Interesting, and it starts to help with my perennial issue with hyperspace travel: that it's become a nuisance minigame that you can't opt out of, but where most of the time doing 'well' just means you had less of a penalty from storms knocking you off-course, slipstreams crossing your path, etc. (Surfing storms is neat, I'll give that - but it's also ruinously expensive unless you've explicitly invested in solar shielding on every ship in your fleet. Which can be fun sometimes, but most of the time I want other hullmods for when I actually get where I'm going.)
Having 'scan hyperspace for bonus points' and 'go really fast for bonus points' should help some.
But the problem with slipstreams as currently implemented is that 95% of the time, if I'm in hyperspace, I have a specific goal in mind, and a time-limit because mission timers, bounty timers, etc. I can't really plan around shifting slipstreams because I'm going where I'm going regardless of where they are - so every once in a blue moon they help, and the rest of the time they're just in the way.
Now, if you had something like "mark up to five missions as priority missions and their timer doesn't count down while they're marked"? Then you could actually plan an expedition, do other stuff while waiting for slipstreams to line up, and actually take advantage of the system.
Very Very cool. So if I got everything right, you get these bonuses and they're permanent? Except the last part when you just get an item to sell ofc.
Btw I'm surprised at the scope of this update, seems like it'll be a huge one.
But the problem with slipstreams as currently implemented is that 95% of the time, if I'm in hyperspace, I have a specific goal in mind, and a time-limit because mission timers, bounty timers, etc. I can't really plan around shifting slipstreams because I'm going where I'm going regardless of where they are - so every once in a blue moon they help, and the rest of the time they're just in the way.
Most colonies will have 10~ ly of detection but how often are missions going to send the player out towards their planets?
Slipstream detection is the most exciting part for me. It adds another factor to count with when choosing a planet to colonise. Very good!
I love your blogs and updates. Thank you for everything.
. when you find something neat and scan it, the game will acknowledge that
Sorry for my newbie question and confusion. Is this new content that is going to be added in the next release?
Thank you
SpoilerI totally agree with the idea of "you can have info on things you can't always have a control on" for the use of the sensor array and adding some cool effects to the gameplay and explorations.
The system looks promising as to rewarding the player for progressing through this event while makingit near impossible to broke the grinding / reward aspect. The bonuses looks really neat and the reward data can make an occasionally bonus in credits to help progressing while not having your full little developped empire comprised of full size 6 colonies ! =) (because when you can get about 500 000 credits each month nothing can stop you lol !) Not overpowered but usefull nonetheless !
As for the slipstream as themselves, i think that gameplay wise and lore wise (as we know it for now) they shouldn't be things we can manipulate at our will, more like a universe size natural forces you can use at your advantage in some degre but still dangerous and annoying when in your way (because humans aren't god do they ?)
But i wouldn't be surprised as if the hypershunts could be more numerous in the future and used to create temporarly guided slipstreams between systems like the actual gates are jump points between themselves.
Well i'm just letting my mind getting carried away ! But still that's a promising update that will come ! And not just talking about the hyperspace topography ! It looks like you've got way more ideas to test with your Event mechanic and i'm happy to see this game growing again and again !
Anyway fellow captains i'm on my way to another exploration !
Burn bright fellow starfarers ![close]
Seems like an interesting idea to push them further but I'll be honest Alex, I think at the end of the day I'm still not going to be using them much. As others have pointed out, they will often not align with the departure point nor the destination of the quests, and I'm not going to choose a bounty over another just because I know which directional stream season is going on at the moment, as other factors such as the payout and the particulars of the mission are much more important. As for the lategame stuff, ever since slipstreams were added to the game I felt that they should have been visible at all times on the map in order for them to get some use. The later rewards of this event helps a bit to make them get close to that, but I feel that by the time the colony stuff starts to make a difference I'll already be over the exploration side of the game and will have transitioned to using gates. All in all, I'll reserve final judgment to when I actually play this update and I hope to be wrong about this.
In regards to using an "event" in such a manner, I have zero oppositions to the approach. I feel like it's a fun way to motivate the player to do all sorts of things and I'm looking forward to seeing this being applied in other parts of the game/reward systems. Small question though, can multiple events be occurring at the same time? Like multiple crises or something?
Quote. when you find something neat and scan it, the game will acknowledge that
That's a huge one for me! Exploration is (besides combat) my favorit part of the game, so it's great that it get's more structure.
And you didn't mention the most obvious reason why unlocking these options via the event system is a good idea: growth is fun!
Regarding slipstrean usefulness: it would be neat if you could sort of catapult yourself out of a stream after building up momentum, and then continue sliding in the chosen direction for a good long while at high speed/fuel efficiency and being protected from storms. Maybe just by activating emergency burn at the right time in the stream? In practice that would much increase the area that you can conveniently reach with a slipstream.
ooohhhhhh, those new icons are lovely!It probably works the same way as the existing max burn bonuses - i. e., it's not doubled and doesn't do anything for your "slow" speed. Navigation is the only bonus that gives more with Sustained Burn on, and it explicitly says it does that rather than being the general rule.
also hmmm, it wasn't too clear in the post - does hyperfield optimisation increase the normal speed limit to 23, or does it bump your current max burn up by 3? (for a +4/+8 speed increase w/ navigation)
Regarding slipstrean usefulness: it would be neat if you could sort of catapult yourself out of a stream after building up momentum, and then continue sliding in the chosen direction for a good long while at high speed/fuel efficiency and being protected from storms. Maybe just by activating emergency burn at the right time in the stream? In practice that would much increase the area that you can conveniently reach with a slipstream.
I'd have to think about that, that's an interesting idea. Getting the physics to work right/in a satisfying way could be a bit involved.
(Fun fact: I've got this idea for making short slipstreams with a huge speed (like, 500-1000 burn), sort of like "gates" that boost you. This actually works if you do it in-game; might add this in at some later point. I remember even trying to make a chain of relay gates this way, spacing them so that by the time you slow down, the next gate picks you up - and it totally works!)
*cough* hyperdrive (https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=17157.0) *cough*Regarding slipstrean usefulness: it would be neat if you could sort of catapult yourself out of a stream after building up momentum, and then continue sliding in the chosen direction for a good long while at high speed/fuel efficiency and being protected from storms. Maybe just by activating emergency burn at the right time in the stream? In practice that would much increase the area that you can conveniently reach with a slipstream.
I'd have to think about that, that's an interesting idea. Getting the physics to work right/in a satisfying way could be a bit involved.
(Fun fact: I've got this idea for making short slipstreams with a huge speed (like, 500-1000 burn), sort of like "gates" that boost you. This actually works if you do it in-game; might add this in at some later point. I remember even trying to make a chain of relay gates this way, spacing them so that by the time you slow down, the next gate picks you up - and it totally works!)
I'd have to think about that, that's an interesting idea. Getting the physics to work right/in a satisfying way could be a bit involved.
(Fun fact: I've got this idea for making short slipstreams with a huge speed (like, 500-1000 burn), sort of like "gates" that boost you. This actually works if you do it in-game; might add this in at some later point. I remember even trying to make a chain of relay gates this way, spacing them so that by the time you slow down, the next gate picks you up - and it totally works!)
With all this extra efficiency from coming Hyperspace Topography, Auxiliary Fuel Tanks hullmod and the idea of needing colonies to support exploration, it's too easy to have enough fuel capacity even without tankers to basically have near unlimited range. I propose the base fuel use should be raised somewhat to encouraging planning and to make tankers useful again.
With all this extra efficiency from coming Hyperspace Topography, Auxiliary Fuel Tanks hullmod and the idea of needing colonies to support exploration, it's too easy to have enough fuel capacity even without tankers to basically have near unlimited range. I propose the base fuel use should be raised somewhat to encouraging planning and to make tankers useful again.Honestly I think having to carry around purely logistical ships feels like a nuisance, but I understand their necessity to balance out ship size against fleet size. I don't feel the need to make tankers more useful, consider that they are the only practical option for hauling commercial amounts of AM fuel, they are also nice for raiding for when a bombardment comes in handy. Anyway how are you so sure fuel management will become near non-factor with the announced changes? If you're coming from the PoV of a Containment Procedures user, I guess near unlimited range would be the intended effect.
(As a total aside, I will say it one more time: this progress bar system is going places, so I hope you're prepared to make another dozen iterations. :D People are going to clamor for it to be used for Combat ("Combat XP!" "Split off Combat Skills from the main skill system!" "The more you fight the more Combat Skills you get!" etc), for Trade, for dealing with Factions, for campaign events, endgame scenarios...the list goes on and on. I think it has the potential to do some really cool things in the game, assuming of course, you want to spend the time on it!)One caveat I had when Alex announced the usage of event trackers in Hostile Activity was that the player might get overwhelmed by too many of them. A fact I didn't emphasize enough last time is that the computer is obviously doing the tracking here, making them less of a burden on the player and more of a feedback mechanism. But I can imagine an overanalytical player getting committed to making numbers go up instead of taking the tracker as just an indicator of progress, as Alex noted in this blog post. Seeing how players reacted to the bonus xp mechanic I'm skeptical about players not finding a way to turn events into chores, but we'll see. An obvious solution would then be to make events less directly influenceable by the player. Alternatively, the tracker could be hidden from the player, but that's obviously hard to implement if the intention is to entice the player with beneficial goalposts.
With all this extra efficiency from coming Hyperspace Topography, Auxiliary Fuel Tanks hullmod and the idea of needing colonies to support exploration, it's too easy to have enough fuel capacity even without tankers to basically have near unlimited range. I propose the base fuel use should be raised somewhat to encouraging planning and to make tankers useful again.
2. Current slipstream can grab player fleet and drag it soomwhere faraway and die. It leads to behaviour, oh here is a slipstream I need to cross, then I must quicksave!Emergency burn... I never had to save because of a slipstream. I am careful with my supplies and fuel and return sooner rather than later so that I do not lose my fleet and thus crossing 2 slipstreams with emergency burn is not a big deal for me.
Speaking more in general, top down 2d games always struggle to have interesting movement systems. I can think of very few where movement is actually a main appeal, it mostly serves to connect other game elements to each other. That is of course in sharp contrast to side-scrolling 2d games, where movement is often the core mechanic. Why is that, I wonder?The really interesting thing here is that Starsector does have interesting movement mechanics... in the context of maneuvering within a single star system, if you disable sustained burn.
First, I enjoy the hints of the gameplay theme Volatiles represent. I was hoping there will be another reason to carry around Volatiles than just for the gimmicky* Neutrino Detector, but seeing as Neutrino Burst is an option anchored to a sensor array it won't necessarily be the case (as you can just pick up stashed Volatiles at your nearest colony). Regardless, Volatiles being the substrate for AMF production as well as a resource for exploration abilities hints at an intriguing ludonarrative theme, if you catch my drift...
Second, happy to finally see some reason to check on fellow scavengers :P Still some way to go before developing a reputation for being nosy around strangers in hyperspace becomes a thing, but a welcome step forward regardless.
Aside from that, definitely didn't expect to see the event tracker be utilized like this. But hey, so long as Starsector doesn't turn into a vertical barcode I'm not complaining about abusing them... For science!
You can just remove some later if they start to ruin immersion, right? :^
ooohhhhhh, those new icons are lovely!
also hmmm, it wasn't too clear in the post - does hyperfield optimisation increase the normal speed limit to 23, or does it bump your current max burn up by 3? (for a +4/+8 speed increase w/ navigation)
I can tell I'm going to fall in love with these events - it's just such a nice, clean gameplay interface for 'a long-term thing is happening, you'll want to keep an eye on that'. Lots of gameplay potential, lots of modding potential, and a nice antidote to predictable optimization routines, the bane of a sense of adventure.
these dev blog posts are always a treat. generally speaking, they're not the kind of thing I'd usually be interested in when it comes to other games, but it's like your passion really comes through in these and it makes for a fun read every time
as far as these future changes go, I'm very excited for them. the janus device was already quite a helpful solution for late-game hyperspace repetitiveness issues, but coupled with these plans, and all the other interesting little things like hyperspace ghosts, we're probably getting very close to the point where hyperspace travel will no longer be seen as a chore at all. it's a great idea all around, I'm looking forward to seeing it in action
What about tying the event system into other skills or giving other skills their events? Crew Training and Cybernetic Augmentation come to mind.
Also there's an idea about some sort of codebreaking event.
I rather like the idea of the old-fashioned sailor, waiting on the wind and tides, but in this case, waiting is just holding the shift key for ten to fifteen minutes straight. Not only is that expensive in supplies, it's also incredibly boring. It's what I'll have to do if I depend on slipstreams.
So what can be done to ameliorate this? I think some method of waiting with reduced supply cost would be nice.
The mini super slipstreams sound like a fun idea, and perhaps that could be expanded with late game tech to be able to create them with an appropriately significant cost, and maybe a limited maximum amount. Being able to create them at the far reaches by your colonies sounds like a great way to improve mobility using the mini slipstream booster idea, and another way to add investment in your colonies as well as another goal to work towards. It'd also play into your idea of spreading colonies around if you can make it easier to travel between long distance colonies with these booster slipstreams.
Since Hyperspace lanes move items between long distances and, would it be possible for them to slowly trickle in new things from "outside" of the playable area (explanation wise) so you'd still be able to find domain relics in places you might have previously explored, or perhaps in a certain general area that was very close to a hyperspace lane. This could also be something that could be used to boost the progress for the bar as you're investigating anomalous activities along the routes.
That way you'd still have that exploration open to you, and hey maybe you might find something else in the area as well. [REDACTED], pirates that are out of fuel (hence got drawn into a solar system with the domain relics as well as they dropped out of the hyperspace lane), luddics etc. Could even introduce some random but very cool unique event/boss this way (or story stuff due to plot reasons as not to spoil things).
That is one big downside. Once you've been to all of the systems you're sort of done. Afterwards you can get things only from missions that spawn domain objects.
Hype! I think this will go a long way toward making exploration and travel more interesting. Having more visibility over slipstreams will be great, and it seems like the topography discovery stuff will be very curiosity inducing! Do you plan to eventually make those award xp the way other discovery types do? (maybe they do and it just doesn't show up in the screenshot)
*cough* hyperdrive (https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=17157.0) *cough*
A very unexpected, but very welcome/cool blog post! I'm glad you're trying the progress system on a low-risk mechanic that still has good QoL improvements without (hopefully) cheese tactics. This system feels very natural and you don't have to go out of your way to really earn it, though I do like that you can be intentional about it and earn it faster if you want.
There are some interesting bread crumbs in all of this, namely, incentivizing colonies in multiple systems. While I don't think having a wider knowledge of slipstream patterns will be a decisive factor for whether or not I colonize a different system, this is a step in the right direction. I like the idea of claiming multiple sensor arrays having an effect on all colonies within a radius. Other similar mechanics could encourage spreading out more. Going "tall" (using a 4x term) of stacking all your colonies in one system for defense is a viable strategy but going "wide" should also have its perks.
Regarding slipstreams themselves: I like them when they work for me but I really dislike them when they don't. When the slipstreams are going in the opposite direction, there sometimes isn't any other recourse except to cross them and its frustrating when you're pulled off track so much. I wouldn't mind another hyperspace skill unlock that would allow "fording" of a slipstream. Sort of like a warp bubble that prevents slipstream effects for like 3 seconds with a cooldown of 10 seconds. Maybe it has a cost (Volatiles?) but E-burning through slipstreams can be very costly in supplies if you don't have the Industry skill. Alternatively, if you enter a slipstream at a near-perpendicular angle, the slipstream current doesn't kick in immediately (1 second?) The delay would allow you to cross narrow/fast slipstreams almost entirely without getting pulled in the wrong direction for 10 LY. Perhaps this feature is mutually exclusive with Sustained Burn.
The slipstreams are cool but when it comes to usability it is quite lacklustre, in fact sometimes more of an annoyance particularly when your destination is being barred off due to a slipstream forcing you to emergency burn through it or just try going through it, with these small features we can have a bit more control over our exploration. Now the neutrino detector is more of an early game strategy and slipstreams can beexploitedused to our advantage.
(As a total aside, I will say it one more time: this progress bar system is going places, so I hope you're prepared to make another dozen iterations. :D People are going to clamor for it to be used for Combat ("Combat XP!" "Split off Combat Skills from the main skill system!" "The more you fight the more Combat Skills you get!" etc), for Trade, for dealing with Factions, for campaign events, endgame scenarios...the list goes on and on. I think it has the potential to do some really cool things in the game, assuming of course, you want to spend the time on it!)
It's cool to see these concepts come to life. You guys are legends and are pumping these ideas out like crazy. Can't wait to see what else you have in store.
After reading this, the first thing that came to my mind is the potential new Crew/Marines/Pilots experience system separate from the Trading/Inventory system, which from my understanding being coupled to it was the main drawback of the earlier EXP system.
I'll be honest: none of the "think where you place your colonies" mechanics ever managed to make me actually consider where I place my colonies - extra Industry is superfluous, faster population growth with Cryosleepers is a very minor QoL which becomes obsolete once your colony reaches max size anyway, and I can't see myself putting down colonies just to know where the Slipstreams are either.
But hey, I'll gladly take +3 burn speed in Hyperspace and some extra money from Topographic Data, thankyouverymuch
Someone mentioned reduced supply use when waiting around and i think that's a nice idea. I mean it makes sense right? Ships would probably require less maintenance if you are only running the barest minimum or something. Kinda like go dark... but darker?
With all this extra efficiency from coming Hyperspace Topography, Auxiliary Fuel Tanks hullmod and the idea of needing colonies to support exploration, it's too easy to have enough fuel capacity even without tankers to basically have near unlimited range. I propose the base fuel use should be raised somewhat to encouraging planning and to make tankers useful again.
Speaking more in general, top down 2d games always struggle to have interesting movement systems. I can think of very few where movement is actually a main appeal, it mostly serves to connect other game elements to each other. That is of course in sharp contrast to side-scrolling 2d games, where movement is often the core mechanic. Why is that, I wonder?
Gravity, momentum? Top downs often have both. What comes to mind as typically for side scrollers is challenging interaction with barriers, specifically their influence on player momentum. Using walls, ramps and enemies skillfully to accelerate instead of being slowed down by them is much of the fun.
I recently tried the mobile game DATA WING, which is one of these rare worthwhile movement based top downs. You race around a course, and here it kind of works because closing in with the course barriers just so gives you a speed boost.Spoiler(https://aweapps.com/images/rail_grinding.gif)[close]
That all means to say: Yeah - it would be fantastic to have more controllable momentum changing environmental interaction during travel, it actually seems the key to a fun movement system. Like the gate slipstreams you describe. I also think hyperspace storms offer potential, if you could just predict/influence the direction they throw you in and maybe chain them together somehow.
I have to say, you always blow me away with the ideas and upcoming features. When I get notification that a new blog post just dropped I have to read it as soon as I can, because I know it's going to be great. Event system sounds amazing and will really motivate me to explore even more!
As for colony placement, as long as a system needs multiple bases to repel invasions without babysitting from the player, and we have gates for travel, I do not see new features encouraging spreading colonies wide.
(Why do I specify 'if you disable sustained burn'? Because it makes hostile fleets move too fast; an enemy fleet with sustained burn running can close from offscreen to oops-you're-detected in very short order - and if you're trying to be sneaky, this is almost always a no-win situation: there's no option you can take to remain sneaky; you lose because RNG decided you lose. I think that, overall, the game would benefit from removing sustained burn, and replacing it with the ability to toggle up to 4x increased timeflow rather than 2x. ...For that matter, does anybody ever toggle the 2x timeflow option off? I know I don't.)
This breaks down in hyperspace, though, because nobody enforces transponder-on (a good thing, as being required to be transponder-on in hyperspace would be terrible if you were hostile with any of the major factions), and because there's no rewards for good play. In a star system, that 'good play' reward might be something like 'you snuck into Chicomoztoc with your transponder off, and can now buy the rare XIV-variant onslaught on the black market without getting every patrol in-system up your grill' - but there's no hyperspace equivalent.
...You know what hyperspace needs? Buried treasure. Places like the Alpha Site that you can find by, I dunno, following sensor ghosts or something? Nothing with quite the Alpha Site's level of rewards, of course, but a lost and lonely planet with some salvageable ruins, perhaps? (Though, hm. Would need something to mark such planets as non-colonizeable.)
How much time you have to react is the same, but what reactions you have available is very much not. Without sustained burn in the equation, you'd be looking at them coming in at a leisurely burn 9 - let's assume a fast patrol here - which you can attempt to dodge with your running-dark fleet at burn 7. (Why, yes, I do consider the Sensors skill to be a vastly better pick than Navigation.)(Why do I specify 'if you disable sustained burn'? Because it makes hostile fleets move too fast; an enemy fleet with sustained burn running can close from offscreen to oops-you're-detected in very short order - and if you're trying to be sneaky, this is almost always a no-win situation: there's no option you can take to remain sneaky; you lose because RNG decided you lose. I think that, overall, the game would benefit from removing sustained burn, and replacing it with the ability to toggle up to 4x increased timeflow rather than 2x. ...For that matter, does anybody ever toggle the 2x timeflow option off? I know I don't.)
(Wouldn't you be in *exactly the same situation*, then? S-burn off, 4x time = basically the same real-world timings. You might say you'd be running at 2x time, but you know that you wouldn't actually be! :D)
How much time you have to react is the same, but what reactions you have available is very much not. Without sustained burn in the equation, you'd be looking at them coming in at a leisurely burn 9 - let's assume a fast patrol here - which you can attempt to dodge with your running-dark fleet at burn 7. (Why, yes, I do consider the Sensors skill to be a vastly better pick than Navigation.)
Compare that to trying to dodge when they're coming in at burn 18 to your 7, and it's not even a contest.
Oh right, thanks for answering and clearing this up! Didn't think of it like this. So yeah, finally a motivation to start playing with the Detector :D It's also a neat teaser for the design space concerning overworld objectives that I'm sure you'll continue exploring. Wondering if popping-up objectives for their abilities ever becomes a thing...First, I enjoy the hints of the gameplay theme Volatiles represent. I was hoping there will be another reason to carry around Volatiles than just for the gimmicky* Neutrino Detector, but seeing as Neutrino Burst is an option anchored to a sensor array it won't necessarily be the case (as you can just pick up stashed Volatiles at your nearest colony). Regardless, Volatiles being the substrate for AMF production as well as a resource for exploration abilities hints at an intriguing ludonarrative theme, if you catch my drift...
Since you can build or find an array in just about any system, I think it'd make sense to carry some around!
Why do I specify 'if you disable sustained burn'? Because it makes hostile fleets move too fast; an enemy fleet with sustained burn running can close from offscreen to oops-you're-detected in very short order - and if you're trying to be sneaky, this is almost always a no-win situation: there's no option you can take to remain sneaky; you lose because RNG decided you lose. I think that, overall, the game would benefit from removing sustained burn, and replacing it with the ability to toggle up to 4x increased timeflow rather than 2x. ...For that matter, does anybody ever toggle the 2x timeflow option off? I know I don't.
With all these event things popping up, could you also make events for player actions? For example, if the player consistently saturation bombards faction worlds, they would have events that would send a hit fleet against the player, big fleets defending core worlds that won't chase the player far away and annoying fast scouts that stalks the player (not letting the player be too close or too far away) as they move around the core world. If player colonies uses lots of AI cores in their colonies, they might be contacted by Tri-Tachyon to have some kind of deal behind hegemony's back. Maybe a 'person of interest' meter that rises as the player's kill count increases and they establish colonies where the player's actions get increasingly more weighty (get more rep for the same actions).Yes please!
With all these event things popping up, could you also make events for player actions? For example, if the player consistently saturation bombards faction worlds, they would have events that would send a hit fleet against the player, big fleets defending core worlds that won't chase the player far away and annoying fast scouts that stalks the player (not letting the player be too close or too far away) as they move around the core world.I like for them to declare total war and fight all out if they can, or if they cannot (because I am winning after beating them down), then surrender or be wiped off the map. And for Indies to get out of the way of a total war - don't take sides during a total war when both sides are attempting to kill each other's planets via sat bombs.
Every time I use a slipstream I end up getting ganked by pirates or luddics, so I don't bother any more and I probably won't bother even with this new stuff. Its easy enoughto just cart around enough fuel to get everywhere and credits are meaningless outside the mega early game. Useful for new players? Maybe, or it gets them stuck in deep space since they can't rely on the half fuel indicator.
I can't speak to sneaky espionage problems caused by enemy fleets running SB but, for my part, the only time I ever toggle double time flow on is when I hit Shift+M4 to activate my transverse jump. By contrast, I use SB all the time.
I'd have no problem with Alex adding an option to change how much the shift key increases time flow but, if my only options were "crawl along at regular speed" or "the entire world zooms about like a crack-addled space monkey," I'd consider that a pretty significant step back from how things stand now.
With all these event things popping up, could you also make events for player actions? For example, if the player consistently saturation bombards faction worlds, they would have events that would send a hit fleet against the player, big fleets defending core worlds that won't chase the player far away and annoying fast scouts that stalks the player (not letting the player be too close or too far away) as they move around the core world. If player colonies uses lots of AI cores in their colonies, they might be contacted by Tri-Tachyon to have some kind of deal behind hegemony's back. Maybe a 'person of interest' meter that rises as the player's kill count increases and they establish colonies where the player's actions get increasingly more weighty (get more rep for the same actions).
Alex, I see your reluctance to allow use slipstream as two way highway.
I dont understand why?
the main problem of current system is, slips are perceived as nuisance more than positive.
in my last game I used slips intentionally for travel about 3 times per whole game walkthru. Other cases I traveled by slips was not intentional disasters, when I needed to load quick-save again. (it swallowed me and drag over a half universe)
As feedback, the ability for colonies to reveal nearby slipstreams is going to be an almost negligible incentive to split colonies up in far flung locations for me. It's not going to overcome the various game factors which push me towards putting them all in one spot (ease of dropping off colony items and cores, easier defense either via patrols or simply getting back via gate to intercept, building up contacts all in one system over time, distant from core for export profits), especially with the gate network being available mid to late game. Primary consideration for me these days is there a gate in system or a nearby system, since so much of the campaign map interaction is spent just traveling. Slipstreams are just too random and unreliable.
Actually, I would hypothesize even with full slipstream information, I still wouldn't end up using them that much. I should try playing a campaign run through with the entire slipstream network visible at all times, and see how much I take advantage of them in my traveling, maybe recording the number of light years spent traveling by stream vs normal hyperspace or gate travel. I don't suppose there's a travel log mod which records your lightyears traveled and how? If I had to guess in my current games (with imperfect knowledge), less than 10% of my light years traveled are via slipstream (in a useful direction), whereas gate travel is probably around 50% of my light years travelled late game (and can reach 100% gate travel if I've got a gate in my colonies and a gate in a remnant system and I'm farming cores for some reason). As it is, I don't find myself using the neutrino detector in hyperspace, as simply fully zoomed out and unchained view catches a fair bit.
Also, if you want slipstreams to factor into planning, they should be available via toggle on intel maps just like fuel range, both the main intel map and those which are used when agreeing to missions from contacts. As it is right now, if you want to see if you know of slip stream in that direction, it's 2-3 key presses every single time to get to the main map when accepting a contract, and it means flipping back and forth between the intel and main maps when plotting a long looping trip. Essentially, there is a fair bit of UI friction to plotting a trip with slipstreams if you have any sort of mission objectives.
Like if you could build a beacon that ensured one of those slip stream generating hyperspace mysteries was waiting outside the system every few months, summoned not unlike a sandworm by a thumper on Dune
This game just gets bigger and bigger all the time, I love it, though I do wish our more outlandish setups (the modded playthroughs) had a bit more headroom in regards to general performance though. At the moment it feels like the biggest hit to your system is going into hyperspace when you have more than 2-3 modded factions.
Tangentially-related, have you found anything to do with those 'hyperspace whirlpools' yet? I could certainly see it as an interesting way to spice up exploration, have them randomly occur on certain star classes (supergiants, black holes and the likes), to add a little bit more intrigue to hyperspace outside the attrition of storms and the chance encounter with a scavenger super-fleet that dearly wants your scrap, willing or not.
Heck, even as a way to throw you into a random system in that constellation would be interesting (or introducing new sources of transverse jump points on the sector map).
I hadn't really thought about it, hmm. The main problem with exploration XP - especially for this - is that exploration is mostly linear, while XP required to level up is extremely not. So that just makes finding meaningful XP values for exploration things difficult.
After reading this, the first thing that came to my mind is the potential new Crew/Marines/Pilots experience system separate from the Trading/Inventory system, which from my understanding being coupled to it was the main drawback of the earlier EXP system.... oh! Oh. That's very interesting. The main problem with crew XP was just the *enormous* hassle of keeping track of multiple crew types, anywhere crew is used. So yeah, this could potentially abstract away from that, but then it's basically just "an additional bonus/parallel XP bar" which... it could be interesting, depending on what the contributing factors are and what the incentives are and so on. Larger topic and I haven't really thought it through, but: neat idea, thank you for bringing it up!
A large part of the fun, though, is also what you're actually doing. Sneaking around in a star system full of Redacted and picking it clean without getting in trouble is already fun, regardless of any second-to-second fun from just the movement system itself. Fundamentally, I think you need gameplay with risk and reward and so on - the movement system taken in isolation being fun is great, but I think that's kind of parallel enhancer to the other stuff needed to make it fun, not a requirement or a solution for it being fun/not fun, if you know what I mean? It's part of why slipstreams cut down on fuel use so much; "using fuel" is the fundamental cost of going through hyperspace and "doing it well" seems like it should involve reducing the fuel cost.
Consume an item "feels like a bit much for the player to be able to do" ? WHAT ? Please, count the number of keyes which player MUST control at one moment in battle, it is about 20! Well, an average earthling has only 10 fingers. Then you say that consume one rare item is too much ?I see your reluctance to allow use slipstream as two way highway.
I dont understand why?
the main problem of current system is, slips are perceived as nuisance more than positive.
Could you, at least, make this: use the item Hyperspace Topology data for changing slip orientation ?
e.i. when you are in the stream and use the item Hyperspace Topology data item, then slip changes the flow.
in my last game I used slips intentionally for travel about 3 times per whole game walkthru.
Your suggestion is interesting, but I think it's unnecessary; I think if you play around with them while having a more complete understanding of how they work, you would find them more useful than you have so far. And, hopefully one of the additions here - ways of making slipstreams visible on the map - will help players get a better understanding.
And, finally, even if I wanted to make slipstreams still more useful (which, currently: no), I'm not sure about the "feel" of reversing their direction. That feels like a bit much for the player to be able to do.
Perhaps make an in-game metric system which measure and send back to dev data about usage of features could bring light into area. Perhaps simple measure of lenght_travel_in_slip, lenght travel in hyper cload, lenght travel in dark mode, lenght_travel_with_Shift_pressed could give developer an idea how the game is actually played. Current hyper_space travel is not fun, and incoming features are not going to change it. Just saying.Well, yes it could. It would also need resources I think are pretty much out of scope. Don't forget we're talking about a very indie game that likely won't be getting any significant updates post-release, not an MMO. Do you really think developing a script like this is worth the effort?
Also, make a metric how many keyes and how often are pressed in combat could bring some QOL improvements.
If you only benefit from the XP in early game, that seem OK, too - after all it's way more challenging to discover stuff with you early game frigat than your late game exploration fleet.
This idea could finally be a great way to make you want to keep your poor crew alive: loosing crew should also subtract from the crew XP bar. You might be easily replacing warm bodies, but not their experience!
One niche (but nice for world building) effect of experienced crew might be that they are loyal and can keep their mouths shut when on shore leave: your "transponder off" combat encounters have less influence on faction relations. Your smuggling suspicion doesn't increase as fast. New bar encounters are possible. They go on longer without pay.
I'm against combat bonuses from crew, I think there are more than enough factors that influence your combat stats.
Yeah, I hear you. Then again, as long as long stretches were "nothing happens" exist, the movement system will have to stand on its own on a regular basis. The worst emptiness-offender is not even hyperspace though, but big empty systems. Some interesting movement could be applied here too: Raising a solar sail (ability) near the sun to be blown into the system fringe (aka "make your own pulsar but without the hurt")? Using a planet's gravity well to slingshot yourself through the system? Maybe a jump points acts like a pinball bumper if you don't go trough?
Consume an item "feels like a bit much for the player to be able to do" ?
Knowing which direction the streams flow is also mostly pointless; it's not a factor to count in when picking up missions or bounties.
I just remembered but hyperspace slipstreams have a roughly predictable cycle on what times you can find them on a cardinal direction yes? Would it be possible to add this information to either intel or UI? It's a very wide and predictable estimate so it might fit nicely on one of the earlier stages of the topography event.
Talking about topography would it be possible to make deep hyperspace a bit more noticeable on the minimap thing? Sometimes i feel like it blends a bit too well with everything else.
I like the general direction of these additions, but I do feel like this kinda steps on the toes of the skill system. It sort of brings into question why a lot of benefits are given through the skill system and not through this system. I think there's definitely a place for both the skill tree and the event stuff, but I would like it if there was more of an explicit philosophy behind why effects are put in one vs the other.
To me it feels like 'QOL' type stuff, and small numerical benefits make sense for the event system, while skills could be more about big run-altering stuff. I like that the event system lets you get the all QOL stuff you want which I think is valuable.
Actually, I would hypothesize even with full slipstream information, I still wouldn't end up using them that much. I should try playing a campaign run through with the entire slipstream network visible at all times, and see how much I take advantage of them in my traveling, maybe recording the number of light years spent traveling by stream vs normal hyperspace or gate travel. I don't suppose there's a travel log mod which records your lightyears traveled and how? If I had to guess in my current games (with imperfect knowledge), less than 10% of my light years traveled are via slipstream (in a useful direction), whereas gate travel is probably around 50% of my light years travelled late game (and can reach 100% gate travel if I've got a gate in my colonies and a gate in a remnant system and I'm farming cores for some reason). As it is, I don't find myself using the neutrino detector in hyperspace, as simply fully zoomed out and unchained view catches a fair bit.
Honestly? If it's at 10% while not having good info on their placement and after 50% from gates, then that's not bad at all.
I'm curious about zooming out and panning around, though; at 1650x1080 and max default zoom, it doesn't even come close to letting you see beyond the radar (which shows all slipstreams in range), let alone the range of the Neutrino Detector - which several times that? It's 10 light-years.
Yeah, I hear you. Then again, as long as long stretches were "nothing happens" exist, the movement system will have to stand on its own on a regular basis. The worst emptiness-offender is not even hyperspace though, but big empty systems. Some interesting movement could be applied here too: Raising a solar sail (ability) near the sun to be blown into the system fringe (aka "make your own pulsar but without the hurt")? Using a planet's gravity well to slingshot yourself through the system? Maybe a jump points acts like a pinball bumper if you don't go trough?
Ah! But you don't *know* that big empty system is actually empty, I think that's pretty big.
On the other hand, a solar sail and a gravity slingshot both sound like fun things! Like, a lot of fun. Hmm. Both could be initiated by interacting with the star/planet, even (so: no ability slot), though that'd break the movement flow.
Could lead to some crazy chases if the AI understands how to use it.I am firmly against anything that would allow AI fleets to come zipping in from out of sensor range even faster than they can with Sustained Burn.
(Personally, I find myself doing a few things that needed doing in the core systems if that might help "line up" the slipstreams with my current objectives. Though, yeah, whether you can do that depends on the timing of the missions you have. But if the goal is "check out this medium-danger system I spotted on the way back from the previous exploration trip"? Then yeah, sure.)This is pretty much what I do, usually - I'll look to see which way the slipstreams will be going, and then pick up exploration, survey, etc. missions in that direction, and then fart around in the Core a bit looking for extra missions in that direction while waiting for the streams to shift if they're going to.
It's "going right in the first half of the year, left in the second, and dissipating in the 6th and 12th months". And, hmm, that's an interesting idea, I'll make a note. The slipstream tooltip touches in it but doesn't actually explain the specific directions, just that it's a yearly cycle.It might help to have an "event" pop up when the slipstreams start dissipating twice a year, the way faction hostilities work? That shouldn't take up much space, and it calls attention the way an out-of-the-way note on the Intel screen won't.
Admittedly, the single volatile cost per day is pretty low for a late game low tech fleet burning 160 fuel per day (250 vs 4000?), but it does mean hitting a location that can refill volatiles regularly, which I point out waystations don't stock (perhaps they should if they're intended as exploration extenders with size 3 colonies scattered about?), so keeping topped up on volatiles adds a bit of shopping overhead, along with supplies and fuel in the late game. Or put another way, supplies and fuel are basically everywhere, volatiles are not.Transplutonics aren't, either, and those can be pretty useful too.
Interesting. I've personally thought of slipstreams as an obstacle first and I've been fine with it. But seeing this advice makes me wonder if there's something to them I missed by being too bull-headed with my exploration customs. In any case, if there's a logic that makes slipstreams significantly more useful by changing one's exploration behavior then I don't think it's been well communicated. To repeat myself, this might pan out differently with the updates. Anyway thanks for the tips ^^(Personally, I find myself doing a few things that needed doing in the core systems if that might help "line up" the slipstreams with my current objectives. Though, yeah, whether you can do that depends on the timing of the missions you have. But if the goal is "check out this medium-danger system I spotted on the way back from the previous exploration trip"? Then yeah, sure.)This is pretty much what I do, usually - I'll look to see which way the slipstreams will be going, and then pick up exploration, survey, etc. missions in that direction, and then fart around in the Core a bit looking for extra missions in that direction while waiting for the streams to shift if they're going to.
Certainly if I'm going to go look for hypershunts and bulk surveys to find a system to set up colonies in, I'm gonna try and time it so that I can take slipstreams out, explore for a few months, and then take the slipstreams back.
(Personally, I find myself doing a few things that needed doing in the core systems if that might help "line up" the slipstreams with my current objectives. Though, yeah, whether you can do that depends on the timing of the missions you have. But if the goal is "check out this medium-danger system I spotted on the way back from the previous exploration trip"? Then yeah, sure.)This is pretty much what I do, usually - I'll look to see which way the slipstreams will be going, and then pick up exploration, survey, etc. missions in that direction, and then fart around in the Core a bit looking for extra missions in that direction while waiting for the streams to shift if they're going to.
Certainly if I'm going to go look for hypershunts and bulk surveys to find a system to set up colonies in, I'm gonna try and time it so that I can take slipstreams out, explore for a few months, and then take the slipstreams back.
This idea could finally be a great way to make you want to keep your poor crew alive: loosing crew should also subtract from the crew XP bar. You might be easily replacing warm bodies, but not their experience!
One niche (but nice for world building) effect of experienced crew might be that they are loyal and can keep their mouths shut when on shore leave: your "transponder off" combat encounters have less influence on faction relations. Your smuggling suspicion doesn't increase as fast. New bar encounters are possible. They go on longer without pay.
I'm against combat bonuses from crew, I think there are more than enough factors that influence your combat stats.
Yeah, I could see that. The only thing there is that *if* I was going to bring crew XP back in some way then I'd kind of like to tie it to ships, to give them more history/personality/etc; that seems like a high-impact thing feel-wise, regardless of how minor the bonuses might be.
On the other hand, a solar sail and a gravity slingshot both sound like fun things! Like, a lot of fun. Hmm. Both could be initiated by interacting with the star/planet, even (so: no ability slot), though that'd break the movement flow.
You have natural arteries that lead almost everywhere on the map (that you can see), and smaller veins that branch off from them (that you can rarely see).
I don't suppose you would be willing to add a light years traveled option to the historian graphs? Or maybe just an odometer readout to the Hyperspace Topography progress tracker itself (You've traveled X light years in hyperspace, Y of them at burn higher than 20).
I'll note, even if you do save a bit of fuel with the detour through a distant slipstream, you are often taking longer in terms of time (both real and in game). Although I suppose another 50% factor of fuel reduction (25% effective fuel costs?) will help.
It turns out, with a dram at base burn 10 (20 sustained), travel by slipstream one way takes 15.25 days, 19 fuel and 3 supplies. Flying directly on autopilot either there or back takes 13 days, 25 fuel and ~7 supplies. Even in a perfect knowledge situation, and a slipstream with an endpoint on my destination, it is unclear in this case that the slipstream option is better. Estimate 2 days in system to do the exploration scan, then head back. Assuming you are chaining contracts, 2 days saved out of 30 on a 50,000 credit contract is roughly 3,333 credits since you can grab the next one and go, compared to the slipstream savings of 550 credits. So for a Dram exploration start knowing the slipstream is there 7 light years away does me no good. Neutrino detector usage in this case isn't worth it.
I'd think you want an ability slot, but potentially an alternative movement mode button, akin to dark or sustained burn, because you need to maintain inertia afterwards. Gravity Slingshot or Interial Dampers Off or something. You turn it on, and now your fleet burns normally plus picks up acceleration towards nearby masses, and maintains inertia much better. So as it approaches the planet it accelerates faster and faster, and then off you go as you pass over. If you make the acceleration proportional to the planet's mass, it could make gas giants natural objectives for fast travel - or even across the sun at the cost of some supplies due to the corona. Could lead to some crazy chases if the AI understands how to use it.
Ok, hear me our. *waives hands excitedly*Spoiler
Ship experience/veterancy/personality comes in form of special hullmods. They can be only picked up at certain "random" moments, which would be
- event triggered, e.g. suffering heavy losses, making in-flight refits, getting close to a black hole...
- but not reliably so, there's just a small chance for any given trigger
- overall very rare, maybe with a hidden timer after one event
- not mandatory, you can refuse to install them
- more flavorful than other hullmods, more side-grades than straight upgrades
- an, to tie it in with a crew Event system: the best of these special hullmod events only pop up if you have experienced crew
- Over a long time, a ship might even accumulate several of these hullmods, really making it unique
Some examples:SpoilerForged in Blood
The recent, traumatic battle has forged an unspoken brotherhood between the surviving crewmembers of the ISS Derringer. They ask permission to paint their hull blood red. This will set the ship behavior to reckless and increase weapon damage by 10%. Will you grant permission?[close]SpoilerOut through the backdoor
After almost losing core containment during the last fight, the chief engineer of the ISS Brazen had to come up with a rather creative solution. The flux vents are now connected through to the engine, increasing forward speed by 50% during active venting - but flaming out the ship when the flux bar is full. The changes could still be reversed - will you allow the engineer to make them permanent?[close]SpoilerThey have seen the light
After some of the external shutters failed to close, the recent dip into a solar corona has left a permanent impression on the crew of the ISS Reinhold - or rather, on their retinas. Their auto-firing accuracy has dropped by 50%, but they have taken it upon themselves to install and maintain, in their own time, almost religiously, a solar shielding variant that is twice as effective as the normal one. You could order your surgeons to replace the blinded eyes against their owners will, but that would surely rob them of the will to maintain their hull modifications. Will you let the current condition persist?[close]
Using hullmods seems both simple to understand for the player and gives a lot of storytelling opportunities. I can't think of a more straightforward alternative, at least.[close]
As a side note, tying certain hullmods to a minimum crew experience level might work for some normal, non event-related hullmods, too.
As the S key slows you down, the W key seems a good choice to make you go fast. Could call it gravity sail.
Yeah, there are definitely "corridors" of regular Hyperspace that are never marked on the main map. Maybe nearby colonies could show these as well like they will do with Slipstreams?
Ship experience/veterancy/personality comes in form of special hullmods. They can be only picked up at certain "random" moments, which would beThere are several topics about skills and S.mode issue: it is all very static. In case player want to change ship type, or size or tech, or find a new ship, or try a mission which ask for specific ship, or .... The game do not allow comfortable switch.
On the other hand, a solar sail and a gravity slingshot both sound like fun things! Like, a lot of fun. Hmm. Both could be initiated by interacting with the star/planet, even (so: no ability slot), though that'd break the movement flow.
As the S key slows you down, the W key seems a good choice to make you go fast. Could call it gravity sail.
That would make sense, wouldn't it! And the immediacy of that - even compared to an ability toggle - is nice, feel-wise. It might feel weird if AI fleets didn't do it then, though; with the ability you could handwave it as being something the player has learned etc, and have it be unlocked with a mission... hmm.
Ah! But you don't *know* that big empty system is actually empty, I think that's pretty big.
I'll note, even if you do save a bit of fuel with the detour through a distant slipstream, you are often taking longer in terms of time (both real and in game). Although I suppose another 50% factor of fuel reduction (25% effective fuel costs?) will help.
If you're going at burn 40, it'd be 12.5% effective fuel costs. *Right now*, without the change, it's 25%.
I'm not sure how it'd be more supplies for direct travel which takes less days.
Honestly, though? That it's at all competitive for the case of a Dram seems like a good sign. That's a pretty degenerate use case and it'll only be better for larger fleets with less relative fuel capacity.
Searching big systems is what Neutrino Detector is for.
Turn on sustained burn, set a waypoint a long ways off, turn on the detector and zoom in as far as it can go. Turn off mouse look. Makes it really easy to figure out which sensor spikes are moving, and thus points of interest, and which are fixed, and thus false positives.
You'll probably have big chunks of the system blotted out by the system's primary, but that just means you run a second line on the other side. Job done, system clear.
... Most of the pain is going to come from derelict systems, where you will spot the stupid probes in the middle of nowhere. If you're full up on fuel and supplies, the probes aren't going to have anything interesting - but you still need to check, because maybe it's a survey ship instead.
Just traveling from one side of a big system to another is going to take, at minimum, twelve days....
I don't suppose you would be willing to add a light years traveled option to the historian graphs? Or maybe just an odometer readout to the Hyperspace Topography progress tracker itself (You've traveled X light years in hyperspace, Y of them at burn higher than 20).
Ah, most likely not - it's interesting, but also extremely low priority given the bunch of stuff I've got to do.
As the S key slows you down, the W key seems a good choice to make you go fast. Could call it gravity sail.
That would make sense, wouldn't it! And the immediacy of that - even compared to an ability toggle - is nice, feel-wise. It might feel weird if AI fleets didn't do it then, though; with the ability you could handwave it as being something the player has learned etc, and have it be unlocked with a mission... hmm.
The S key and the "running dark" ability could be streamlined to work that way, too.
Is there a reason why an ability should not be activated with a specific key?Both slowing keys should work the same as toggle switch.
You could make it so that the ability key has to stay depressed to keep the ability active, while the ability icon is a toggle.
The S key and the "running dark" ability could be streamlined to work that way, too.
If you can't stack patrol fleets out the wazoo to stop all assault, then having all your eggs in one basket is much less appealing.Being limited to a single military base won't stop people from "single system" colonising, simply because it either lessens or ignores a ton of hassle that many players don't want to deal with as they don't find it all that fun or engaging.
The issue of S-mods seems to stem due to the fact that story points are used for a lot of things (and sometimes in monstrous quantities) yet the adquisition of them becomes increasingly scarcer overtime.For me, it is more like some sinks have insatiable appetites that can never have enough story points, namely colonies. Officers can also be a huge sink if player needs to fire all of them (if he gave them elite skills) for new ones anytime he changes the fleet and need new officers molded to their assigned ships. Those sinks offer no bonus xp, unlike s-mods.
Perhaps story points need a bit of a revision?
I agree with Serenitis. If player cannot stack bases, then player may need to stack all colonies for several patrol HQs in one system, or if that is not enough, have all systems close enough so that multiple expedition events aimed at the player are all funneled in a single general location no bigger than a constellation.If you can't stack patrol fleets out the wazoo to stop all assault, then having all your eggs in one basket is much less appealing.Being limited to a single military base won't stop people from "single system" colonising, simply because it either lessens or ignores a ton of hassle that many players don't want to deal with as they don't find it all that fun or engaging.
And each individual system not being able to defend itself so well is actually a big incentive to concentrate everything into a single system, so the player can "firefight" problems themselves and concentrate defence as much as possible by other means.
P. sure this change would have the opposite effect.
The problem is that slipstreams are, 90% of the time, not useful to the player. They run perpendicular to the paths the player tends to take, not parallel. So they are just a hassle, and there is no motivation to care about them or harness them.
Speak for yourself. I use slipstreams fairly frequently. As I said above, I generally plan my expeditions outside the Core around the stream cycle specifically to take advantage of them;
IME deep hyperspace storms are way more irritating and disruptive than slipstreams,
I kinda agree with what a lot of the posters in this thread have mentioned regarding it being hard to get streams to work in your favour and having them be a neutral influence at best most of the time. I think there are many cases where they actually result in higher fuel usage because they cut across my path of travel or they overshoot where I need to go and I need to back track so it all eats up time and fuel.As someone who uses neutrino and puts relays everywhere i can tell you you don't need to carry that many volatiles or transplutonics around compared to supplies.
Having easier detection and meaningful fuel savings will go a long way to making them actually useful so I am really looking forward to this new game mechanic. One slight downside is it's going to introduce even more pressure on Inventory storage space since we'll now have to pack a decent reserve of volatiles when we are exploring, are we going to see anything else that helps to boost storage in the next update?