Fractal Softworks Forum

Starsector => Suggestions => Topic started by: Ruddygreat on June 26, 2022, 06:12:20 AM

Title: The heavy mortar deserves a buff
Post by: Ruddygreat on June 26, 2022, 06:12:20 AM
(alternative post title: nerf the heavy mauler)

I've been thinking about this a bit recently & in the comparison between mauler and mortar, the mauler wins basically every time.
While I get that the mortar is meant to be the "budget" option, it's so much worse that you may as well just upgrade to a mauler - for 5 OP you gain:
while losing out on
To actually offer a "solution" to this, imo the mauler deserves a nerf & the mortar deserves a buff at the same time.
For the mauler, I'd up the op to bring it in line w/ the HVD & lower accuracy recovery (and / or max spread) + shot speed (maybe also damage per hit?), to force it into more of a bursty / opportunist role that falters under sustained firing.
For the mortar, at minimum I feel that it deserves an increase in range (to 800 or so, like the hac?), per-shot damage (to 160 or so, with a corresponding increase in flux/ shot) & maybe OP cost (to 8 or 9).
A more radical solution would be reworking the mortar into something like a medium hellbore/hephag hybrid somehow, maybe giving it a magazine could let it get away w/ having a much better hit strength? not really sure, I've not put too much throught into it ngl.
Title: Re: The heavy mortar deserves a buff
Post by: Grievous69 on June 26, 2022, 06:45:01 AM
For the quadrillionth time we just need a HE weapon that's somewhere in between. Mauler is designed to be a premium weapon and it certainly doesn't need a nerf (after it had been underwhelming for a long time). Heavy Mortar is just the cheapest available thing you get if you want HE in a medium mount (which you ideally should), at most it maybe deserves better damage per shot, and that's it. It's absurd to have 2 extremes for such an important role. Tons of ships with ballistic weapons don't have access to large mounts, so usually the role of punching through armour is given to a medium mount or two (alongside missiles). And please don't tell me the Assault Chaingun is that weapon in between, it's an SO weapon with not enough range for anything else.

There's so many nice kinetic options for mediums but for HE we have to choose between 700 and 1000 range. Even if Heavy Mortar somehow gets more range, the projectiles would be far too slow to hit anything and AI would waste a lot of flux on nothing.
Title: Re: The heavy mortar deserves a buff
Post by: SafariJohn on June 26, 2022, 07:06:03 AM
I think the gap between Mortar and Mauler exists because it reduces the number of options to deal with low tech ships.
Title: Re: The heavy mortar deserves a buff
Post by: Grievous69 on June 26, 2022, 07:11:07 AM
I think the gap between Mortar and Mauler exists because it reduces the number of options to deal with low tech ships.
I would agree if there weren't 20 types of missiles to annihilate slow moving ships. And also new laser missiles we'll be getting are a giant middle finger to a lot of ships which either don't have super long PD range and/or good shields, which is majorly low tech.

But low tech ships are in a good place now, I don't think another HE weapon would shake things up much. I am in no way saying it should have crazy stats, it could even have lower damage per shot than Mortar, just give it 800 range.
Title: Re: The heavy mortar deserves a buff
Post by: Thaago on June 26, 2022, 08:11:56 AM
For Heavy Mortar vs Heavy Mauler: they just fill completely different roles. The Mortar is a cheap, mid range, DPS weapon that deals decent armor and hull damage efficiently. The Mauler is an expensive, long range, burst anti-armor weapon that doesn't have enough sustained firepower to be very good vs hull. I'll note that the 'slightly lower' sustained firepower of the OP is 220 vs 133, a 60.45% reduction, much more than the difference in shot size is going to account for vs residual armor and even most pristine armors.

Both are imo good weapons and I don't see any reason to buff the mortar, as its already one of the best weapons in the game in its role/pricepoint.

Lets see, if I was going to theorycraft a gun between the mauler and the mortar, I'd continue the line between light assault guns and hephestus: 800 range, 80 shot size, pretty high accuracy, 240 DPS, 10 OP. 80 shot size is faster scaling (so slower firing) than either of the other 2 in the line, but 60 shot size seems too anemic for a medium HE weapon.
Title: Re: The heavy mortar deserves a buff
Post by: FooF on June 26, 2022, 09:06:15 AM
Hate to say it (for the quadrillionth time :P) but there's a reason there isn't a "middle option" for Medium HE Ballistics: Missiles. Alex went to great lengths to explain that some time back. Missiles exist in the gap of HE Ballistics (i.e. note that almost all Medium Missiles are 10 OP). A 10 OP, 800-range HE Ballistic that is also relatively accurate would be optimal almost every time. I mean, who uses the Arbalest unless they can't find a HAC?

The Mauler being a 3-shot burst was closer to what people were clamoring for in a Medium HE Ballistic, it's just that it costs 12 OP and doesn't have great overall DPS.

If it weren't for the slow shot speed, the Heavy Mortar would be the best pound-for-pound HE weapon in the game. I don't think it needs a buff. It's intended to have a drawback for being efficient, low OP, and hits at a decent damage/shot. As Grievous points out, extending its range isn't going to help because you'll just waste flux on inaccurate slots.

The only weapon that needs a buff among medium HE right now is the Assault Chaingun. With the proliferation of Low Tech bricks in the game, the low damage/shot on the ACG is woefully inadequate for the task it's supposed to perform. There was a time when it was 600 DPS and I think we could return to that now.

Alternatively, make the ACG the "middle" option. Extend it to 800 range and reduce the shots/minute to 300 (from 400). Increase damage/shot to 80 (exactly in between LAG and HAG). It drops the overall DPS (from 500 to 400) but it also makes it less flux-hungry (from 400 flux/sec to 300). After experimenting a little by adjusting the weapons.csv, I lowered the max spread from 20 to 15 because it gets ridiculously bad after a bit.

I'm not going to lie, it feels really satisfying on a Hammerhead. It's still extremely inaccurate but paired with a Heavy AC, it's like a mini version of a Mk. IX and HAG. I'd compare it to a Heavy Blaster: it's great if you can afford the flux cost but 300 flux/sec is a big ask on an Enforcer, for example.

Still, it feels maybe a bit too good to be true, especially at 10 OP, and we lost the old ACG of high damage/short range, so...we'd need another weapon.

Edit: I was experimenting when Thaago posted but how funny we came up with nearly identical solutions. :D
Title: Re: The heavy mortar deserves a buff
Post by: Grievous69 on June 26, 2022, 09:12:19 AM
I did say "alongside missiles" because I also remember Alex saying he's not a fan of adding another HE medium ballistic. But you realistically can't rely on only missiles to do the job, AI is meh with most of them and doesn't use them when it should. IIRC the biggest concern was being too good versus smaller ships at that range, and that' easily solved by tweaking accuracy and shot speed.

Don't know why you're dissing the Arbalest, it's pretty good now and I regularly use it when I want to save OP.
Title: Re: The heavy mortar deserves a buff
Post by: Megas on June 26, 2022, 09:14:08 AM
Mauler has been nerfed enough.

Mortar's main weakness is lack of range when everything else used on the ship has 800-900 range.  Otherwise, Mortar is fine.

The main problem is there the only option between Mortar and Mauler for range purposes is Light Assault Gun with Ballistic Rangefinder or ePD+IPDAI.  Not ideal, but it works if the mount is a ballistic and not a hybrid or composite.
Title: Re: The heavy mortar deserves a buff
Post by: Amoebka on June 27, 2022, 08:47:03 AM
I want an 800 range HE weapon simply because there's nothing to pair with HAC. The only way to range-match HAC is using ballistic rangefinder, and it drives me up the wall. Also, heavy mortar's sprite looks damn ugly.
Title: Re: The heavy mortar deserves a buff
Post by: Megas on June 27, 2022, 09:09:37 AM
And if I use range mods to boost LAG to get 800+ range, I have more incentive to use Railguns instead of HACs for kinetics.
Title: Re: The heavy mortar deserves a buff
Post by: Ruddygreat on June 27, 2022, 02:17:42 PM
Mauler has been nerfed enough.

(lol, it can strip an onslaught's armour in ~6 bursts (not the best comparison for the mortar but eh, the mauler will still outperform vs lower armour values))

For Heavy Mortar vs Heavy Mauler: they just fill completely different roles. The Mortar is a cheap, mid range, DPS weapon that deals decent armor and hull damage efficiently. The Mauler is an expensive, long range, burst anti-armor weapon that doesn't have enough sustained firepower to be very good vs hull. I'll note that the 'slightly lower' sustained firepower of the OP is 220 vs 133, a 60.45% reduction, much more than the difference in shot size is going to account for vs residual armor and even most pristine armors.

Both are imo good weapons and I don't see any reason to buff the mortar, as its already one of the best weapons in the game in its role/pricepoint.

Lets see, if I was going to theorycraft a gun between the mauler and the mortar, I'd continue the line between light assault guns and hephestus: 800 range, 80 shot size, pretty high accuracy, 240 DPS, 10 OP. 80 shot size is faster scaling (so slower firing) than either of the other 2 in the line, but 60 shot size seems too anemic for a medium HE weapon.

(thanks for doing the maths! ngl I didn't bother because the difference didn't feel that big! (And imo it doesn't really matter due to the hit strength difference, against high armour values it'll still fall off heavily))

As a clarification on my OP - I know that they serve different roles, it's more that the role that the mortar serves is so heavily overshadowed by the mauler's that I can't think of a valid usecase where I'd want to use the mortar over the mauler.
It's a similar case as the hepaestus & the hellbore - the hephag is theoretically pretty good, but the hellbore is so much better at what you (well, I) want from a large ballistic HE that I rarely consider it for use on the current set of vanilla ships (though some modded ships are good with it & the retribution coming next update will probably be nice with it as well)

I also don't want a new gun to be added to fill the gap (hence why I recommended reworking / buffing the mortar), it definitely feels like it's intentionally unfilled & filling it would just make the mortar an even worse option.

(hopefully this makes sense lol, I'm always awful at writing my thoughts down for the forums)
Title: Re: The heavy mortar deserves a buff
Post by: Megas on June 27, 2022, 02:59:40 PM
Mauler has been nerfed enough.
(lol, it can strip an onslaught's armour in ~6 bursts (not the best comparison for the mortar but eh, the mauler will still outperform vs lower armour values))
Mauler has lost DPS over releases.  It also has that new burst fire, which is annoying when I want suppression, but it is the only option available with more than 700 range and cannot use anything better.

I also don't want a new gun to be added to fill the gap (hence why I recommended reworking / buffing the mortar), it definitely feels like it's intentionally unfilled & filling it would just make the mortar an even worse option.
Mortar is quite strong for 7 OP.  If it was any stronger, it probably would need to cost more OP and maybe kicked out of the Open Market for being too good.  Mortar is better than Assault Chaingun was when the chaingun had 700 range years ago.  Worse efficiency, costs 10 OP, and less DPS (about 200-something).

It's a similar case as the hepaestus & the hellbore - the hephag is theoretically pretty good, but the hellbore is so much better at what you (well, I) want from a large ballistic HE that I rarely consider it for use on the current set of vanilla ships (though some modded ships are good with it & the retribution coming next update will probably be nice with it as well)
The main problems with Hephaestus are flux cost and competition from Mjolnir.  It costs too much flux for budget or frugal loadouts.  Any loadout where I could support Hephaestus can probably support Mjolnir instead with slight modifications, and Mjolnir is a better weapon.  The only time I use Hephaestus is when I want to use Mjolnir but do not have one yet.  If Hephaestus had a bit less DPS and better efficiency (so that its flux/sec does not exceed Mark IX), I would use it more.

Hellbore is simply the cheap and effective option.
Title: Re: The heavy mortar deserves a buff
Post by: Thaago on June 27, 2022, 05:57:17 PM
The reason you use a mortar over a mauler is to kill things quickly and efficiently: many targets have lots of hull that needs to be chewed through, and 220 penetration is enough for that job. It also kills medium armor (destroyer to light cruiser grade) fast enough that its perfectly good as a primary anti-armor weapon in that weight range. Also, you save 5 OP per weapon.

As long as you can mitigate the mortar's downsides (horrible recoil, poor shot speed, poor range) its base stats are really darn good. Typically it takes some hullmods to help, or a ship really well suited to them like the Hammerhead.
Title: Re: The heavy mortar deserves a buff
Post by: BigBrainEnergy on June 27, 2022, 06:04:41 PM
If we're talking about the hammerhead, then the best dps setup you're realistically gonna get is double railgun double mortar. Mauler works fine if you pair it with an hvd but then you're sacrificing a lot of damage for range. Putting mortars in hardpoints and picking up elite ballistic mastery goes a long way to improving its hit rate.
Title: Re: The heavy mortar deserves a buff
Post by: Draba on July 02, 2022, 03:44:35 AM
I think heavy mortar is mostly fine, the one thing I miss is a ballistic HE option between 450 and 1000 range with a decent projectile speed.
That could be mortar, a ~20-25% projectile speed increase probably wouldn't make it too strong (still inaccurate).
Would make its use a bit broader.

I mean, who uses the Arbalest unless they can't find a HAC?
The arbalest is really good now, less accurate/more efficient railgun with double the hit strength.
Play arund with it, you'll be surprised how much hull damage it does on top of being a standard kinetic gun.

It's a similar case as the hepaestus & the hellbore - the hephag is theoretically pretty good, but the hellbore is so much better at what you (well, I) want from a large ballistic HE that I rarely consider it for use on the current set of vanilla ships (though some modded ships are good with it & the retribution coming next update will probably be nice with it as well)
The main problems with Hephaestus are flux cost and competition from Mjolnir.  It costs too much flux for budget or frugal loadouts.  Any loadout where I could support Hephaestus can probably support Mjolnir instead with slight modifications, and Mjolnir is a better weapon.  The only time I use Hephaestus is when I want to use Mjolnir but do not have one yet.  If Hephaestus had a bit less DPS and better efficiency (so that its flux/sec does not exceed Mark IX), I would use it more.
Hellbor is very slow turning, very low projectile speed, low DPS.
Extremely good at cracking medium-heavy armor, but a completely different use case.

Same for mjollnir, 667 flux/sec for 533 energy DPS vs 480 for 480 HE.
Mjollnir is good for ships with better flux stats/fewer mounts to get kinetic from.
Since strippign armor takes longer in this version I think the heph is a good general weapon for ships with enough mounts, IMO the main competition is devastator.
Devastator is usually worse for general use, but the burst is really nasty at close-medium range and it also functions as turbo-PD.
Title: Re: The heavy mortar deserves a buff
Post by: Megas on July 02, 2022, 06:05:52 AM
I mean, who uses the Arbalest unless they can't find a HAC?
The arbalest is really good now, less accurate/more efficient railgun with double the hit strength.
Play arund with it, you'll be surprised how much hull damage it does on top of being a standard kinetic gun.
Arbalest is good.  The biggest problem with it is does not get all the nice boosts small kinetics can get from skills and hullmods.  If Arbalest could get all of the boosts small weapons can get, I would use it more.

Hellbor is very slow turning, very low projectile speed, low DPS.
Extremely good at cracking medium-heavy armor, but a completely different use case.

Same for mjollnir, 667 flux/sec for 533 energy DPS vs 480 for 480 HE.
Mjollnir is good for ships with better flux stats/fewer mounts to get kinetic from.
Since strippign armor takes longer in this version I think the heph is a good general weapon for ships with enough mounts, IMO the main competition is devastator.
Devastator is usually worse for general use, but the burst is really nasty at close-medium range and it also functions as turbo-PD.
We use HE mostly for armor cracking.  Otherwise, we would use more kinetics than we already do to win flux wars faster.

Mjolnir is more accurate than Hephaestus.  Also knocks out their weapons more easily.  Yes, Mjolnir is not as much anti-armor, but it has enough to be acceptable.

Devastator does not have enough range and accuracy to snipe effectively with other 900 range weapons.  It is no good as a Hellbore or Hephaestus substitute.  It has its uses, but sniping is not one of them.
Title: Re: The heavy mortar deserves a buff
Post by: Draba on July 02, 2022, 04:35:41 PM
Devastator is usually worse for general use, but the burst is really nasty at close-medium range and it also functions as turbo-PD.
We use HE mostly for armor cracking.  Otherwise, we would use more kinetics than we already do to win flux wars faster.

Mjolnir is more accurate than Hephaestus.  Also knocks out their weapons more easily.  Yes, Mjolnir is not as much anti-armor, but it has enough to be acceptable.
You focus on a relatively minor difference and handwave away the actual one, that looks a bit silly. Mjollnir's main advantage is energy being better against shields, not accuracy.
In that vein Heph has ~2.7x the base efficiency of Mjollnir against armor (including OP diff in vents). Yes, it doesn't have as much accuracy/hit strength, but it has enough to be acceptable.

Devastator does not have enough range and accuracy to snipe effectively with other 900 range weapons.  It is no good as a Hellbore or Hephaestus substitute.  It has its uses, but sniping is not one of them.
If you read what you quoted you'll see that the word "sniping" is not in there. What it actually says is devastator rules at low-mid range, but is usually a worse generic weapon.
With the elite PD range bonus it actually has a longer range than 900 kinetics, and skill+armored mounts give it noticeable damage in standoffs though
Title: Re: The heavy mortar deserves a buff
Post by: Megas on July 02, 2022, 05:37:09 PM
You focus on a relatively minor difference and handwave away the actual one, that looks a bit silly. Mjollnir's main advantage is energy being better against shields, not accuracy.
In that vein Heph has ~2.7x the base efficiency of Mjollnir against armor (including OP diff in vents). Yes, it doesn't have as much accuracy/hit strength, but it has enough to be acceptable.
I thought I did not need to spell Mjolnir's better-against-shields out (which I almost did but ultimately decided not to on the last post), but yes, Mjolnir does that, and it better for the extra flux cost.  Without Rangefinder, slots to fit weapons with enough range are generally too limited.  (And, yes, you pointed out slots.)

With the elite PD range bonus it actually has a longer range than 900 kinetics, and skill+armored mounts give it noticeable damage in standoffs though
Okay, after testing ePD+Devastator, having ePD and enough recoil reduction puts enough shots close to competitors' ranges to work as you say.  Kind of feels like a variant HE Volatile Particle Driver.  Without ePD, Devastator does not pump enough shots at long enough ranges to compete with other heavy HE.

When I use Hellbore, Hephaestus, or Mjolnir for anti-armor, I need the range, often to match complimenting Mark IX or range-boosted light kinetics.  If short range was not a concern, then of course Devastator without ePD would be an option.
Title: Re: The heavy mortar deserves a buff
Post by: Delta_of_Isaire on July 03, 2022, 11:15:13 AM
It all comes down to weapon range. 700 range is not bad for a cheap weapon, but the lack of options to boost that range is what kills the viability of the Mortar, and IMHO the Arbalest and Thumper as well.

Ballistic Rangefinder pushes small weapons to 800 / 900 range. That matches the HAC: 800 unboosted and 900 with rangefinder + large mounts on the ship. In contrast, the Mortar, Arbalest and Thumper are stuck at 700 / 800 range.

The solution is simple: let Ballistic Rangefinder boost medium weapons the same amount as small weapons, up to the existing maxima of 800 and 900. In other words, 700 > 800 range on ships without large mounts, and 700 > 900 on ships with large mounts.

Title: Re: The heavy mortar deserves a buff
Post by: Megas on July 03, 2022, 12:38:21 PM
It all comes down to weapon range. 700 range is not bad for a cheap weapon, but the lack of options to boost that range is what kills the viability of the Mortar, and IMHO the Arbalest and Thumper as well.
Heavy Needler too, for ballistic ships.  This is part of the pain trying to give Eagle a satisfying loadout.
Title: Re: The heavy mortar deserves a buff
Post by: Grievous69 on July 03, 2022, 11:03:14 PM
It all comes down to weapon range. 700 range is not bad for a cheap weapon, but the lack of options to boost that range is what kills the viability of the Mortar, and IMHO the Arbalest and Thumper as well.
How do you mean lack of options? To boost those weapons you have access to ITU, Ballistic rangefinder, Gunnery implants and Ballistic mastery. And all of that stacks. And all of those 3 weapons are viable (hell I never touched 2 of them before the current patch), the point of the OP is the lack of a medium range option, albeit disguised in a weapon buff. It's not weird to feel that one weapon seems bad when you have only 2 points of comparison. But it doesn't feel right to buff a weapon and make it more expensive when it already has a defined role. I know I've been repeating myself a bit but I'm willing to die on this hill, we need a 800 range HE weapon.
Title: Re: The heavy mortar deserves a buff
Post by: Candesce on July 04, 2022, 05:29:50 AM
I know I've been repeating myself a bit but I'm willing to die on this hill, we need a 800 range HE weapon.
I wonder if the lack of an 800 range HE weapon is a balancing point for the HAC.
Title: Re: The heavy mortar deserves a buff
Post by: Delta_of_Isaire on July 04, 2022, 06:13:10 AM
It all comes down to weapon range. 700 range is not bad for a cheap weapon, but the lack of options to boost that range is what kills the viability of the Mortar, and IMHO the Arbalest and Thumper as well.
How do you mean lack of options? To boost those weapons you have access to ITU, Ballistic rangefinder, Gunnery implants and Ballistic mastery. And all of that stacks. And all of those 3 weapons are viable (hell I never touched 2 of them before the current patch), the point of the OP is the lack of a medium range option, albeit disguised in a weapon buff. It's not weird to feel that one weapon seems bad when you have only 2 points of comparison. But it doesn't feel right to buff a weapon and make it more expensive when it already has a defined role. I know I've been repeating myself a bit but I'm willing to die on this hill, we need a 800 range HE weapon.
Oh we definitely need an 800 range HE weapon. The point I was trying to make is that the Heavy Mortar could be that weapon if ballistic rangefinder would buff its range to 800 on ships without large ballistic mounts (and to 900 on ships with such mounts). When I said lack of options for range boosts I meant that (1) heavy mortar does not benefit from IPDAI + Elite Point Defense like small ballistics, and (2) receives less range buff from ballistic rangefinder compared to small ballistics.
Title: Re: The heavy mortar deserves a buff
Post by: Draba on July 04, 2022, 06:18:23 AM
It all comes down to weapon range. 700 range is not bad for a cheap weapon, but the lack of options to boost that range is what kills the viability of the Mortar, and IMHO the Arbalest and Thumper as well.

Ballistic Rangefinder pushes small weapons to 800 / 900 range. That matches the HAC: 800 unboosted and 900 with rangefinder + large mounts on the ship. In contrast, the Mortar, Arbalest and Thumper are stuck at 700 / 800 range.

The solution is simple: let Ballistic Rangefinder boost medium weapons the same amount as small weapons, up to the existing maxima of 800 and 900. In other words, 700 > 800 range on ships without large mounts, and 700 > 900 on ships with large mounts.
Making weapon ranges uniform would be pretty boring IMO, it's perfectly fine to have 700 base mounts as long as their stats/usability are good enough.
Ballistic rangefinder change wouldn't help too much, you add a hefty OP tax to a budget weapon (and only benefit ships with relatively high amount of mounts to spread the cost).
Heavy mortar is good at what it does, just not many ships have a mount/flux/speed combo for it to be a good fit.
I like mortar on Enforcer and maybe Hammerhead/Brawler, but not much else.

Keep in mind that both ballistic rangefinder and IPDAI+elite PD are pretty hefty taxes, don't think they are worth it for many ships so shouldn't be considered the baseline.
Title: Re: The heavy mortar deserves a buff
Post by: Megas on July 04, 2022, 07:00:44 AM
How do you mean lack of options? To boost those weapons you have access to ITU, Ballistic rangefinder, Gunnery implants and Ballistic mastery. And all of that stacks. And all of those 3 weapons are viable (hell I never touched 2 of them before the current patch), the point of the OP is the lack of a medium range option, albeit disguised in a weapon buff. It's not weird to feel that one weapon seems bad when you have only 2 points of comparison. But it doesn't feel right to buff a weapon and make it more expensive when it already has a defined role. I know I've been repeating myself a bit but I'm willing to die on this hill, we need a 800 range HE weapon.
Ballistic Mastery does not work on medium weapons if the ship does not have a heavy ballistic mount.  Even if the ship has a heavy mount, their (700) range is boosted to 800, while LAG and most light kinetics (and HAC) are now 900.

IPDAI is not an option for medium weapons.

ITU, Gunnery Implants, and Ballistic Mastery work on everything ballistic, so they do not count when comparing weapons, or if they did, is a favor to weapons with longer base range.

I would like an 800 range HE.  Using Ballistic Rangefinder or IPDAI+ePD on LAG is awkward.
Title: Re: The heavy mortar deserves a buff
Post by: Brainwright on July 04, 2022, 09:03:16 AM
Personally, I'd go for a recoilless rifle composite small weapon.  Limited ammo.  Give it whatever range you want.

Gives an HE option for ships that normally don't have good ones.

The problem with the mortar right now is the value of med mounts.  The weapon is fine.  We just need something better than the light assault gun and light mortar, which are kinda terrible.
Title: Re: The heavy mortar deserves a buff
Post by: Hatter on July 04, 2022, 09:46:17 AM
I'll note that the 'slightly lower' sustained firepower of the OP is 220 vs 133, a 60.45% reduction, much more than the difference in shot size is going to account for vs residual armor and even most pristine armors.
Nitpick: it's not a 60% reduction, it's the Mauler having 60% of the DPS of a the Heavy Mortar, which is a 40% reduction in DPS.

Mauler would deal more DPS against armor values of >1595. The only ships that have that much armor are the Dominator (XIV), Legion (XIV) and both Onslaughts, discounting armor increasing hull mods. However, the 85% reduction cap comes into play before that, with the Heavy Mortar hitting it at ~1247 armor. At that amount of armor the Heavy Mortar is dealing 15% of its damage, while the Mauler is dealing 24%. It's 33 vs 32.3 DPS in favor of the Heavy Mortar. Increasing armor doesn't help, because the Heavy Mortar can't have its damage reduced any more while the Mauler can still lose DPS vs heavier armor.

In terms of pure spherical-void anti-armor DPS under the current armor mechanics the Heavy Mortar will always outperform the Mauler.
Title: Re: The heavy mortar deserves a buff
Post by: Thaago on July 04, 2022, 10:43:38 AM
Right you are! Thanks for doing the math out, I hadn't realized that the heavy mortar always did more total DPS than the heavy mauler no matter the armor value.

Re: an 800 range HE weapons: We don't need one because there's no design need for weapons to range match. It would be nice for there to be a mid grade option though, a reliable 10 OP HE weapon with decent accuracy akin to a scaled up LAG. I wouldn't care if it were 700 or 800 range but something accurate enough to target mobile ships and hit the same spot of armor twice would be nice.
Title: Re: The heavy mortar deserves a buff
Post by: Grievous69 on July 04, 2022, 11:01:16 AM
Re: an 800 range HE weapons: We don't need one because there's no design need for weapons to range match.
So why does the rest of the game work like that? The only other weapon that doesn't have a range companion (that I can think of) is the Gauss Cannon, and that's an elite sniper weapon used in niche builds. Heavy Autocannon is such a basic medium weapon that it's weird it doesn't have a HE friend. Medium ballistics in general have such specialised HE guns it really feels to me there's something missing. And before anyone again mentions "you have missiles to fill that role", I'll point out the energy weapons that have a lot of anti armour options in medium mounts.

But you do bring up another good point for a new weapon. Currently the only reliable medium HE is the Mauler, and that's an elite weapon. Feels wrong.
Title: Re: The heavy mortar deserves a buff
Post by: Megas on July 04, 2022, 11:33:37 AM
So why does the rest of the game work like that? The only other weapon that doesn't have a range companion (that I can think of) is the Gauss Cannon, and that's an elite sniper weapon used in niche builds.
Not to mention the hit strength of Gauss is high enough to damage armor of almost any ship, despite kinetic and reduced DPS vs. armor.

But you do bring up another good point for a new weapon. Currently the only reliable medium HE is the Mauler, and that's an elite weapon. Feels wrong.
And Mauler now has a long reload delay since it was turned into a burst-fire strike weapon.  Either we have a slow weapon with less range (Mortar) or a strike weapon that takes too long to reload (Mauler).  Because of these annoyances, I have taken LAG occasionally when range-boosting was a good idea for the ship despite low hit strength (and armor penetration).
Title: Re: The heavy mortar deserves a buff
Post by: Draba on July 04, 2022, 12:14:57 PM
It would be nice for there to be a mid grade option though, a reliable 10 OP HE weapon with decent accuracy akin to a scaled up LAG. I wouldn't care if it were 700 or 800 range but something accurate enough to target mobile ships and hit the same spot of armor twice would be nice.
But you do bring up another good point for a new weapon. Currently the only reliable medium HE is the Mauler, and that's an elite weapon. Feels wrong.
That's my only gripe, no efficient turreted M option against flanking agile enemies.

Medium ballistics in general have such specialised HE guns it really feels to me there's something missing. And before anyone again mentions "you have missiles to fill that role", I'll point out the energy weapons that have a lot of anti armour options in medium mounts.
Not that many, M energy has phase lance and heavy blaster(+mining blaster, if you are feeling generous).
Title: Re: The heavy mortar deserves a buff
Post by: Candesce on July 04, 2022, 12:55:59 PM
Not that many, M energy has phase lance and heavy blaster(+mining blaster, if you are feeling generous).
Heavy Burst Laser, if you're feeling really generous.

It does have 250 hitstrength, more than the Heavy Mortar. Just... not much DPS.
Title: Re: The heavy mortar deserves a buff
Post by: SCC on July 06, 2022, 09:52:17 AM
I can't wait for that quadruple LAG from a mod to become canon.

I would agree if there weren't 20 types of missiles to annihilate slow moving ships.
[...]
But low tech ships are in a good place now
lol