Fractal Softworks Forum
Starsector => General Discussion => Topic started by: SpoonWasAlreadyTaken on June 27, 2022, 11:37:58 PM
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This has probably been discussed here but I couldn't find anything of this specific sort.
So I recently got back in to the game and killed the Coronal Hypershunt Guardians and was disappointed that it is as far as I'm aware the only ship in the game the player is unable to get. I get why they did it, its very powerful. And I'm still hoping that there will be a way (Vanilla) to get it maybe by defeating the next or final big boss of the game. Additionally they could have done easily done what they did with the Ziggurat and let the player get a weaker version without the splitting shards and slightly reduced stats or "whatever". A partial reason of why I'm asking is that I'm fully aware that you can edit the csv to be able to get it and there are probably a dozen or so mods that allow you to get it, but its still nicer if it would be possible in the base game. Another reason why I'm asking is that it has the Temporal Shell System and It's probably my favorite one in concept but the only other ship that has it is the Scarab and its about as useful as a bag of rocks while trying to swim.
So I pose a question to you fine people of the Starsector community. Do you think you will be able to get it at some point in the base game and is there any reason you think that it isn't possible currently?
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Just to address one thing: Scarab is one of the best frigates in the game currently, better than Tempest right now.
As for the Tesseract, I doubt we'll see anything made for the player. That version would have to be SEVERELY nerfed.
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Storywise omega technology is meant to be beyond human understanding so we can only get a small taste through their weapons. Even then their weapons are in limited supply for each playthrough, and we don't get any fighter LPCs from them.
Temporal shell is cool and all, but it's insanely powerful and that's probably why we can only use it on a frigate that doesn't even get medium slots. It's kinda like getting an accelerated ammo feeder that works for all weapons AND plasma jets at the same time except it's actually better than that. Right now I believe the Tesseract costs 24 dp despite being more powerful than pretty much anything else in the game, so it seems like Alex has no intention of giving it to us. Nothing wrong with limiting some stuff to modded games only.
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It's unobtainable because it's not been designed with the intent of the player having one. The ship itself is frankly a boring stat-stick, it has ridiculous stats & mounts for a cruiser (y'know, the thing that lets it go up against fleets without breaking a sweat); the only thing really going for it is the splitting mechanic, and that's been coded in a way that would prevent battles from ever ending if the player got their hands on one (though it's easy to fix, if alex was so inclined).
(also, the cryosleeper guardians aren't obtainable for similar reasons, if the player could drive them they'd trivialise all content because unlimited missiles lol)
As for them being obtainable, I hope it never happens. They're meant to be a (basically) alien & completely incomprehensible force that's doing wierd things for unknown goals, allowing the player to directly interact with them like that would take away the whole vibe and kinda just ruin them completely imo.
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One look at the Tesseract's stats should make it apparent that it is not balanced like playable ships. From a quick glance, I see unlimited PPT and enough speed (with its system) to outrun just about anything if it wants to win by running out their clock instead of just killing them, if it were playable.
Guardian has unlimited missiles. Get rid of unlimited missiles, and up its DP cost to about 75 or 80, and it might be balanced enough to be playable.
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I am actually playing with a modded Guardian.
Without the unlimited missiles it kinda suck.
WITH the unlimited missiles... then it is a serious powerhouse, and indeed worth some rather high DP cost, the mod uses 160 DP for a pure missile guardian and 80 DP for the other variants.
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May as well ask why we can't get the Xenorphica as it is when you actually fight it. I, too, would love to have the motes do damage!
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I edited a save to re-enable the zig motes...
They are hilariously powerful, you can kill almost anything with them (the exception is the tesseract, with the "stock" zig variant you won't kill the tesseract even with the OP motes...).
It was kinda funny wandering in a Ordos, deploying only the zig, and seeing everything die.
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Weakened Ziggurat with blue motes can solo double Tesseracts at the hypershunts. (It was not easy, but it is doable.) I did not use stock loadout with plasma, disintegrators/maulers, and reapers. Used lances, needlers, and IR PLs (latter for additional PD when motes were not enough). When I lowered map size to 200, I could solo the special Remnant bounty led by Tesseract flagship with Ziggurat.
Phase Anchor is an enabler that powers up Ziggurat. Makes burst weapons like lances and needlers more powerful.
When Ziggurat gets Omega weapons, especially enough AMSRMs and Resonators, it gets crazy. It can solo double or triple Ordos, and it can solo the entire simulator before CR decays to zero.
Ziggurat with Phase Anchor is very strong. Makes Neural Link Radiant look like a chump.
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Oh yeah, like I said I was toying with the ziggurat without adding more hullmods, to see what the stock variant could do. An optmized Ziggurat is something else entirely.
Also the "playable guardian" mod in my playthough, with a lot of modded hullmods I added to it, can solo almost anything as far as I know (I did had a close call with a bounty that had destroyers flagship and they managed to get behind the guardian and take a good chunk of the hull... even being able to fight multiple capital ships at same time, guardian is vulnerable to anything that gets behind its shield...)
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One look at the Tesseract's stats should make it apparent that it is not balanced like playable ships. From a quick glance, I see unlimited PPT and enough speed (with its system) to outrun just about anything if it wants to win by running out their clock instead of just killing them, if it were playable.
Guardian has unlimited missiles. Get rid of unlimited missiles, and up its DP cost to about 75 or 80, and it might be balanced enough to be playable.
Oh I know, I can't resist not snooping around in a games code (I don't mean like the actual base code, more of what makes it tick and the stats of things) or at least what I can somewhat easily access. This is why I said a nerfed version, or another ships with temporal shell.
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Just to address one thing: Scarab is one of the best frigates in the game currently, better than Tempest right now.
As for the Tesseract, I doubt we'll see anything made for the player. That version would have to be SEVERELY nerfed.
Could you do me the favor of showing me or telling me how the scarab is good because I at least cant figure it out nor can I find anything on the internet due to it having almost any presence on youtube and such.
But you have to admit that a Tesseract or a very nerfed version of it would be a cool final reward to the player when you manage to kill the final final thing or its equivalent or something of the sort. If you are familiar with the game Terraria, in it you can a set of weapons when you kill the final boss, those weapons are so powerful you can kill the final boss with your eyes closed with them, nobody really uses them in a vanilla game but they are cool as all heck to have as that last hurray of the game.
Note: In total I estimate about 150 hours on the game combined from like 20 hours when I first played it 3 years ago and a 120 now in my 2 saves. So I do have quite a lot of things to learn about the game, and I am the type of person that loves to min-max, but interestingly enough as my day job I balance things in games, while they are not video games but rather TTRPG's although the same principle mostly applies.
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Doesn't have to be the tesseract itself but an automated ship that can split itself upon defeat like them would be really fun to play around with. Chances are it is going to come from a questline with an Omega capital ship or station at the end of it and i am scared at the very idea of it.
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Could you do me the favor of showing me or telling me how the scarab is good because I at least cant figure it out nor can I find anything on the internet due to it having almost any presence on youtube and such.
1 Antimatter Blaster and 2 IR Pulse lasers (you can put PD in the back if you feel like it) and then max flux stats, and add Hardened Subsystems, Hardened shields, etc. if you still have room or invest in s-mods. I'm too lazy to make a video now but that thing will be the most reliable little thing in your fleet, has no trouble facing up destroyers, and is quite survivable on its own. Just remember to retreat it once the PPT goes down.
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But you have to admit that a Tesseract or a very nerfed version of it would be a cool final reward to the player when you manage to kill the final final thing or its equivalent or something of the sort. If you are familiar with the game Terraria, in it you can a set of weapons when you kill the final boss, those weapons are so powerful you can kill the final boss with your eyes closed with them, nobody really uses them in a vanilla game but they are cool as all heck to have as that last hurray of the game.
Idk, I prefer the open and undefined "ending" Starsector has to the "Congratulations! You defeated the final boss! Here have a reward that completely trivializes the game because we have no more challenge to offer you!" approach. This way you just quit when you start getting bored and don't feel pressured to "complete" a sandbox game.
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But you have to admit that a Tesseract or a very nerfed version of it would be a cool final reward to the player when you manage to kill the final final thing or its equivalent or something of the sort. If you are familiar with the game Terraria, in it you can a set of weapons when you kill the final boss, those weapons are so powerful you can kill the final boss with your eyes closed with them, nobody really uses them in a vanilla game but they are cool as all heck to have as that last hurray of the game.
Idk, I prefer the open and undefined "ending" Starsector has to the "Congratulations! You defeated the final boss! Here have a reward that completely trivializes the game because we have no more challenge to offer you!" approach. This way you just quit when you start getting bored and don't feel pressured to "complete" a sandbox game.
Interesting, I had heard that the AM blaster is good on the Scarab. I have been trying to get the AM blaster bp for about 8 hours now with no luck.
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Without an officer and skills, I like to run scarab with Ir pulse + ion canon + amb to keep flux down. With flux boosting skills, I will run more flux heavy loadouts like Grevious suggested. I think front shield conversion which gives 360 coverage + a 50% reduction in upkeep is really good too. That lets you comfortably run without PD IMO, although I've been reconsidering that decisions, since I think the AI can sometimes be unnecessarily passive without PD when it could just tank some missiles on shields. The amb is really the thing that lets you do damage to hull/armor so it's pretty key.
To see the real power of scarabs (and frigates in general), you want the skill wolfpack tactics along with an officer. I think the Scarab might benefit disproportionately from that too. I highly recommend trying out that play style with a group of 4-5 officered scarabs. It's pretty fun and they definitely perform better in groups where they can rotate in/out of combat easily.
Scarab also becomes kinda crazy strong with omega weapons, particularly mini pulsers and anti matter srm launchers.
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Without an officer and skills, I like to run scarab with Ir pulse + ion canon + amb to keep flux down. With flux boosting skills, I will run more flux heavy loadouts like Grevious suggested. I think front shield conversion which gives 360 coverage + a 50% reduction in upkeep is really good too. That lets you comfortably run without PD IMO, although I've been reconsidering that decisions, since I think the AI can sometimes be unnecessarily passive without PD when it could just tank some missiles on shields. The amb is really the thing that lets you do damage to hull/armor so it's pretty key.
To see the real power of scarabs (and frigates in general), you want the skill wolfpack tactics along with an officer. I think the Scarab might benefit disproportionately from that too. I highly recommend trying out that play style with a group of 4-5 officered scarabs. It's pretty fun and they definitely perform better in groups where they can rotate in/out of combat easily.
Scarab also becomes kinda crazy strong with omega weapons, particularly mini pulsers and anti matter srm launchers.
I decided to raid Tri Tach for AM blaster blueprint and to try out the scarabs with that. Actually very good especially with the green tree last skill that makes them have 3 skills and less cost without an officer and have them with hardened subsystems, safety overrides, and front shield conversion. I had an army of about 25 go in to the Coronal Hypershunt Guardian battle and only 1 managed to die. Sadly from both fights and alpha site I managed to get all the Omega weapons i dont have any real use for in my fleet. Like the Rift Missile Launcher, rift beam, and Disruptor repeater (I think thats its name) and a copy or two of eachj of those Ohwell.
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Sadly from both fights and alpha site I managed to get all the Omega weapons i dont have any real use for in my fleet. Like the Rift Missile Launcher, rift beam, and Disruptor repeater (I think thats its name) and a copy or two of eachj of those Ohwell.
I find the rift lance to be a good replacement for antimatter blasters. It works better against shield flickering, and only really is overshadowed by the AMB against the most armored ships in the game.
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Sadly from both fights and alpha site I managed to get all the Omega weapons i dont have any real use for in my fleet. Like the Rift Missile Launcher, rift beam, and Disruptor repeater (I think thats its name) and a copy or two of eachj of those Ohwell.
I find the rift lance to be a good replacement for antimatter blasters. It works better against shield flickering, and only really is overshadowed by the AMB against the most armored ships in the game.
There is a difference between Rift Lance and Rift Beam. Rift lance is the faster phase lance in a small mount. That is strong, although not as an AMB substitute. Rift beam is the continuous beam in a medium mount. Rift beam is a better heavy burst laser, and it is underwhelming unless the ship really needs something with more PD power than heavy burst laser. The explosions it procs can gobble up fighters.
Rift Missile Launcher I am guessing is the large missile. Not terribly practical, and not as useful as smaller Omega missiles. With only one at a time, it is practically a slow homing Sabot because you almost never catch the AI without its shields up, so that one missile is basically 6000 damage to shields. With more than one missile (from racks or Missile Spec.), player might get the chance to actually land a hit on armor or hull.
Disruptor repeater... not sure if you refer to Reality Disruptor (which is not a repeater) or Volatile Particle Driver (which is a repeater). Reality Disruptor seems more useful for the enemy to use against the player than the other way around. It is slow and non-homing, does little more than EMP whatever is in its path. Volatile Particle Driver is decent on high-tech ships. Not too useful for ballistic users because it does not count as ballistic for Heavy Ballistics Integration (you pay full 30 OP) or Ballistic Mastery (no range and damage bonuses).
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Volatile particle driver is pretty cool when paired with HEF because it counts as an energy weapon even though it does kinteic damage.
As for rift torpedoes they're really good if you pair them with a squall on the apogee. Overload duration is based on how far over the flux capacity the one shot puts you, so rift torpedo overloads are the longest in the game. Plus it's really hard to overload ships like the onslaught because the AI is smart enough to let some torpedoes through to avoid it. On a ship that heavy it's better to take an atropos to the face if it keeps your pd going. The rift torpedo though? It pretty consistently blocks that one. The long window it provides makes it easy for your other ships to follow up with some good old-fashioned anti armor.
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There is a difference between Rift Lance and Rift Beam. Rift lance is the faster phase lance in a small mount. That is strong, although not as an AMB substitute. Rift beam is the continuous beam in a medium mount. Rift beam is a better heavy burst laser, and it is underwhelming unless the ship really needs something with more PD power than heavy burst laser. The explosions it procs can gobble up fighters.
Rift Missile Launcher I am guessing is the large missile. Not terribly practical, and not as useful as smaller Omega missiles. With only one at a time, it is practically a slow homing Sabot because you almost never catch the AI without its shields up, so that one missile is basically 6000 damage to shields. With more than one missile (from racks or Missile Spec.), player might get the chance to actually land a hit on armor or hull.
Disruptor repeater... not sure if you refer to Reality Disruptor (which is not a repeater) or Volatile Particle Driver (which is a repeater). Reality Disruptor seems more useful for the enemy to use against the player than the other way around. It is slow and non-homing, does little more than EMP whatever is in its path. Volatile Particle Driver is decent on high-tech ships. Not too useful for ballistic users because it does not count as ballistic for Heavy Ballistics Integration (you pay full 30 OP) or Ballistic Mastery (no range and damage bonuses).
Okay. You can believe all that if you want.
And the important point about the Reality Disrupter is that it deals EMP damage to all sides of the target ships, and no ship can really tolerate having shields up at all times.
Few missiles work well without ECCM, so you're better off trying them with that before calling them trash. That said, a missile that can reliably put an opposing ship into overload is actually quite good.
When I'm running sims, the best result I can get is when the opposing ships just refuse to approach the ship I've built, and the rift torpedoes are regularly on those ships.
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ECCM does not change that rift torpedoes are still slow (even if they are a bit faster from ECCM) and that standard maximum ammo is one. ECCM makes the torpedoes easier to use against agile frigates, but otherwise does not make the rift torpedoes much more effective than they already are. Simply hitting the target, shields or otherwise, with rift torpedoes is not the hard part. 6000 damage to an enemy ship's shields with capacity nearly maxed in the first place is overkill, and that results a lot of wasted damage (given the slow recharge for another shot), despite a glorious overload. If player wants to land a hit on the ship's armor/hull, he needs to shoot two at a time, overload the target another way before the torpedo hits, or somehow aim at an undefended area (like Onslaught's rear.) I suppose with an effective 300 DPS, it could act like a long-range pulse laser/autopulse substitute over time if nothing else.
Tried Reality Disruptor again.
It stinks as the only main gun. If the attacker's main gun was this, he will take longer to kill the target. Attacker needs more firepower from elsewhere or rely on other ships to kill the target. Less of a problem for a capital that may have enough other guns.
It has a slow rate of fire. Makes missing (or enemy lucky enough to be minimally affected) painful.
The sparks do not have much range from the cloud. It is rare to hit more than one ship at a time. Whatever ship the cloud is aimed at will likely be the only ship affected.
It targets and mows down missiles along the way. Does not handle huge swarms like Annihilator spam well (too many missiles) but it is good at clearing fewer but tougher missiles like Squalls. This feature is not clearly documented anywhere. Reality Disruptor kind of functions like Devastator in this way. Fighters are merely stunned. Omen in projectile form is a rather apt description.
It seems to work better in a sustained battle against a large ship with missiles, who cannot easily dodge the cloud, but tough enough to last more than a few seconds. Enough clouds to do something and clear out some of their missiles.
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You know the maximum ammo on rift torpedoes will increase with the missile skill right? 20 seconds is a long recharge time but it's pretty common for the AI to have one loaded up and continue holding fire. That's why it's a huge waste not to have either missile racks or the missile skill (or both), especially if the ship has other missile weapons.
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You know the maximum ammo on rift torpedoes will increase with the missile skill right? 20 seconds is a long recharge time but it's pretty common for the AI to have one loaded up and continue holding fire. That's why it's a huge waste not to have either missile racks or the missile skill (or both), especially if the ship has other missile weapons.
Requiring Missile Racks hurts if Rift Torpedo is the only missile on the ship, so I do not want to use it as say... an energy weapon substitute, especially on a ship with few or no other missiles. That makes Rift Torpedo effectively cost much more than 30 OP in that case. If I do use Rift Torpedo, of course I would add Missile Racks (usually as an s-mod).
As for Missile Specialization, that is not guaranteed. Five skills on human officers are not enough to get everything I want for all-rounder use. With only five skills, I need to specialize the officer for the ship.
For Combat tree, I always get Helmsmanship and Impact Mitigation for QoL purposes (ships are too sluggish for me without them). I almost always get Combat Endurance as well for QoL purposes too. That leaves two left if I limit myself to five Combat skills, and what I need varies by flagship. Most of the rest of combat skills are nice. Field Modulation for normal phase ships, Point Defense to enable ePD+IPDAI shenanigans for a wide variety of ships, Ballistics Mastery for anything (even some high-tech) with ballistics, Target Analysis for more damage, Systems Expertise for few choice ships (Gryphon, Doom, several ships with mobility ships, especially Radiant), Missile Specialization for missiles. I cannot take everything, so I take two of what I want or need most. Missile Specialization does not make the cut unless I plan to play dedicated missile boat (like Ziggurat with four AMSRMs and two Resonators).