Okay but if you use 2x neural linked ones as flagships you can hop between them to constantly reset the ship system. That lets you magdump 2x slow-reload medium launchers (Pilums/Hurricane MIRVs in vanilla, lot of MRM/LRM options in mods) almost as fast as they can fire!>Vigilance
... but you're right
...but if everything is viable then fleet composition is pointless.Sorry if I'm veering off-topic, but I can't leave this sentence uncontested. I'd argue the opposite: if everything is viable, then you are free to compose within the limits set by the rules without worrying about shooting yourself in the foot. The question is in what way is the element in question viable. I believe you were trying to say that once everything is viable, there's not enough variety to make composition interesting. That is a valid worry, but the causality is opposite: situations like this arise when the developer sacrifices variety for the sake of viability, which sometimes happens in multiplayer games. However, theoretically speaking, you can make a system where all elements are viable provided the circumstances. DOTA 2 is the first on my mind when it comes to multiplayer examples; I'd carefully suggest XCOM 2 as a singleplayer example, but there are probably better ones out there.
Given the trendline of the ship's design (the turret change to a Hybrid slot especially), it seems to me like the best solution here is making the Vigilance low tech.I wouldn't necessarily go that far, lo-tech already has the Manticore and as you suggested in the previous post, frigate armadas don't generally happen in a regular playthrough (don't think that's necessarily a bad thing). I'd say there's something intriguing about a frigate-sized Gryphon, but I feel like the only way to not make it broken (spam, lovely spam...) is to double down on its glass cannon-ness. I don't see why midline couldn't sport one such frigate when the other options are all bulky.
...but if everything is viable then fleet composition is pointless.Sorry if I'm veering off-topic, but I can't leave this sentence uncontested. I'd argue the opposite: if everything is viable, then you are free to compose within the limits set by the rules without worrying about shooting yourself in the foot. The question is in what way is the element in question viable. I believe you were trying to say that once everything is viable, there's not enough variety to make composition interesting. That is a valid worry, but the causality is opposite: situations like this arise when the developer sacrifices variety for the sake of viability, which sometimes happens in multiplayer games. However, theoretically speaking, you can make a system where all elements are viable provided the circumstances. DOTA 2 is the first on my mind when it comes to multiplayer examples; I'd carefully suggest XCOM 2 as a singleplayer example, but there are probably better ones out there.
If everything works, then what does the choice matter?Do you play any other games lol? Like that's such a hard contradiction. If stuff works with very varying results, you're going to gravitate towards the best options. Thus reducing the choice in the game unless you're a masochist or a newb. Choices being equally balanced now means the player can do all sorts of different strats and find them fun, instead of underwhelming and infuriating.
Generally I like it when using different units actually matters rather then just spamming the one or having every choice be pointless.Precisely what balance attempts to accomplish!!
No no, he's got a point. Of course the player's gonna gravitate towards the better tools for the current job. The point Igncom1 is making is that if you streamline the tools to the point where each of them can do the job well enough, then there's no challenge in looking for the right tool for the job. You can just pick the one you enjoy wielding the most and not worry about failing. In other words, you have plenty of choice, but the choice doesn't matter much. Does that sound fun to you?If everything works, then what does the choice matter?Do you play any other games lol? Like that's such a hard contradiction. If stuff works with very varying results, you're going to gravitate towards the best options. Thus reducing the choice in the game unless you're a masochist or a newb. Choices being equally balanced now means the player can do all sorts of different strats and find them fun, instead of underwhelming and infuriating.
Single player games don't have to have perfect made in heaven balance, but it will impact the enjoyment a lot. Either making the experience too easy, or making it a living hell.
I strongly disagree with making ships bad on purpose to allow the players to "skillfully ignore the weak ones". Every ship should at least have a sensible niche where it shines. There are still decisions to make in loadout design, officer skills and choosing the overall fleet composition.I'm gonna chime in to this off-topic again to clear something I said up. If something's too weak to be used in a certain situation, then it's basically a reduction of choice by the way of viability. Grievous69 had bad experience with situations where this ostensibly happened. Situations where the player did have agency - the choices they made affected the player's success significantly - but many of the choices were too suboptimal to be worth considering, thus effectively nonexistent.
It's gotta have built-in Expanded Missiles by default. It only has the one launcher, and once it's blown through its meager ammo stores it's just a liability. If you equip it with non-regenerating missile ammo, it typically lasts less time than the PPT on a Wolf with a leaky reactor.I feel like this might be the only change necessary, possibly offset by a DP increase if too strong. Vigilance is already sluggish and fragile, so it's gonna stay a glass cannon, but this way it might actually carry it's weight as a little Gryphon.
If it killed even one target it has basically paid for it's self.
All that said, I don’t think they’re bad but they aren’t very competitive relative to other choices of equal DP. Maybe they need to be priced like a Kite.I could see it dropping to 4 dp and getting a small buff, but 2 dp is probably out of the question. Alex wouldn't give us a medium missile for 2 dp even if it was "balanced" accordingly.
I have a very strange relationship with a Salamander MRM on the Vigilance, because larger ships can usually mount one or two normal Salamanders to give them some versatility and not ruin their firepower. With the Vigilance, that's giving up more than half its available firepower for an occasional chance to knock out engines, maybe a gun, and deal token damage.While this is true, I think you're underestimating the sheer volume of salamanders you can pump out with fast missile racks when you don't need to worry about running out of ammo.
+1 to built in Expanded Missile Racks.
I don’t think you can do much for the Vigilance without adding a weapon mount. It has the capability of being a decent support craft but as I found in my latest Midline play through, they die too easily mid-game, even when I play them “safe”.
All that said, I don’t think they’re bad but they aren’t very competitive relative to other choices of equal DP. Maybe they need to be priced like a Kite.
While this is true, I think you're underestimating the sheer volume of salamanders you can pump out with fast missile racks when you don't need to worry about running out of ammo.
give it a bubble shield and active flaresYeah, personally I would love that. Active flares double down on the support aspect, and give it much needed PD. The shield could simply have its arc increased (again..) to 180, so that frontal conversion makes it 360. Right now you need both frontal AND extended to get full coverage, which is unreasonably pricey for a shield with mediocre ratio and tiny capacity.
It does feel like people want the Vigilance to be not the Vigilance.Considering they have trouble even agreeing on what Vigilance is I'd say people want Vigilance to be at least something :^
But Omen is the anti fighter escort already, why make Vigilance the same thing?Why does Monitor has 2 flak cannons if Omen is the anti-fighter escort already? Fleet support frigates need to be able to fend off fighters somehow. Vigilance doesn't have weapon mounts to do that, so the system has to take care of it. You could give it a built-in heavy burst laser or something, I guess, but that's a more invasive change.
It does feel like people want the Vigilance to be not the Vigilance.Vigilance would have to be 3 DP, if it remained as it is. It's a kite that trades mobility and so survivability for more firepower, except this firepower isn't enough to make them competitive with Gryphon or Falcon P.
Ironically, Monitor doesn't need any PD at all, since it can just tank fighters, and missiles... I haven't used Monitor much and I never really cared for its flak. It's there to tank damage, not kill anything.But Omen is the anti fighter escort already, why make Vigilance the same thing?Why does Monitor has 2 flak cannons if Omen is the anti-fighter escort already? Fleet support frigates need to be able to fend off fighters somehow. Vigilance doesn't have weapon mounts to do that, so the system has to take care of it. You could give it a built-in heavy burst laser or something, I guess, but that's a more invasive change.
Although Vigilance might become a cool choice if the upcoming laser missiles are going to be strong. For example the kinetic missile that's basically a Grab beam couple with IR Autolance gives Vigilance nice pressure and defense against fighters. It's still vulnerable to missiles tho.I fail to see the logic. Even if the new missiles are powerful (they won't be), you could mount them on better ships. None of them are regenerating/infinite, so FMR gives no amazing synergy.
Flares, ubitiquous? If combat ships (why do you even take non combat ships into consideration, you will never see them in combat on your side lol), only Hound, Wayfarer (iirc) and Apogee use them.Why do I take non-combat ships in consideration? Dunno about you, but to me having a "default" ship system is a big nerf to cool factor. Do you think the Flare Launcher meme would exist if this wasn't a thing?
Manjets are similarly bland, yet also a thing.Funny that you mention them. Another "default" system, yet I don't hear people complain about it as much. One of the reasons might be that it feels integral to the battleships that use it rather than as an afterthought. Another might be that it feels "at home" in midline as much as other mobility systems do in their respective tech schools. I would take an inspiration from mobility systems if flare systems were to be given a look at.
Vigilance would have to be 3 DP, if it remained as it is. It's a kite that trades mobility and so survivability for more firepower, except this firepower isn't enough to make them competitive with Gryphon or Falcon P.
I mean they also have hybrid mounts so you can just put a HVD on there as well.
I think a key point for the Vigilance is that it shares a flaw that a lot of ships with weak point defense and an omnishield : they can't reliably vent hard flux.Hmm.
Hmm.
How well does Vigilance with Heavy Machine Gun or Flak work?
It should always be acting in support of a ship with either longer range or higher speed, so being kited shouldn't be too much of a threat. And a medium missile + point defense is a decent combination for an escort.
Heavy blaster is the absolute worst weapon you could put on a slow frigate with 130 effective dissipation and 2000 capacity. It literally overfluxes itself in 5 seconds, not to mention it has to somehow get within 600 range without taking a bunch of shield damage.
I've been using HVD + Pilum with 5 shield boosting hullmods, and while it doesn't die too much, it also doesn't really do enough to be worth using. Missile ships really want officers, and dedicating one to a budget frigate is just not a good choice. If I could put a gamma core into it, the ship would be decent, but the game doesn't work that way.
Heavy blasters are.... not the worst on the Vigilances honestly, as it's not like being shot by anything else is any better with a less fluxy weapon.Well if Mining Blaster didn't exist, they'd take the first place, so you're technically right. Still, I have major doubts such a build can work in any capacity in any stage of the game. If 1000 range low flux builds don't seem to do well survival wise, I don't see how your 600 range extremely overfluxed build works in practice.
Just saw the latest post and you said HBs and Phase Lances are good AI weapons... Alright another lost thread.I remember having success spamming AI Tempests with Phase Lances and Graviton Beams back in HEF age. A squad of these could bully a squishy target to death and pressure bulkier ones without being threatened by pretty much anything. I wonder how would this strategy hold up these days. Could a similar setup work with TT Brawlers or Hyperions? Can you imagine Vigilance being rebuilt into a small Sunder with a side-dish of DEMs?
I remember having success spamming AI Tempests with Phase Lances and Graviton Beams back in HEF age. A squad of these could bully a squishy target to death and pressure bulkier ones without being threatened by pretty much anything. I wonder how would this strategy hold up these days. Could a similar setup work with TT Brawlers or Hyperions? Can you imagine Vigilance being rebuilt into a small Sunder with a side-dish of DEMs?Phase lance/Graviton might work with High-Scatter. A tempest can easily get into 400 range, but I don't know if the AI will just drop their shield between phase lance shots. If it does you could bring more ships with ion weapons, or maybe the threat of termination sequence alone will be enough.
I think the Vigilance needs a full rebuild like the Hyperion got.
dig down on the missile specialist and get some small missile slots
Add expanded missile racks built-in, this encourages using ammo-dependent missiles but doesn't actually improve the Pilum/SalamanderSalamander doesn't use ammo, but Pilum does.
Add expanded missile racks built-in, this encourages using ammo-dependent missiles but doesn't actually improve the Pilum/SalamanderSalamander doesn't use ammo, but Pilum does.
Expanded Racks does help Pilum as it gives them a longer time until the missiles become rate-limited and can only fire as fast as they are reloaded.