Fractal Softworks Forum

Starsector => General Discussion => Topic started by: Hulkninja on July 31, 2022, 03:23:31 AM

Title: About the new "Lion's Guard" ships teased in "Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2"
Post by: Hulkninja on July 31, 2022, 03:23:31 AM
Am I correct in my interpretation that they'll just be a worse version of the already existing (except for the "Executor") ships..?

Won't that kind of defeat their purpose as "elite" units..?
I do get that they're mostly for show, but it would be nice to have a viable alternative to the seemingly far superior XIV Battlegroup variant hulls.
(As in, specifically other variant hulls, I know there are already plenty more ships which are at least as viable.)

They're described within the post as having been modified to "include blast-proof insulated paneling" with the goal being "to protect the lives of the Supreme Executor’s most loyal servants."
Yet, the hull mod is then explained to cause MORE crew casualties, thus seemingly doing the polar opposite of what it's meant to do.

It doesn't provide any other form of additional protection, either, as far as I can tell.
The ships DO get Solar Shielding, but it comes with a reduction in OP equal to what it would cost to install yourself, so it seems there's really no gain from it.

Is the Diktat really this backwards..?
Am I missing something important?
Title: Re: About the new "Lion's Guard" ships teased in "Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2"
Post by: Grievous69 on July 31, 2022, 03:36:15 AM
Am I missing something important?
Pages upon pages on the actual blog post thread where people said the same thing as you. Eventually it seems Alex listened to feedback and made some changes (which are currently unknown).
Title: Re: About the new "Lion's Guard" ships teased in "Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2"
Post by: Igncom1 on July 31, 2022, 03:39:23 AM
Seems to me they are more like a prestigious marching band than a elite fighting force, especially seeing as they don't even fight pirates the utter jobbers.  ;D

Or Rome's Praetorians who err........ aren't known for their battlefield performances but something else.
Title: Re: About the new "Lion's Guard" ships teased in "Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2"
Post by: Nimiety on July 31, 2022, 05:23:30 AM
The only benefit of built in solar shielding would be that you can build in two other logistics hullmods without hitting the cap, thats it. Were you going to do that on any warship? Probably not.

The pirates can build in a cheap augmented drive fields onto their falcon, and the pathers can build in safety overrides on everything, but the sindrians are just so incompetent they can't even do solar shielding right (despite inventing the hullmod) and they *** up the blast doors hullmod so bad it makes crew deaths go up instead of down.
Title: Re: About the new "Lion's Guard" ships teased in "Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2"
Post by: Amoebka on July 31, 2022, 05:34:10 AM
Have to drive home the point about dictatorships being bad and inefficient. How else would you know that if an indie space sim didn't teach you?
Title: Re: About the new "Lion's Guard" ships teased in "Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2"
Post by: smithney on July 31, 2022, 07:37:18 AM
The most important information you are missing is that this isn't even their final form as Grievous69 said. I'm just repeating the fact to avoid... misunderstanding.

Another important information is that these are supposed to be manned by elite officers (imagine max. level with extra elite skills, but likely not set in stone), so you can expect they are still gonna pack a punch even if the ships are built suboptimally. In addition to that, I expect that the only ship being far from its best performance would be the Executor due to... overcompensation. *nudge nudge* Afaik the other LG ships won't have to worry about being turned to overengineered Mk. II Mudskippers, neither will Executors in filthy regular SD hands.

Finally, what do you mean by "is the Diktat really this backwards"? As if you even had the chance against the best of the best of Sindria, handpicked and trained under the ever watchful eye of the Lion of Sindria himself, armed by the very best the Diktat had to offer. Try fighting them under the burning radiance of Askonia; they were born in it, molded by it. You literally won't be able to anywhere else unless you train them out to the open.



Title: Re: About the new "Lion's Guard" ships teased in "Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2"
Post by: Hulkninja on July 31, 2022, 08:40:32 AM
Am I missing something important?
Pages upon pages on the actual blog post thread where people said the same thing as you. Eventually it seems Alex listened to feedback and made some changes (which are currently unknown).

Wait... The blog posts have a comment section..?

Oh, indeed they do...

I guess this means I need to re-increase the dosage of my ADHD meds.
Seeing as I totally failed to notice this, and all...

Anyhow, thanks for helping me figure this out!
Title: Re: About the new "Lion's Guard" ships teased in "Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2"
Post by: SCC on July 31, 2022, 12:07:53 PM
Another important information is that these are supposed to be manned by elite officers (imagine max. level with extra elite skills, but likely not set in stone), so you can expect they are still gonna pack a punch even if the ships are built suboptimally.
Didn't Alex said those positions are political in nature, rather than meritocratic, leading to shiny ships being piloted by officers fit only for parades?
Title: Re: About the new "Lion's Guard" ships teased in "Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2"
Post by: FooF on July 31, 2022, 12:49:32 PM
Basically. The Lion’s Guard are yes-men that lick boots more than lead men. I wouldn’t expect them to be competent captains but more like political schemers. Perhaps some of them still have a shred of dignity but I would imagine most of the Lion’s Guard are propaganda pieces and parade fleets.
Title: Re: About the new "Lion's Guard" ships teased in "Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2"
Post by: Igncom1 on July 31, 2022, 01:00:06 PM
Yes men with untested wonder weapons in ships with unnecessary harmful modifications made by our GLORIOUS LEADER!

The non-moded ships with decent officers from the regular fleet will hit about as hard with their poorly funded forces.

The player..... the player will SLAY with those wonder weapons and can probably find builds to take advantage of the modded ships if you can't just undo them in your service.

Imagine it, just paying a 5000 credits restoration to fix the stupid mistakes and turn them into the elites they were meant to be!
Title: Re: About the new "Lion's Guard" ships teased in "Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2"
Post by: SafariJohn on July 31, 2022, 01:05:02 PM
In the current version LG has great officers. I didn't see Alex mention changing that anywhere.

I would prefer to see good LG ships with terrible officers and loadouts. I think that would better show "underlings are competent, officer corp is full of yes-men".

Benefits:
- Low skill LG officers reduces difficulty
- Rewards players with flashy, better-than-average ships and weapons
- Teaches players to isolate fleets they want to fight because Sindrian regulars have a lot better officers and loadouts
Title: Re: About the new "Lion's Guard" ships teased in "Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2"
Post by: smithney on July 31, 2022, 01:34:10 PM
Didn't Alex said those positions are political in nature, rather than meritocratic, leading to shiny ships being piloted by officers fit only for parades?
I guess, but the Diktat leadership wouldn't be so stupid as to cut them slack on training, right? :D ...Right? :^

@SafariJohn
Makes sense. Hopefully that's the direction Alex is going.
Title: Re: About the new "Lion's Guard" ships teased in "Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2"
Post by: Thaago on July 31, 2022, 01:51:03 PM
Have to drive home the point about dictatorships being bad and inefficient. How else would you know that if an indie space sim didn't teach you?

Given the reactions from people in pages and pages of comments... I think that most people don't know or willfully disbelieve the mountains of evidence.
Title: Re: About the new "Lion's Guard" ships teased in "Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2"
Post by: CrashToDesktop on July 31, 2022, 02:26:47 PM
I really liked the idea that the Lion's Guard were supposed to be a parade ground branch of the military with less-flexible ships lead by political officers rather than career captains - it speaks to the manner that Andrada runs his empire. Not every ship has to be necessarily good or have a niche in the player fleet, so I've no problem with the at-cost Solar Shielding or the Special Modifications D-Mod (the latter of which can be removed anyway).

I'm a bit disappointed that the forums bit Alex quite harshly for what, in the end, will probably be a relatively minor aspect of the game that most players won't even use themselves, and will probably influence Alex's decision-making in the future - in fact, it's already made Alex less-forthcoming in sharing his ideas. I'm also a bit disappointed that Alex bent to it instead of sticking to his guns like he has with other design decisions. In any case, something as small as this won't stop me from enjoying the game.
Title: Re: About the new "Lion's Guard" ships teased in "Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2"
Post by: SafariJohn on July 31, 2022, 02:45:53 PM
Not every ship has to be necessarily good or have a niche in the player fleet

Sadly the game does not have anywhere to show off decorative ships. For example, Tradewinds games got extra mileage out of their low-end ships by showing them in the ports.

LG ships that are meh mechanically but look cool would totally fit in some decorative section of the game like showing them flying by in port or in space. If there were multiple ships and fighters flying in formation it would be extra cool.


Have to drive home the point about dictatorships being bad and inefficient. How else would you know that if an indie space sim didn't teach you?

Given the reactions from people in pages and pages of comments... I think that most people don't know or willfully disbelieve the mountains of evidence.

The game positions the player as a hyper-competent militant dictator - kind of undercuts the "dictators bad" message. (curb player power pls)
Title: Re: About the new "Lion's Guard" ships teased in "Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2"
Post by: Igncom1 on July 31, 2022, 02:55:48 PM
I can assure you, hyper-competent does not describe me!

Even without colonies we are autocratic admirals that trade in peoples lives for money. Privateers at very, very best.
Title: Re: About the new "Lion's Guard" ships teased in "Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2"
Post by: Alex on July 31, 2022, 04:28:48 PM
I'm a bit disappointed that the forums bit Alex quite harshly for what, in the end, will probably be a relatively minor aspect of the game that most players won't even use themselves, and will probably influence Alex's decision-making in the future - in fact, it's already made Alex less-forthcoming in sharing his ideas. I'm also a bit disappointed that Alex bent to it instead of sticking to his guns like he has with other design decisions. In any case, something as small as this won't stop me from enjoying the game.

FWIW, I was concerned that'd "me bending to it" would be a possible interpretation of the changes, but it seemed worthwhile to make them for other reasons - namely, just the coolness of the sprites, and them seeing a little more action - so I went with it anyway.

I don't think the reaction "bit" me - if anything, my main emotion from seeing it is... amusement? Perhaps mixed in with a little exasperation. I think it's ironic that there's a fairly common reaction of "making Andrada a clown is shallow" that's *actually* a reaction to one's own interpretation of the post - probably driven by a certain level of naivete (or just a lack of deeper consideration) in assuming that any of this stuff needs the person in charge to be clownishly incompetent. I think some of the reaction is also driven by the somewhat tongue-in-cheek tone of the blog post, though, so I've also got to take some responsibility for that.

But anyway, going off on a tangent here. The main point is I felt zero pressure to change it from that aspect of it (if anything, negative pressure, to avoid it looking like changes were made because of it), but alongside all that stuff there were also some good points.

More on-topic, the LG ships are still generally speaking worse than baseline, though not by a lot (which I mean they never were), but now they have a bit of sidegrade potential for some possible niche uses (a ballistic slot converted to hybrid here, a built-in hullmod there).


... led by political officers rather than career captains ...

That's very much the case, yeah. The officer quality in the LG is now low.

I guess, but the Diktat leadership wouldn't be so stupid as to cut them slack on training, right? :D ...Right? :^

What would be more stupid - having a cadre of less skilled but absolutely reliable officers form what's essentially your personal guard and a nucleus around which your other, less reliable forces might rally in the event of an attempted coup, or having more qualified officers in these positions - in a fleet that's not intended to see much combat, anyway! - whose loyalties are less certain?

The big thing to remember here, also, is that we're seeing behind the curtain in terms of the LG ships being "worse". In-universe, they look impressive (and I bet the uniforms are pretty sharp too), and their performance is fine.

Andrada's special modifications are such that it makes *sense* that they would reduce crew casualties. In any given engagement, it would be easy to point to multiple cases where they saved lives. The increased losses would be harder to attribute to a specific cause - e.g. a medical team got there a bit too late, that sort of thing - and conclusively showing their net effect would require a statistical analysis of casualties in a large number of battles. Which, even if the LG took enough casualties on a regular basis to make this possible, no-one with any sense of self-preservation would undertake.

So as far as most people know in-universe, they do reduce casualties. The people that have doubts can't really prove it and have incentives to keep their mouths shut. And in the meantime, these common-sense modifications serve as a visible demonstration of how much Andrada cares for the common sailor in the Lion's Guard, further reinforcing its loyalty.

(An interesting question is whether Andrada himself is aware that the modifications would actually increase net casualties. I think that's something that could go either way; even if it he did there are good reasons to make them.)

Have to drive home the point about dictatorships being bad and inefficient. How else would you know that if an indie space sim didn't teach you?

Given the reactions from people in pages and pages of comments... I think that most people don't know or willfully disbelieve the mountains of evidence.

(Right? I have to admit I didn't think this was a particularly deep or controversial point, but here we are.)
Title: Re: About the new "Lion's Guard" ships teased in "Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2"
Post by: Igncom1 on July 31, 2022, 04:43:13 PM
Have to drive home the point about dictatorships being bad and inefficient. How else would you know that if an indie space sim didn't teach you?

Given the reactions from people in pages and pages of comments... I think that most people don't know or willfully disbelieve the mountains of evidence.

(Right? I have to admit I didn't think this was a particularly deep or controversial point, but here we are.)

I'm glad at least you are talking about this as I felt like I'd be breaking to rules to discuss such.... potentially off topic political things like that.

The rhetorical sarcastic arguments made against presenting a bad thing as a bad thing seems like a common and growing occurrence these days. Making too many morally grey characters almost seems to lead to creating bad characters that are almost justified in their badness, even to the point that people end up actually agreeing with the bad character.

"Ends justifies the means." and so forth is a topic I've seen across a lot of dystopian or bleak science fiction that had a little too many people siding with the bad guys, genuinely. And then reacting negatively when its pointed out, that it is in fact bad.

 :-\
Title: Re: About the new "Lion's Guard" ships teased in "Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2"
Post by: Alex_P on July 31, 2022, 04:54:08 PM
If for some reason you later decide the crew thing doesn't work out, or isn't impactful enough, consider:
• something like a CR recovery rate reduction — their combat capability is focused on "how to defeat a flash insurrection" rather than fighting a protracted series of battles
• something like a supply/fuel capacity reduction — these ships spend a lot of time orbiting around their home bases or patrolling the inner system, they're not really used for force projection elsewhere
(I'm fine with the crew thing, too.)
Title: Re: About the new "Lion's Guard" ships teased in "Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2"
Post by: BigBrainEnergy on July 31, 2022, 05:05:58 PM
If I had any impression of the SD given how little I engage with the lore, it would be something along the lines of a highly competent and charismatic military officer broke off to form his own authoritarian state. Rather than it sucking because its leadership is inefficient, it sucks to live there for the opposite reason: how skilled Andrada is at forcing his vision of an ideal society onto the planets he controls. He's the last person you would want to give power, but he's damn good at getting it (which may well still be true).

The new lore doesn't bother me because I don't really care about why the dictatorship sucks - by default I assume it would. The specifics of how that's portrayed is at the author's discretion.

My initial assumption about special modifications was it might reduce crew casualties by 10% (something the player wouldn't care about) while also reducing flux stats by 10% (something the player definitely cares about). I mean, reduced crew casualties won't matter if the whole ship blows up. I do like the idea of the LG ships having slightly different mounts, kind of like how the pirate shrike is "worse" but it gets a ballistic mount so people still use it. You could even do some weird stuff like downgrading the hybrid turrets on the hammerhead to ballistic, which would not quite be a straight downgrade because now you can use ballistic rangefinder on it.
Title: Re: About the new "Lion's Guard" ships teased in "Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2"
Post by: Amazigh on July 31, 2022, 05:08:46 PM
but now they have a bit of sidegrade potential for some possible niche uses (a ballistic slot converted to hybrid here, a built-in hullmod there).
I like the sound of this, could open up some very interesting build options depending on what mounts get altered on what ships.
I will look forward to seeing the changes when the update drops.
Title: Re: About the new "Lion's Guard" ships teased in "Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2"
Post by: SafariJohn on July 31, 2022, 05:11:33 PM
Andrada's special modifications are such that it makes *sense* that they would reduce crew casualties. In any given engagement, it would be easy to point to multiple cases where they saved lives. The increased losses would be harder to attribute to a specific cause - e.g. a medical team got there a bit too late, that sort of thing - and conclusively showing their net effect would require a statistical analysis of casualties in a large number of battles. Which, even if the LG took enough casualties on a regular basis to make this possible, no-one with any sense of self-preservation would undertake.

So as far as most people know in-universe, they do reduce casualties. The people that have doubts can't really prove it and have incentives to keep their mouths shut. And in the meantime, these common-sense modifications serve as a visible demonstration of how much Andrada cares for the common sailor in the Lion's Guard, further reinforcing its loyalty.

If the effects are not known in-universe maybe you should have the hullmod lie and say it reduces crew casualties. Then have some sidequest or encounter with the historian that reveals the truth and fixes the hullmod's tooltip.

I'd still rather see it reduce crew casualties and have more important negative effects. Not being removable could be linked to the other modifications made to the ships like mount changes.
Title: Re: About the new "Lion's Guard" ships teased in "Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2"
Post by: BigBeans on July 31, 2022, 05:29:25 PM
Have to drive home the point about dictatorships being bad and inefficient. How else would you know that if an indie space sim didn't teach you?

I mean they are??? Theres literally an ongoing high profile real life example if you need one lmao.
Title: Re: About the new "Lion's Guard" ships teased in "Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2"
Post by: Alex on July 31, 2022, 05:46:06 PM
If the effects are not known in-universe maybe you should have the hullmod lie and say it reduces crew casualties. Then have some sidequest or encounter with the historian that reveals the truth and fixes the hullmod's tooltip.

(Hmm! Side note - was toying with the idea of having this show up as an s-mod instead of a d-mod if the player had a Diktat commission, but the logistical challenges of making that work were a bit much for something that'd mostly be there for a laugh.)
Title: Re: About the new "Lion's Guard" ships teased in "Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2"
Post by: Amoebka on July 31, 2022, 07:25:24 PM
something that'd mostly be there for a laugh
Players like me are irrationally repulsed by ugly d-mod stripes on ships, I would welcome it being displayed in neutral/s-mod color instead (even without the commission). Is it still restorable at least?
Mount changes are about what I hoped for. Assuming hullmods are something impactful, and not blast doors, those are great too.
Title: Re: About the new "Lion's Guard" ships teased in "Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2"
Post by: Alex on July 31, 2022, 07:36:46 PM
It's restorable, yeah!
Title: Re: About the new "Lion's Guard" ships teased in "Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2"
Post by: CrashToDesktop on July 31, 2022, 07:37:37 PM
But anyway, going off on a tangent here. The main point is I felt zero pressure to change it from that aspect of it (if anything, negative pressure, to avoid it looking like changes were made because of it), but alongside all that stuff there were also some good points.

More on-topic, the LG ships are still generally speaking worse than baseline, though not by a lot (which I mean they never were), but now they have a bit of sidegrade potential for some possible niche uses (a ballistic slot converted to hybrid here, a built-in hullmod there).
Good to hear on both points. Whatever happens, I'm sure it'll be good.
Title: Re: About the new "Lion's Guard" ships teased in "Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2"
Post by: Vanshilar on July 31, 2022, 07:42:45 PM
More on-topic, the LG ships are still generally speaking worse than baseline, though not by a lot (which I mean they never were), but now they have a bit of sidegrade potential for some possible niche uses (a ballistic slot converted to hybrid here, a built-in hullmod there).

There are probably a lot of avenues for sidegrade potential that haven't really been explored. For example, how about a hullmod that makes non-beam energy weapons do say 100% more damage, but also cut their fire rate in half, thus preserving their overall DPS but resulting in fewer, more damaging (higher hit strength) shots? Maybe also make the projectile speed 80% of normal or something (slow them down somewhat) so that their overall DPS considering hit strength and hit chance stays roughly the same. This would fit in with certain megalomaniacs' desire for big guns (Schwerer Gustav, Iraq's Project Babylon, etc.) and big explosions from them, yet give an interesting option for players to fight against and for players to possibly use. Essentially giving energy projectile weapons the Heavy Mauler treatment.
Title: Re: About the new "Lion's Guard" ships teased in "Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2"
Post by: itBeABruhMoment on July 31, 2022, 08:04:29 PM
Higher damage per shot weapons with no impact on dps would be a direct upgrade considering how armour damage is calculated.
Title: Re: About the new "Lion's Guard" ships teased in "Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2"
Post by: Vanshilar on July 31, 2022, 08:19:47 PM
Higher damage per shot weapons with no impact on dps would be a direct upgrade considering how armour damage is calculated.

Exactly, hence why a projectile speed decrease, so that on average they'd miss more often, evening out the overall damage. I could have just said with a much lower rate of fire (so that the on-paper DPS is decreased), but I think slower projectile to reduce the weapon's DPS is more interesting. Gives more of an intimidating feel to those weapons, i.e. big, lumbering projectiles.

I may also have been having too much fun with the Rift Torpedo Launcher. And the Cobra.
Title: Re: About the new "Lion's Guard" ships teased in "Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2"
Post by: Kos135 on July 31, 2022, 08:54:07 PM
I don't mind the d-mod on the Lion's Guard ships or the lore narrative about Andrada being a meddlesome micro-manager, just as long as the LG ships aren't straight downgrades from their normal versions (they're not) and Andrada isn't portrayed as a cartoonish moron (he isn't).

Every faction has negative aspects and if the Sindrian Diktat is centered around Andrada, his narcissism, and the cult of personality that he's built around himself, then it makes sense that some problems would stem from that. The Luddics are held back by their hatred of technology, the Persean League has its lack of unifying ideology, Tri-Tachyon has a bunch of skeletons in its closet, the Hegemony has... I don't know. Oppressive laws? Corrupt officials?
The Sindrians have Andrada and his ego.
Title: Re: About the new "Lion's Guard" ships teased in "Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2"
Post by: Hatter on July 31, 2022, 09:05:22 PM
I just want to stop hearing about the new LG changes until the ships are actually in the game. Then we can litigate it over ten pages.
Title: Re: About the new "Lion's Guard" ships teased in "Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2"
Post by: BigBrainEnergy on July 31, 2022, 10:48:04 PM
I just want to stop hearing about the new LG changes until the ships are actually in the game. Then we can litigate it over ten pages.
Yeah, I can't wait to have those arguments. At this point everything that can be said has been said given the limited information we have. Nothing left to do but wait for the next update.
Title: Re: About the new "Lion's Guard" ships teased in "Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2"
Post by: Grievous69 on July 31, 2022, 11:23:44 PM
The rhetorical sarcastic arguments made against presenting a bad thing as a bad thing seems like a common and growing occurrence these days. Making too many morally grey characters almost seems to lead to creating bad characters that are almost justified in their badness, even to the point that people end up actually agreeing with the bad character.
I literally have the opposite experience, too much characters that are either pure good or pure evil. You explained a well written character and then said that's bad... If I'm consuming certain media and see a character that's bad just for the sake of being bad then it makes it very boring, it's like reading a fairy tale for children. Characters being morally grey is what makes it interesting, as the vast majority of people have certain goals and rules they live by in life. That's what makes them believable and more realistic. Sure there's always an absolute worst of the worst of humans, and vice versa, but those are exceptions.

Back on track, I'm really glad to hear about those LG changes.
Title: Re: About the new "Lion's Guard" ships teased in "Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2"
Post by: smithney on July 31, 2022, 11:59:57 PM
What would be more stupid - having a cadre of less skilled but absolutely reliable officers form what's essentially your personal guard and a nucleus around which your other, less reliable forces might rally in the event of an attempted coup, or having more qualified officers in these positions - in a fleet that's not intended to see much combat, anyway! - whose loyalties are less certain?
Ooh, a question by the auteur, can't let that slide ^^

Since Andrada decided that ending his career by getting unceremoniously relegated to Ragnar is less preferable to being ceremoniously thrown into Askonia, yeah, it makes sense that he would like a reliable meathsield around him. Still, I was thinking about the LG pilots more in terms of those less reliable forces you are mentioning. More like impressionable young useful idiots drilled into subordination by the nucleus you were talking about and used like living weapons (raised from what would be the Diktat's version of Hitlerjugend). On the other hand, it's probably easier to get the point across in way similar to that outlined by SafariJohn.

@character morality thread
Personally, I find the best characters to be morally fluid over time. For example George Martin does this exceptionally well in his most famous saga: you get to see characters cross the moral event horizon, only to see the moral horizon shift as you explore other characters, only to see the same characters dip again. Due to this, you also see characters balance on the moral horizon vary in greyness, despite never really diverging from their baseline. This is obviously very hard for the writer to do, especially considering the limitations, so I don't expect this to happen in Starsector. I will be happy with most characters being generally grey, with a healthy dose of decidedly dark characters (shoutout to David for Cotton and Kanta btw), given the setting. In fact, I wouldn't mind anything as long as it doesn't ruin the immersion ^^

edit
Title: Re: About the new "Lion's Guard" ships teased in "Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2"
Post by: Amoebka on August 01, 2022, 12:17:28 AM
More like impressionable young useful idiots drilled into subordination by the nucleus you were talking about and used like living weapons (raised from what would be the Diktat's version of Hitlerjugend).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Diktat as a faction is only about 25 years old at the time of the game, no? The indoctrinated youth is not old or experienced enough to captain spaceships.
Title: Re: About the new "Lion's Guard" ships teased in "Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2"
Post by: smithney on August 01, 2022, 12:34:50 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Diktat as a faction is only about 25 years old at the time of the game, no? The indoctrinated youth is not old or experienced enough to captain spaceships.
You're right, I let myself drift away on imagination. This doesn't rule out the possibility that they were impressionable youngsters who started out in the Hegemony, but yeah, I'm stretching it at this point.
Title: Re: About the new "Lion's Guard" ships teased in "Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2"
Post by: Alex_P on August 01, 2022, 06:21:30 AM
Since Andrada decided that ending his career by getting unceremoniously relegated to Ragnar is less preferable to being ceremoniously thrown into Askonia, yeah, it makes sense that he would like a reliable meathsield around him. Still, I was thinking about the LG pilots more in terms of those less reliable forces you are mentioning. More like impressionable young useful idiots drilled into subordination by the nucleus you were talking about and used like living weapons (raised from what would be the Diktat's version of Hitlerjugend). On the other hand, it's probably easier to get the point across in way similar to that outlined by SafariJohn.
There's something else, too: "royal guard" type forces can become quite independently-minded over time, like the Praetorians or Mamluks. If that's a concern the dictator has, they may well be putting organizational structure in place to encourage direct loyalty to the overlord even at the expense of some camaraderie and cohesion. I can easily imagine the vibe of a Lion's Guard posting being very buttoned-down and policed, as a result of really really emphasizing devotion to the one cause and the supreme leader at the expense of some part of the trust military people normally develop in their peers and their direct superiors.