the OP cost. So in going from IR Pulse Laser at 5 OP and ~150 DPS, it a bit unusual for the medium equivalent to cost exactly twice as much at 10 OP and deal twice as much damage.
Dual Light Autocannon->Heavy Autocannon: 5 OP -> 10 OP, 143 DPS -> 214 DPS (+50% DPS), 0.8->1.0 efficiency (-25%), 600 range->800 range (+33%)
Light Needler->Heavy Needler: 8 OP->15 OP, 150 DPS -> 250 DPS (+66% DPS), 0.8->0.8, 700 range->700 range
Right now:
IR Pulse Laser->Pulse Laser: 5 OP -> 10 OP, 152 DPS -> 300 DPS (+100% DPS), 0.8->1.0 efficiency (-25%), 500 range->600 range (+20%)
So if I make the assumption autocannons are in a good place right now, then compared to the autocannon track it looks like the efficiency loss of the Pulse Laser is half paying for the range (+100) and half paying for the DPS increase (an extra 50%). Problem is the DPS increase with poorer efficiency just makes it hard to fit on frigates. Like the old Plasma cannon was on cruisers and capitals. Not it is the way to go, but though it should at least be mentioned.
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To bring the kinetics accuracy up, you often need to include armored weapon mounts and turret gyros, along with Gunnery Implants. Elite Ballistics Mastery also helps with the projectile speed.
One thing... distorting?... the topic is that we have much better options for boosting ballistic weapons than we do energy weapons.
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So the thing is the pulse laser probably should be better than the mixed ballistics case. At least in a vacuum. This is because there are fewer medium energy slots and fewer ships that can utilize them and because energy weapons rely much more on raw efficiency because they do not have multiplicative scaling on their armor cracking. So like. If you have a single weapon in that case it needs to be better than the mixed case or the mixed case is just plain superior since you can mix or specialize.
The “problem” as it were is that the weapon that actually does do that thing currently is the HB. Its extra DPS negates the efficiency disadvantage for the ships that tend to want to shoot it. And its extra armor cracking power makes it more efficient Vs armor and often hull in addition to being faster to kill a target. This relegates the pulse laser to a secondary role or a “weapon downgrade”. I suppose part of the issue is that it’s a pretty heavy downgrade given what these ships are designed to do (punch down) where other downgrades are not usually so pronounced.
I am not sure this is “actually” a problem. There need to be weapons for the AI to use inefficiently after all. But what is a problem is that the weapon as sold as a quality generalist weapon and it’s very different in character from the heavy blaster that it often feels like it should have a different role.
A text upgrade on the pulse laser, saying it’s a less used and older weapon might help some of the thoughts regarding its lack of use. Simply by clarifying that players should probably be upgrading out of it.
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I'm unconvinced that the heavy blaster's dps actually mitigates its poor efficiency when it comes to anti-shield. The factors that make that true are niche: when I'm actually fielding the weapon I find it to be a poor shield breaker because the ships mounting it flux themselves out before breaking the shield unless they have very high flux stats (SO ships use it well for example).
Its a great weapon, but not very good vs shields.
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Yeah, Heavy Blaster is a scary weapon but only when you're already winning the battle. Not sure how its existence makes Pulse Laser look worse. It's just in general that better energy weapons tend to be bursty (large weapons being an exception with HIL and Plasma Cannon).
EDIT: Following this logic, sustained energy weapons ought to be efficient, double down on that road, before we nerf something actually viable. Then midline ships might actually use a non beam energy weapon once in a blue moon.
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I'm unconvinced that the heavy blaster's dps actually mitigates its poor efficiency when it comes to anti-shield. The factors that make that true are niche: when I'm actually fielding the weapon I find it to be a poor shield breaker because the ships mounting it flux themselves out before breaking the shield unless they have very high flux stats (SO ships use it well for example).
Its a great weapon, but not very good vs shields.
Run that same situation with pulses and you will find the same thing. You will tend to flux out before breaking shields unless you have very high relative flux stats.
Its true that the HB is good when you're "already winning". But by that estimation the pulse laser is then bad when you're "already winning" and bad when you're "trying to trade reasonably" because its neither efficient nor damaging enough. Like. Would you put pulse lasers on an aurora and go chasing destroyers with it? Why not use HB, kill them faster, and then vent and then go kill another destroyer/frigate? Would you use pulse lasers on an Aurora to shoot cruisers? You would lose to a badly fit sim eagle. At least with HB aurora you can dump sabots then vent while they're overloaded then kill them. The pulse Aurora can't even do that.
This may not be an issue if the pulse laser is meant to be a "downgrade" weapon. But it is an issue if the pulse laser is not meant to be a "downgrade" weapon.
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I am not sure this is “actually” a problem. There need to be weapons for the AI to use inefficiently after all. But what is a problem is that the weapon as sold as a quality generalist weapon and it’s very different in character from the heavy blaster that it often feels like it should have a different role.
I get the feeling mining blaster is the inefficient weapon, or at least the low-tier Open Market weapon.
Pulse Laser feels like it was designed as the mid-tier military weapon, like HAC for ballistics. Whether it is good enough for that, perhaps it was in some previous releases, but it does not seem like it now.
In my experience, in cases when Pulse Laser can win flux wars that Heavy Blaster cannot, it is a narrow win and does not give enough time for Pulse Laser to do much damage before my ship gets too high on flux too and needs to break off and vent. Winning like that is a slow grind. I guess it is better than not winning flux wars at all with Heavy Blasters, but at that point, either use Sabots plus blasters, or get a ship that can use kinetics or heavy energy weapons instead.
If ship needs to win flux wars with energy weapons only, and cannot use heavy weapons, two or more IR PLs is the only good option, and for non-SO ships, ePD+IPDAI feels nearly mandatory for the extra range.
Plasma cannon can get away with 1.1 efficiency because its sustained DPS is higher than everything else, and hit strength combined with high DPS is good enough to break heavy armor. Pulse Laser does not have any of that for its size class. (If it did, it probably would need to cost 16 OP like the cryoblaster.)
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At least the mining blaster does the "budget low-tier option" in an interesting way.
Having the pulse laser just be an underwhelming and bad generalist just means it will never be seen on anything but AI ships. Why even bother?
The heavy blaster and plasma cannon get away with bad efficiency and high cost because they just kill things quickly, no questions asked.
If you have the flux capacitors and speed to make them work, they will tear through things
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I'm unconvinced that the heavy blaster's dps actually mitigates its poor efficiency when it comes to anti-shield. The factors that make that true are niche: when I'm actually fielding the weapon I find it to be a poor shield breaker because the ships mounting it flux themselves out before breaking the shield unless they have very high flux stats (SO ships use it well for example).
Its a great weapon, but not very good vs shields.
It is, when player piloted.
You slowly build up shield flux on target (possible in multiple passes, venting close to enemy - AI almost never counter-vents), then time it so that you have full flux capacity to dump when enemy is about to overload. This is what a HB Wolf has to do vs Enforcer, for example. Though in a better scenario, you build up flux mostly with other weapons, and use HB only for flux regen overflow, like 2 Railgun + 2 HB Medusa.
On the other hand there is nothing you could smartly exploit about Pulse Laser - it's lackluster through and through.
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I'm unconvinced that the heavy blaster's dps actually mitigates its poor efficiency when it comes to anti-shield. The factors that make that true are niche: when I'm actually fielding the weapon I find it to be a poor shield breaker because the ships mounting it flux themselves out before breaking the shield unless they have very high flux stats (SO ships use it well for example).
Its a great weapon, but not very good vs shields.
Pulse Laser is in a weird spot of being one of the lower flux options with better efficiency than some other weapons and lower dps but also somehow being pretty damn expensive in flux. 300 is far above the average for a medium slot It's closer to the flux of a large weapon. The ships that can't mount it just don't mount it, and the ships that can tend to be better off just using a Heavy Blaster.
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I personally would vote for reduced flux cost to make PL both more efficient and easier to fit flux budget-wise. Matching IR pulse laser at .8 efficiency (300 DPS, 240 flux/sec), or matching auto pulse laser efficiency at .75 efficiency (300 DPS, 225 flux/sec) seem like some obvious candidate values to me. Those three guns already have range and damage/shot differentiating them for mount size and they are all trying to fill the energy slot shield damage role so I feel like it makes sense.
I'm unconvinced that the heavy blaster's dps actually mitigates its poor efficiency when it comes to anti-shield. The factors that make that true are niche: when I'm actually fielding the weapon I find it to be a poor shield breaker because the ships mounting it flux themselves out before breaking the shield unless they have very high flux stats (SO ships use it well for example).
Its a great weapon, but not very good vs shields.
It is, when player piloted.
You slowly build up shield flux on target (possible in multiple passes, venting close to enemy - AI almost never counter-vents), then time it so that you have full flux capacity to dump when enemy is about to overload. This is what a HB Wolf has to do vs Enforcer, for example. Though in a better scenario, you build up flux mostly with other weapons, and use HB only for flux regen overflow, like 2 Railgun + 2 HB Medusa.
On the other hand there is nothing you could smartly exploit about Pulse Laser - it's lackluster through and through.
IMO that's not really exploiting the the actual weapon, but rather just a property of those specific ships. I would say wolf/medusa (under player control) can exploit their mobility systems to mitigate flux war inferiority by venting safely on demand, so they can choose the higher damage output weapon and not worry about the flux stats too much (under player control). But you can just as easily use teleport+venting shenanigans with pulse laser to overcome flux inferiority too, it's just less often necessary because you have better efficiency to begin with. Maybe you could argue HBs lower rate of fire makes it a bit more bursty, but I don't think that's a huge factor.
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I suppose one "fix" for Pulse Laser is to gut elite Point Defense, so that it has less than +100 range and that Pulse Laser has more range, or replace the range bonus with something else.
The only reason I used Pulse Laser over IR PLs before the advent of elite Point Defense was range superiority. Today, IR PL (and Ion Cannon) with ePD+IPDAI has range (and efficiency) superiority over Pulse Laser (and every other non-beam medium energy weapon) and getting elite Point Defense (to boost a wide variety of weapons) is so worth it. Even if IR PLs and Ion Cannons (and Railguns) get distracted by missiles at times, that is more often than not a good thing because it prevents hits on shield (or on the ship if it has no shield). Occasionally, I have taken ePD+IPDAI Ion Cannons over Ion Pulser when range was more important, especially when matching ranges for AI ships.
Aside, IPDAI AMBs do not get distracted by missiles, but they still get the bonus range from ePD. Handy for Ziggurat as a poor-man's AMSRM substitute (although I think IR PLs are better than AMBs because IPDAI IR PL spam will supplement motes pick off fighters, mines, and other missiles that will force Z to stay phased for too long to dodge when they overwhelm motes alone or while motes are away zapping a bigger fish).