I think the consensus is the Eagle is master of none without actually being a jack of all trades. Just not a good ship with no clear identity to it—it either loses the flux war or takes forever to actually kill anything.
Perhaps when the current in-dev patch comes out and we get ahold of those new IR Burst Laser weapons...
Let's say the center Medium Ballistic was a Hybrid and the 2 lateral Medium Energies were Synergy, you could throw 3 Medium Missiles on there and have a pretty balanced Cruiser. It wouldn't do anything better than the other Cruisers but it would perhaps have the most flexibility (especially with all the new Missiles coming out). Heck, throw a single-flight deck on there and it really would be a jack-of-all-trades.Turning the medium energy into synergy means Eagle cannot use small energy (beams) in them. Also, turning hardpoint into synergy means it cannot use small ballistics in it.
Eagle also got 75 more dissipation, which is actually big, that's almost 8 vents given for free. But I disagree that it needs more missile firepower, the whole thing about the ship (and Falcon) is that they only have some token missile mounts, while focusing on the ballistic + energy combo. There's already tons of missile mounts across the ship roster (kinda feels like missile creep tbh), I think we need to wait for the new weapons to arrive, and then see how the Eagle/Falcon performs.
But I honestly think things are fine right now, not every ship needs to be an assassin.
Also, I'm curious why you think the new fragmentation beams will meaningfully help. I can't imagine it'll be anywhere that can contribute noticeably to shield/armor damage. In which case we'd still be trying to split anti-shield/armor across the 3 available ballistics.Not to mention that if the autolances turn out to be effective, then they become the no-brainer choice. If the autolances are not effective enough, then the status quo remains, which is Eagle weak compared to its competitors.
I honestly just want 2 (or even just 1) of the front small energies to be hybrid/ballistic. Being able mount one more small needler or a dlmg would go a long way for skirmish and SO builds respectively.That will require ePD+IPDAI to give 700 range ballistics in hybrid mounts enough range. (Ballistic Rangefinder does not work on hybrid mounts.) I would not want the mount changed to ballistics because burst PDs in the small mounts are useful. Also, ePD+IPDAI Ion Cannons and IR PLs are useful... for Falcon that is fast enough, but Eagle is too slow for this.
That being said, I'm not so confident the apogee deserves to be lower than other cruisers when it has fantastic flux stats, a large energy and large missile, as well as some free logistics hullmods. Oh, and 360 shield with 0.7 efficiency. The only thing it doesn't have is a decent ship system. I'm fine leaving it where it is but I'd understand if it were bumped up to 20.I think Apogee should be worth 20 DP, but I am fine with it being 18.
I honestly just want 2 (or even just 1) of the front small energies to be hybrid/ballistic. Being able mount one more small needler or a dlmg would go a long way for skirmish and SO builds respectively.That will require ePD+IPDAI to give 700 range ballistics in hybrid mounts enough range. (Ballistic Rangefinder does not work on hybrid mounts.) I would not want the mount changed to ballistics because burst PDs in the small mounts are useful. Also, ePD+IPDAI Ion Cannons and IR PLs are useful... for Falcon that is fast enough, but Eagle is too slow for this.
Drop the eagle and fury by 2 DP, and raise the eradicator by 2 DP. Given that the standard cruiser price is 20 DP I can pretty confidently say the eagle is not above the power level of standard priced cruisers. The eradicator is definitely above the standard power level, and there's no way a fury is worth more than an apogee.
That being said, I'm not so confident the apogee deserves to be lower than other cruisers when it has fantastic flux stats, a large energy and large missile, as well as some free logistics hullmods. Oh, and 360 shield with 0.7 efficiency. The only thing it doesn't have is a decent ship system. I'm fine leaving it where it is but I'd understand if it were bumped up to 20.
I've thought the Apogee needs to be nerfed for a bit now- primarily because every time I fight them they drive me up the wall. They're a civilian ship and have no right being so tanky. I've got a custom mod I run that edits a few ship stats (like turning Claws into drone wings) and one of the things I do in that is nerf Apogee flux capacity and shield flux to 0.8 or maybe 0.9 (which the latter is maybe extreme combined with the capacity nerf but boy was I tired of fighting them at the time lol)It's not really a civilian ship at all, though. It's the sector's equivalent of the Starship Enterprise. I could see the case for maybe cutting the armor a bit more on account of hot much *soft stuff* (fuel, cargo capacity, sensors) it's got packed into that hull, but Apogees do pop pretty fast when you point a big capital ship at them.
I've thought the Apogee needs to be nerfed for a bit now- primarily because every time I fight them they drive me up the wall. They're a civilian ship and have no right being so tanky. I've got a custom mod I run that edits a few ship stats (like turning Claws into drone wings) and one of the things I do in that is nerf Apogee flux capacity and shield flux to 0.8 or maybe 0.9 (which the latter is maybe extreme combined with the capacity nerf but boy was I tired of fighting them at the time lol)I doubt the kinetic blaster will have enough range to matter. 600 range kills all of the powerful energy options for Eagle. Even Advanced Optics on Phase Lances is not quite enough range. Even if range was not a consideration, its flux/sec might (400 I think).
Oh, and people seem to be forgetting there's more than just the fragmentation energy being added next patch: there's the kinetic-dmg medium energy mount from the Sindrian Diktat special reserve as well, and depending on its stat lineup (namely, range) that could change Eagle quite a lot.
I do agree that there's been some power creep, though. The eagle used to be a very solid ship and while gameplay changes have also had an effect on that it isn't the overarching factor for its fall from grace. At least, not from my point of view. It's pretty alright to me to have an average of average vessel, though. Feels like a lot of the cruisers stray from that line into either heavy or light territory so it's nice to have something properly in the middle.
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For energy weapons to matter on Eagle (without SO), they need to have long enough range to end near where 700-800 range ballistic end.
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But... from given info, Kinetic blasters are only available from drops from Lion's Guard Executors.
This I disagree with because I don't very much value range matching/max range kiting, but it is a problem for Eagles when they are trying to hunt down fleeing enemies, making the energy mounts more of a defensive emplacement. Good versus swarming enemies, good vs ordos/remnants, good vs capitals because the Eagle can just close the distance anyways if its going to use its flux for non-kinetic damage. Bad vs lone destroyers the Eagle is trying to hunt, bad vs peer cruisers that its trying to duel and can't get close enough to (though its part of the player's job to make duels not happen).
The blog post states "On the Diktat's midline ships,...", plural. So unless I missed something in the discussion thread, I expect we'll be able to loot KBs from LG fleets in general.I already asked this in the blog post thread and Alex said only Executors will drop the 2 unique weapons. Diktat ships all have normal weapons, it's the Lion's Guard fleets that can have unique weapons, and even there I was suggesting other ships in the fleet have Kinetic Blasters, and not just the Executor.
I already asked this in the blog post thread and Alex said only Executors will drop the 2 unique weapons. Diktat ships all have normal weapons, it's the Lion's Guard fleets that can have unique weapons, and even there I was suggesting other ships in the fleet have Kinetic Blasters, and not just the Executor.That's a shame. Seems like smaller midline ships would do so comically badly with the KBs that Alex doesn't want them together.
But more importantly, why do you feel Eagles are outclassed by Furies? I'd argue Fury is the one with bloated DP cost.Eagles are outclassed by Furies at swarming in my experience, as the latter are far more agile, have leaner profiles and do have kill potential (having a medium missile at prow and being able to utilize stuff like Heavy Blaster has something to do with that). I shouldn't have mentioned Furies though because I wanted to emphasize how Eagle is outclassed in its own tech school. I feel like bloated DP cost is somewhat given on a high-tech hull anyway.
Ahaa, that makes sense. I agree then, Eagles tend to have trouble concentrating fire well and catching up to things they can threaten.
If the Falcon is considered good then it's not an issue with mounts since the Eagle has the same deal but more. The problem lies in the ship roster surrounding them. Falcon for its peers (14 DP) has very competitive stats and mounts, meaning it can be a nice pick for your fleet depending on what you need. Eagle tries to operate in the same role but that role doesn't really work in practice. I always forget Eagle is just 5 su faster than a Conquest! So if it's supposed to be a faster than average ship with mediocre firepower, why isn't it faster? Maneuvering jets isn't even something special nowadays since every other ship has a mobility system (same thing with upcoming blog post ships).
I suppose a speed buff would work in the Eagle’s favor more than other options. I’ve said for awhile that the Eagle lost its perch (ha) to the Champion early on. And while the Dominator was also the odd one out for awhile, it’s now very competitive because of its improved hull/armor.
I still stand by the single fighter bay addition. That’s something no other line cruiser would have, adds to the generalist feel, and mitigates some of the speed/lack of missile issues we’re discussing.I suppose it makes sense for Eagle to be the middle of the midline pack and enable the school's many cannons. The fighter bay sounds like a good idea on paper considering Eagle is leaning support anyway and carrying interceptors would complement that nicely. Not to mention that if a simple CH actually does work as a missile substitute for many slower ships, I don't see why a regular hangar shouldn't work for Eagle and give it some versatility.
The Eagle did receive some tweaks but the meta game moved past it.Never understood the point of talking about metagame in a single player sandbox rpg, but I guess it makes for a good reference point
Isn't that a good thing some ships are more focused on other types of dealing damage rather than missile spam?Unfortunately, Eagle is not it. Eagle is not focused at dealing other damage very well either. It does not have the ballistic firepower (range and/or DPS) of Dominator and possibly Eradicator, and it does not have the speed to use smaller non-beam energy weapons like Fury or Aurora. The one role Eagle seems to be built for is long-range beam support, which is not a useful role against superior opponents.
Unfortunately, Eagle is not it. Eagle is not focused at dealing other damage very well either. It does not have the ballistic firepower (range and/or DPS) of Dominator and possibly Eradicator, and it does not have the speed to use smaller non-beam energy weapons like Fury or Aurora. The one role Eagle seems to be built for is long-range beam support, which is not a useful role against superior opponents.Then again if you buff Eagle to be able to punch up, it will end up taking another hull's niche. I can see Aurora and Champion sweating in their seats with this approach, next patch we'd probably be talking either of them needing a buff. I don't think a hull needs to punch up to be considered in one's roster. We forgot to mention the creep in the room, by the way; it's first name is power, and it seems to dress in missiles right now.
Then again if you buff Eagle to be able to punch up, it will end up taking another hull's niche.Seeing that Eagle is currently overshadowed by most if not everyone else of its weight class or DP cost, I do not agree with this. Right now, most cruisers can either punch up or use speed to catch enemies. Eagle does not have either. It can snipe, but that is not powerful enough.
See, this is where you're starting a 'Red Queen race' between different hulls, with the winner being the power creep, potentially forcing you into nerf nukes. It makes sense in the game's current state, where the community's goalpost is fighting multiple groups of high-end [REDACTED] at once. I'm just not really sure it's the same goalpost Alex intends for the would-be newbies once the game is finally released. I see cruisers as a checkpoint, a single cruiser being a prized flagship for the usual midgame player after they finally got together enough resources to play with the big guns. At the same time, cruisers are a baseline for the lategame, serving vital functions in your composition alongside capitals. It is possible to put all the eggs into the second basket, but chances are you're going to miss someone's fantasy of owning the baddie that's decimating their destroyer fleets when they bite off more than they can chew.QuoteThen again if you buff Eagle to be able to punch up, it will end up taking another hull's niche.Seeing that Eagle is currently overshadowed by most if not everyone else of its weight class or DP cost, I do not agree with this. Right now, most cruisers can either punch up or use speed to catch enemies. Eagle does not have either. It can snipe, but that is not powerful enough.
Against superior endgame opponents when player only has 160-200 DP to the enemy's 240 DP and superior officer power, ships do need to punch up.
It is easier to buff Eagle than to nerf several cruisers, although some cruisers might need a nerf anyway.
Well if you consider all the late game challenges (I'm scared to even think what we'll fight in the actual end game once it's done), then I'd say the cruisers are nicely balanced. We had a period where frigates were underpowered, and that has been solved now. I genuinely think the balance currently is the best it has ever been (coming from me playing the game for 8 years I think).As a game design geek, I don't even know why balance would be something to discuss in Starsector. The actual problem with Eagle is that it isn't fun right now, when it very easily could be if it was given a niche to shine in.
To put things into perspective, not every ship needs to be a Tempest, a secret weapon for the skilled player to use for the rest of the game. A Shrike can be cool, too. Even if you grow past its flashy, but short-lived tendencies. By the way, Dominator, Apogee and the regular Falcon are all cruisers that don't punch up, albeit for different reasons. Dominator is a raidboss for midgame fleets, but also a brick to be sacrificed lategame. Apogee is a semi-civilian ship that's meant to fulfill trekkies' fantasies of piloting SS Enterprise, doubling as a support. Falcon is a nimble support that's shepherding enemy destroyers and pressuring cruisers for the bigger guys to finish the job. As long as Champion, Phalcon, Gryphon, Heron all punch up, even as specialists, I don't see a reason why midline can't get another ship to punch down.Dominator can punch up. It can have superb long-range ballistic firepower (more than Eagle can pack) and missile spam in critical moments. Dominator is also a brick and one of the few good options for Shield Shunt.
We had a period where frigates were underpowered, and that has been solved now.As a whole, perhaps. Some individual frigates can use some help. Wolf's flux stats are terrible (barely better than other 4-5 DP frigates with ballistics), and Vanguard is too expensive for crash-test dummy gameplay.
As a game design geek, I don't even know why balance would be something to discuss in Starsector. The actual problem with Eagle is that it isn't fun right now, when it very easily could be if it was given a niche to shine in.You kinda answered it with your second part of the post. If something is performing sub par, it's likely that it won't be fun to play with. Likewise if something is too good then it sucks the fun out of the game as it present itself as an obvious choice. Single player games need good balance too, don't know why that seems to be somewhat put aside in some cases. Played plenty of good games with great mechanics, but balance killed the enjoyment for me. Variety makes for fun and meaningful gameplay.
Well if you consider all the late game challenges (I'm scared to even think what we'll fight in the actual end game once it's done), then I'd say the cruisers are nicely balanced. We had a period where frigates were underpowered, and that has been solved now. I genuinely think the balance currently is the best it has ever been (coming from me playing the game for 8 years I think).This version held me longer than any other previously and got around the entire roster a few times over.
See, this is where you're starting a 'Red Queen race' between different hulls, with the winner being the power creep, potentially forcing you into nerf nukes.When you have a single strong outlier, nerf it. When you have a single weak outlier, buff it.
By the way, Dominator, Apogee and the regular Falcon are all cruisers that don't punch up, albeit for different reasons.Dominator can punch up really well, and when it gets a nice fat target the main downside (clumsy with 2 fixed hard mounts) doesn't matter as much.
As a game design geek, I don't even know why balance would be something to discuss in Starsector. The actual problem with Eagle is that it isn't fun right now, when it very easily could be if it was given a niche to shine in.Having lots of varied, viable fleet compositions is part of what makes Starsector interesting IMO.
Apogee is cheap for a line cruiser. Plasma cannon and large missile is a good assault package. It has been nerfed at least twice (lost sensor drones that extended range, lost shield efficiency) since Starfarer, and it is still fairly strong for its DP cost.To be fair its DP cost was also reduced from 25 to 18 with the nerfs.
I wouldn't add a fighter wing to Eagle because I think it would make the issue even worse: the AI would then send out its fighter wing and lose zero-flux speed meaning it wouldn't even get its ballistics in range before the enemy kited away (I also don't see the removal of them on the Brilliant as a reason to add another one back- imo it's something to be avoided)AI mostly defaulting to Engage can a problem for AI warships that need speed (like Odyssey). Also, there are not enough support fighters to prevent AI from using Engage, just pods and Xyphos.
I wouldn't add a fighter wing to Eagle because I think it would make the issue even worse: the AI would then send out its fighter wing and lose zero-flux speed meaning it wouldn't even get its ballistics in range before the enemy kited away (I also don't see the removal of them on the Brilliant as a reason to add another one back- imo it's something to be avoided)I don't see slowing down as a result of engaging with fighters as a problem if Eagle was committed to a more supportive profile of roles. We agree that a boost to its base speed wouldn't hurt. Compounded by the fact that Eagle has a mobility system, the loss of speed caused by engaging could be compensated for, assuming we give up on Eagle being a dedicated hunter.
Reading through the posts and what makes the most sense to me is either move it to 20 DP or give it Energy Bolt Coherer. A last-choice option would be 5-10u of speed since I worry about broadening the gap between the conventionally "slow" cruisers and the faster ones, especially one with the weapons profile of the Eagle.
Aurora, Doom, and Apogee have all been accused of being too powerful at various points in their life I can't recall any time where the Eagle was ever considered OP. It's always been the plumb line for "average" by which other ships are measured. The fact that the Eagle is now considered weak is a good indicator that power creep has set in, or if nothing else, ship design has evolved over the years.Yes. Once you get used to a level of power, you might conflate more power with more fun. Then again, late game enemies have also became stronger as of late.
Could always just make it a bigger Falcon. Give it 65 base speed and balance it to be around 20 DP. Still 6 more DP than a Falcon (and slower) and compared to the Fury it has 25 less speed and less missiles while having 3 actual medium mounts more compared to the Eradicator. It wouldn't have the burst potential of the Eradicator's AAF and missiles while the Fury's better for bullying destroyers and the like but it could stand as the midline 20 DP "fast cruiser". May need some tweaks to get it right but it'd give it an actual role at least.
Edit: Basically 2nd Delta's thoughts. If cruisers are roughly the 14-30 DP range and we can't change it's mounts there's not really any other options without redesigning the ship that I can think of that might work.